My "average guy" take on the Seahawks PED issue

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  • Haha apologist much?

    Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

    5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

    The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.
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  • Tical21 wrote:Haha apologist much?

    Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

    5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

    The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.


    I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

    The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).
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  • AVL wrote:We have no one to blame but ourselves as viewers/ fans of the media/ entertainment industry.
    Almost all of this is run through advertising dollars which relies on viewer/ listener ratings.
    What attracts more attention than bad news, especially someone else ? Bad news sells much better than good news.
    It feeds to the majorities (our opponents) hopes.
    In non-competitive "news" I guess shows what sick puppies we can be judging by what is often getting the best ratings.




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  • volsunghawk wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Haha apologist much?

    Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

    5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

    The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.


    I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

    The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).


    On top of all that, Tical's math is stupid. There have been a lot more than 53 different Hawks players over the last three years. Ten percent. Lulz.
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  • volsunghawk wrote:To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.


    Unfortunately, it isn't idiotic. Look at the Japanese educational systems. They use similar methods of continuous improvement and a competitive culture to successfully produce academic excellence in their students, but they also have higher instances of student suicide. We might been experiencing similar a trade-off with our methods and culture - although it is of a less extreme and more manageable nature. Nevertheless, even good methods have fall-out and increased PED use might be ours for the time being.
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  • volsunghawk wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Haha apologist much?

    Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

    5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

    The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.[/
    I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

    The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).

    Good point about Shanahan. Players coach isn't the applicable trait. Maybe The more correct trait is to say a coach that emphasizes things higher than discipline, a win at all costs mantra. At any rate, to think Pete's attitude isn't playing any role is quite far fetched. There are coaches that don't tolerate these kinds of things and there are coaches that do. Pete needs to get control.
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  • Scottemojo wrote:
    volsunghawk wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Haha apologist much?

    Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

    5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

    The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.


    I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

    The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).


    On top of all that, Tical's math is stupid. There have been a lot more than 53 different Hawks players over the last three years. Ten percent. Lulz.

    Fair enough. Take the math out. It is still 5 guys. How many would indicate a systemic problem?
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  • Tical21 wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:
    volsunghawk wrote:
    I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

    The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).


    On top of all that, Tical's math is stupid. There have been a lot more than 53 different Hawks players over the last three years. Ten percent. Lulz.

    Fair enough. Take the math out. It is still 5 guys. How many would indicate a systemic problem?

    Shit if I know. I think at least half the NFL is on HGH or something else, so I think the entire NFL is systemic. Wrong guy to ask. I was just laughing at the crap math you used to support your premise. 3 years of results vs 1 year of roster=Tical supporting some supposition.
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  • BirdsCommaAngry wrote:
    volsunghawk wrote:To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.


    Unfortunately, it isn't idiotic. Look at the Japanese educational systems. They use similar methods of continuous improvement and a competitive culture to successfully produce academic excellence in their students, but they also have higher instances of student suicide. We might been experiencing similar a trade-off with our methods and culture - although it is of a less extreme and more manageable nature. Nevertheless, even good methods have fall-out and increased PED use might be ours for the time being.


    It's got nothing to do with Carroll and everything to do with the fact that the NFL is a competitive league, and teams can cut players at a moment's notice. Contracts are usually laden with performance-based incentives.

    If these guys want to get paid and KEEP getting paid, they've got to outperform the next guy and win.

    There's the competitive culture. Carroll's not the first guy to peddle that, nor will he be the last.
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  • volsunghawk wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Haha apologist much?

    Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

    5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

    The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.


    I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

    The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).


    Yeah its really just these young guys learning how the testing goes in the NFL. In college it was prob easy for them to use PEDs and get away with it.
    Now they know they have to be more careful about the timing of the tests and they will be more successful with their drug taking like all the other players getting away with it around the league :th2thumbs:
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  • Out of the last 23 players busted, 5 have been Seahawks. But it is purely a coincidence right? It is all about competition league wide? It couldn't have anything to do with the way business is handled within the franchise. It could never have anything to do with Carroll, he's just too good of a guy for that.
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  • Aren't the two leading teams in suspensions also the two youngest teams in the league? If that is correct then isn't there just a little to much coincidence to ignore?
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  • RichNhansom wrote:Aren't the two leading teams in suspensions also the two youngest teams in the league? If that is correct then isn't there just a little to much coincidence to ignore?


