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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:32 pm 
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1 year can change a lot, If you asked this before last year I'm sure there would have been more people suggesting Mebane, Clemons, Red, ET, and Wright as our core cause they we the play makers on a top 5 defense.

So much has changed but "Core" guys have to be leaders and guys who's play elevates the players around them. I'd also throw out the word irreplaceable, they had to be guys that you can't put a value on, guys that are worth more to your team than another.

#1 Wilson
#2 Thomas
#3 Lynch
#4 Okung
#5 Chancellor
#6 Unger


Guys like Sherman, Harvin, Rice, Miller, Bryant, Mebane, Wright, Wagner, Tate are on the fringe but are not quite there for me.

I'd like to argue against Sherman as a core player, he might a top CB in the league but I think some is due to our system and the other DB's surrounding him. To me ET is more important to our defensive scheme and I think PC & JS have shown they value the saftey position more than the CB. We drafted ET in the 1st, paid Kam big money but have plugged the CB position with a UDFA form the CFL and a 5th round pick. I think WT3, Lane, Simon, or Maxwell would not lose us the game if they had to fill Sherm's shoes. Without ET and probably even Kam our defense would struggle.

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Wenhawk wrote:
1 year can change a lot, If you asked this before last year I'm sure there would have been more people suggesting Mebane, Clemons, Red, ET, and Wright as our core cause they we the play makers on a top 5 defense.

So much has changed but "Core" guys have to be leaders and guys who's play elevates the players around them. I'd also throw out the word irreplaceable, they had to be guys that you can't put a value on, guys that are worth more to your team than another.

#1 Wilson
#2 Thomas
#3 Lynch
#4 Okung
#5 Chancellor
#6 Unger


Guys like Sherman, Harvin, Rice, Miller, Bryant, Mebane, Wright, Wagner, Tate are on the fringe but are not quite there for me.

I'd like to argue against Sherman as a core player, he might a top CB in the league but I think some is due to our system and the other DB's surrounding him. To me ET is more important to our defensive scheme and I think PC & JS have shown they value the saftey position more than the CB. We drafted ET in the 1st, paid Kam big money but have plugged the CB position with a UDFA form the CFL and a 5th round pick. I think WT3, Lane, Simon, or Maxwell would not lose us the game if they had to fill Sherm's shoes. Without ET and probably even Kam our defense would struggle.



I don't mind your list but a RB that is 28-29 and has had 2 backups/replacements drafted the last two years?


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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:21 pm 
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Wenhawk wrote:
I'd like to argue against Sherman as a core player, he might a top CB in the league but I think some is due to our system and the other DB's surrounding him. To me ET is more important to our defensive scheme and I think PC & JS have shown they value the saftey position more than the CB. We drafted ET in the 1st, paid Kam big money but have plugged the CB position with a UDFA form the CFL and a 5th round pick. I think WT3, Lane, Simon, or Maxwell would not lose us the game if they had to fill Sherm's shoes. Without ET and probably even Kam our defense would struggle.


Aside from his league leading cover rate, which I doubt ET deserves (or wants) any credit for, Sherman is a core player because his fearlessness rallies his teammates. His loud mouth lets the world know Seattle's a force to be reckoned with, even when ESPN is trying to ignore them.


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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:43 pm 
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Core for the next two to three years:

Wilson
Lynch
Okung
Unger

+

L.O.B. (Browner, Chancellor, Thomas, and Sherman)

I feel like if we can retain those pieces over the next 3 years, there's no way the team isn't at least competitive every year regardless of what happens around them. Physical run attack (function of Beastmode + line play), the secondary, and Russell Wilson comprise the core identity of the Seattle Seahawks.

Over the next 5-6 years, I see Wilson, Okung, Unger, Thomas, Chancellor and Sherman as the core pieces to an elite team. Obviously, Harvin has a big contract, but right now, I see him as the guy that puts us over the top. As we get a chance to see how he and the team mix and evolve, he'll then likely be part of the discussion as a core piece.


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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:46 pm 
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Picking up on the "irreplaceable" discussion; there's only two guys that fit that description IMO: Russell Wilson and Earl Thomas.

RW is fairly self explanatory (he's amazing) but Earl's range is siiiiiiiiick. That crazy range allows him to play as the single high safely, which is a ridiculously hard thing to do. Earl playing single high allows the secondary to do all kinds of other crazy things with Kam, and this year will translate into doing crazy things with Kam and Antoine Winfield. Earl's amazing skill set allows the defense to do what it do, and in that way Earl is irreplaceable.

