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 Post subject: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 3:11 pm 
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When Russell was first drafted all I heard from the so-called experts is that he was too small to be successful. I too bought into that and thought he would be a Seneca type backup at best. What these "experts" and I for that matter didn't realize (outside of his incredible leadership skills and professionalism) was that what seems to hold many small QB's back is not the height but the size of the hand. Russell had the largest hands of any QB coming out last year (bigger than even 6'6" Osweiller). When you have that much hand and control on the ball you can do just about anything you want. I do not have a large hand and have trouble throwing a regulation size ball with accuracy and velocity. When I pick up a smaller ball to throw I feel like I can put it anywhere and with much more speed. This is what many did not understand with Russell. It's the hand size that holds most of these smaller QB's back not the height.

The reason I mention this, is to this day I still here many analysts on tv talking about his height. Maybe if they did a little more research they would see there is more to it.


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 3:31 pm 
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It's also his freakishly long arms and over the top delivery that allow him to throw the ball as if he were 6'3".

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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 3:32 pm 
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seabowl wrote:
When Russell was first drafted all I heard from the so-called experts is that he was too small to be successful. I too bought into that and thought he would be a Seneca type backup at best. What these "experts" and I for that matter didn't realize (outside of his incredible leadership skills and professionalism) was that what seems to hold many small QB's back is not the height but the size of the hand. Russell had the largest hands of any QB coming out last year (bigger than even 6'6" Osweiller). When you have that much hand and control on the ball you can do just about anything you want. I do not have a large hand and have trouble throwing a regulation size ball with accuracy and velocity. When I pick up a smaller ball to throw I feel like I can put it anywhere and with much more speed. This is what many did not understand with Russell. It's the hand size that holds most of these smaller QB's back not the height.

The reason I mention this, is to this day I still here many analysts on tv talking about his height. Maybe if they did a little more research they would see there is more to it.


Sorry, but no. Your hypothesis is not valid. If this were true wouldn't it suggest that tall QBs with small hands wouldn't be successful?

Kaepernick 9 1/8" hands
Tannehill 9" hands

Mike Vick is short and has 8 1/2" hands

Jim Druckenmiller had 11 1/4" hands.... he sucked.

While Im sure it helps him grip the ball and spin it.....its more about finding passing lanes, anticipation, accuracy and the ability to see down field for shorter QBs.

Hand size does not contribute much to the velocity at which you can throw fwiw. Not much about what you said is correct...with the exception of RW has large hands.

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Last edited by ImTheScientist on Fri May 24, 2013 3:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 3:33 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 3:44 pm 
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seabowl wrote:
When Russell was first drafted all I heard from the so-called experts is that he was too small to be successful. I too bought into that and thought he would be a Seneca type backup at best. What these "experts" and I for that matter didn't realize (outside of his incredible leadership skills and professionalism) was that what seems to hold many small QB's back is not the height but the size of the hand. Russell had the largest hands of any QB coming out last year (bigger than even 6'6" Osweiller). When you have that much hand and control on the ball you can do just about anything you want. I do not have a large hand and have trouble throwing a regulation size ball with accuracy and velocity. When I pick up a smaller ball to throw I feel like I can put it anywhere and with much more speed. This is what many did not understand with Russell. It's the hand size that holds most of these smaller QB's back not the height.

The reason I mention this, is to this day I still here many analysts on tv talking about his height. Maybe if they did a little more research they would see there is more to it.


I think you are carrying this obsession a bit too far :mrgreen:
"Big hands, you know you're the one" :twisted: :34853_doh:


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 4:14 pm 
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T-Sizzle wrote:
seabowl wrote:
When Russell was first drafted all I heard from the so-called experts is that he was too small to be successful. I too bought into that and thought he would be a Seneca type backup at best. What these "experts" and I for that matter didn't realize (outside of his incredible leadership skills and professionalism) was that what seems to hold many small QB's back is not the height but the size of the hand. Russell had the largest hands of any QB coming out last year (bigger than even 6'6" Osweiller). When you have that much hand and control on the ball you can do just about anything you want. I do not have a large hand and have trouble throwing a regulation size ball with accuracy and velocity. When I pick up a smaller ball to throw I feel like I can put it anywhere and with much more speed. This is what many did not understand with Russell. It's the hand size that holds most of these smaller QB's back not the height.

The reason I mention this, is to this day I still here many analysts on tv talking about his height. Maybe if they did a little more research they would see there is more to it.


Sorry, but no. Your hypothesis is not valid. If this were true wouldn't it suggest that tall QBs with small hands wouldn't be successful?