    I dont think anyone doubted coincidence. Everyone from the beginning that knows what their talking about knows the youth factor is huge.
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  • Tical21 wrote:Out of the last 23 players busted, 5 have been Seahawks. But it is purely a coincidence right? It is all about competition league wide? It couldn't have anything to do with the way business is handled within the franchise. It could never have anything to do with Carroll, he's just too good of a guy for that.


    Never said anything about whether Carroll was "too good" or not. But if you think that the Seahawks players got caught because of Carroll's competition mantra, then you're desperate for a scapegoat. Do you think the other 31 teams are like, "Competition? Never heard of it"? Do you think that players on the other 31 teams just don't worry about losing their starting jobs or getting cut at all?

    Here's the deal, and it's something that Schneider alluded to when he was talking about this issue. PED use is EVERYWHERE. It's not just in Seattle. Schneider talked about it being common in college from what he's seen. Sherman indicated that it's pretty widespread, too. Smoke posted anecdotes to that effect in this very thread.

    So it's not because Carroll preaches competition or because he's a "players' coach" that Seahawks players are getting caught. It's because those players were young and careless.

    By the way, nice cherry-picking with your "out of the last 23 players busted" crap.

    Why didn't you go back from that 23rd guy (Moffitt) and include the next 2 guys who were busted 2 whole days before Moffitt? Oh, right... because those 2 guys were Fred Davis and Trent Williams from the Redskins, and that would give Washington even MORE players busted than Seattle... and then all of a sudden, the argument is about 2 franchises with coaches who have vastly different styles, and that just blows the hell out of your little crusade, doesn't it?
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  • volsunghawk wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:
    Why didn't you go back from that 23rd guy (Moffitt) and include the next 2 guys who were busted 2 whole days before Moffitt? Oh, right... because those 2 guys were Fred Davis and Trent Williams from the Redskins, and that would give Washington even MORE players busted than Seattle... and then all of a sudden, the argument is about 2 franchises with coaches who have vastly different styles, and that just blows the hell out of your little crusade, doesn't it?


    Ouch, facts hurt. That was almost mean the way you did that.
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  • volsunghawk wrote:It's got nothing to do with Carroll and everything to do with the fact that the NFL is a competitive league, and teams can cut players at a moment's notice. Contracts are usually laden with performance-based incentives.

    If these guys want to get paid and KEEP getting paid, they've got to outperform the next guy and win.

    There's the competitive culture. Carroll's not the first guy to peddle that, nor will he be the last.


    They still get paid unbelievably well even when they aren't out performing their competition or achieving their incentives. If they're on a roster for a season, they're rich, but I digress:

    It's not what PC peddles but the way he peddles it and the culture of our team. An established but unspectacular player on the Dallas Cowboys can make more than players here and do so while performing worse. This is because their coaching staff isn't as capable of successfully inserting newer players into the mix and JJ is much less capable at obtaining talented youngsters to push out the veterans. Sure, we share some elements with the entire league, but we're clearly not playing that part of the game the exact same way. We're better at obtaining, implementing, and succeeding with younger players, which is tumultuous to those who haven't yet established themselves.

    What I'm suggesting is maybe PC's process, the process responsible for much of our success, is like every other human process on the face of this earth and it isn't perfect or black and white or whatever other illusion we're entertaining. Maybe the warts of our system are of a variety that just might increase the likelihood of our guys using PEDs, and yes, it does have something to with PC even if it is tolerable in the grand scheme of what he's done. Why this general concept is hard to understand is something I do not know. Maybe you've mistaken me for a buffoon foolishly looking for a scapegoat instead of someone theorizing about one little facet in the ambiguity of all things human.
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  • volsunghawk wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Out of the last 23 players busted, 5 have been Seahawks. But it is purely a coincidence right? It is all about competition league wide? It couldn't have anything to do with the way business is handled within the franchise. It could never have anything to do with Carroll, he's just too good of a guy for that.


    Never said anything about whether Carroll was "too good" or not. But if you think that the Seahawks players got caught because of Carroll's competition mantra, then you're desperate for a scapegoat. Do you think the other 31 teams are like, "Competition? Never heard of it"? Do you think that players on the other 31 teams just don't worry about losing their starting jobs or getting cut at all?