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Speaking of that, I don't know how many people caught this, but Russell said yesterday that he and Earl have a spent the last six months exchanging notes and watching tape together to better understand defensive/offensive looks.


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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:22 pm 
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Wilson
Sherman
Lynch
Thomas
Rice
Kam

Harvin is on the list if he plays as projected. Only two of those player's on that list are a must sign, Wilson and Sherman. Earl is a very good free safety but we'll be ok without him .Wilson and Sherman are crucial that's how I see it. Lynch is on his last deal, i'm not exactly sure about Rice's contract but if he is resigned it will be for less money than he's currently making that's a given. I think they should do everything they can to keep Earl but if it's him or Sherman i'm keeping Sherman he's the better player of the two.


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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:47 am 
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Long term might be different but right now Lynch is in the very nucleus of the core of this team. In fact, I would call it hardcore. Lynch, Wilson and the Legion of Boom.

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:54 am 
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Tical21 wrote:
Wilson
Okung
Sherman
Thomas
Lynch

The truth is, you don't want a core. You want to keep drafting and replacing as many players as possible. That is how you stay good for a long time.

Who was the core of the Colts for their perennial playoff run? The Pats? The Steelers? A couple guys, that is it. Those franchises were known for being able to replace their talent with younger, cheaper talent. It is a cold way to do it, but the best way to build a perennial contender. We want to be married to as few of these guys as possible.


The Ravens of the last decade disagree with you

Edit: Ex-Ravens, sorry


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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:33 am 
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fsmassey wrote:
Tical21 wrote:
Wilson
Okung
Sherman
Thomas
Lynch

The truth is, you don't want a core. You want to keep drafting and replacing as many players as possible. That is how you stay good for a long time.

Who was the core of the Colts for their perennial playoff run? The Pats? The Steelers? A couple guys, that is it. Those franchises were known for being able to replace their talent with younger, cheaper talent. It is a cold way to do it, but the best way to build a perennial contender. We want to be married to as few of these guys as possible.


The Ravens of the last decade disagree with you

Edit: Ex-Ravens, sorry

The Ravens are the prime example! They stayed relevant for a decade with Lewis, Reed, Ogden and Suggs. Now their entire core is Flacco, Rice and Ngata. Where are all their other LB's? CB's? DE's? Offensive players? Do they have a 10 man core? Did they overpay Kruger? Boldin? Reed? Aren't those guys people you might have considered "core" people?

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:43 am 
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The moral to the story is that we've already paid a bunch of guys, and have a bunch more to come. As much as we all hate it and love our guys, there are going to be some brutally painful decisions coming. The good news, is that we have a fantastic front office that is going to be able to replace this guys with other folks that will become household names. We're going to see a few of the Sherman, Thomas, Tate, Wright types failing to be signed. Just be thankful that we have a staff that is as good as it gets at finding Lane, Guy, Harper, Smith etc. As much as I hate to say it, the Steelers have been an absolute model franchise. The Packers just had to let Chuck Woodson walk. The Pats got rid of Richard freaking Seymour. How many LB's have the Steelers replaced? WR's? If you're doing it right, you don't have to overpay your own guys.

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:50 am 
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As good as Sherman is I don't think you can pay a CB 15 or 16 mil a year like Revis is getting.That is about what he is going to want.You let him walk.
Off the top of my head I cant think of any dynasty that managed the salary cap that way.
Imo the positions that deserve franchise money are QB LT a true No 1 WR and maybe another OL or 2 if you have the cap space.
On D Thomas will be one of the core, the rest I think the jury is still out on.Most are replaceable I think.
Unfortunately there will be some popular players released when the new contracts start coming around.Tough choices to be made thats for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:59 am 
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justafan wrote:
As good as Sherman is I don't think you can pay a CB 15 or 16 mil a year like Revis is getting.That is about what he is going to want.You let him walk.
Off the top of my head I cant think of any dynasty that managed the salary cap that way.
Imo the positions that deserve franchise money are QB LT a true No 1 WR and maybe another OL or 2 if you have the cap space.
On D Thomas will be one of the core, the rest I think the jury is still out on.Most are replaceable I think.
Unfortunately there will be some popular players released when the new contracts start coming around.Tough choices to be made thats for sure.

No. You don't let him walk. After year three you propose a long term deal that is generous, but not dumb. Unless you have thought of a way to generate one turnover per game, which is damn near Richard's average. If he refuses that payday looking for the big score, you tag his ass in year 5, then negotiate again. Or trade him for draft capital.

