RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS

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RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:04 pm
  • BEWARE: Another long post by me. I’ve ranked the NFC West teams using a simple points system. Since this a NFC West ranking much of the end results means that its relative to the NFC West, however, since our division owns two of the best teams in the league (SEA and SFO), plus a fast up-and-come (RAMS), and a mysterious dark horse who many believe possess the ingredients of a quality had they had better QB play (ARI). With 2 of the more potent offensives in the NFL and 4 of the better defenses in the league, one can definitely take these rankings outside of the NFC West as well.

    I’ll start with OFFENSES:

    QUARTERBACK (#1 = 5, #2 = 4, #3 = 3, #4 = 2): Rank based on Total Depth w/ an extra 1 point given to the best starter.

    #1) SEATTLE SEAHAWKS (5.0 + .5 = 5.5 Points)
    Russell Wilson*/ Tarvaris Jackson/ Brady Quinn
    #2) SAN FRANSISCO 49ERS (4.0 + .5 = 4.5 Points)
    Colin Kaepernick*/ Colt McCoy/ Scott Tolzien/ B.J. Daniels
    #3) ST LOUIS RAMS (3.0 POINTS)
    Sam Bradford/ Kellen Clemens/ Austin Davis/ Timothy Jenkins
    #4) ARIZONA CARDINALS (2.0 POINTS)
    Carson Palmer/ Drew Stanton/ Ryan Lindley/ Caleb TurBush

    I think based on depth Seahawks have the best group of all NFC West Teams based on overall experience and starting history. One could argue McCoy over T. Jack but Jackson is coming into a situation in which he is familiar with. He is respected by his teammates, has chemistry/history with much of the players in the Seahawk’s Offense, and extensive experience in Bevell’s system while McCoy has to transition from the Browns to 49ers and replace Alex Smith. Bradford showed quality growth in 2012 but this is another season that should test him as this will be the first time in his career where he’ll be without Steven Jackson, Danny Amendola, and Brandon Gibson. A 33 year old Palmer has to make the switch from AFC to NFC as well as playing in one of, if not the best defensive divisions in the NFL behind the NFC West’s worst O-Line group.

    Which leaves the argument between Wilson and Kaepernick. I for one think Wilson is the better overall QB while Kaepernick is the better overall athlete… so I just ended up splitting the best starter point in half and giving it to each team as both Wilson and Kaepernick are productively elite in their own ways.

    RUNNINGBACKS (#1 = 5, #2 = 4, #3 = 3, #4 = 2): Rank based on Total Depth w/ an extra 1 point given to the best starter.

    #1) SEATTLE SEAHAWKS (5.0 + 1.0 = 6.0 Points)
    RB: Marshawn Lynch*/ Robert Turbin / Christine Michael/ Derrick Coleman/
    FB: Michael Robinson/ Spencer Ware
    #2) SAN FRANSISCO 49ers (4.0 Points)
    RB: Frank Gore/ Kendell Hunter/ L. James/ Anthony Dixon/ Marcus Lattimore
    FB: Bruce Miller/ Will Tukuafu
    #3) Arizona Cardinals (3.0 Points)
    RB: Rashad Mendenhall/ Ryan Williams/ Stefan Taylor/ William Powell
    RB: Alfonso Smith/ Andre Ellington
    #4) St. Louis Rams (2.0 Points)
    RB: Daryl Richardson/ Isaiah Pead/ Zac Stacy/ Chase Reynolds
    RB: Terrance Ganaway/ Eric Stevens


    Might get arguments from 9er fans but Seattle has the best RB corps overall. Lynch was also the best RB in the NFC West in 2012 and 2011. Turbin was impressive enough in a limited role as a rookie and from reports he has made improvements in developing his lower body as well as understanding the Seahawks Zone blocking scheme more. Michael was the highest RB taken in the draft out of NFC West teams and they all took at least one. Furthermore, some draftniks believed Michael had 1st round talent but was knocked down because of character risks. Robinson is not as good as a blocker as Bruce Miller but he is solid enough and is a better rusher/receiver. Spencer Ware is a swing-back with Marshawn Lynch physicality as runner with Michael Robinson versatility to be a well-rounded FB.

    While SF has a good group, very comparable at their best: Gore is 30 years old, Hunter is coming off an injury which is why I give Turbin the edge over him while they would be equal, James while limited did flash at times but isn’t the type of workhorse Turbin and Michael have the potential to be, Dixon has been under-utilized other than when Gore was injured in 2010. Lattimore likely won’t play this season. So their situation could go downhill fast which is probably why they have 10 RB/FB listed on their total roster. SF’s FB are great blockers but offer little else.

    It was hard to gauge the Rams and Cardinals as both team’s websites don’t list a FB on their roster. However, I decided it with talent Mendenhall and Williams are both 1st round picks while the Rams will need multiple young players to step-up to replace versatile and productive workhorse, Steven Jackson.

    WIDE RECEIVER: (#1 = 5, #2 = 4, #3 = 3, #4 = 2): Rank based on Total Depth w/ an extra 1 point given to the best starter.

    #1) SEATTLE SEAHAWKS (5.0 Points)
    Top 5 WR: Sidney Rice/ Percy Harvin/ Golden Tate/ Doug Baldwin/ Chris Harper
    WR: Jermaine Kearse/ Phil Bates/ Stephen Williams/ Charly Martin/ 5 Others
    #2) ARIZONA CARDINALS (4.0 + 1.0 Point = 5.0 Points)
    Top 5 WR: Larry Fitzgerald*/ Michael Floyd/ Andre Roberts/ Ryan Swope/ Jarett Dillard
    WR: LaRon Byrd/ Kerry Taylor/ Robert Gill/ 5 Other Rookies
    #3) SAN FRANSISCO 49ERS (3.0 Points)
    Top 5 WR: M. Crabtree (INJ)/ Aquan Boldin/ Mario Manningham/ A.J. Jenkins/ Quinton Patton
    WR: Ricardo Lockette/ Kyle Williams/ Kassim Osgood/ Marlon Moore/ 2 Others
    #4) ST. LOUIS RAMS (2.0 Points)
    Top 5 WR: Chris Givens/ Tavon Austin/ Austin Pettis/ Steadman Bailey/ Brian Quick
    WR: Raymond Radway/ Nick Johnson/ Andrew Helmick/ Blake Emory

    I think Seahawks should have the most formidable corps in the West. In 2012, Rice and Tate were both ranked among the best in the NFL in production and efficiency per target. Harvin is one of the most versatile dynamic play-makers in the league and has been in Bevell’s system previously. Baldwin is a quality slot WR and is very clutch. Harper leads a very young and talented cast of WRs at the backend and gives the Seahawks a Boldin-esque type WR at 6’1, 234 pounds with a 4.45 forty speed possessing long-arms and big hands.

    To put that in perspective there are 10 variables of height out of 46 WRs in the NFC West from 5’8 to 6’5 (I’ll chart the top names in WT in each HT variable):

    (2) 5’8: SFO- C. Hall, 187; ARI- C. Hawkins, 180
    (1) 5’9: STL- T. Austin, 174
    (6)5’10: SEA- G. Tate, 202; STL- S. Bailey, 193; SEA- D.Baldwin, 189
    (5)5’11: ARI- A. Roberts, 195; J.Dillard, 190
    (13)6’0: ARI- R. Swope, 205; SFO- Q. Patton, 204; SEA- B. Swain, 200; STL- K. Taylor, 200
    (6) *6’1: SEA- C. HARPER, 234*; P. Bates, 220, SFO- A Boldin, 220; M. Crabtree, 214
    (3) 6’2: SFO- R. Lockette, 211, STL- J. Brown, 205; M. Rios, 203
    (5) 6’3: ARI- M. Floyd, 225; STL- Brian Quick, 220; ARI- L. Fitzgerald, 218
    (3) 6’4: STL- LaRon Byrd, 220; D. Buckner, 215; SEA- S. Rice, 202
    (2) 6-5: SFO- K. Osgood, 220; SEA- S. Williams, 208

    3 Closest WRs relative to Harper’s HT and WT are Malcolm Floyd, Aquan Boldin, and teammate Phil Bates. Floyd has 2 inches on Harper but weighs about 10 pounds less. Both Boldin and Bates measure the same in HT but Harper has about 15 pounds on them. I know a lot of evidence to get to a minuscule point but Seahawks’ Chris Harper is in a league of his own, out of the 46 WRs in the NFL West, he might not be the tallest but he certainly by a safe margin is the biggest especially compared to the WRs in the 5’8 – 6’2 range. Seahawks continue to draft players that are physically and athletically unique to the standard. Harper in just athletic comparison is a bigger, faster, stronger version of a rookie Anquan Boldin.

