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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:12 am 
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Brewer is correct, but it isn't the competition mantra that is to blame, it is the player who seeks an illegal edge. The competition mantra gave us Russell Wilson when all thought Matt Flynn.

Don't blame the game, blame the player.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:17 am 
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Hawkfan77 wrote:
Brewer just reminded me why I don't listen to him or read his "articles" ugh...

But on KJR he just said that Carroll's competition mantra causes players to cheat because they don't feel comfortable in his system because jobs are never safe. He basically said Carroll brought this upon himself because players are always competing which leads them to cheat.



Carrolls competition mantra did not lead to cheating. Thats excusing grown men from their own behavior, which is ridiculous. If anything it is the opposite (accountability must be a big catch word in the locker room).

But you cant ignore the obvious... there is something lacking in the Seahawks locker room right now.

edit.... scottemojo beat me to it a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:19 am 
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Smelly McUgly wrote:
Let's try to be intellectually honest, here. Why do you think that Brewer's argument has merit?


It's the nature of competition. If we're in fact ratcheting up the competitiveness of our approach, we're ratcheting up the various degrees of success and failure experienced by our players. Those who are getting outperformed, or fear they may later be outperformed, would be more likely to take shortcuts like PEDs. If Brewer makes the case that our process puts our players in this position, he's absolutely right and PC would be responsible in a variety of ways. However, if that's the only case he's making, he's overlooking the overwhelming positives from our process. We could in fact be indirectly encouraging the use of PEDs but it's just one negative aspect of the mostly positive process we've used to become one of the most talented and youthful teams in the league.

Our homers throwing Brewer under the bus are only looking at positives and denying the negatives. Brewer is looking at the negative and overlooking the positives. This whole concept is an exercise in perspective and while Brewer might be struggling to see the bigger picture, so are many of us!


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:25 am 
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BirdsCommaAngry, that was a fine argument.

My issue with Brewer's take is that it targets PC's approach to competition as if:

a.) the NFL in general doesn't take that same approach, and

b.) PC was the one hawking the ster--um, Adderall to these guys in a coded "Take these or you might lose your jobs," Vince McMahon-style pressuring. In fact, these guys decided on their own to take this stuff.

If no other player in any sport, ever had taken illicit substances before PC got here and started up his "Always ComPETE" mantra, Brewer may have a point. However, this is not true. Everything in sports has always been about competition, especially once free agency came about and big money became more and more involved. Those are the places to point first - the underpinings of professional sports not only in America, but around the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:33 am 
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If you're going to blame Pete, all you can do is blame the way the team is run in general. And if your'e going to do that, then whatever the same factors are that lead to PED use are the same factors that lead to the team finding talent in unlikely/late round draft picks and giving them an opportunity.

Or it's just dumb luck.

I'd like to know how many guys per team are tested. Are the hawks tested more because they are a young team that just happened to have a lot of turnover and new faces?


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:56 am 
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I only blame Irvin. Everything I have seen of him tells me that essentially, he is just not very smart


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:58 am 
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Smelly McUgly wrote:
BirdsCommaAngry, that was a fine argument.

My issue with Brewer's take is that it targets PC's approach to competition as if:

a.) the NFL in general doesn't take that same approach, and

b.) PC was the one hawking the ster--um, Adderall to these guys in a coded "Take these or you might lose your jobs," Vince McMahon-style pressuring. In fact, these guys decided on their own to take this stuff.

If no other player in any sport, ever had taken illicit substances before PC got here and started up his "Always ComPETE" mantra, Brewer may have a point. However, this is not true. Everything in sports has always been about competition, especially once free agency came about and big money became more and more involved. Those are the places to point first - the underpinings of professional sports not only in America, but around the world.


Actually, the NFL in general might not take the same approach. Everyone might talk about competition but PC's coaching style is likely a superior style for actually bringing that competitiveness out. This has a lot to do with the biology of how people learn. To put it more simply, PC's version of encouraging competitiveness focuses on obtaining friendlier understandings of his players and bringing out little improvements in their play when and where they can. This incremental growth pays larger dividends over time by being better tailored to the way people learn. PC might be talking about something every coach is talking about but the way he actually approaches it is very different and much more thought out than his contemporaries.