You are right, players will go that people love. But they don't have to go without compensation.

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:29 am 
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Scottemojo wrote:
justafan wrote:
As good as Sherman is I don't think you can pay a CB 15 or 16 mil a year like Revis is getting.That is about what he is going to want.You let him walk.
Off the top of my head I cant think of any dynasty that managed the salary cap that way.
Imo the positions that deserve franchise money are QB LT a true No 1 WR and maybe another OL or 2 if you have the cap space.
On D Thomas will be one of the core, the rest I think the jury is still out on.Most are replaceable I think.
Unfortunately there will be some popular players released when the new contracts start coming around.Tough choices to be made thats for sure.

No. You don't let him walk. After year three you propose a long term deal that is generous, but not dumb. Unless you have thought of a way to generate one turnover per game, which is damn near Richard's average. If he refuses that payday looking for the big score, you tag his ass in year 5, then negotiate again. Or trade him for draft capital.

You are right, players will go that people love. But they don't have to go without compensation.


I think that's a big BIG thing. If we can identify those guys who aren't going to be able to fit into the long term plans and wheel them off for picks in their last year (instead of pigeon holing ourselves by tossing money we don't have at them or letting them walk for nothing), we should be able to use those picks to rebuild the supporting cast with the same type of good, young and CHEAP players that this current team is built out of.

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:15 am 
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Russ
Okung
Earl
Sherman

The rest can be plugged in with new players over time.


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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:12 pm 
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justafan wrote:
As good as Sherman is I don't think you can pay a CB 15 or 16 mil a year like Revis is getting.That is about what he is going to want.You let him walk.
Off the top of my head I cant think of any dynasty that managed the salary cap that way.

Sure you can, if you play such a style where a corner is important enough. Not that long ago, the best corner in the game was rented at higher prices than this for championships. Not saying Sherman is as good as Deion, but I think you can apply the same philosophy.

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:17 pm 
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pehawk wrote:
This is a great gawd damn thread. Regardless of author, it's a good one. That's very painful to admit because a Canadian touched me when I was a child...and it was either Bryan Adams or CANHAWK...........

I'll bet that Cuts Like A Knife.

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:46 pm 
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Tical21 wrote:
fsmassey wrote:
Tical21 wrote:
Wilson
Okung
Sherman
Thomas
Lynch

The truth is, you don't want a core. You want to keep drafting and replacing as many players as possible. That is how you stay good for a long time.

Who was the core of the Colts for their perennial playoff run? The Pats? The Steelers? A couple guys, that is it. Those franchises were known for being able to replace their talent with younger, cheaper talent. It is a cold way to do it, but the best way to build a perennial contender. We want to be married to as few of these guys as possible.


The Ravens of the last decade disagree with you

Edit: Ex-Ravens, sorry

The Ravens are the prime example! They stayed relevant for a decade with Lewis, Reed, Ogden and Suggs. Now their entire core is Flacco, Rice and Ngata. Where are all their other LB's? CB's? DE's? Offensive players? Do they have a 10 man core? Did they overpay Kruger? Boldin? Reed? Aren't those guys people you might have considered "core" people?


I can agree with the idea that the core is small, but the notion that teams don't stick to cores is ridiculous. The niners stuck with Alex Smith, Frank Gore, Vernon Davis, Joe Staley for the better of a decade, and just now, 8 years later one piece is replaced.

We could talk about the core of the Steelers, too, because they've been around for a long time too.

What I'm saying is that this idea that the league's mindset is just to recycle players is ridiculous. You keep really good players, even as they age. You only replace it if it needs replacing or if its a clear upgrade in cap space. This Seahawks team is just full of those really good players.

A better question would've been which starters are the most replacable


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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:19 pm 
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hawksfansinceday1 wrote:
pehawk wrote:
This is a great gawd damn thread. Regardless of author, it's a good one. That's very painful to admit because a Canadian touched me when I was a child...and it was either Bryan Adams or CANHAWK...........

I'll bet that Cuts Like A Knife.

But it feels so right...

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:37 am 
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CANHawk wrote:
hawksfansinceday1 wrote:
pehawk wrote:
This is a great gawd damn thread. Regardless of author, it's a good one. That's very painful to admit because a Canadian touched me when I was a child...and it was either Bryan Adams or CANHAWK...........

I'll bet that Cuts Like A Knife.

But it feels so right...