    Here's the deal, and it's something that Schneider alluded to when he was talking about this issue. PED use is EVERYWHERE. It's not just in Seattle. Schneider talked about it being common in college from what he's seen. Sherman indicated that it's pretty widespread, too. Smoke posted anecdotes to that effect in this very thread.

    So it's not because Carroll preaches competition or because he's a "players' coach" that Seahawks players are getting caught. It's because those players were young and careless.

    By the way, nice cherry-picking with your "out of the last 23 players busted" crap.

    Why didn't you go back from that 23rd guy (Moffitt) and include the next 2 guys who were busted 2 whole days before Moffitt? Oh, right... because those 2 guys were Fred Davis and Trent Williams from the Redskins, and that would give Washington even MORE players busted than Seattle... and then all of a sudden, the argument is about 2 franchises with coaches who have vastly different styles, and that just blows the hell out of your little crusade, doesn't it?

    Whatever dude. I don't give two poops about the Redskins. Who cares if they have more. So, the Seahawks have 5 of the last 25 players suspended. The Seahawks make up 3% of the NFL, yet are guilty of 20% of the most recent suspensions. Maybe the Redskins are higher. All it means is both the Redskins and Seahawks have pretty major issues.

    I didn't once, not once, say a single thing about Carroll's competitive philosophy having anything at all to do with this. You could listen to any coach, and any player, at almost any level, and you're going to hear that competition is a major theme. That is no excuse. A coach has to preach that. I place zero blame on Carroll for that. I blame Carroll, and Shanahan, for not curbing this a long time ago. Could you see a world where Belichick has so many players suspsended? Tomlin? Coughlin? Heck, Holmgren? Harbaugh? Do you think this crap would fly in any of those locker rooms? Close your eyes. Can you even come close to picturing that?

    Lets quit the song and dance and cut to the chase, shall we? In your opinion, why is it that the Seahawks and Redskins have so many problems with players being caught for PED's, and so many other teams have no problem at all?
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  • I do think this whole issue does relate back to the organization as a whole. John and Pete have shown a willingness to give guys who have made questionable decisions in the past a chance to make this team. I for one applaud them for it, but it also means you are going to have at least some of them continue to make questionable decisions. Are we really surprised when some of them screw up? I love that this is a team that gives the players every opportunity to be their best, but they are also given enough rope to hang themselves and some of them are bound to do it. What is going to be more telling is what will happen when we have a repeat offender?

    I like what happened with Josh Portis a lot. He missed curfew in Miami last year and was cut. They gave him a second chance this spring and he blew it. Now he is gone. Will Pete have the same conviction to cut a player who isn't a 3rd string QB? I don't know, but I sure hope so, because these guys HAVE to get the message that by trying to help themselves they are hurting the team and that can't be allowed.
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  • I thought Tom Coughlin's NYG had 3 players suspended for PEDs in the same time frame so the soft players coach slant doesn't seem to pass mustard. Something is wrong with the Seahawks message to their players but I don't think it can all be put at the feet of the coach. Maybe the team is taking on more high risk players to allow them to turn around so quickly? They have taken on a few guys like this in Portis, Bowie, #Humblethug, Michaels, Irvin, McCoy and others. They have taken medical risks or injured players in Leon Washington, Walter Thurmond or Williams.

    Maybe they can restrict the risks they had to take now that they have a more talented team? Pete has his share of the blame but if one is going to moan about his style, get comfy in it because until he leaves I doubt he changes. He will leave if the team collapses and Allen shows him the door or he decides to hang it up. Or a mutual parting of ways after his contract is up. And someone has to show me how he is this image of Mr Softy with his players behind closed doors.

    I see him being pumped and jacked but I have seen some cold-blooded moves as well from him and the FO. I doubt anyone is being coddled. But this is just an opinion with no way to prove or disprove.