    Cardinals come in at 2nd but tied for 1st because of Larry Fitzgerald. Had Crabtree not been injured I would have probably split SFO and ARI for #2. But I would take Arizona’s top 5 over Boldin, Manningham, Jenkins, Patton, and whomever. Boldin is an aging veteran and certainly isn’t the type of WR that ages well especially when he has to transition to a new team and build chemistry with a new QB, so asking him to produce like a #1 guy is going to be a long-shot, Manningham is coming off an injury. Jenkins is under heavy pressure in the wake of Crabtree’s injury and after a very unimpressive rookie year. Patton although very talented is still a rookie but I’ll at least predict he’ll be more productive than A.J. Jenkins.

    Rams come in last, had this been purely on potential they would rank higher as all of their listed WRs have 2 or less years of total experience.. Austin and Bailey have a lot of talent, they are like the rookie versions of Harvin and Baldwin but they are still rookies and have to replace two of Bradford’s favorite targets in Amendola and Gibson. Givens and Pettis are quality wideouts while Quick needs to step-up to his draft status. Down the road this could become a dangerous corps, but as of now, they need a lot of seasoning compared to the rest of WEST.

    TIGHT ENDS (#1 = 4, #2 = 3, # 3 = 2, # 1 = 1). Point reduction as 3 TEs usually make a roster with only 2 making any impact. Team with best starter gets 1.0 point bonus.

    # 1) ST. LOUIS RAMS (4.0 Points)
    TOP 3 TE: Jared Cook/ Lance Kendricks/ Zach Potter/
    TE: Phillip Lutzenkirchen/ Cory Harkey/ Mike McNiell/ Cameron Graham
    #4) ARZONA CARDINALS (3.0 Points)
    TOP 3 TE: Rob Housler/ Jeff King/ Jim Dray
    TE: Kory Sperry, Alex Gottlieb/ D.C Jefferson/ Kyle Auffray
    #3) SAN FRANSISCO 49ERS (2.0 + 1.0 = 3.0 Points)
    TOP 3 TE: Vernon Davis*/ Vance McDonald/ Garett Celek
    TE: DeMarcus Dobbs/ MarQuis Gray/ 2 others listed as Long Snappers
    #4) SEATTLE SEAHAWKS (1.0 Points)
    TOP 3 TE: Zach Miller/ Sean McGrath/ Luke Willson
    TE: Cooper Helfet/ Victor Marshall/ Darren Fells/ Anthony McCoy (I.R.)

    Call me crazy but depth and experience is why I rank Rams and Cards better than 49ers and Seahawks. The 49ers and Seahawks both have very good well-rounded starters but both are relying on a rookie and 2nd year players to make up the depth whether or not those players are talented or not. Vernon Davis lifts the 49ers to tie in 2nd place with his best starter bonus. St. Louis has the best set of TEs in the NFC W and potentially in the NFL now that Hernandez was released with Cook and Kendricks. Potter provides them an experienced and solid blocker type. Card’s TEs aren’t name sexy but they have 12 years of experience between them. Housler, the youngest, had a very good season in 2012. King and Dray look to be well-rounded role players.

    OFFENSIVE TACKLE (#1 = 5, #2= 4, #3 = 3, #4= 2): No individual bonus points for Offensive Line players. However, the best collective group in terms of experience and chemistry factors gets a 1.0 point bonus. That team of course is SAN FRANSISCO.

    3 TIED FOR #1 (5 points + 4 points + 3 points = 12 points/ 3 teams = 4 points)

    SAN FRANSISCO 49ERS (4.0 Points)
    Starters: LT -Joe Staley/ RT- Anthony Davis
    OT: Kenny Wiggins/ Luke Marquart/ Carter Bykowski
    SEATTLE SEAHAWKS (4.0 Points)
    Starters: LT- Russell Okung/ RT- Breno Giacomini
    OT: Mike Person/ Michael Bowie/ Alvin Bailey
    ST. LOUIS RAMS (4.0 Points)
    Starters: LT- Jake Long/ RT- Roger Saffold
    OT: Chris Williams, Joe Barksdale, Ty Nsekhe, Terrell Brown, Sam Hooey, Braden Brown
    ARIZONA CARDINALS (2.0)
    Starters: LT- Levi Brown/ RT- Bobby Massie
    OT: Nate Potter/ Paul Fanaika/ Joe Caprioglio/ J. Johnson-Webb

    I think San Fran and Seattle are equal at Tackle although I’m sure 49er fans would argue. I would take Okung over Staley. Davis over Giacomini. However, both teams lack experienced depth which kind of hurt them in overall rankings, however, both team have guards who can swing over if necessary.

    St. Louis had the most interesting and best depth overall. Long is a very good and premier LT. Saffold is quality and both have the potential to get better as they get to practice against not only the best D-Line in the NFC West but probably the best in the NFL which I factored into the Ram’s ranking on par with San Fran and Seattle. Cardinals of course end up in last place.

    OFFENSIVE GUARD (#1 = 5, #2= 4, #3 = 3, #4= 2)

    #1: San Fransisco 49ers (5 points)
    Starters: LG- Mike Iupati/ RG- Alex Boone
    OG: Adam Snyder, Dan Kilgore, Joe Looney, Al Netter, Wayne Tribue, Patrick Omameh
    #2 Seattle Seahawks (4 Points)
    Starters: LG- Paul McQuistan/ J.R. Sweezy
    OG: John Moffitt, Rishaw Johnson, Ryan Seymour
    #3 Arizona Cardinals (3 Points)
    Starters: LG- Jonathan Cooper/ RG- Daryn Colledge
    OG: Chilo Rachal/ Sergio Kelemete/ Earl Watford
    #4 St. Louis Rams (2 Points)
    Starters: LG- Harvey Dahl/ RG- ???? ????
    OG: Barett Jones, Shelly Smith, R. Watkins, B. Washington, Ryan Lee


    More or less self-explanatory.


    OFFENSIVE CENTER: (#1 = 4, #2 = 3, #3 = 2, #4 = 1) Reduction in points due to usually only 2 OCs making a roster with 1 making impact.

    #1 Seattle Seahawks (4 Points)
    OC: Max Unger, Lemuel Jeanpierre, Jared Smith
    #2 St. Louis Rams (3 Points)
    OC: Scott Wells, Tim Barnes, Kevin Saia
    #3 San Francisco 49ers (2 Points)
    OC: Johnathan Goodwin, Sherman Carter
    #4 Arizona Cardinals (1 Points)
    OC- Lyle Sendlein, Scott Wedige, Adam Bice

    No one is going to argue Seattle’s position or shouldn’t they have the best starter and likely the best depth at the position. And I felt the Rams have a better overall group than the 49ers as the Rams O-line improved when Wells came back from injury plus he’s been one of the premier OCs since his time with the Packers. Goodwin is also the oldest of the 4 starters, and while a quality player, he isn’t better than the first two. Arizona again is last but in years past Sendlein was a decent player.


    SEATTLE SEAHAWKS:
    BACKS RANKING: 11.5/10
    WR/TE RANKING: 6/ 9
    O-LINE RANKING: 12/14
    OVERALL: 29.5/33
    OFFENSIVE POTENCY: 89% (89.39)

    SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS:
    BACKS RANKING: 8.5/10
    WR/TE RANKING: 6/9
    O-LINE RANKING: 12/14 +1 FOR BEST O-LINE OVERALL = 13/14
    OVERALL: 27.5/33
    OFFENSIVE POTENCY: 83% (83.33)

    ST. LOUIS RAMS:
    BACKS RANKING: 5/10
    WR/TE RANKING: 6/9
    O-LINE RANKING: 9/14
    OVERALL: 20/33
    OFFENSIVE POTENCY: 60% (60.60)

    ARIZONA CARDINALS:
    BACKS RANKING: 5/10
    WR/TE RANKING: 8/9
    O-LINE RANKING: 6/14
    OVERALL: 19/33
    OFFENSIVE POTENCY: 57% (57.57)

    AVERAGE OFFENSIVE POTENCY: 73% (72.72)

    Teams under the average, the average becomes the maximum output.

