Are the Seahawks still primarily a power run team?

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  • I could simply say Harvin and be done with it. That would be too simple, and no fun.

    First, what do we know about Pete? He hates turnovers. The turnover margin is often the first thing he mentions, win or lose. He hates turnovers like like I hate leftovers. Particularly in the red zone.

    Second, when it comes to making offensive changes, Pete has to be forced to change. He has to see it work. Go back to the Chicago game, it took having our backs against the wall, facing a loss with little clock left, to put the offense truly in Russell's hands. Then overtime came, and with no clock to beat, Pete left the game in Russell's hands. And yet, there had been games earlier in the year, Detroit, Miami, and New England, where putting the game in Russell's hands had shown them what they needed to do. It just took a while to sink in. To me, the acquisition of Harvin is proof the lesson was learned.

    Lets go back to the reasons Pete loves the power run. Clock. Turnovers. Tired 4th quarter defenses. But primarily turnovers.
    How many red zone turnovers did Russell have last year? When it matters, in the Red zone, Russell is money.
    How many failures did the power run game have in the playoffs in the red zone and in field goal range? When it mattered, it was the insistence that no matter what the defense did we were going to run that led to turnovers, and contributed to an early trip home.

    The answer to the thread title is no. We are not going to be a pass first offense either, though. We are going to be a multiple offense. I still expect some growing pains as Pete cedes some control of the offense to the intuition and decision making of Russell, and power running is still a staple of the Hawks, but being multiple is going to be our identity moving forward. Harvin does so much with quick passes that expecting Russell to complete near 70 percent of his passes is not unreasonable. That negates some of the clock worries of passing more.

    All that said, I expect our run game to be far more efficient moving forward. The threat of Harvin should create more space for running, and the development of Turbin should continue. A fresh Lynch for the playoffs would be welcome difference from last year.

    The best part? Our offense can be whatever we need it to be. And when you think back to the mood around here before and as the season began last year, it feels like we are way ahead of schedule.
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  • My take is that the Seahawks are becoming the first offense in the league that is neither a "run-first offense" nor a "pass-first offense" in the strict sense of either phrase. The best term I've heard so far for what we ARE becoming is yours, the "multiple offense".
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  • Scottemojo wrote:The best part? Our offense can be whatever we need it to be. And when you think back to the mood around here before and as the season began last year, it feels like we are way ahead of schedule.


    I think this is exactly the right point to make. We don't even need to apply a label to this offense anymore. Power run game? Check. Dynamic passing game? Check. Take advantage of TE mismatch? Check. Throw to the FB out of the backfield if defenses don't cover it? Check. Throw the ball downfield opportunistically? Check. Screens? Check. Get the ball to speedy guys w/ YAC ability? Check. Read option? Check. QB who can run for positive yards and avoid getting killed? Check.

    Pick your poison, defense. This is one dynamic and versatile offense.
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  • Scottemojo wrote:
    The best part? Our offense can be whatever we need it to be. And when you think back to the mood around here before and as the season began last year, it feels like we are way ahead of schedule.


    You answered your own question right here.

    What Harvin gives RW is an unlimited arsenal of options at every snap. We no longer have to rely on Lynch for half of our offense. Wilson can step to the line and do just about anything he wants to.

    - Run Lynch
    - Play action
    - zone read run
    - zone read pass
    - bubble screens

    On and on. With Harvin the other team's defense is going to be crapping their pants with trying to stop Lynch, RW's arm, RW's legs, the zone read and now all the things we can do with Harvin? We averaged 33 pts a game the 2nd half of the season. With Harvin we should be able to average 40.
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  • It's easy to forget in all the hubbub that Harvin is a WR/RB and we're going to see him used out of the backfield to spell Lynch and to take advantage of specific matchups. So, in that case, this move fits in perfectly with the plan of controlling the ball on offense and maintaining the 'power' run game.

    So, yeah, definitely "We are multiple."
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  • I prefer a 'multiple threat' offense to one that only does one thing at an elite level and is rather mediocre at the rest.