Kaepernick 9 1/8" hands
Tannehill 9" hands

Mike Vick is short and has 8 1/2" hands

Jim Druckenmiller had 11 1/4" hands.... he sucked.

While Im sure it helps him grip the ball and spin it.....its more about finding passing lanes, anticipation, accuracy and the ability to see down field for shorter QBs.

Hand size does not contribute much to the velocity at which you can throw fwiw. Not much about what you said is correct...with the exception of RW has large hands.


You obviously didn't get the point. The point is if your SHORT and you have small hands, (as most short players do) that is 2 negatives against you from the start. THe fact that he's short but has exceptional hand size and arm length allows him to control the ball in adverse conditions.

If what you say is true- that hand size is meaningless-- how is it that Buffalo drafted EJ Manual and cited the fact that he had big hands as a factor in their decision making? Clearly, other GM's feel that hand size is an important attribute.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... ather-play

"We went back and researched all the teams that played in the Northeast in the bad weather and all the success they had with quarterbacks and the common traits that they had," Marrone said. "They were big and had big hands and were able to throw the ball in tough weather and that's what we were looking at."
Manuel had the biggest hands (10 3/8 inches) and longest arms (35 inches) of any of the quarterbacks at the 2013 NFL Scouting Combine.


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Hand size and height are both important for different reasons. Hand size helps with ball control, but size is important in seeing the whole field. Russell has found ways around this by being extremely good at locating lanes and moving around inside the pocket to improve his field vision.

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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 4:46 pm 
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jlwaters1 wrote:
T-Sizzle wrote:
seabowl wrote:
When Russell was first drafted all I heard from the so-called experts is that he was too small to be successful. I too bought into that and thought he would be a Seneca type backup at best. What these "experts" and I for that matter didn't realize (outside of his incredible leadership skills and professionalism) was that what seems to hold many small QB's back is not the height but the size of the hand. Russell had the largest hands of any QB coming out last year (bigger than even 6'6" Osweiller). When you have that much hand and control on the ball you can do just about anything you want. I do not have a large hand and have trouble throwing a regulation size ball with accuracy and velocity. When I pick up a smaller ball to throw I feel like I can put it anywhere and with much more speed. This is what many did not understand with Russell. It's the hand size that holds most of these smaller QB's back not the height.

The reason I mention this, is to this day I still here many analysts on tv talking about his height. Maybe if they did a little more research they would see there is more to it.


Sorry, but no. Your hypothesis is not valid. If this were true wouldn't it suggest that tall QBs with small hands wouldn't be successful?

Kaepernick 9 1/8" hands
Tannehill 9" hands

Mike Vick is short and has 8 1/2" hands

Jim Druckenmiller had 11 1/4" hands.... he sucked.

While Im sure it helps him grip the ball and spin it.....its more about finding passing lanes, anticipation, accuracy and the ability to see down field for shorter QBs.

Hand size does not contribute much to the velocity at which you can throw fwiw. Not much about what you said is correct...with the exception of RW has large hands.


You obviously didn't get the point. The point is if your SHORT and you have small hands, (as most short players do) that is 2 negatives against you from the start. THe fact that he's short but has exceptional hand size and arm length allows him to control the ball in adverse conditions.

If what you say is true- that hand size is meaningless-- how is it that Buffalo drafted EJ Manual and cited the fact that he had big hands as a factor in their decision making? Clearly, other GM's feel that hand size is an important attribute.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... ather-play

"We went back and researched all the teams that played in the Northeast in the bad weather and all the success they had with quarterbacks and the common traits that they had," Marrone said. "They were big and had big hands and were able to throw the ball in tough weather and that's what we were looking at."
Manuel had the biggest hands (10 3/8 inches) and longest arms (35 inches) of any of the quarterbacks at the 2013 NFL Scouting Combine.


Way to put words into the OPs and my mouth!

Did I say hand size is meaningless? No.

Did I say the OP's post was not valid? Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:27 pm 
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I forget the article but they showed a correlation between a QB's tendency to fumble or not and the size of their hands. Moral of the story was smaller hands meant a higher likelihood of a QB fumbling the ball and RW's hands are some ball-protecting bear mitts of justice. Increased control and velocity? Maybe a tiny bit but it'd be such a subtle improvement that I'm not sure we could realistically measure the difference from the collection of all the mechanisms working together on a given throw to create that velocity. No matter how feasibly large a hand is, it just doesn't pack that much strength on it when it comes to the entire throwing motion.