    Teams over the average, the average becomes the minimum output.

    SEATTLE SEAHAWK’S OFFENSIVE POTENCY OUTPUT: 73% to 89%
    SAN FRANSISCO 49ERS OFFENSIVE POTENCY OUTPUT: 73% to 83%
    ST. LOUIS RAMS OFFENSIVE POTENCY OUTPUT: 60% to 73%
    ARIZONA CARDINALS OFFENSIVE POTENCY OUTPUT: 57% to 73%

    So at worst the Seahawks will sputter around 73% potency, while at best they could be as high as 89%.

    So for this to make any sense, over a course of 16 games at times the Seahawks at max potential could perform up to 16% better than San Fran’s offense. Relative to the Ram’s O: up to 29% better. Relative to the Card’s O, up to 32% better.

    San Fran O on the other hand have up to a 10% chance to perform better than the Seahawks’O. Vs Rams: 23%. Vs Cards: 26%.

    St. Louis has up to a 16% chance to perform better than the Cards over a course of a season. While the Cards have up to 13% chance to perform better than St. Louis offenses at times. Both teams need to be at their best and need SFO and SEA to be at their worst for their offenses to even compare.

    I think the eye test proves my analysis well as most people would agree:
    Seahawks O > 49ers O > Rams O > Cards O

    Once I get to the Defensive rankings, we will get a better gauge on head to head matchups, NFC W Offenses vs Defenses.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:26 pm
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    Informational overload. +1 for the obvious time you took on it though. I concur with the standings.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:45 pm
  • I agree with the conclusion but based on just reading the QB analysis so far I found it pretty irrelevant to bring up QB depth. You said "I think based on depth Seahawks have the best group of all NFC West Teams". While having a good backup matters a little, it matters about 1/5000 as much as who your starter is. So while I agree with your conclusion of Wilson being the best in the west, I consider kind of foolish to bring overall QB depth into the discussion. Most backups, at least on really good teams, wont play a snap all year. (Disregarding when Flynn played a couple snaps last year when we were blowing the wheels off a couple teams)

    Just a thought. Overall great work
    Last edited by therealjohncarlson on Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:56 pm
  • The stimulation I enjoyed while reading the OP was surpassed only by the satisfaction I received when my head exploded as I witnessed cartire's follow-up post.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:50 pm
  • therealjohncarlson wrote:I agree with the conclusion but based on just reading the QB analysis so far I found it pretty irrelevant to bring up QB depth. You said "I think based on depth Seahawks have the best group of all NFC West Teams". While having a good backup matters a little, it matters about 1/5000 as much as who your starter is. So while I agree with your conclusion of Wilson being the best in the west, I consider kind of foolish to bring overall QB depth into the discussion. Most backups, at least on really good teams, wont play a snap all year. (Disregarding when Flynn played a couple snaps last year when we were blowing the wheels off a couple teams)

    Just a thought. Overall great work


    It matters somewhat, back-ups still have to be prepared to play, and they do get reps in practice, I think it was Knox that said, perfect practice is what makes a team good or something along that lines.

    If QBs are struggling in practice, it doesn't help offensive chemistry and growth of players on the depth chart, and defenses aren't getting the best competition either.

    Theoretically, if Wilson and Kaepernick were injured, I expect T.Jack to perform better than C. McCoy. It matters.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:20 am
  • I don't know if a points system is ever a good way to review something, for many reasons including the one therealJC listed. A points system type mentality is the same kind of thinking that led to Russell Wilson being ranked #5 among QBs under age 25. Sometimes, a player is much more (or much less) than the sum of the parts.

    I thought your rankings were pretty good though. My only quibble so far (still reading through) would be STL at #4 for WR. I think they probably have the 2nd best WR group after us right now. If you watched Bailey, you know that he'll be at least an NFL average WR, and he could very easily be much more. In almost every way, he's a Bobby Engram (coming out of college) clone. Austin is going to be a pain in the ass and one of the biggest playmakers in the division. He'll be flawed too, but overall I kind of envision him as being the Chris Johnson of NFL WRs- explosive and productive, if a bit on the empty side. I don't really expect their WR group to amaze this season, but I like it more than SF's (especially without Crabtree) and way more than AZ's. Fitz had a miserable 2012 season and Palmer isn't a good bet to stay healthy all season, and even if he does he's playing his first year in their offense and might as well have the body of a 40 year old after everything he's been through during his NFL career. AZ's line sucks too, and that's kinda important for someone like Palmer. I think Palmer's upside is probably what he did last year in Oakland. It's going to be an ugly season for them. Outside of a possible Fitz bounce-back season, I don't see anything on that WR group that impresses me, other than Ryan Swope who may never play an NFL down at the rate things are going.

    Also, I think I would prefer to just rank the offensive line as a unit rather than by sub-position. More than any area of any area of a team, OL must play as a single unit, and it's another case where the whole might be lesser or greater than the sum of the parts.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:35 am
  • I found your TE and O-line rankings a bit off. Why the focus on depth when most of these teams would trade their entire unit for Vernon Davis? Jared Cook is far less than the sum of the parts when you watch his actual playmaking results. Zach Miller can still dominate, look at the playoffs. Depth is nice, but not a requirement. Look at Detroits receiver corps. It is as deep as a kiddie pool after megatron, but who cares? Same goes for Vernon Davis.

    I felt like the whole exercise was about proving Seattle is better than SF. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it feels like.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:44 am
  • Is Carpenter listed? I didn't notice him.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:59 am
  • Great write up, thanks for taking the time and providing thought provoking material in a time when there is nearly nothing to read about. Huge advantage for me also because I read like 1 word a minute so I will be finishing this post just in time for the first preseason game.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:05 pm
  • I still think that it comes down to Seattle and SF, that the other two are not in the same league quite yet. Within that, I also don't feel the Hawks have a clear advantage over SF anywhere outside of the secondary. On the flipside, I don't see a clear advantage for SF outside of the defensive front and O-line.

    Every other aspect of the teams could be argued for the entire off season. So much is similar between the two. Even the fans are equally arrogant and annoying to each other along with each team having a coach that opposing fans love to hate.

    I know that many believe the Rams are going to be a much better team in 2013, that may be true, but it isn't like the Hawks/Niners are just going to plateau at their 2012 level. The Rams IMHO are likely going to finish stronger, but still have a little growing to do if they are to overcome the Niners/Hawks right now.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:18 pm
  • loafoftatupu wrote:I still think that it comes down to Seattle and SF, that the other two are not in the same league quite yet. Within that, I also don't feel the Hawks have a clear advantage over SF anywhere outside of the secondary. On the flipside, I don't see a clear advantage for SF outside of the defensive front and O-line.

    Every other aspect of the teams could be argued for the entire off season. So much is similar between the two. Even the fans are equally arrogant and annoying to each other along with each team having a coach that opposing fans love to hate.

    I know that many believe the Rams are going to be a much better team in 2013, that may be true, but it isn't like the Hawks/Niners are just going to plateau at their 2012 level. The Rams IMHO are likely going to finish stronger, but still have a little growing to do if they are to overcome the Niners/Hawks right now.


    So, given their injury situation right now, or even without it, would you take SF's WRs over ours if you could have either one?

    I wouldn't.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:03 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:I found your TE and O-line rankings a bit off. Why the focus on depth when most of these teams would trade their entire unit for Vernon Davis? Jared Cook is far less than the sum of the parts when you watch his actual playmaking results. Zach Miller can still dominate, look at the playoffs. Depth is nice, but not a requirement. Look at Detroits receiver corps. It is as deep as a kiddie pool after megatron, but who cares? Same goes for Vernon Davis.

    I felt like the whole exercise was about proving Seattle is better than SF. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it feels like.


    I for one wouldn't trade Miller, McGrath, and Willson for Vernon Davis.

    I know STL wouldn't trade Cook and Kendricks for Vernon Davis... they should have one of the better duos in the NFL.

    Only Arizona would probably trade their whole unit for Vernon Davis... but they are 2nd because Housler was pretty good last year catching 45 balls. And they have the most experienced depth.