    Pete seems to have built a team that can slog it out, or win a shootout. We can build a lead and pound the rock, or come back from rather deep score deficits.

    Yeah, I like it.

    :)
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  • I prefer multiples too but my wife just doesn't like it............

    with that said - agree 100%

    The run will be used to setup the read option, the read option will be to setup the passing play and the passing play will be used to setup the run :)
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  • Yes we are run first until you prove you can stop the team. I think you bring up an interesting point, however. Is there such a thing as a "Read option" first team? We would fit
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  • mikeak wrote:I prefer multiples too but my wife just doesn't like it............

    with that said - agree 100%

    The run will be used to setup the read option, the read option will be to setup the passing play and the passing play will be used to setup the run :)


    There are some multiples she would love if only you were capable.
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  • McGruff wrote:
    mikeak wrote:I prefer multiples too but my wife just doesn't like it............

    with that said - agree 100%

    The run will be used to setup the read option, the read option will be to setup the passing play and the passing play will be used to setup the run :)


    There are some multiples she would love if only you were capable.


    I see what you did there and must say..........well done :) :th2thumbs:
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  • I hope Papa Pete hits the gas with our offense more this year. This is the NFL, and if you're capable of beating someone by 55 points, you should do it. To hell with the feelings of the other team. I've got fantasy points to accrue, I don't want to see Wilson getting benched at halftime again because we're spanking our opponent so badly.
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  • I can't even imagine being a Defensive coordinator trying to stop this Hawks Offense with Harvin on the field. Just Harvin's presence should create more space for Beastmode and the other weapons. With the type of leadership Wilson showed and his ability to manage sustained drives I'm really looking forward to this offense making opposing defenses look confused!
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  • mikeak wrote:I prefer multiples too but my wife just doesn't like it............

    with that said - agree 100%

    The run will be used to setup the read option, the read option will be to setup the passing play and the passing play will be used to setup the run :)


    But can she pick up a zone blitz?
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  • I personally think the read option in its current version will be very short lived cause teams are already working on ways to defensive it.

    Gimmick stuff like that frequently have cycles and then fade away.

    Teams with the personal to run it will find lots of defensive minds working on it as we speak.

    :les:
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  • The Radish wrote:I personally think the read option in its current version will be very short lived cause teams are already working on ways to defensive it.

    Gimmick stuff like that frequently have cycles and then fade away.

    Teams with the personal to run it will find lots of defensive minds working on it as we speak.

    :les:


    It depends...you can't just scheme to stop it, the more important piece is you need the kind of players on defense that can make it happen. It's not an easy fix. Teams had plenty of time last season to prepare for it and learn it and it was still killing defenses.

    I agree that it probably has a shelf life, but the way we use it is wise -- it's an option, not the heart of the offense.
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  • The Radish wrote:I personally think the read option in its current version will be very short lived cause teams are already working on ways to defensive it.

    Gimmick stuff like that frequently have cycles and then fade away.

    Teams with the personal to run it will find lots of defensive minds working on it as we speak.

    :les:

    Which is why I don't think it will ever be "the" offensive scheme we run. We'll still use it, though IMHO. It can be effective in spot duty, like many other gimmicks that took the colleges by storm but flopped in the NFL. As part of the whole package, I think it will be useful. But yeah, it won't be a 30 times a game thing.
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  • The Radish wrote:I personally think the read option in its current version will be very short lived cause teams are already working on ways to defensive it.

    Gimmick stuff like that frequently have cycles and then fade away.

    Teams with the personal to run it will find lots of defensive minds working on it as we speak.

    :les:


    Teams can work all they want on defensing it, but the only way to TRULY defense it is to hit the QB in the mouth on every play regardless of whether he has the ball or not. That's how college teams defense it. That's a problem for two reasons:

    1. RW is too smart
    2. The NFL doesn't like their QB's getting hit, especially franchise ones. If Wilson gets crushed without the ball, that's a 15 yard penalty and a fine.

    btw, the read option is just a wrinkle. It's not going to be 80% of our offense like some college team. It's maybe a 10 plays a game type wrinkle that gives defenses fits and creates preparation problems. So I disagree with you, for certain QB's like RG3, Newton, RW and Kaepernick........it's not going anywhere.
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  • The Radish wrote:I personally think the read option in its current version will be very short lived cause teams are already working on ways to defensive it.