I completely agree that PC isn't masterminding the use of PEDs but I suspect those tying PC to what is essentially a conspiracy theory aren't concerned with accuracy. Blaming a head coach makes for a simpler and more sensational story than a young player tempting fate with PEDs on his own accord. If it got us reading his work, then it seems to have worked (even if we're reading it for the wrong reasons). I can't fault Brewer for providing shallow entertainment when so many people are entertained by it.


Last edited by BirdsCommaAngry on Wed May 22, 2013 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:02 pm 
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Now I think that we are parsing the idea of "competition." Broadly, the NFL is a market in which the player must compete with other players for jobs. That is the underlying competition that leads players across the league, not just in Seattle, to trying anything for a competitive advantage. James Harrison just came out and said that he spends, what was it, 600K a year just treating his body and looking for every little edge (although legally, as far as I know)?

Of course, Coach Carroll's mantra is superior because it focuses less on monetary gain and more on personal improvement, something that I do find inspirational. However, I would argue that any pressure that it may add to the lives of these players is probably nominal.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:11 pm 
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The thing that almost everyone seems to ignore is that the team isn't informed until after the suspension is applied by the league and that the current CBA doesn't allow any penalty to be handed down by the team. All that they have to work with is talking to and educating the players. They have to take college kids who have been willing to do almost anything to get here and make them understand that there are now limits to what they can do.

The ones that can do something about this is the players in leadership roles in the team itself. With such a young team, it is still in the establishment phase for influencing off of the field. Wilson, Bryant, Robinson may have tremendous sway on the field, but off the field takes much more time to establish.


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:17 pm 
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Smelly McUgly wrote:
Of course, Coach Carroll's mantra is superior because it focuses less on monetary gain and more on personal improvement, something that I do find inspirational. However, I would argue that any pressure that it may add to the lives of these players is probably nominal.


Indeed but even a nominal change can have a big effect on a player. This is no excuse for Irvin but it's important for us as fans to understand what it is that may be going on with our players and team that leads to these instances. Even if we're powerless to do anything with that knowledge in relation to football, the concepts at work extend well beyond the sport.


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:20 pm 
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I know PC like to talk about how they have an environment where anyone can earn the starting job, but let's be real, that's like every NFL team. Seahawks need to deal with the PED problem but saying the coach is encouraging it is kind of naive when you look at the landscape of the league.


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 1:58 pm 
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Hawkfan77 wrote:
Brewer just reminded me why I don't listen to him or read his "articles" ugh...

But on KJR he just said that Carroll's competition mantra causes players to cheat because they don't feel comfortable in his system because jobs are never safe. He basically said Carroll brought this upon himself because players are always competing which leads them to cheat.


That perspective reminds me of those that have argued that Americans are to blame for 9-11.

That no fault mentality bestowed on offenders. That automatic reflex to aid their escape from responsibility. Made possible by this nation state's preoccupation with deflecting accountablity ...... "The blame game"

Fortunately, Bruce Irvin is bigger than that. He has expressed the courage to rejected mental crutches and man up and excepted responsibility.

I too reject Jerry Brewer's crutch. I'm all in with Irvin's choice to accept resposibility. To accept accoutability and get back on track. I welcome Bruce Irvin's journey in becoming the leader we would all like to see.


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 2:20 pm 
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Jville wrote:
That perspective reminds me of those that have argued that Americans are to blame for 9-11.

That no fault mentality bestowed on offenders. That automatic reflex to aid their escape from responsibility. Made possible by this nation state's preoccupation with deflecting accountablity ...... "The blame game"


I'm not sure I understand the logic of your example here. Wouldn't arguing that Americans, at least partly, are to blame for 9/11 be a form of accepting responsibility?


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 4:23 pm 
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Jville wrote:
That perspective reminds me of those that have argued that Americans are to blame for 9-11.

That no fault mentality bestowed on offenders. That automatic reflex to aid their escape from responsibility. Made possible by this nation state's preoccupation with deflecting accountablity ...... "The blame game"

Don't remember people blaming America for 9-11 rather than other people accusing them of blaming America when merely pointing out that it's not a simple, black & white world we live in, and our long history of propping up horrifying dictators when it's suited us (Saddam Hussein, Mubarak, etc) and funding and training terrorists OURSELVES (like Al Queda during the Eighties).....all things that simply point out that things in this life are complex, and can't be diluted down to simplistic catch-phrases. Kind of like when fans or players dismiss criticism as "ahh, they're just haters."