    If this had been a STARTERS ONLY rankings I could see where a lot of you are talking about...but I decided to rank Starters + Depth and then give the team with the best starter a bonus point. This is a contact sport, guys get hurt, depth matters.

    TE was actually the hardest position grouping to place because I did put premiums on Davis and Miller. But as I looked at each team's depth, I felt I got it right in the end.

    As for O-line I think I got it right, its the end results that counts...

    San Fran ranked 13/14 overall, Seattle ranked 12/14 overall, St. Louis ranked 9/14 overall, and Arizona ranked 6/14. I think that fairs well to the actuality. We know San Fran has the best line, we also know that the Seahawk's line isn't that far behind, Long and a healthy Wells will go a long way to solidifying the Rams line and Arizona has a lot of work to put in.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:41 am
  • Nice job on this but I think you have grossly underestimated Jake Long - that guy ate our lunch when we played them
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:19 am
  • Yes, the Rams and Hawks would trade their entire TE group for Vernon Davis. SF has the highest rated TE's in our division, and to think otherwise to me is almost enough of a farce to cost the entire post it's credibility.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:52 am
  • Ad Hawk wrote:
    So, given their injury situation right now, or even without it, would you take SF's WRs over ours if you could have either one?

    I wouldn't.



    No, but not because of talent, because of how they fit into the system. If you lined up both sets of receivers, who were all healthy, I would still take the Seattle crew regardless of offense, but in SF, the passing game is different. Very much focused on 3 or less targets with little use outside that group. For the Niners, they have the right guys in place to ball like that. VD, Crabs and now Boldin could support an entire passing offense.

    In Seattle, the ball is absolutely everywhere. In that situation I would certainly want the set of receivers that are on the Hawk's roster. Now mind you, I really haven't factored in Harvin yet. As a football player, he may be one of the best in the NFL, not just with Seattle and SF. This Harvin thing could be a very, VERY big deal and could totally decimate any idea of what we envisioned the Seahawks offense looking like. Something to see once he is on the field, but for now, who knows? Wilson spread the ball out so evenly that no one WR really stood out except for Rice, who didn't produce crazy numbers in comparison and was a deeper threat.

    I just see each group working for each team's program. SF is going to suffer from the Crabtree injury, Boldin can fill SOME of that role, but not the all around, everytime, "here I am", combination of the fair speed, height and athleticism that a young Crabtree just coming into his prime carries. Crabtree was poised to set the numbers on fire with Kaeperstank riding him. Manningham, Boldin and Crabtree make a pretty solid group of starting receivers, too bad for SF they won't all be on the field at the same time. Heck, we don't even know if Manningham is fully recovered.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:21 am
  • loafoftatupu wrote:I still think that it comes down to Seattle and SF, that the other two are not in the same league quite yet. Within that, I also don't feel the Hawks have a clear advantage over SF anywhere outside of the secondary. On the flipside, I don't see a clear advantage for SF outside of the defensive front and O-line.

    Every other aspect of the teams could be argued for the entire off season. So much is similar between the two. Even the fans are equally arrogant and annoying to each other along with each team having a coach that opposing fans love to hate.

    I know that many believe the Rams are going to be a much better team in 2013, that may be true, but it isn't like the Hawks/Niners are just going to plateau at their 2012 level. The Rams IMHO are likely going to finish stronger, but still have a little growing to do if they are to overcome the Niners/Hawks right now.


    Agreed with everything you wrote.

    Scottemojo wrote:I found your TE and O-line rankings a bit off. Why the focus on depth when most of these teams would trade their entire unit for Vernon Davis? Jared Cook is far less than the sum of the parts when you watch his actual playmaking results. Zach Miller can still dominate, look at the playoffs. Depth is nice, but not a requirement. Look at Detroits receiver corps. It is as deep as a kiddie pool after megatron, but who cares? Same goes for Vernon Davis.

    I felt like the whole exercise was about proving Seattle is better than SF. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it feels like.


    Also agree here. Seems like if anybody wants to they can choose to focus on any particular piece data and manipulate it in order to find ways to make one team to appear better than the other. If a fellow Niner fan wrote something like this I am sure it would highlight a different reason as to why the Niners would be awarded more points.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:30 am
  • loafoftatupu wrote:
    Ad Hawk wrote:
    So, given their injury situation right now, or even without it, would you take SF's WRs over ours if you could have either one?

    I wouldn't.



    No, but not because of talent, because of how they fit into the system. If you lined up both sets of receivers, who were all healthy, I would still take the Seattle crew regardless of offense, but in SF, the passing game is different. Very much focused on 3 or less targets with little use outside that group. For the Niners, they have the right guys in place to ball like that. VD, Crabs and now Boldin could support an entire passing offense.

    In Seattle, the ball is absolutely everywhere. In that situation I would certainly want the set of receivers that are on the Hawk's roster. Now mind you, I really haven't factored in Harvin yet. As a football player, he may be one of the best in the NFL, not just with Seattle and SF. This Harvin thing could be a very, VERY big deal and could totally decimate any idea of what we envisioned the Seahawks offense looking like. Something to see once he is on the field, but for now, who knows? Wilson spread the ball out so evenly that no one WR really stood out except for Rice, who didn't produce crazy numbers in comparison and was a deeper threat.

    I just see each group working for each team's program. SF is going to suffer from the Crabtree injury, Boldin can fill SOME of that role, but not the all around, everytime, "here I am", combination of the fair speed, height and athleticism that a young Crabtree just coming into his prime carries. Crabtree was poised to set the numbers on fire with Kaeperstank riding him. Manningham, Boldin and Crabtree make a pretty solid group of starting receivers, too bad for SF they won't all be on the field at the same time. Heck, we don't even know if Manningham is fully recovered.


    Because of what you point out in your post, I would count on our running game to be featured alot more than even last year. Gore, Hunter, James will be getting a ton of carries on rotation to keep all 3 fresh for every down. Couple that to the ability of Kaep to burst out a potential 56 yard run or deep pass using the pistol, and that will be enough to keep defenses honest. It will be Greg Roman's ability to adjust when defenses start watching film during the course of the season trying to counter is what our season will hinge on.

    Lucky for both our teams we have explosive playmakers that are capable for making such adjustments in order to keep the offensive scheme fresh.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:39 am
  • QB depth matters in regards to how big the drop-off will be when the starter goes down. It doesn't matter in the sense that 49ers and Seahawks are superbowl contenders with their starting qbs. NOT with their backups.........

    "So for this to make any sense, over a course of 16 games at times the Seahawks at max potential could perform up to 16% better than San Fran’s offense. Relative to the Ram’s O: up to 29% better. Relative to the Card’s O, up to 32% better."

    I am not going to remember this post at the end of the seasons but OP - it would be really neat with a re-analysis at the end of the year compared to this
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:42 pm
  • loafoftatupu wrote:I still think that it comes down to Seattle and SF, that the other two are not in the same league quite yet. Within that, I also don't feel the Hawks have a clear advantage over SF anywhere outside of the secondary. On the flipside, I don't see a clear advantage for SF outside of the defensive front and O-line.


    I'd say the Hawks have a clear advantage over SF at WR. Rice, Harvin, Tate, Baldwin is far superior to a 49ers position group without Crabtree playing. The 49ers have way too many question marks with injury concerns (Manningham), guys that have yet to develop cohesion with Kaepernick (Jenkins, Williams) or newbies (Patton).

    And Anquan Boldin is not a game-changing receiver, he just isn't. He is good, yes. But I see him as more of a possession guy/chain mover than a guy who is going to dominate, especially with defenses not having to contend with Crabtree. Boldin and Vernon Davis are going to be getting a lot of attention from defenses.

    Overall, I think WR is a position I'd be worried about as a 49ers fan.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:13 pm
  • MeanBlueGreen wrote:Nice job on this but I think you have grossly underestimated Jake Long - that guy ate our lunch when we played them


    I didn't grossly underestimate Jake Long... I ranked the Rams OTs equally to the Seahawks and 49ers. That is saying something about how I feel about the Rams tackles.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:14 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:Yes, the Rams and Hawks would trade their entire TE group for Vernon Davis. SF has the highest rated TE's in our division, and to think otherwise to me is almost enough of a farce to cost the entire post it's credibility.