    :les:


    Teams are also working on ways to stop the run and EVEN the pass............ :stirthepot:

    The read option does thing to a defense that opens up the rest of the game. I don't think it will EVER go away. You cannot attack like Green Bay did against SF against a read-option team. You simply cannot do it. You can therefore buy time for your other plays simply by having the read-option in there. You don't need to play it much but by having it in there and running handoffs from that formation you always have the option and the defense has to play it accordingly.......
    Last edited by mikeak on Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:Teams can work all they want on defensing it, but the only way to TRULY defense it is to hit the QB in the mouth on every play regardless of whether he has the ball or not. That's how college teams defense it. That's a problem for two reasons:
    .


    I heard this a lot last year and two things about that

    1) 15 yard penalty is a big penalty
    2) The fine coming in the mail is paid by the player who is told to hit the guy in the mouth not by the team
    3) Just like hockey if I am a defensive guy and I see the opponent crush my qb when he clearly went to the side without the ball I am going to say screw this I don't care if your name is Tom Brady and you stand in the pocket I will run you over. Just like baseball if I am the pitcher and the opposing pitcher throws at my guy I throw at yours / at the pitcher if he is up to bat. Players work these things out.........

    Intentionally taking out the qb when you realize he doesn't have the ball any longer will not work as a solution

    Taking out the qb when he runs to block downfield..........different matter
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  • Scottemojo wrote:The best part? Our offense can be whatever we need it to be. And when you think back to the mood around here before and as the season began last year, it feels like we are way ahead of schedule.


    This is exactly what I see happening. Seattle will literally be able to game plan for just about any defense with the way this offense is lining up. Between read option, power run game, short quick passing game, deep seams, and outside go routes, we have a player that excels in each of these areas. On top of that, you have a defense that is difficult to score on.

    It is funny, because I remember those talks as well. I remember coming back to what Pete Carroll had said about his 4 year plan. It seems to me PC/JS are right on the schedule they laid out for themselves.
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  • Wilson said before the Carolina game that about 20% of the plays are read option. That is about right I suspect. The thing I like about it is it changes up defensive scheming. In theory it is should not be that different if anyone has lane discipline.

    In reality with the RG3, Wilson and Kaepernick it is tough.
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  • I think this move has helped to just make us the most dynamic, versatile and dangerous offense in the entire NFL now. Colin Cowherd is a muppet, but at the end of the season, he called Wilson a top 5 QB in the NFL right now. I agree with him. We also have probably the #2 RB in the entire NFL, and now one of its most dynamic playmakers in Harvin. There's no defense in the NFL we can't exploit now.

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  • peachesenregalia wrote:I think this move has helped to just make us the most dynamic, versatile and dangerous offense in the entire NFL now. Colin Cowherd is a muppet, but at the end of the season, he called Wilson a top 5 QB in the NFL right now. I agree with him. We also have probably the #2 RB in the entire NFL, and now one of its most dynamic playmakers in Harvin. There's no defense in the NFL we can't exploit now.

    look to us, NFL, and despair.


    Hey, remember the end of 2011 where we had no idea if we'd ever get a franchise QB and figured our improving defense and our run game would have to carry the team if it was ever going to do anything? :mrgreen:
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  • I would have said that Seattle had easily the most dynamic and versatile offense in the NFL before Harvin. Now it's just getting ridiculous.
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  • Scottemojo wrote:He hates turnovers like like I hate leftovers. Particularly in the red zone.


    You hate leftovers in the red zone?

    (Great points all btw)
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  • gargantual wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:He hates turnovers like like I hate leftovers. Particularly in the red zone.


    You hate leftovers in the red zone?