And to veer back onto topic, Bruce Irvin DID accept responsibility, so isn't that really the whole point?

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 4:26 pm 
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I blame Jerry Brewer, for all my ills, spills and consumption of pills!

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 4:30 pm 
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Jerry Brewer is a hater.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Hawkfan77 wrote:
Brewer just reminded me why I don't listen to him or read his "articles" ugh...

But on KJR he just said that Carroll's competition mantra causes players to cheat because they don't feel comfortable in his system because jobs are never safe. He basically said Carroll brought this upon himself because players are always competing which leads them to cheat.



Carroll sux. I find it rediculous that a coach would bring in competition that essentially forces a player, set to make millions, to train and perform at a level he may be uncomfortable with. Good bye soft drinks. Good bye alcohol and adios to those Dorito couch days. Where's the love (for Pete's sake)??


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 4:44 pm 
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Jerry Brewer is ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Jerry Brewery equals crap, I'm cool with that, but not the same day bleacher report is widely accepted as an accredited publisher. come on guys!

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 5:14 pm 
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I'm laughing at everyone arguing this from every direction. Pretty much with no real information.

Is this the off season?

:les:

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 5:39 pm 
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That is the biggest load of crap I've heard in a long time and in this day and age that is really saying something.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:11 pm 
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Always compete is about learning to be the best you can be by competing not only against others but with yourself. It's about always striving to do the best you can and maximize your abilities. It's not just about 'beat the other guy or you're screwed'--in fact that would be contrary to what Pete wants.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:26 pm 
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So now it's Carroll's fault guys choose to do something they flat out KNOW they are not supposed to do?

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:06 pm 
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This is a poem Pete wrote a few years back. It used to be on his web site; I actually found it on an old BR article just now.

"Always Compete"
By: Pete Carroll

Always Compete…

As you progress through your sporting life…

Always Compete.

If you want to go for it…

Always Compete.

You’re gonna have to make Choices in Life and those choices need to be Conscious Decisions. There’s only one person in Control here and that person is You…

You hold All the cards. You are the Master of You. It’s time to admit it…

You have always known this. So if you’re ready, act on it…

Always Compete.

Don’t you dare try to be too Cool, don’t you dare be afraid of Life, just “Dare to be Great,” and Let it Rip.

Always be Humble, Always be Kind, Always be Respectful…

Always Compete!

Everything You do counts and screams who You are…there is no hiding from You.

Act as if the Whole World will know who You are…

Always Compete.

Be True to Yourself and Let Nothing hold You back.

Compete to be the Greatest You and that will Always be enough and that will be a Lifetime!

Always Compete.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:49 pm 
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I blame the 12th man....thats right, if all you yelling/screaming lunatics had not created that overexcited atmosphere at the CLink our boys would not be feeling so pressured to satisfy the masses. So ssshhhhh for crying out loud before you ruin the whole damn season.

ohh, and :sarcasm_off:

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 10:51 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 12:14 am 
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I think it's Pete Carroll's fault that I got a parking ticket yesterday as well. He should pay for that. Damn you Carroll!!


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 12:30 am 
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Way too much rain this week. Thanks a lot Pete.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:25 am 
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I'm not sure you guys understand the difference between blame and spit balling about cause and effect... Thanks a lot, Pete!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:01 am 
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Smelly McUgly wrote:
SeaTown81 wrote:
I only listen to and read journalists who I agree with 100%! Dissenting thought will not be tolerated! How dare anyone question my opinions and the things I hold dear! Burn the witch!!!


This is a strawman fallacy. No one has argued this, nor is anyone arguing that dissenting thought is the reason that Brewer's argument is a bad one. You are making up this argument, pretending that those who criticize Brewer have made it, and then knocking it down.

Let's try to be intellectually honest, here. Why do you think that Brewer's argument has merit?


The only merit Brewer's argument has is that it got people's attention and emotional engagement. It's a stupid, stupid argument, but hey, a lot of us bit. That's his job. Get people emotionally engaged and paying attention to you and the media outlet you represent. They don't have to *like* you, as long as they are reading you and your media employer, and are emotionally engaged. It was amusing watching the BS distortion and spin by the national media on "Fail Mary" and only local Seattle media showed the backside angles that supported the refs. National media was only about emotionally engaging butt-hurt Packer fans and attracting them to their sites to vent. Brewer is just using a variation of that formula, attacking PC to get our attention and emotional involvement, and TRAFFIC to his media outlet ma$ter. It's not like you should legitimately take him seriously on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:11 am 
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gargantual wrote:
Jville wrote:
That perspective reminds me of those that have argued that Americans are to blame for 9-11.

