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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:45 am 
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Exactly. Harvin adds misery to opposing D.C.'s game plans.

And like Scott said. The teams that get over the hump have coin tied up in their skill positions.

With the stupid cap, it makes it impossible to keep ALL your players and they are trying to get paid and that is understandable.

Hell, Pete and John are hiring basketball players, and we need to trust and respect what they are doing.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:48 am 
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A few points here, some of which are more or less repeats from other posts (that strengthen my overall thought):

Yes, Harvin does have some injury history. He had migraine issues that seem to have been dealt with effectively; he hasn't had one in a couple of years now). He had surgery while at Florida to address a foot problem that was ultimately causing some other issues. And he had an ankle problem last year. It's understandable that these facts would give one pause, and that's why this trade is subject to Percy passing a physical. If the Seahawks docs aren't satisfied, he will not be coming to Seattle. Pete also has experience dealing with player migraine issues as Joe McKnight had them during his time at USC.

He has reportedly exhibited some attitude at times. Fortunately for us, we have a coach who is really good at bringing the best out in his players. We have a strong locker room with a QB who has the support of the team. We have an OC and #1 WR who worked with this kid in MN and who presumably don't have a problem with him (or he wouldn't be coming).

Finally, Pete recruited Harvin out of high school. I give you this tidbit from Scott Schrader, known USC recruiting guru of 247Sports: "It wasn't often Pete was denied access for an in-home visit, but Percy's mom knew how much he loved SC and blocked Pete from even entering their home when he showed up for the in-home Visit.:-)" http://usc.247sports.com/Board/29/Percy ... #a17405282

This could be a brilliant move or it could turn into a nightmare, but the same could be said of any decision made. There are no guarantees with any trade or player draft. Would we all prefer to have a young rookie superstar for less money? Sure. But without having a crystal ball, I think this leans more toward "sure thing" than an unproven rookie.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:08 am 
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In on what will be the longest thread ahead of the uniform thread.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:28 am 
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Tical21 wrote:
After really being excited about this move, I have digested, taken a step back, and don't like it anymore.

I LOVE Percy. I even have a Percy Harvin T-shirt. I think he's a great player, possibly elite. Expecting 13 games or whatever doesn't really bother me either. What bothers me is that the Hawks are a run-first team that now has a bazillion dollars tied up at WR and TE. The Seahawks' leading receiver had 50 catches last year. 50. And the Hawks WR corps wasn't bad. Golden Tate has come miles. Rice is very good when healthy. Did we just spend a first rounder and 12+ million per year for a player that is going to catch 50 balls? If the Hawks threw the ball around the lot, I would be all over this. But WR might be the least impactful position on the entire roster considering the style the Seahawks play with.


Personally I do not believe we are a power running football team anymore..........

OK Here are my thoughts. PC is all about compete and get better. EVERY DAY - ALL THE TIME. I believe that he has changed enough in his career to realize that the right change is good for you. Russell Wilson changed his way at looking at the game or at least realized he had a different team last year. On top of this you add doing just about everything right and being in close games against Detroit, GB, Arizona, Chicago and Atlanta and yet the opponents either won or you had to pull out some kind of miracle. That is power football of today. It is playing a low scoring game that if unlucky or with a few missed playes you loose because of that one or two mistakes.

He has a special player in RW, he has a special running back in Lynch, he has a special player in Percy Harvin. I think Tate and Rice will be better for this and I expect this offense to putting up 35 pts per game all year long.

I simply don't think we are a run first team or at least I see the pass being a much bigger part of our overall game setup from a read option formation that will have enough running to keep everyone honest and 3-5 scrambles by RW per game.....

call me crazy but give me the benefit of the doubt until week 1 is over


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:40 am 
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OK I am really excited about the trade, but one thing is eating at me: Can someone explain why Brandon Marshall is worth two 3rd picks and Percy Harvin is worth a 1st, 3rd and 7th? They both have similar checkered diva history.


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:40 am 
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Scottemojo wrote:
I am a step ahead of you. I liked it, hated it, and like it again.