    Tical21 wrote:Yes, the Rams and Hawks would trade their entire TE group for Vernon Davis. SF has the highest rated TE's in our division, and to think otherwise to me is almost enough of a farce to cost the entire post it's credibility.


    Well that's your opinion.

    I feel like both teams would want to retain their quantity over quality especially when their quantity of players also are of quality.

    Vernon Davis is an elite player, but this is a TEAM sport.

    Zach Miller is one of the better TEs in the NFL, not statistically in the last 2 years, but his blocking has been instrumental to our rushing revival. Many coaches especially Tom Cable have lauded his effort and toughness.
    So no I don't think the Seahawks would trade Miller, McGrath, Willson, + McCoy for one singularity of Vernon Davis. It would seem like a bad business decision.
    Also, Miller and Davis careers:

    Miller: 6 seasons, 65% catch rate (289/443), 48 catches per season, 557 yards per season, 11.6 ypc, 2.5 TDs per season, 151 First Downs & 3 Fumbles in 6 Seasons.

    Davis: 7 seasons, 60% catch rate (345/554), 49 catches per season, 621 yards per season, 622, 12.6 ypc, 5.71 TDs per season, 187 First downs and 7 fumbles in 7 Seasons.

    The only clear advantage I see with Davis is that he averages about 3.0 TDs per season more than Miller. And in Miller's case there are things to think about like the bad QB situation in Oakland in his time there which might not necessarily affect yardage but TD opportunities, switched teams during a lockout season with a QB that also was new, a QB that played hurt and didn't know how to target a TE to save his life, plus playing with a 3rd round rookie in 2012.
    Davis while he's had many OC changes had the same QB each year in Alex Smith other than when Shaun Hill stepped in because of injury and when Kaepernick replaced Smith, last season.
    So again Davis is a great player but imo Zach Miller isn't that far behind and I would give Miller the edge in overall blocking ability while both players are likely elite in that aspect.


    And frankly both McGrath and Willson have a lot of potential, according to Danny Kelly of FieldGulls.com and his inquiry into Nike's SPARQ rating system that measures a player's athletic ability and explosion both Luke Willson and Sean McGrath rate better than Aaron Hernandez and Rob Gronokowski.

    Luke Willson, 6'5, 252, 136.69 SPARQ rating
    >Aaron Hernandez, 6'3, 245, 126.39 SPARQ rating
    Sean McGrath, 6'5, 257, 124.2 SPARQ rating
    >Rob Gronokowski, 6'6, 258, 121.05 SPARQ rating

    I'm not saying McGrath and Willson are going to tear the league up, but their athletic ability is better than Hernandez/Gronk. And the Seahawks have a great QB who can recognize and exploit that type of talent against opposing defenses.
    I’m not going to argue the Rams TE because frankly I don’t care as much but again I don’t think the Rams would trade two above quality to potentially great TEs for one elite one. It doesn’t make sense to me.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:34 pm
  • If you are claiming that quantity is better than quality, perhaps PC should just trade away all your 1st-6th round picks for 7th rounders and get the quantity that you want.

    With salary cap issues that your team WILL face when rookie contracts get re-worked during their contract year on all your QUALITY players, quantity is something that your team won't be able to afford. You guys have a talented roster that is going to get really expensive in a few years because like you all have said before...they are young.

    Your TE argument of quantity over quality that you are using just to justify not awarding a higher point value to the Niners is dropping your credibility. I know I am a Niner fan so my opinion means little on here, but at least listen to your own who are telling you the same thing. There's nothing wrong with giving a team credit when credits due.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:32 pm
  • Pandion Haliaetus wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Yes, the Rams and Hawks would trade their entire TE group for Vernon Davis. SF has the highest rated TE's in our division, and to think otherwise to me is almost enough of a farce to cost the entire post it's credibility.


    Tical21 wrote:Yes, the Rams and Hawks would trade their entire TE group for Vernon Davis. SF has the highest rated TE's in our division, and to think otherwise to me is almost enough of a farce to cost the entire post it's credibility.


    Well that's your opinion.

    I feel like both teams would want to retain their quantity over quality especially when their quantity of players also are of quality.

    Vernon Davis is an elite player, but this is a TEAM sport.

    Zach Miller is one of the better TEs in the NFL, not statistically in the last 2 years, but his blocking has been instrumental to our rushing revival. Many coaches especially Tom Cable have lauded his effort and toughness.
    So no I don't think the Seahawks would trade Miller, McGrath, Willson, + McCoy for one singularity of Vernon Davis. It would seem like a bad business decision.
    Also, Miller and Davis careers:

    Miller: 6 seasons, 65% catch rate (289/443), 48 catches per season, 557 yards per season, 11.6 ypc, 2.5 TDs per season, 151 First Downs & 3 Fumbles in 6 Seasons.

    Davis: 7 seasons, 60% catch rate (345/554), 49 catches per season, 621 yards per season, 622, 12.6 ypc, 5.71 TDs per season, 187 First downs and 7 fumbles in 7 Seasons.

    The only clear advantage I see with Davis is that he averages about 3.0 TDs per season more than Miller. And in Miller's case there are things to think about like the bad QB situation in Oakland in his time there which might not necessarily affect yardage but TD opportunities, switched teams during a lockout season with a QB that also was new, a QB that played hurt and didn't know how to target a TE to save his life, plus playing with a 3rd round rookie in 2012.
    Davis while he's had many OC changes had the same QB each year in Alex Smith other than when Shaun Hill stepped in because of injury and when Kaepernick replaced Smith, last season.
    So again Davis is a great player but imo Zach Miller isn't that far behind and I would give Miller the edge in overall blocking ability while both players are likely elite in that aspect.


    And frankly both McGrath and Willson have a lot of potential, according to Danny Kelly of FieldGulls.com and his inquiry into Nike's SPARQ rating system that measures a player's athletic ability and explosion both Luke Willson and Sean McGrath rate better than Aaron Hernandez and Rob Gronokowski.

    Luke Willson, 6'5, 252, 136.69 SPARQ rating
    >Aaron Hernandez, 6'3, 245, 126.39 SPARQ rating
    Sean McGrath, 6'5, 257, 124.2 SPARQ rating
    >Rob Gronokowski, 6'6, 258, 121.05 SPARQ rating

    I'm not saying McGrath and Willson are going to tear the league up, but their athletic ability is better than Hernandez/Gronk. And the Seahawks have a great QB who can recognize and exploit that type of talent against opposing defenses.
    I’m not going to argue the Rams TE because frankly I don’t care as much but again I don’t think the Rams would trade two above quality to potentially great TEs for one elite one. It doesn’t make sense to me.

    Did you just say that McGrath and Wilson have better athletic ability than Hernandez and Gronkowski?

    Have you ever seen Vernon Davis or Zach Miller play football? Actually play, not just look at stats, I mean actually play on the field.

    Cook and Kendricks? C'mon man.

    If SF was offered McGrath, Wilson, Cook and Kendricks for Vernon Davis, there is less than a 0 percent chance they make that move. You, sir, are vastly overstating the importance of a backup TE.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:56 am
  • Did you just say that McGrath and Wilson have better athletic ability than Hernandez and Gronkowski?

    Have you ever seen Vernon Davis or Zach Miller play football? Actually play, not just look at stats, I mean actually play on the field.

    Cook and Kendricks? C'mon man.

    If SF was offered McGrath, Wilson, Cook and Kendricks for Vernon Davis, there is less than a 0 percent chance they make that move. You, sir, are vastly overstating the importance of a backup TE.


    :13:

    Seriously man?
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:02 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:Did you just say that McGrath and Wilson have better athletic ability than Hernandez and Gronkowski?

    Have you ever seen Vernon Davis or Zach Miller play football? Actually play, not just look at stats, I mean actually play on the field.

    Cook and Kendricks? C'mon man.

    If SF was offered McGrath, Wilson, Cook and Kendricks for Vernon Davis, there is less than a 0 percent chance they make that move. You, sir, are vastly overstating the importance of a backup TE.


    Yeah, I did. Because they are. I wouldn't just say it, if I didn't mean it. Willson is an athletic monster. McGrath is no push-over either.