:bow:

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:30 am 
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Scottemojo wrote:
justafan wrote:
As good as Sherman is I don't think you can pay a CB 15 or 16 mil a year like Revis is getting.That is about what he is going to want.You let him walk.
Off the top of my head I cant think of any dynasty that managed the salary cap that way.
Imo the positions that deserve franchise money are QB LT a true No 1 WR and maybe another OL or 2 if you have the cap space.
On D Thomas will be one of the core, the rest I think the jury is still out on.Most are replaceable I think.
Unfortunately there will be some popular players released when the new contracts start coming around.Tough choices to be made thats for sure.

No. You don't let him walk. After year three you propose a long term deal that is generous, but not dumb. Unless you have thought of a way to generate one turnover per game, which is damn near Richard's average. If he refuses that payday looking for the big score, you tag his ass in year 5, then negotiate again. Or trade him for draft capital.

You are right, players will go that people love. But they don't have to go without compensation.



Revis signed a contract that represents about 13% of the salary cap.In my mind only QBs are worth that kind of money unless you are talking about a game breaker and true shutdown like Sanders.Most of the time we over value what other teams will give for our players.By the time we come to negotiations and put him on the trading block other teams know we dont want to sign him and you lose the leverage, unless you find a team as dumb as the Bucs the FA ends up walking if you dont sign them.
Franchising usually creates alot of bad blood and creates more problems than it solves unless its a rare player like Walt who quietly waits it out then comes in ready to kick ass,I dont see Sherman handling it with that much class or professionalism.
We will be a victim of our draft success it happens to every team that has a run of picks like we have had.
I have always thought there should be 2 salary cap pools one for allowing teams to keep the players they draft and reward them for drafting well and another for FA which would keep teams from buying an all star team like the Yankees try to do.


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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:20 am 
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Tical21 wrote:
Wilson
Okung
Sherman
Thomas
Lynch

The truth is, you don't want a core. You want to keep drafting and replacing as many players as possible. That is how you stay good for a long time.

Who was the core of the Colts for their perennial playoff run? The Pats? The Steelers? A couple guys, that is it. Those franchises were known for being able to replace their talent with younger, cheaper talent. It is a cold way to do it, but the best way to build a perennial contender. We want to be married to as few of these guys as possible.


Peyton Manning
Marvin Harrison
Edgerrin James
Jeff Saturday
Dwight Freeney
Reggie Wayne
Tarik Glenn
Mike Vanderjagt

Those were Indianapolis' core players, and every one of them was kept until they were "past their best" (Edge played one more top quality season, Manning obviously still has it in him but was let go because they drafted the future in Luck).
They did exactly what any good team does and kept their best players as long as they were good.

And the same is true of the Pats and the Steelers - how many players can you think of have left those 3 teams and gone on to perform at a high level for a number of years? The reason those teams were so successful is because they kept a hold of their best players until they weren't their best players any longer.


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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:24 am 
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themunn wrote:
Tical21 wrote:
Wilson
Okung
Sherman
Thomas
Lynch

The truth is, you don't want a core. You want to keep drafting and replacing as many players as possible. That is how you stay good for a long time.

Who was the core of the Colts for their perennial playoff run? The Pats? The Steelers? A couple guys, that is it. Those franchises were known for being able to replace their talent with younger, cheaper talent. It is a cold way to do it, but the best way to build a perennial contender. We want to be married to as few of these guys as possible.


Peyton Manning
Marvin Harrison
Edgerrin James
Jeff Saturday
Dwight Freeney
Reggie Wayne
Tarik Glenn
Mike Vanderjagt

Those were Indianapolis' core players, and every one of them was kept until they were "past their best" (Edge played one more top quality season, Manning obviously still has it in him but was let go because they drafted the future in Luck).
They did exactly what any good team does and kept their best players as long as they were good.

And the same is true of the Pats and the Steelers - how many players can you think of have left those 3 teams and gone on to perform at a high level for a number of years? The reason those teams were so successful is because they kept a hold of their best players until they weren't their best players any longer.


The trick in that though is being able to identify when the drop happens. More to the point, identify when the drop is going to happen before it actually happens so you can wheel the asset of to a dumb team like the Bucs for some draft capital.

I imagine it's SO easy as a GM to over-value your own player and hang on to them for too long as you can get attached to them because they're almost like your kids! You picked them, you coached them up, you plugged them into your system and you fostered their success. Now I have to say that my baby's no good anymore? I can see how some guys might have a problem with that... Though I suppose the GM's who have the tendency to do those kinds of things are probably not the most successful GM's around and probably won't last long enough with one team to be faced with that problem anyway... And I really don't see John & Co. having that kind of problem.