    FYI: Here is the link to PED suspensions done by Sando where the NYG had 4 suspensions from 2010-2013

    http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/100145/seahawks-lead-in-ped-bans-under-carroll

    2010-13 PED Suspensions

    Seattle Seahawks 5
    Denver Broncos 4
    New York Giants 4
    New England Patriots 3
    Washington Redskins 3
    Cincinnati Bengals 3
    Houston Texans 3
    St. Louis Rams 3
    Atlanta Falcons 2
    Arizona Cardinals 2
    Minnesota Vikings 2
    Tampa Bay Buccaneers 2
    Carolina Panthers 2
    Miami Dolphins 2
    San Diego Chargers 2
    Tennessee Titans 2
    Chicago Bears 1
    Green Bay Packers 1
    New Orleans Saints 1
    Baltimore Ravens 1
    Cleveland Browns 1
    Pittsburgh Steelers 1
    Buffalo Bills 0
    Detroit Lions 0
    Jacksonville Jaguars 0
    Indianapolis Colts 0
    Kansas City Chiefs 0
    New York Jets 0
    Oakland Raiders 0
    Dallas Cowboys 0
    Philadelphia Eagles 0
    San Francisco 49ers 0
    Total 50



    Notice Belicheck's Patriots are near the top with 3 while NYG has 4. Now how is this still just a Shanahan and Carroll not curbing their players issue? This is a league wide issue. Suspensions are suspensions so not going to go through them to determine which had special circumstances. Seahawks have an issue but so do other teams.
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  • Darned if we do, darned if we don't. Pete started with a sup-par team, took chances on very young players with a lot of talent, some with a checkered past. With this talent, he basically turned the corner at the end of year 2, and gave us a championship caliber team in year 3. The team is still full of youngsters with the same personal histories; however, between them all, the worst crime we have is PED violations?? How about if Snyder and PC went about business, as Ruskell did, by identifying boy scout-like qualities as their primary focus? Where do you suppose we'd be right now. We'd have thread after thread of 'fire so and so' and cut 'so and so,' that's where. But more importantly, the blame could go squarely on the coach and GM as opposed to the hyperbole happening right now.

    I suppose there will always be a small percentage of people on any message board, whos hobby is to find the next thing to pick at, or the next person to blame. Two (2) young teams, one with a 'player's coach,' as some people like to term it, who has a competition mantra; one coach with more of an old school mentality. They are the two youngest teams in the league AND they have the highest instances of PED violations. To me, the variable is not coaching. From what we've seen so far, PED violations correlate to the average age of the players in an inverse fashion.

    But hey, let's just equate this to Japanese kids who commit suicide because of the school system they are in. Careful when you start throwing out something you've read about. My daughter is in the Japanese school system, so I might know something about it and have to disagree. Anything to bolster the someone's argument though.
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  • wow, lots of responses... I always find it funny how many people make assumptions about famous people (actors, politicians, sports figures, coaches, etc) so they can say they "know" they are "guilty" of all kinds of things all based on what they have seen on tv, read on the internet, and the cover of the latest people magazine, without ever knowing them personally. Pete Carroll must be bad because I heard on the news how he cheated at USC and read an article on Bleacher report blah blah...in reality I would venture a guess that the reality is a far cry from the reported sensationalism.

    As far as saying the Hawks have a serious problem because we have had 5 players who tested positive for PEDs when the other teams only had 3 or 4 players who did barely makes a case that Pete has no control over the team, and more than any other coach has no control. 5 out of 50 is 10%, but if it is over two years, then it becomes 5 out of 100, and if you include the sample size tested for each team it may change the statistics even further. and if you are going to count adderal users, then you might as well factor in players on teams that were caught using Steroids, HGH, or whatever advantage they could get away with. If I am a manager, yes I am concerned right now, but this is kind of like the oil light on the dash board indicating we have a problem that needs attention, we certainly don't have a blown engine.

    Any kind of opinion about a coach or players should have supporting facts, but if you don't have real information or first hand experience otherwise, you have to assume they are dealing with it like most other coaches and front offices would. Not saying they are without blame, just that in the grand scheme of things...
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    bobincovington
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  • bobincovington wrote:If I am a manager, yes I am concerned right now, but this is kind of like the oil light on the dash board indicating we have a problem that needs attention, we certainly don't have a blown engine.


    Best Analogy. Spot on.
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    Cartire
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  • Young team with some higher risk players probably being tested more than any other team due to recent history. Pretty much sums it up for me.

    If we were dealing with shootings, stabbings, DV or other criminal activities I would be much more worried but that this particular group of individuals with some pretty checkered pasts and all we are seeing is some PED violations. I actually think Pete and John are doing a pretty good job keeping these guys as clean as they are. It wasn't long ago when we were reading about Hill beating his lady and (lost the name) the safety getting hit with a street sign on and on and you know what we weren't getting popped for? PEDs.
    The Lion has no interest in the opinion of the sheep.
    RichNhansom
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