    [url]http://www.fieldgulls.com/seahawks-analysis/2013/6/19/4445838/seahawks-pete-carroll-sparq-luke-willson
    [/url]

    SPARQ rating is measured by an athlete's HT, WT, 40 YD Dash, 20 YD Shuttle, Vertical Jump and Powerball Toss (Which Danny Kelly researched that adding 20 reps to a players Bench Press is a close estimate to how many reps a player can throw a Powerball).

    Luke Willson: 6'5, 252, 4.51 40, 4.29 Shuttle, 38" Vertical Jump, 43 Adj. Powerball Toss. (135.69 SPARQ rating)

    Aaron Hernandez: 6'3, 245, 4.64 40, 4.18 Shuttle, 33" Vertical Jump, 50 Adj. Powerball Toss. (126.59 SPARQ rating)

    Sean McGrath: 6'5, 247, 4.79 40, 4.16 Shuttle, 35.5" Vertical Jump, 40* Adj. Powerball Toss (124.2 SPARQ rating)

    Rob Gronokowski: 6'6, 258, 4.68 40, 4.47 Shuttle, 33.5 Vertical Jump, 43 Adj. Powerball Toss (121.05 SPARQ rating)

    * Sean McGrath didn't perform in the bench press, so this was just an estimated figure on Danny Kelly's part but logically I think it would be a higher number than 20 bench reps because if you did a side by side of Willson and McGrath, you'd likely believe McGrath the stronger of the two and Willson had 23 reps.

    So, again, I did not state McGrath and Willson were better players than Hernandez and Gronk but in terms of measurable athleticism Willson rated better in than Hernandez by 9 points, and McGrath rated better than Gronk by 3 points.
    Willson and McGrath are 12 points of athleticism better than Hernandez and Gronk. Sorry to burst your bubble, dude.

    As for the whole Miller and Davis thing. I’ve seen Miller player, and I’ve seen Davis play. Obviously, Vernon Davis is elite by all means, but again I wouldn’t trade the farm for his services.

    As for Miller, he is a very good player, he hasn’t been as productive with the Seahawks because of the lockout transition and he’s been asked to play on the line a lot, limiting his overall opportunities the past two seasons.
    And don’t act like the stats don’t matter because that’s disregarding very good evidence to who both players are, Vernon Davis gets way more targets, Miller is more clutch with his catches with a 65% catch rate, the only thing Vernon Davis is truly better than Miller in is that he gets 1.0 more yards per catch, and 3.21 TDs more per season.

    Again, I wouldn’t trade Cook and Kendricks for Vernon Davis… so why would a theoretical argument with McGrath and Willson in the picture make a difference. I highly doubt the Rams would either. And you truly underrate the significance of a good backup. You act like players don’t ever get hurt. If Cook got hurt, the Rams automatically got a player in Kendricks who can step up and provide similar productions without any serious ramifications as to what they can do.

    If Vernon Davis gets hurt, San Fran is in serious trouble especially if their young and inexperienced guys can’t step up. They probably wished they had some depth.

    Again, I don’t think Seahawks would trade their 3 TEs for Vernon Davis. Miller is only a step behind Davis in overall talent in my perspective whether you believe or not the stats back it up whether you choose to ignore it or not plus McGrath, Willson both have above quality to elite athleticism and I’m pretty sure the Seahawks would want to see where that goes.

    As for the Rams, again, I don’t think the Rams trade Cook and Kendricks for Vernon Davis. Both TEs are young, and proven highly productive. A team can do a lot of things with an elite TE but a team can do much more with two quality to potentially great TEs. And in the NFL things like that matter in the end.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:30 pm
  • I think you guys get too wrapped up in stats. Stats can and do get over inflated by many variables that don't get tracked, which is why stats aren't everything.

    Strength of schedule never gets factored into a stat line when judging a player except by us fans, and has a tendency to boost a players stats. If that team ends up having a good year off of a soft schedule, those players or the entire team in some cases flops the following year when their schedule is consequently more difficult due to their previous seasons success.

    These number games and stat lines are "fun" ways to pass the time during the offseason, but don't always tell the whole story.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:05 pm
  • If backup TE's were valuable commodities, you wouldn't be able to get yours as an undrafted free agent and would have to pay them more than the league minimum. 25 of the NFL teams have a Joe as their backup TE, and wouldn't lose sleep if that guy were out for the season. Sean McGrath wouldn't make a list of the 40 most important Seahawks. If he is on any roster three years from now, it will be a feat.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:15 pm
  • You can say whatever you want... teams with two good to great TEs are more dangerous than teams with just one. McGrath is just the next talent up because McCoy (5th round pick) got hurt. Willson is a 5th round pick. And who cares where you find players in the draft or udfa.. it really means jack squat, what matters is they can contribute and be productive in the NFL.

    For instance Doug Baldwin, udfa 2011 was way more productive that season than any 49ers WR drafted other than Michael Crabtree and both had similar 1st seasons in the NFL.

    As for dual TE impact: Even though the 49ers had Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker saw plenty of playing time. Hernandez/Gronk. Hell, the Bengals spent a 1st round pick on a TE even though they already had a good one in Gresham. I don't have the time to look up more instances in the league where teams but i'm sure I could find more.

    You guys are awesome though, thanks for trying.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:47 am
  • NinerLifer wrote:I think you guys get too wrapped up in stats. Stats can and do get over inflated by many variables that don't get tracked, which is why stats aren't everything.

    Strength of schedule never gets factored into a stat line when judging a player except by us fans, and has a tendency to boost a players stats. If that team ends up having a good year off of a soft schedule, those players or the entire team in some cases flops the following year when their schedule is consequently more difficult due to their previous seasons success.

    These number games and stat lines are "fun" ways to pass the time during the offseason, but don't always tell the whole story.


    It's funny you say that because I was noticing yesterday on a 9er forum that you participate it, I was noticing repeatedly the lack of anything verifiable or stat related. Pretty much a bunch of hope based facts (Niner facts that is) that could only come from the imagination of a Niner fan.

    For fun I copied one that made me laugh.

    From the Niners forum:
    Seattle, though blatantly trying to mimic our formula will be a 2 year flash in the pan. Watch how they struggle to get 10 wins with the target on their backs and 5 10AM road games. STL, GB, NO, and NYG will be in our paths to Super Bowls for years to come because they have solid programs and excellent coaching. Pete Carroll will flame out and be sent packing in a couple of years, just watch. He is an average coach that just happens to be in the right division chasing and mimicking the right team. And Darren Bevell is his saving grace along with the talents of Marshawn Lynch. Once those 2 are gone the Hawks will fizzle out. They will have a good defense but Russy won't be able to carry them on his talents alone without another dynamo calling plays and running the ball.

    GB is the type of team with the type of QB that will be in our paths the next 5 years and I want to really establish the pecking order week 1 with another spanking to let them know who is boss. Plant the seeds of doubt in their minds and totally humiliate them each time we meet. After we spank them, then we go up to SEA and put Petey in his place. Now that we know how SEA intends to play us we will be ready but I know that we will present them with things they haven't seen or imagined behind the talents of our SUPERIOR coaching staff with Mangenious added to the mix. And we will be highly motivated after 42 - 13 and all the chatter that has been bandied about


    Don't you think stats as well as all information have some kind of place in these conversations? I mean otherwise you kind of end up with post's like the one above and don't fool yourself, there isn't a stat to be found in that entire thread.

    No I don't think we get hung up on stats, I think we have posters here that would like to provide information outside of imagination.

    Oop,s I guess technically 42-13 could be considered a stat.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:28 am
  • Pandion Haliaetus wrote:You can say whatever you want... teams with two good to great TEs are more dangerous than teams with just one. McGrath is just the next talent up because McCoy (5th round pick) got hurt. Willson is a 5th round pick. And who cares where you find players in the draft or udfa.. it really means jack squat, what matters is they can contribute and be productive in the NFL.

    For instance Doug Baldwin, udfa 2011 was way more productive that season than any 49ers WR drafted other than Michael Crabtree and both had similar 1st seasons in the NFL.

    As for dual TE impact: Even though the 49ers had Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker saw plenty of playing time. Hernandez/Gronk. Hell, the Bengals spent a 1st round pick on a TE even though they already had a good one in Gresham. I don't have the time to look up more instances in the league where teams but i'm sure I could find more.

    You guys are awesome though, thanks for trying.