That no fault mentality bestowed on offenders. That automatic reflex to aid their escape from responsibility. Made possible by this nation state's preoccupation with deflecting accountablity ...... "The blame game"

Don't remember people blaming America for 9-11 rather than other people accusing them of blaming America when merely pointing out that it's not a simple, black & white world we live in, and our long history of propping up horrifying dictators when it's suited us (Saddam Hussein, Mubarak, etc) and funding and training terrorists OURSELVES (like Al Queda during the Eighties).....all things that simply point out that things in this life are complex, and can't be diluted down to simplistic catch-phrases. Kind of like when fans or players dismiss criticism as "ahh, they're just haters."

And to veer back onto topic, Bruce Irvin DID accept responsibility, so isn't that really the whole point?


The function of this emotional engagement was to bypass our critical thinking about 9-11 by going straight to our emotions. Worked on hundreds of millions of us for years. Kept hundreds of millions of Americans from asking hard questions about what really happened, and the ridiculousness of the official story, "19 Arabs with boxcutters, controlled by a guy in a cave in Afghanistan, defeated our $400 billion air defense system." Kept us from talking about the unexplainable collapse of World Trade Center 7. Kept us from talking about the too-small-for-757-hole in the Pentagon. It's how media controlled by the ruling class works. So Americans ARE to blame for being HUMAN and being susceptible to propaganda and media story spin techniques that have been shown, over decades, to be successful on an aggregate group of humans. The ruling cla$$ count$ on thi$.


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:13 am 
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My point was that people weren't "hating" on America by pointing out that sometimes some of the things we do ends up biting us in the ass. Arming and training Bin Laden's boys up in the hills of Afghanistan is the perfect example. Might not of been our best choice ever and expediency in arming anyone who is anti-Soviet just because wasn't our finest hour.

The other point I've heard is that it's easy to complain about what others do (those bad guys out there), but it's ultimately futile since you can't control what other people/groups do. That's why being self-critical is so important since that's covering something you CAN do something about. It has nothing to do with letting the perpetrators off the hook, but looking to see if there are ways we can improve how WE do things. At least in theory that's what living in a democracy is all about. Checks and balances...of the people and by the people and all that.

Oh and waaaaay off topic, but what the hell, it's the off-season.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:23 am 
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I'd say this thread is being self-critical (ie it's our team) but then there really isn't anything we can do about what our front office does...other than pressure them from the outside. It's often stated how we're just a message board and what we say doesn't count, but the "will" of the fans seems to have more effect than one might first think. Teams DO pay attention to their fan base.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:31 am 
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I think it's Seahawks.net's fault for criticizing his run defending in the Atlanta game that pressured him into going PEDs.


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 9:32 am 
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Somebody please lock this thread already.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:22 am 
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Axx wrote:
I think it's Seahawks.net's fault for criticizing his run defending in the Atlanta game that pressured him into going PEDs.

Could be something to that. I bet our collective negative psychic energy directed his way makes him cry too.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 7:10 am 
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I can MAYBE see this.. MAYBE if the guys testing positive for Adderall/Other PED's were say..

Jeremy Lane
Jaye Howard
Jermaine Kearse

And so forth. The guys who have been popped recently are all starters and lets face it, no one is beating out Richard Sherman/Brandon Browner or Bruce Irvin for their jobs right now. They're all key figures.

So this article and the idea that 'competition' breeds cheating is absolutely ridiculous. For whatever reason these guys took Adderall (also widely used in the party scene), got caught.. and that's the end.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 8:30 am 
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A couple of the guys, Barbre and Maxwell, fit the mold of your examples. It's entirely possible Irvin used Adderall for recreation but it's also possible the PED he was using wasn't even Adderall. Irvin might be pretty much guaranteed a significant role on the team even if only as a passing down rusher, but we also brought in Avril, watched Irvin get manhandled as a starter vs ATL, and heightened our collective expectations for the upcoming season. He might not be competing for a roster spot but he is competing for playing time and all the possible benefits of being a prolific starting pass rusher.