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 8:15 pm 
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"Russell Wilson's hands are some ball-protecting bear mitts of justice"...
That's funny :)

Preach it brother!


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 9:02 pm 
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kigenzun wrote:
"Russell Wilson's hands are some ball-protecting bear mitts of justice"...
That's funny :)

Preach it brother!


Yes, Birds likes dem ball-cradling, er 'protecting' mitts. Any pics of RW in a thong? Bwaaaahaha!


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 9:19 pm 
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Dave Kreig had very small hands. I love him for his time with the hawks but he ended as the qb with the most fumbles in history.

That may have changed now but was true for a time.

Love you Dave, and you did some great things but u did fumble a lot. (Small Hands)

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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 9:41 pm 
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rainger wrote:
Dave Kreig had very small hands. I love him for his time with the hawks but he ended as the qb with the most fumbles in history.

That may have changed now but was true for a time.

Love you Dave, and you did some great things but u did fumble a lot. (Small Hands)


Hand size is very important when you play in inclement weather a lot. It's one if the first things Chip Kelly looks for, and he might know a few things about that.


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 10:32 pm 
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HawKnPeppa wrote:
rainger wrote:
Dave Kreig had very small hands. I love him for his time with the hawks but he ended as the qb with the most fumbles in history.

That may have changed now but was true for a time.

Love you Dave, and you did some great things but u did fumble a lot. (Small Hands)


Hand size is very important when you play in inclement weather a lot. It's one if the first things Chip Kelly looks for, and he might know a few things about that.


Indeed, and it's not just inclement whether where having an edge in ball handling is critical. I've posted this quote before where I found it in the original source, a seminar by Chip Kelly to high school coaches:

"If the quarterback is not tall, look at his hands. That is the biggest coaching point to finding a quarterback. How big are his hands, and how well can he control the football? The height of the quarterback is not the important thing. No one playing quarterback throws over the line. They throw through lanes in the lineman. The important thing is the size of his hands." - Chip Kelly

Since then, I see other people have found it, e.g., SB Nation's Eagle's blog:

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2013 ... is-on-size

...where they discuss the quote a bit and how it fits into Kelly's position on having various size standards for players.


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 10:46 pm 
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One thing about hand size is that it's always beneficial. There's never an advantage to smaller hands. OTOH, there's a trade-off for height. Smaller QBs are quicker and more elusive. An offense can be structured to a QB's strengths. Manziel is going to be another short star NFL QB. As elusiveness becomes a more prized attribute in a QB, how many more will follow.

A confounder for deciding how important height is in a QB is systemic bias. People like their QBs to be tall, handsome leaders of men, quite apart from their effect on winning games. Not that they think of it that way, but humans have a hard time disassociating their judgments from appearances. People who look this way don't have to play as well to get the job. Moreover, when "everyone knows" that 99/100 short QBs will fail, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Each new level of competition a short QB graduates to has a layer of coaches ready to write you off on the soonest pretext.

Someone should do a randomized, double-blind study. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:50 am 
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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:56 am 
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formido wrote:
HawKnPeppa wrote:
rainger wrote:
Dave Kreig had very small hands. I love him for his time with the hawks but he ended as the qb with the most fumbles in history.

That may have changed now but was true for a time.

Love you Dave, and you did some great things but u did fumble a lot. (Small Hands)


Hand size is very important when you play in inclement weather a lot. It's one if the first things Chip Kelly looks for, and he might know a few things about that.


Indeed, and it's not just inclement whether where having an edge in ball handling is critical. I've posted this quote before where I found it in the original source, a seminar by Chip Kelly to high school coaches:

"If the quarterback is not tall, look at his hands. That is the biggest coaching point to finding a quarterback. How big are his hands, and how well can he control the football? The height of the quarterback is not the important thing. No one playing quarterback throws over the line. They throw through lanes in the lineman. The important thing is the size of his hands." - Chip Kelly

Since then, I see other people have found it, e.g., SB Nation's Eagle's blog:

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2013 ... is-on-size

...where they discuss the quote a bit and how it fits into Kelly's position on having various size standards for players.


Great find to back up the hypothesis. I also looked up Drew Brees hand size. 10 1/4. My initial comment was not meant to insinuate that if you have a large hand you are going to be successful. It was to point out that hand size is an underrated aspect that few talk about when looking at or for a QB.


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 8:33 am 
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Dave Krieg spent a lot of time running for his life in those days. So a lot of those fumbles were attributable to a lack of protection from his O-Line.