    First of all, discounting the Niners depth is silly. The tight end they took in the draft is quite possibly one we had targeted, and looks damn good as a prospect. Their backup tight end was a bright spot, one of the few, in the beatdown they took in Seattle. And stats aside (and truly, you are using stats from the Alex Smith era to rate VD's production?), Vernon Davis is dynamic. He makes DCs lose sleep. Imagine him with Drew Brees or Tom Brady, it would be scary. As far as the fact that nobody can step into his role if he gets hurt, how many players in the entire league compare to Davis athletically? His speed size combo is rare. Of course the depth looks thin after him. But Vance Mcdonald might provide immediate impact, though with the Niners track record of not playing rookies much we might have to wait a year to find out what he can do.

    Speaking of which, Willson or McGrath proving to be good probably depends more on their blocking and Russell's arm than anything else. The fact that they are better athletes than Gronk or Hernandez or anyone else is meaningless. If it meant anything, Jameson Konz would be a probowler by now.

    As far as the rest of the league and the new value placed on the tight end position, that is here to stay IMO. The Bengals and Colts are imitating the Patriots. The Pats love having Tom Brady reading 3 players with two way go options at the LOS. The Niners run their 2 and 3 TE sets a lot different, seeking to establish all of their tight ends as blockers first. They use a bunch of formations to see if they can get linebackers and safeties to be assignment unsound, and they have those TEs running block sets and pass routes that look identical for the first few steps. THe Niners aren't doing two way go routes as often as the Patriots, clearly with them throwing 40 percent less they can't, and they like to run stacked route, stacked read stuff. Kaepernick has a lot of audible options if they see an easy two way go after they break huddle, but by and large they are not relying on those as a key ingredient of the offense like the Patriots. I don't think the Niners feel they have a lack of depth at TE, if the guys can block and catch a little, the scheme will provide some easy looks for them. Delanie Walker is not as good as some think, he is a product of that scheme, IMO. Losing him will be minimal impact, and in fact McDonald may provide a big upgrade, even though he may not be suited to the Hback role.

    I do appreciate the work you put into your OP, but I am more a matchup guy. Show me who is lined up on who, because that is what the OC, DC, and QB have to do.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:32 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:
    Pandion Haliaetus wrote:You can say whatever you want... teams with two good to great TEs are more dangerous than teams with just one. McGrath is just the next talent up because McCoy (5th round pick) got hurt. Willson is a 5th round pick. And who cares where you find players in the draft or udfa.. it really means jack squat, what matters is they can contribute and be productive in the NFL.

    For instance Doug Baldwin, udfa 2011 was way more productive that season than any 49ers WR drafted other than Michael Crabtree and both had similar 1st seasons in the NFL.

    As for dual TE impact: Even though the 49ers had Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker saw plenty of playing time. Hernandez/Gronk. Hell, the Bengals spent a 1st round pick on a TE even though they already had a good one in Gresham. I don't have the time to look up more instances in the league where teams but i'm sure I could find more.

    You guys are awesome though, thanks for trying.


    First of all, discounting the Niners depth is silly. The tight end they took in the draft is quite possibly one we had targeted, and looks damn good as a prospect. Their backup tight end was a bright spot, one of the few, in the beatdown they took in Seattle. And stats aside (and truly, you are using stats from the Alex Smith era to rate VD's production?), Vernon Davis is dynamic. He makes DCs lose sleep. Imagine him with Drew Brees or Tom Brady, it would be scary. As far as the fact that nobody can step into his role if he gets hurt, how many players in the entire league compare to Davis athletically? His speed size combo is rare. Of course the depth looks thin after him. But Vance Mcdonald might provide immediate impact, though with the Niners track record of not playing rookies much we might have to wait a year to find out what he can do.

    Speaking of which, Willson or McGrath proving to be good probably depends more on their blocking and Russell's arm than anything else. The fact that they are better athletes than Gronk or Hernandez or anyone else is meaningless. If it meant anything, Jameson Konz would be a probowler by now.

    As far as the rest of the league and the new value placed on the tight end position, that is here to stay IMO. The Bengals and Colts are imitating the Patriots. The Pats love having Tom Brady reading 3 players with two way go options at the LOS. The Niners run their 2 and 3 TE sets a lot different, seeking to establish all of their tight ends as blockers first. They use a bunch of formations to see if they can get linebackers and safeties to be assignment unsound, and they have those TEs running block sets and pass routes that look identical for the first few steps. THe Niners aren't doing two way go routes as often as the Patriots, clearly with them throwing 40 percent less they can't, and they like to run stacked route, stacked read stuff. Kaepernick has a lot of audible options if they see an easy two way go after they break huddle, but by and large they are not relying on those as a key ingredient of the offense like the Patriots. I don't think the Niners feel they have a lack of depth at TE, if the guys can block and catch a little, the scheme will provide some easy looks for them. Delanie Walker is not as good as some think, he is a product of that scheme, IMO. Losing him will be minimal impact, and in fact McDonald may provide a big upgrade, even though he may not be suited to the Hback role.

    I do appreciate the work you put into your OP, but I am more a matchup guy. Show me who is lined up on who, because that is what the OC, DC, and QB have to do.


    Man I can't believe page 2 turned into an argument of TEs.

    1. I didn't discount Vernon Davis in anyway, as I gave the 49ers a full point for having him. I discounted their depth, which I can do, as their depth have proved little to nothing in this league. Hence, why I ranked the Seahawks last even though I felt Zach Miller is the 2nd best TE in the Division.

    2. Alex Smith is a decent better than average QB, he might not be elite, but he was a statistically great QB in 2012. I'd even wager they would have won the Superbowl with him. In my opinion, Harbaugh did a great disservice to Smith, and started Kaepernick because the read-option was having great success in the NFL. Russell Willson was tearing it up, and Harbaugh was jealous more or less. Speculation on my part, so don' get too bent out of shape over that comment. But the thing is, you can't really discount Alex Smith, when Vernon Davis put up his most of his elite status numbers over the years with Smith.

    3. The whole Seahawks targeted McDonald is just speculation, there is no evidence to support that. If anything Seahawks could have been scouting Luke Willson as JS stated that Willson was the “must have” player from this draft but since Vance McDonald is from Rice too. It would be very understandable to see how other teams might have been thinking Seahawks and McDonald with the 2nd. But the fact is 49ers still spent a 2nd round pick to replace Delanie walker, I think that tells you how important they view the depth from that position, and the fact is McDonald although an intriguing prospect is still a rookie. In my rankings I valued experience > potential.
    I also can’t see how you can support McDonald and then state Delanie Walker is overrated. The dude was a swiss army knife and was highly productive despite the fact that he was in the big bad might elite superman of Tight Ends Vernon Davis’ shadow. Just funny. I mean I guess the only reason any 49ers player is any good is because Vernon Davis’ influence makes them good. VD is elite but he is only one guy.

    4. I find your statement about McGrath and Willson to be a little dramatic especially the comparison to Konz.
    1) Konz was a 6-3, 227 WR in college, raw to the core, Seahawks took him on upside and while his athletic ability did impress, he could never grab a hold of an opportunity because he was oft-injured.
    2) So no its not meaningless. Both McGrath and Willson have prototypical TE size plus great athletic ability and their skills are much more refined for the position than Konz was.
    3) Their blocking ability is likely better than we assume… McGrath was an all-around solid TE at Henderson St and Willson said blocking is a strength of his game. It remains to be seen but we’ll find out more in training camp. I find it funny that players can’t be good anymore on their own ability, you basically said if McGrath and Willson are successful they have no right in it because its because of Russell Wilson.

    Whereas, I believe that Russell Wilson is the type of QB with ability that can exploit McGrath’s and Willson’s great athleticism.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:41 pm
  • Pandion Haliaetus wrote:You can say whatever you want... teams with two good to great TEs are more dangerous than teams with just one. McGrath is just the next talent up because McCoy (5th round pick) got hurt. Willson is a 5th round pick. And who cares where you find players in the draft or udfa.. it really means jack squat, what matters is they can contribute and be productive in the NFL.

    For instance Doug Baldwin, udfa 2011 was way more productive that season than any 49ers WR drafted other than Michael Crabtree and both had similar 1st seasons in the NFL.

