who is the CORE...?

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Re: who is the CORE...?
Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:30 am
  • Scottemojo wrote:
    justafan wrote:As good as Sherman is I don't think you can pay a CB 15 or 16 mil a year like Revis is getting.That is about what he is going to want.You let him walk.
    Off the top of my head I cant think of any dynasty that managed the salary cap that way.
    Imo the positions that deserve franchise money are QB LT a true No 1 WR and maybe another OL or 2 if you have the cap space.
    On D Thomas will be one of the core, the rest I think the jury is still out on.Most are replaceable I think.
    Unfortunately there will be some popular players released when the new contracts start coming around.Tough choices to be made thats for sure.

    No. You don't let him walk. After year three you propose a long term deal that is generous, but not dumb. Unless you have thought of a way to generate one turnover per game, which is damn near Richard's average. If he refuses that payday looking for the big score, you tag his ass in year 5, then negotiate again. Or trade him for draft capital.

    You are right, players will go that people love. But they don't have to go without compensation.



    Revis signed a contract that represents about 13% of the salary cap.In my mind only QBs are worth that kind of money unless you are talking about a game breaker and true shutdown like Sanders.Most of the time we over value what other teams will give for our players.By the time we come to negotiations and put him on the trading block other teams know we dont want to sign him and you lose the leverage, unless you find a team as dumb as the Bucs the FA ends up walking if you dont sign them.
    Franchising usually creates alot of bad blood and creates more problems than it solves unless its a rare player like Walt who quietly waits it out then comes in ready to kick ass,I dont see Sherman handling it with that much class or professionalism.
    We will be a victim of our draft success it happens to every team that has a run of picks like we have had.
    I have always thought there should be 2 salary cap pools one for allowing teams to keep the players they draft and reward them for drafting well and another for FA which would keep teams from buying an all star team like the Yankees try to do.
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Re: who is the CORE...?
Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:20 am
  • Tical21 wrote:Wilson
    Okung
    Sherman
    Thomas
    Lynch

    The truth is, you don't want a core. You want to keep drafting and replacing as many players as possible. That is how you stay good for a long time.

    Who was the core of the Colts for their perennial playoff run? The Pats? The Steelers? A couple guys, that is it. Those franchises were known for being able to replace their talent with younger, cheaper talent. It is a cold way to do it, but the best way to build a perennial contender. We want to be married to as few of these guys as possible.


    Peyton Manning
    Marvin Harrison
    Edgerrin James
    Jeff Saturday
    Dwight Freeney
    Reggie Wayne
    Tarik Glenn
    Mike Vanderjagt

    Those were Indianapolis' core players, and every one of them was kept until they were "past their best" (Edge played one more top quality season, Manning obviously still has it in him but was let go because they drafted the future in Luck).
    They did exactly what any good team does and kept their best players as long as they were good.

    And the same is true of the Pats and the Steelers - how many players can you think of have left those 3 teams and gone on to perform at a high level for a number of years? The reason those teams were so successful is because they kept a hold of their best players until they weren't their best players any longer.
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Re: who is the CORE...?
Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:24 am
  • themunn wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Wilson
    Okung
    Sherman
    Thomas
    Lynch

    The truth is, you don't want a core. You want to keep drafting and replacing as many players as possible. That is how you stay good for a long time.

    Who was the core of the Colts for their perennial playoff run? The Pats? The Steelers? A couple guys, that is it. Those franchises were known for being able to replace their talent with younger, cheaper talent. It is a cold way to do it, but the best way to build a perennial contender. We want to be married to as few of these guys as possible.


    Peyton Manning
    Marvin Harrison
    Edgerrin James
    Jeff Saturday
    Dwight Freeney
    Reggie Wayne
    Tarik Glenn
    Mike Vanderjagt

    Those were Indianapolis' core players, and every one of them was kept until they were "past their best" (Edge played one more top quality season, Manning obviously still has it in him but was let go because they drafted the future in Luck).
    They did exactly what any good team does and kept their best players as long as they were good.

    And the same is true of the Pats and the Steelers - how many players can you think of have left those 3 teams and gone on to perform at a high level for a number of years? The reason those teams were so successful is because they kept a hold of their best players until they weren't their best players any longer.


    The trick in that though is being able to identify when the drop happens. More to the point, identify when the drop is going to happen before it actually happens so you can wheel the asset of to a dumb team like the Bucs for some draft capital.