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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 8:43 am 
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Evil_Shenanigans wrote:
Dave Krieg spent a lot of time running for his life in those days. So a lot of those fumbles were attributable to a lack of protection from his O-Line.


Krieg also is 3rd in fumbles, I believe behind Moon and Elway.


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:05 pm 
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Now yes, he did lead it for a while, and the small hands thing was true, as you transfer the ball and get ready to throw you have the ball essentially being held by one hand, or when your on the run trying to make a throw. That was where Dave had a lot of his issues, that and a wet ball would be really hard to control with one hand.

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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:23 pm 
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pehawk wrote:
Evil_Shenanigans wrote:
Dave Krieg spent a lot of time running for his life in those days. So a lot of those fumbles were attributable to a lack of protection from his O-Line.


Krieg also is 3rd in fumbles, I believe behind Moon and Elway.

He is now but he was number one for a number of years mind you he had a very long career going to teams after the Hawks. Moon passed him later. Playing lots of games has a way of getting your numbers up :) According to this info Krieg is still number 2 followed by Farve.

http://www.nfl.com/history/randf/records/indiv/fumbles

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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:25 pm 
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I recall that Dave Krieg had the ball slip out of his hand at the top of his wind-up - numerous times resulting in backward passes. It wasn't very pretty. But, his small hands also completed a lot of decent passes and the Seahawks were always competitive and fun to watch with him at the helm.

:49ersmall:

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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:39 pm 
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T-Sizzle wrote:

Way to put words into the OPs and my mouth!

Did I say hand size is meaningless? No.

Did I say the OP's post was not valid? Yes.

Fizzled again eh T-Sizzle? :16:


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 4:04 pm 
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Hand-size is more about ball control. That's one reason Vick fumbles so much.


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 3:56 am 
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It's not the hands, it's just about every attribute out there EXCEPT height.
In fact, of all of the things evaluators look for in a QB, height should be the least important, and I felt this before Wilson was drafted too.

My reasoning - a very good example can be taken from my experience yesterday where I was at a music festival. I'm a few mm short of 6'2, however, in a crowd of people at a gig, generally this means I can stand where I want and see everything - until anyone 6'0 or taller stands directly in front of me, at which point I need to shift a a few inches left or right because their head is in the way.
That's fine, but considering the average O-Lineman is around 6'4, plus an extra inch on top due to helmet height, realistically you need a QB 6'9 or taller to comfortably see OVER other linemen, the majority of QBs fall in the 6'2-6'5 range, and so need to see between where they stand to find WRs.

Now don't get that confused with the fact a QB needs to be able to throw the ball over the hands of D-Linemen - this is because of delivery rather than height though, a short QB with an over the top delivery will almost always be able to clear those raised hands, however that's rare skill for QBs too, and you'll find a lot of taller QBs get away with having a poorer delivery due to their ability to get away with it thanks to their height


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 8:17 am 
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rainger wrote:
pehawk wrote:
Evil_Shenanigans wrote:
Dave Krieg spent a lot of time running for his life in those days. So a lot of those fumbles were attributable to a lack of protection from his O-Line.


Krieg also is 3rd in fumbles, I believe behind Moon and Elway.

He is now but he was number one for a number of years mind you he had a very long career going to teams after the Hawks. Moon passed him later. Playing lots of games has a way of getting your numbers up :) According to this info Krieg is still number 2 followed by Farve.

http://www.nfl.com/history/randf/records/indiv/fumbles


You dont have to tell me, hermano. Krieg's easily my favorite Seahawk and NFL player of all-time. Underrated QB....waaaaaayyyyyy underrated.


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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 8:19 am 
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But all those ~6"4 linemen aren't standing upright and a QB in the 6"3-6"5 range would likely suffice for vision. There have also been issues noted with the typically longer delivery time on the throwing motion of QBs around 6"6 and higher. Height is still an important attribute and I imagine teams won't write off potential QBs because of it as quickly as they have in the past. They'll dig a little deeper by looking at arm length, hand size, the height of their delivery, and analyzing their use of passing lanes rather than a single measurable, but they'll probably still shy away from shorter QBs in the end because few will posses all the smaller positives RW did when he was entering the draft.


Last edited by BirdsCommaAngry on Sun May 26, 2013 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: It's the hands, stupid
 Post Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 1:54 pm 
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pehawk wrote:
Evil_Shenanigans wrote:
Dave Krieg spent a lot of time running for his life in those days. So a lot of those fumbles were attributable to a lack of protection from his O-Line.


Krieg also is 3rd in fumbles, I believe behind Moon and Elway.


Not bad company then.

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