    (Great points all btw)

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  • kearly wrote:I would have said that Seattle had easily the most dynamic and versatile offense in the NFL before Harvin. Now it's just getting ridiculous.


    I really should stop reading your posts. Nothing gets me more gacked about this team than reading statement like this from you. I've started taking several pairs of undercrackers to work as a result.
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  • You're right, this offense IS a multi-threat offense now. Balance is the key and they've found it with the roster they currently have assembled.

    The offense that this probably will resemble is the Vikings during the '09 season. Bevell was around for that, he had Rice and Harvin as well as a solid tight end threat like Miller in Shiancoe. Of course there's the obvious AP/Beast Mode comparison too. Rice had his best season that year, and if he can stay healthy this year he'll greatly benefit from Harvin because he'll be able to stretch the field 1 on 1. He was deadly doing that in Minnesota in '09. All we need is for Russell to do his best Brett Favre imitation (4,200+ yards/33 td/7 int/68% completion) and we're set.

    This offense just evolved in a big way.
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  • peachesenregalia wrote:I think this move has helped to just make us the most dynamic, versatile and dangerous offense in the entire NFL now.


    This is 100% true.

    It's why I love the move so much. Because Harvin is such a malleable talent. This offense is dynamic. And creative. And the team is definitely open to new and creative things. Harvin is almost the perfect talent for what we are wanting to exploit. It's just a great fit.

    As to the lament of the read-option. I'm wondering if you aren't confusing this with the Pistol formation. The read option is just one element of the formation. Teams are going to have varied success with the read option but it's going to be most effective, when you can run nearly your entire offense out of it. Harvin improves our ability to pass out of the formation in just a wide variety of ways.

    Wilson and Kaep make the formation (and by extention the read option play) work because of their ability to run such a wide variety of plays from it. That's what distinguishes it from 'gimmick' plays. Equating the Pistol formation offense to the wildcat is demonstrating a lack of understanding of offensive theory. The Wildcat can be schemed/coached and rendered obsolete, because there is no, or very limited ability to maintain the numbers advantage that the formation provides. With no threat of the pass, teams just commit more to the run.

    The Pistol is more balanced. And if a team 'figures' the read option, then they'll end up going over the top of the LBs and exploiting the cover 1. It's a style that has legs, because at it's base, it can create a numerical mismatch in either the run or pass.
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  • We not only have one of the best teams/rosters in the NFL but we arguably the most versitile team, we can play grind it out smashmouth ball, or one that can throw quick west coast passes, or take shots deep.

    Our defense is built to hit and can stuff the run with an oversizeded DE like Big Red but built to speed rush fwith a lead with a 4.4 (40) Bruce Irvin.

    All this flexabiity allows us to match up with any team, some teams are built in ways where they just don't match up well with certain teams, well that's not the seahawks, we can adjust to any style. We can stop the Patriots passing and run up the scores with them, but we can also play smash mouth with the Niners and Steelers of the league.

    We are a miltifaceted Offense and Defense

    multifaceted
    Definition
    mul·ti·fac·et·ed[ mùltee fássətəd ]ADJECTIVE
    1. with diverse qualities: with many different talents, qualities, or features
    2. with many facets: having many facets or cut surfaces
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    ADJECTIVE
    Synonyms: multilayered, complex, complicated, many-sided, multidimensional, polygonal, manifold

    New England, New Orleans, SF and Green Bay are the only teams close to being as mulitdimensional as we are but I think we have the the fastest most versitile weapons of all with RW and Harvin.
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  • sutz wrote:I prefer a 'multiple threat' offense to one that only does one thing at an elite level and is rather mediocre at the rest.

    Pete seems to have built a team that can slog it out, or win a shootout. We can build a lead and pound the rock, or come back from rather deep score deficits.

    Yeah, I like it.

    :)

    Yep, I was thinking the exact same thing about Harvin's versatility as WR/RB.

    For Wilson?, the options door has just come off the hinges, and I'm lovin it. :mrgreen:

    You can betchurebutt that the rest of the League is going to do their dead level best to try'n mimic Petes hybrid Offensive/Defensive approach.
    Adapt or fall hopelessly behind Harbaugh.