    As for dual TE impact: Even though the 49ers had Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker saw plenty of playing time. Hernandez/Gronk. Hell, the Bengals spent a 1st round pick on a TE even though they already had a good one in Gresham. I don't have the time to look up more instances in the league where teams but i'm sure I could find more.

    You guys are awesome though, thanks for trying.


    Thanks for trying? Dude we appreciate your work, now why are you trying to ruin your welcome by being a prick?
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:47 pm
  • Dude, all you had to do was admit your man-crush on Willson and McGrath and this could have been over days ago. We all have them, and that is fine. Where you lost us was when you tried to justify your crushes by vastly overstating the value of depth at TE. My opinion is at least 25 teams in the NFL would trade their entire stable of TE's for SF's. Even the Colts. Even the Bengals. Definitely the Seahawks. I guess we will disagree and move on.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:46 am
  • therealjohncarlson wrote:
    Pandion Haliaetus wrote:You can say whatever you want... teams with two good to great TEs are more dangerous than teams with just one. McGrath is just the next talent up because McCoy (5th round pick) got hurt. Willson is a 5th round pick. And who cares where you find players in the draft or udfa.. it really means jack squat, what matters is they can contribute and be productive in the NFL.

    For instance Doug Baldwin, udfa 2011 was way more productive that season than any 49ers WR drafted other than Michael Crabtree and both had similar 1st seasons in the NFL.

    As for dual TE impact: Even though the 49ers had Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker saw plenty of playing time. Hernandez/Gronk. Hell, the Bengals spent a 1st round pick on a TE even though they already had a good one in Gresham. I don't have the time to look up more instances in the league where teams but i'm sure I could find more.

    You guys are awesome though, thanks for trying.


    Thanks for trying? Dude we appreciate your work, now why are you trying to ruin your welcome by being a prick?


    You are absolutely right. I'll apologize for that, we all have our own opinions, and our own values on how we view talent and potential in perspective that is relative to our team and league wide. Regardless of opinions its hard to argue who is in the right or wrong.

    That's why ranking such as this is widely subjective, even though I tried to remain as unbiased as possible.

    I've have already mentioned many times Vernon Davis as the best TE in the NFC West, so i'll just concede that they have the 49ers have the 2nd best TE corps in the Division, which is funny because that is where I originally slated them, with Vernon Davis giving them the tie-breaker with St. Louis until San Fran's backups prove their value.

    That change gives San Fran a 7 out of 9 score of WR/TEs in the West for an offensive potency score of 86%.

    I likely won't finish this project on the Defensive side of the ball, as my heart isn't in it anymore.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:46 am
  • Pandion Haliaetus wrote:
    therealjohncarlson wrote:
    Pandion Haliaetus wrote:You can say whatever you want... teams with two good to great TEs are more dangerous than teams with just one. McGrath is just the next talent up because McCoy (5th round pick) got hurt. Willson is a 5th round pick. And who cares where you find players in the draft or udfa.. it really means jack squat, what matters is they can contribute and be productive in the NFL.

    For instance Doug Baldwin, udfa 2011 was way more productive that season than any 49ers WR drafted other than Michael Crabtree and both had similar 1st seasons in the NFL.

    As for dual TE impact: Even though the 49ers had Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker saw plenty of playing time. Hernandez/Gronk. Hell, the Bengals spent a 1st round pick on a TE even though they already had a good one in Gresham. I don't have the time to look up more instances in the league where teams but i'm sure I could find more.

    You guys are awesome though, thanks for trying.


    Thanks for trying? Dude we appreciate your work, now why are you trying to ruin your welcome by being a prick?


    You are absolutely right. I'll apologize for that, we all have our own opinions, and our own values on how we view talent and potential in perspective that is relative to our team and league wide. Regardless of opinions its hard to argue who is in the right or wrong.

    That's why ranking such as this is widely subjective, even though I tried to remain as unbiased as possible.

    I've have already mentioned many times Vernon Davis as the best TE in the NFC West, so i'll just concede that they have the 49ers have the 2nd best TE corps in the Division, which is funny because that is where I originally slated them, with Vernon Davis giving them the tie-breaker with St. Louis until San Fran's backups prove their value.

    That change gives San Fran a 7 out of 9 score of WR/TEs in the West for an offensive potency score of 86%.

    I likely won't finish this project on the Defensive side of the ball, as my heart isn't in it anymore.


    Don't let people get to you, I enjoy your work and appreciate it. I don't always agree 100% but that's normal. Just because some are critical doesn't mean others don't enjoy reading your stuff.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:32 am
  • http://www.profootballrosters.com/2013/ ... ack-corps/

    So what's your argument against this writers differing opinion about the RB corps?
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:23 am
  • NinerLifer wrote:http://www.profootballrosters.com/2013/07/07/top-5-nfl-running-back-corps/

    So what's your argument against this writers differing opinion about the RB corps?


    Well, besides the ability to jam a bunch of numbers into a site, the overall site is amateur at best. I see no reason to give the author of that drivel anymore credit then the one who posted here.

    That being said, Turbin had more total yards then both Hunter and James combined last season. And that was with a featured back that completely eclipsed Gore.

    Without any question, Lynch is the superior back to Gore (At this specific time, not talking about careers here). Turbin is right on par with the combination of both hunter and James. I think its pretty straight forward that SEA is the better of the two position groups.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:28 am
  • Cartire wrote:
    NinerLifer wrote:http://www.profootballrosters.com/2013/07/07/top-5-nfl-running-back-corps/

    So what's your argument against this writers differing opinion about the RB corps?


    Well, besides the ability to jam a bunch of numbers into a site, the overall site is amateur at best. I see no reason to give the author of that drivel anymore credit then the one who posted here.

    That being said, Turbin had more total yards then both Hunter and James combined last season. And that was with a featured back that completely eclipsed Gore.

    Without any question, Lynch is the superior back to Gore (At this specific time, not talking about careers here). Turbin is right on par with the combination of both hunter and James. I think its pretty straight forward that SEA is the better of the two position groups.



    Add to this it is widely agreed that Gore and his lackeys benefit from an offensive line that is the better unit of the two teams.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:04 am
  • NinerLifer wrote:http://www.profootballrosters.com/2013/07/07/top-5-nfl-running-back-corps/

    So what's your argument against this writers differing opinion about the RB corps?



    Thanks for providing an opinion link. Didn't see who the writer was and with no statistical back ground it just comes off as a Niner fans opinion.

    I do like how he address's Gore in ignoring he is 30 years old to simply say Year after year Gore gets it done. Even with more miles on the tires, Gore doesn't look to be slowing down and will once again be a keg cog in the 49ers offensive arsenal.

    Would anyone be surprised if Gore wasn't as effective this year as his past? It's is pretty well documented that 30 for a RB has been a major cliff. Enough so that any RB 30 and older are now in the prove it mold. The only ones assuming Gore will have no drop off Niner fans. For me I wouldn't be surprised either way, whether he remained productive or not. I wouldn't assume anything.

    For Lynch,

    Lynch has been the bell cow for the Seahawks the last two seasons and looks to continue that trend in 2013. Lynch has a violent running style that is mirrored by few. As long as he can stay healthy, another big season is on the horizon for the former Golden Bear.

    OK now why would you consider a 27 years as an injury risk and at the same time assume the 30 year old will just continue to produce? One answer. Fandom. Or the correct Niner spelling, Fandumb!!!

    Beyond that I wouldn't trade a single Seahawks RB for a Niner given comparable starter/back and that includes FB. MRob is way more beneficial for the team as a whole.

    The real scary part is I would trade you any of our Guards for Iupati. So imagine if Carpenter stays healthy and becomes what most believe he can. I think that would pretty much match the O-line quality between the two teams and statistically we already have the better group of backs. If Cable gets our O-line to where we believe he can with the existing personnel already here. We would suddenly be the much better unit.
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Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:07 am
  • Scottemojo wrote:I found your TE and O-line rankings a bit off. Why the focus on depth when most of these teams would trade their entire unit for Vernon Davis? Jared Cook is far less than the sum of the parts when you watch his actual playmaking results. Zach Miller can still dominate, look at the playoffs. Depth is nice, but not a requirement. Look at Detroits receiver corps. It is as deep as a kiddie pool after megatron, but who cares? Same goes for Vernon Davis.

    I felt like the whole exercise was about proving Seattle is better than SF. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it feels like.


    Bingo.
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