My position has steadily held, personally. Overpay, but JS/PC just got their perfect player. Not just for our needs, but in general. Seattle has always been on the hunt for Percy Harvin types.

Harvin is almost uncoverable out of the slot. I think we just got our Wes Welker. Similar quickness, ability to get open, fieriness, yards per catch, YAC ability, and catch rate. We paid a lot more than the Patriots paid for Welker back in 2007, but if the Patriots paid a 1st, 3rd, 7th and ~13-14 million per for Welker do you think they would have regretted it?


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:59 am 
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Missing_Clink wrote:
OK I am really excited about the trade, but one thing is eating at me: Can someone explain why Brandon Marshall is worth two 3rd picks and Percy Harvin is worth a 1st, 3rd and 7th? They both have similar checkered diva history.


Well off the top of my head:

Marshall is 28, Harvin is 24

Marshall has been a diva at multiple stops in the NFL. Harvin has not.

Harvin tips the field more (slot, split wide, in the backfield) so he's worth more in money and picks.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:08 am 
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Missing_Clink wrote:
OK I am really excited about the trade, but one thing is eating at me: Can someone explain why Brandon Marshall is worth two 3rd picks and Percy Harvin is worth a 1st, 3rd and 7th? They both have similar checkered diva history.


Supposedly hit a woman in New York right before the trade

Does that do it for you? If not on the scene of a shooting (murder) in 2007, arrested a few months later for other issues, arrested again later that year for drunk driving, arrested for battery charges in 2008, another dispute with the wife leading to police involvment in 2009 and supposedly hitting someone RIGHT BEFORE HE GOT TRADED

Two months after the trade - On April 23, 2011, Marshall was stabbed near his stomach by his wife then

Yeah with that list two 3rd round picks sounds very risky.......

and yes diagnoes with personality disorder


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:14 am 
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mikeak wrote:
Missing_Clink wrote:
OK I am really excited about the trade, but one thing is eating at me: Can someone explain why Brandon Marshall is worth two 3rd picks and Percy Harvin is worth a 1st, 3rd and 7th? They both have similar checkered diva history.


Supposedly hit a woman in New York right before the trade

Does that do it for you? If not on the scene of a shooting (murder) in 2007, arrested a few months later for other issues, arrested again later that year for drunk driving, arrested for battery charges in 2008, another dispute with the wife leading to police involvment in 2009 and supposedly hitting someone RIGHT BEFORE HE GOT TRADED

Two months after the trade - On April 23, 2011, Marshall was stabbed near his stomach by his wife then

Yeah with that list two 3rd round picks sounds very risky.......

and yes diagnoes with personality disorder


Oh yeah, the rap sheet. Forgot about that! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:16 am 
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Lol.. As a Die Hard 49er fan I can flat out tell you Jim is not worried at all about Seattle or Pete The Cheat Carroll. Love how you guys go out and overspend for overrated talent and we Niners spend far less( 6th round pick) and got a much better player and deal.
Will Harvin even play a full season? Or will be become a diva? Or will his headaches comeback in the loudest stadium in sports? Will his ankle hold up? Way to many questions... Too many question...We both have squads and this is gonna be a bloodbath next season.. I just think SF took all your heat with one move. It went from Seattle made a trade too Percy who? Within 20 mins.

Niners!!! 4 Life! 2014 Division Champions... Already crownd.


if we want to read this regurgitated crap we'll go over to a niner site.... come with some new idea's or a fresh take then we can talk some football...

what's next wilsons too short and can't throw in the pocket, or how bout our empty trophy case, haven't seen that one in a while....

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Last edited by hawker84 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:21 am 
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Not sure where to put this, but I discovered something a little sad when going through the rotoworld archives:

These are from 1 month ago:

Quote:
Tom Pelissero of 1500 ESPN Twin Cities echoes an NFL.com report that the Vikings are unlikely to garner a first-round pick for Percy Harvin.


Quote:
Toward the end of the 2012 season, one NFL personnel man estimated that Percy Harvin will probably fetch a second- or third-round pick on the trade market.


Quote:
An NFL executive tells NFL.com's Ian Rapoport he would be "shocked" if the Vikings netted better than a third-round pick for Percy Harvin.