    By Pete puting Russell Wilson out there last Season to acclimate to the speed of NFL play early on, that forced Harbaugh to play his hole card, and start playing Kaepernick to tryn' play catchup, and now?, what does Harbaugh do?, he goes out to get Boldin to keep from falling too far behind the curve, but it's too little too late Jimmy, Pete has done it to you again :16:
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  • sutz wrote:I prefer a 'multiple threat' offense to one that only does one thing at an elite level and is rather mediocre at the rest.

    Pete seems to have built a team that can slog it out, or win a shootout. We can build a lead and pound the rock, or come back from rather deep score deficits.

    Yeah, I like it.

    :)


    I get the feeling coming back from deep score defiicits is not going to be an issue this season. As opposed to, say, the issue of how to manage blowouts we are inflicting on the opponent.
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  • Lords of Scythia wrote:
    sutz wrote:I prefer a 'multiple threat' offense to one that only does one thing at an elite level and is rather mediocre at the rest.

    Pete seems to have built a team that can slog it out, or win a shootout. We can build a lead and pound the rock, or come back from rather deep score deficits.

    Yeah, I like it.

    :)


    I get the feeling coming back from deep score defiicits is not going to be an issue this season. As opposed to, say, the issue of how to manage blowouts we are inflicting on the opponent.

    We all hope that's true, but it's nice to know the ability is there if needed. We kind of proved that several times last season, and with Harvin, it just gets better. And with our history of slow starts on the road, I think we'll need it more than you're implying. Home is a solid lock on 6-7 wins and very possibly 8. So the road becomes more important. We'll probably need 12-13 wins in '13 to take the division. Quite possible IMHO, but not a lot of marging for error.
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  • I know this isn't the best use of funds right now but I really hope we can get one of the pass catching FA TE's in here. Or a cheap rookie. We might end up with too many targets and too few balls, but can you imagine Fred Davis running around out there too. I hope they keep an eye on their markets, with so many available in FA and in the draft, got to to think at least one guy is gonna fall by the wayside.

    Our offense is so stacked. Assuming the line keeps growing together.
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  • JKent82 wrote:I know this isn't the best use of funds right now but I really hope we can get one of the pass catching FA TE's in here. Or a cheap rookie. We might end up with too many targets and too few balls, but can you imagine Fred Davis running around out there too. I hope they keep an eye on their markets, with so many available in FA and in the draft, got to to think at least one guy is gonna fall by the wayside.

    Our offense is so stacked. Assuming the line keeps growing together.


    There are a bunch of good TEs in the draft, wouldn't mind forgoing the FA retreads for a young guy to bring along behind McCoy and Miller.
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  • kearly wrote:I would have said that Seattle had easily the most dynamic and versatile offense in the NFL before Harvin. Now it's just getting ridiculous.


    This is probably one of your shortest, yet most profound writings Kearly, and I agree 100%. I wasn't seeing a big time WR as a desperate need like many on these boards. The offense was running pretty smoothly as it sat at the end of the year. That being said, this upgrade makes our offense prolific and should have defensive coordinators quaking in their cleats.
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  • HawksFTW wrote:
    JKent82 wrote:I know this isn't the best use of funds right now but I really hope we can get one of the pass catching FA TE's in here. Or a cheap rookie. We might end up with too many targets and too few balls, but can you imagine Fred Davis running around out there too. I hope they keep an eye on their markets, with so many available in FA and in the draft, got to to think at least one guy is gonna fall by the wayside.

    Our offense is so stacked. Assuming the line keeps growing together.


    There are a bunch of good TEs in the draft, wouldn't mind forgoing the FA retreads for a young guy to bring along behind McCoy and Miller.


    Most definitely. Would be a lot more prudent financially too. Gonna start having to bring some balance to the $ handed out to the defense and offense. Need cheaper options waiting in the wings.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:My take is that the Seahawks are becoming the first offense in the league that is neither a "run-first offense" nor a "pass-first offense" in the strict sense of either phrase. The best term I've heard so far for what we ARE becoming is yours, the "multiple offense".