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:17 pm 
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BirdsCommaAngry wrote:
A couple of the guys, Barbre and Maxwell, fit the mold of your examples. It's entirely possible Irvin used Adderall for recreation but it's also possible the PED he was using wasn't even Adderall. Irvin might be pretty much guaranteed a significant role on the team even if only as a passing down rusher, but we also brought in Avril, watched Irvin get manhandled as a starter vs ATL, and heightened our collective expectations for the upcoming season. He might not be competing for a roster spot but he is competing for playing time and all the possible benefits of being a prolific starting pass rusher.


The problem with your thinking is that is universal throughout the league. The majority of players busted for PED's are backups/fringe starters. Not a whole lot of high profile stars have been caught.

No one has proved this is a "competitive issue' that isn't common throughout the league that's why I don't buy Brewer's logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Except for Danny O'Neal that fish wrap hasn't had any decent writers. I read Brewer's first article when he arrived and have not read another since. There are enough Seattle bloggers with better insight and sense I haven't regretted not reading the Times.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:28 pm 
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SeaTown81 wrote:
I only listen to and read journalists who I agree with 100%! Dissenting thought will not be tolerated! How dare anyone question my opinions and the things I hold dear! Burn the witch!!!


Damn those witches who disagree with a journalist because they disagree with their positions! Those are the witches that require most burning of all. Who the hell do they think they are? Disagreeing with a journalist? Nazis, fascists, socialists, tyrannical despots --we need to burn the witches who disagree with a journalist and make their opinions known! Anyone who disagrees with a journalist is a Nazi, perhaps Adolf reincarnate!


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:41 pm 
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No link? What's your deal?

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 4:58 pm 
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WestcoastSteve wrote:
The problem with your thinking is that is universal throughout the league. The majority of players busted for PED's are backups/fringe starters. Not a whole lot of high profile stars have been caught.

No one has proved this is a "competitive issue' that isn't common throughout the league that's why I don't buy Brewer's logic.


Well, nothing can be literally proven about a subject like this - even by individuals privy to the inner workers of our team. It's all people theory which is as much art as it is science. I maintain the "competitive issue" may be more prevalent on our squad than those with older players and coaching staffs using more dated and rigid methodologies. This isn't because we talk about or emphasize competition more or anything like that but because we're better at acquiring and training players who fit what we mean by all that talk about competition. If this is true and the way we do things does lead to increased PED use, it's still not really an issue as much as it is a hiccup on an otherwise progressive process.

In the end, we don't, won't, and can't know enough to say anything with any realistic conviction. We can only make approximations. This is the mistake Brewer makes in regard to accuracy but if he instead wrote or spoke about how vague of an issue this really is, he probably wouldn't maintain as many listeners or readers. There's just too many consumers that want things made to appear simple even when it's anything but.


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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 4:34 pm 
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plyka wrote:
SeaTown81 wrote:
I only listen to and read journalists who I agree with 100%! Dissenting thought will not be tolerated! How dare anyone question my opinions and the things I hold dear! Burn the witch!!!


Damn those witches who disagree with a journalist because they disagree with their positions! Those are the witches that require most burning of all. Who the hell do they think they are? Disagreeing with a journalist? Nazis, fascists, socialists, tyrannical despots --we need to burn the witches who disagree with a journalist and make their opinions known! Anyone who disagrees with a journalist is a Nazi, perhaps Adolf reincarnate!


Disagreeing is perfectly fine and one thing. Outright dismissal and pot shots at people you do not agree with is another. Did you not read all the responses in this thread? "Brewer's a hack!" "Why would anyone listen to that fool?" "What an idiot!" It's a sad epedemic that plagues the internet and society in general today. "I don't agree with this! So and so is an idiot! Nothing he says should be taken serious!" This along with not even attempting to understand or listen to the viewpoint you don't agree with really makes people ignorant and close-minded. Politics and media has polarized society to such extremes, that there is no longer anything to be won by taking a differing opinion or middle ground. All people do is shout you down or sing your praises depending which extreme they subscribe to. I'm sorry if you don't see it. But we live in an obnoxiously ignorant society. People no longer are willing to listen to anything other than what they want to hear. Anything otherwise is sacriledge or a sign of weakness. Sorry if you disagree. But there is much to gain from considering opposing and differing takes and viewpoints. There can be merit found EVEN WHEN YOU DISAGREE.

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 Post subject: Re: Jerry Brewer blames Carroll
 Post Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:29 pm 
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Amen ^


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