    I imagine it's SO easy as a GM to over-value your own player and hang on to them for too long as you can get attached to them because they're almost like your kids! You picked them, you coached them up, you plugged them into your system and you fostered their success. Now I have to say that my baby's no good anymore? I can see how some guys might have a problem with that... Though I suppose the GM's who have the tendency to do those kinds of things are probably not the most successful GM's around and probably won't last long enough with one team to be faced with that problem anyway... And I really don't see John & Co. having that kind of problem.
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Re: who is the CORE...?
Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:57 am
  • justafan wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:
    justafan wrote:As good as Sherman is I don't think you can pay a CB 15 or 16 mil a year like Revis is getting.That is about what he is going to want.You let him walk.
    Off the top of my head I cant think of any dynasty that managed the salary cap that way.
    Imo the positions that deserve franchise money are QB LT a true No 1 WR and maybe another OL or 2 if you have the cap space.
    On D Thomas will be one of the core, the rest I think the jury is still out on.Most are replaceable I think.
    Unfortunately there will be some popular players released when the new contracts start coming around.Tough choices to be made thats for sure.

    No. You don't let him walk. After year three you propose a long term deal that is generous, but not dumb. Unless you have thought of a way to generate one turnover per game, which is damn near Richard's average. If he refuses that payday looking for the big score, you tag his ass in year 5, then negotiate again. Or trade him for draft capital.

    You are right, players will go that people love. But they don't have to go without compensation.



    Revis signed a contract that represents about 13% of the salary cap.In my mind only QBs are worth that kind of money unless you are talking about a game breaker and true shutdown like Sanders.Most of the time we over value what other teams will give for our players.By the time we come to negotiations and put him on the trading block other teams know we dont want to sign him and you lose the leverage, unless you find a team as dumb as the Bucs the FA ends up walking if you dont sign them.
    Franchising usually creates alot of bad blood and creates more problems than it solves unless its a rare player like Walt who quietly waits it out then comes in ready to kick ass,I dont see Sherman handling it with that much class or professionalism.
    We will be a victim of our draft success it happens to every team that has a run of picks like we have had.
    I have always thought there should be 2 salary cap pools one for allowing teams to keep the players they draft and reward them for drafting well and another for FA which would keep teams from buying an all star team like the Yankees try to do.


    Key words: In your mind. That is the only place Sherman's as yet undetermined too big salary of the future exists. Along with his future anger about being franchised. If you think a minimum wage 5th rounder will be pissed about a guaranteed 10 million dollar franchise tag, you are inventing stuff to worry about.

    Also, don't worry about tying up too much money at cornerback. The current NFL model allows about 5 to 7 highly paid playmakers on a team. Key word: Playmakers. 11 turnovers for Sherman last year. He is a playmaker. An All Pro playmaker. Sherman makes offensive coordinators lose sleep. He isn't a corner, he is a presence with a football intellect. Remember when he made an uncalled blitz against the Jets based on a look they had preset a blitz for back in training camp? That wasn't a cornerback at work, it was a playmaker.

    And what is this concern about being a victim of our own draft success? What would you prefer? We have every reason to think the draft success will continue. The business model is working pretty good. Listen to a presser from John's first year, he specifically talks about losing players being a byproduct of building a team the right way. The alternative is much less pretty. Trust the model. It is working so far. If Sherman wants too much, it will be dealt with the time for it comes. The CBA won't even let them talk about an extension until the season is over.

    If you want to be concerned about any one thing based in fact, let it be that we have not yet established a pattern of extorting picks from other teams for our sought after free agent to be players.
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Re: who is the CORE...?
Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:55 pm
  • Im not worried or concerned, its just the nature of the NFL.You can't keep them all.If he stays he stays if he doesn't they will find a replacement.Maybe you are right that he will be happy with 10 mil.Personally I think he will want a better contract than Revis and if 16 mil is the market then he deserves it.I wouldn't pay it though.
    You make it sound like I am disappointed in the great drafts the FO we have had,again its just the nature of the business.You can't keep them all.With success will come teams over paying for players.It happens.
    We all have opinions on what positions and players should be considered core players and where the franchise type contracts should go.I hope we sign them all.But its not gonna happen
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Re: who is the CORE...?
Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:51 pm
  • Wow, this is all going a bit too far. First, Sherman would throw a fit if franchised. If he were to be happy being franchised, it would be the first time in NFL history.

    As far as paying him, it is all going to come down to how much the front office values the CB position and Sherman in particular. The other piece of the equation is what they would replace him with. If they think Thurmond or Lane are 95% of Sherman for 10% of the price, the best franchises would let Sherman walk, unless they thought that 5% improvement would put them over the top. Too much is yet to be determined.

    It is possible, maybe even probable, that they re-sign him, but it is also very possible that they don't. Go ahead and make yourselves dizzy speculating.
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Re: who is the CORE...?
Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:14 pm
  • I just think this thread needs more Beast Mode all around.
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