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:57 am 
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justafan wrote:
Scottemojo wrote:
justafan wrote:
As good as Sherman is I don't think you can pay a CB 15 or 16 mil a year like Revis is getting.That is about what he is going to want.You let him walk.
Off the top of my head I cant think of any dynasty that managed the salary cap that way.
Imo the positions that deserve franchise money are QB LT a true No 1 WR and maybe another OL or 2 if you have the cap space.
On D Thomas will be one of the core, the rest I think the jury is still out on.Most are replaceable I think.
Unfortunately there will be some popular players released when the new contracts start coming around.Tough choices to be made thats for sure.

No. You don't let him walk. After year three you propose a long term deal that is generous, but not dumb. Unless you have thought of a way to generate one turnover per game, which is damn near Richard's average. If he refuses that payday looking for the big score, you tag his ass in year 5, then negotiate again. Or trade him for draft capital.

You are right, players will go that people love. But they don't have to go without compensation.



Revis signed a contract that represents about 13% of the salary cap.In my mind only QBs are worth that kind of money unless you are talking about a game breaker and true shutdown like Sanders.Most of the time we over value what other teams will give for our players.By the time we come to negotiations and put him on the trading block other teams know we dont want to sign him and you lose the leverage, unless you find a team as dumb as the Bucs the FA ends up walking if you dont sign them.
Franchising usually creates alot of bad blood and creates more problems than it solves unless its a rare player like Walt who quietly waits it out then comes in ready to kick ass,I dont see Sherman handling it with that much class or professionalism.
We will be a victim of our draft success it happens to every team that has a run of picks like we have had.
I have always thought there should be 2 salary cap pools one for allowing teams to keep the players they draft and reward them for drafting well and another for FA which would keep teams from buying an all star team like the Yankees try to do.


Key words: In your mind. That is the only place Sherman's as yet undetermined too big salary of the future exists. Along with his future anger about being franchised. If you think a minimum wage 5th rounder will be pissed about a guaranteed 10 million dollar franchise tag, you are inventing stuff to worry about.

Also, don't worry about tying up too much money at cornerback. The current NFL model allows about 5 to 7 highly paid playmakers on a team. Key word: Playmakers. 11 turnovers for Sherman last year. He is a playmaker. An All Pro playmaker. Sherman makes offensive coordinators lose sleep. He isn't a corner, he is a presence with a football intellect. Remember when he made an uncalled blitz against the Jets based on a look they had preset a blitz for back in training camp? That wasn't a cornerback at work, it was a playmaker.

And what is this concern about being a victim of our own draft success? What would you prefer? We have every reason to think the draft success will continue. The business model is working pretty good. Listen to a presser from John's first year, he specifically talks about losing players being a byproduct of building a team the right way. The alternative is much less pretty. Trust the model. It is working so far. If Sherman wants too much, it will be dealt with the time for it comes. The CBA won't even let them talk about an extension until the season is over.

If you want to be concerned about any one thing based in fact, let it be that we have not yet established a pattern of extorting picks from other teams for our sought after free agent to be players.

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:55 pm 
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Posts: 492
Im not worried or concerned, its just the nature of the NFL.You can't keep them all.If he stays he stays if he doesn't they will find a replacement.Maybe you are right that he will be happy with 10 mil.Personally I think he will want a better contract than Revis and if 16 mil is the market then he deserves it.I wouldn't pay it though.
You make it sound like I am disappointed in the great drafts the FO we have had,again its just the nature of the business.You can't keep them all.With success will come teams over paying for players.It happens.
We all have opinions on what positions and players should be considered core players and where the franchise type contracts should go.I hope we sign them all.But its not gonna happen


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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:51 pm 
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Wow, this is all going a bit too far. First, Sherman would throw a fit if franchised. If he were to be happy being franchised, it would be the first time in NFL history.

As far as paying him, it is all going to come down to how much the front office values the CB position and Sherman in particular. The other piece of the equation is what they would replace him with. If they think Thurmond or Lane are 95% of Sherman for 10% of the price, the best franchises would let Sherman walk, unless they thought that 5% improvement would put them over the top. Too much is yet to be determined.

It is possible, maybe even probable, that they re-sign him, but it is also very possible that they don't. Go ahead and make yourselves dizzy speculating.

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 Post subject: Re: who is the CORE...?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:14 pm 
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I just think this thread needs more Beast Mode all around.


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