    Think about it--during USC's best years under Pete we had a mix of player styles and a balance of run and pass on offense.

    RBs: Fargas, White, Bush, Dennis, Reed and others
    WRs: Williams, Colbert, Smith, Jarrett
    TEs: Holmes, Byrd and Davis
    QBs: Palmer and Leinart

    Those guys have had mixed success after college, but at the college level, that was a hell of a lot of offensive firepower. And we generally kept it pretty close to 50/50 run to pass.

    I will not be surprised at all if the Hawks end up similarly.

    Edit: I forgot to mention the Pistol/read option wrinkles, which can lead to either run or pass and make things even more confusing for defenses. Yeah, I'm liking this.
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  • I still see us at our core as a power run team. It's what made us so successful last season: teams cheat up to stop the run and Wilson beat them over the top.

    Adding more speed to the slot or the outside is only going to reinforce that type of play action passing game.

    Like the OP said though, with Harvin on the field it changes up some things. I can see us adding more wrinkles. I already see us passing more with Wilson's breakout performance and more trust by Carroll. But, the NFL is a copycat league. The most consistently successful and dominant teams last year were power run teams (Seattle, SF, Houston half of the year, NE was most dominant when their run game worked....when they went away from it, they lost, Wash when their offense and run game finally clicked). People saw the run going away, but now teams are going to see that rushing the ball is still very effective.

    It will be fascinating to see what our offense really morphs into, but at it's heart, you don't have a OL that blocks like ours, coupled with a one two punch like Lynch and Turbin and go away from those strengths; you play off of them.
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  • Yes i think they are i dont think Pete will go away from what got him in this position. That is Power a running team that uses play action to free up space for recievers down field. what i remember about his USC teams that was kind of his formula don't think he would get all pass happy like the Falcons did which i think hurt them for a few years.
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  • Our offense incorperates the read option out of the base offense, so it could be a read option play or a roll out or a screen or a sprint draw or a dive and Wilson has all those options based on where the DE and LB and Safety try to line up. We don't send a Western Union to the sidelines when we run it which is why it's effective for us, we also don't want or ask Wilson to be a ball carrier in it as RGIII and Kaepernick are, running is designed few and far between unless there is a breakdown and a hole that he can gain 10 and slide in.

    Vikings were a run first team as well, when Rice and Harvin were there with Farve it was more balanced but Peterson still got a lot of carries. Our offense is now more like FIRE and BRIMSTONE, we will burn you either way.
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  • Yes we're still a power run team. Lynch, Turbine, Harvin all excel running through the tackles. Lynch just grabs the first three defenders that hit him and carries them on his back because he needs a snack after he gets his first down. Turbine will develop into mini Beast.

    But Harvin will have the disadvantage of having to learn the ZBS and probably learning to take his runs outside more often out of the zone read plays. I don't think its a big disadvantage.

    Wear down defenses with Beast mode and Jr., then let them chase Harvin all over the field out of zone reads that take away their numerical advantage.

    Make them bite hard on that and RW will absolutely torch them for being mismatched against our receivers.

    Lose track of RW, and he'll turn on his elite speed and blow your socks off.

    Theyre going to need 14 men on the field. By far we can run the scariest and most efficient offense in the NFL.

    When Russell starts running an efficient no-huddle, it will be unstoppable.
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  • I hope Bevell is drawing up plays on napkins at the local applebees, he has has the ability to create the most dynamic offense ever and get is own gig if he plays his cards right. Man fun times are ahead !
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  • m0ng0 wrote:I hope Bevell is drawing up plays on napkins at the local applebees, he has has the ability to create the most dynamic offense ever and get is own gig if he plays his cards right. Man fun times are ahead !


    Does anyone still have a picture of Ray Rhodes Defensive game plan written on a napkin. I want to remember it as being a joke about the prevent d he love to help us lose with.
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