I realize we weren't the only team in on Harvin, but given the language that Seattle was the "front runner" from the start, it makes me think that Seattle was willing to do whatever it took to get him, even if it meant selling the farm.

I'm not bashing the trade, but I am reminded of the sage advice I've heard many times: Never fall in love with one player. I wonder how things might have been different if Seattle had been less aggressive here.


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:24 am 
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Yeah, 'problematic', 'head-case', or 'diva' are way too broad to put Harvin and Marshall in the same category. All of Harvin's 'issues' were 1-on-1 with head coaches. Even if he was out-of-line, at least he went to the person who could affect the changes he wanted to see – which were all about offensive production and winning. Aside from the wacky and violent stuff already mentioned (which are the biggest red flags), when Marshall got bent out of shape in practice he wandered off, punted balls off the field, and ignored coaches – completely unproductive, with no aim on bettering the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:25 am 
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We have all been so Leary of our Cap as of late. Me too. When you look hard at our roster, we are loaded, and by that I mean LOADED, with young up and coming talent. A large portion of that talent is under contract with rookie deals. The dynamics of our personnel, contracts and cap will seriously shift after this season. It's an amazing balance to keep the team infused with top talent and serviceable or better depth at each position. But, so far, John and Pete have shown that they do this part of their jobs very very well. My position with Harvin is to just focus on the incoming talent and not the cost. I realize this is only 1/2 the equation.....but luckily for me, I have that luxury...I'm just a fan. When we are deep into the season and the benefits of Harvin's game are well established, the money won't matter. Everyone expected us to make a SB run this year and this piece is just one of those deals that is almost universally looked at as being a key piece that puts us over the top. Now, we still need to address some priority needs on the DL and so forth, which obviously we will.

I am confident in the John and Pete plan....and yes, they have one. Not just for this year, but 2-5 years down the road. They know when contracts are up. They know who they want to keep and who they will let walk. But this year, while our Window for a SuperBowl is now completely wide open, you win for this year right now. You just can't fully predict where you might be in 2014...but you can see this year, that the team goal should be nothing short of a SuperBowl appearance. I think we are a penetrating DT away from having a perfectly balanced team. And if I was a betting man....I would bet John and Pete get that solved very soon.

One thing I can almost completely guarantee. If we are winning during the season, if we are winning in the playoffs and if we win the SuperBowl, then the cost to get Harvin in the fold with be looked at as the best move of any team in the off-season. There are a lot of if's....yeah, I get it. But No matter how talented, or how high the team expectations are...you are going to have big If's before the season. Percy Harvin gives the Seawhawks a better chance to get to the Superbowl than before we got him........and that's good enough for me. Just WIN Baby!

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:28 am 
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Missing_Clink wrote:
OK I am really excited about the trade, but one thing is eating at me: Can someone explain why Brandon Marshall is worth two 3rd picks and Percy Harvin is worth a 1st, 3rd and 7th? They both have similar checkered diva history.


How old is Marshall? Percy?

How many domestic violence and assault charges and DUI charges does Marshall have? Percy?

How many times has Marshall been stabbed? Present at a deadly shooting? Percy?

How many return yards does Marshall have? Rush yards? Percy?

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:30 am 
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kearly wrote:
Not sure where to put this, but I discovered something a little sad when going through the rotoworld archives:

These are from 1 month ago:

Quote:
Tom Pelissero of 1500 ESPN Twin Cities echoes an NFL.com report that the Vikings are unlikely to garner a first-round pick for Percy Harvin.


Quote:
Toward the end of the 2012 season, one NFL personnel man estimated that Percy Harvin will probably fetch a second- or third-round pick on the trade market.


Quote:
An NFL executive tells NFL.com's Ian Rapoport he would be "shocked" if the Vikings netted better than a third-round pick for Percy Harvin.


I realize we weren't the only team in on Harvin, but given the language that Seattle was the "front runner" from the start, it makes me think that Seattle was willing to do whatever it took to get him, even if it meant selling the farm.

I'm not bashing the trade, but I am reminded of the sage advice I've heard many times: Never fall in love with one player. I wonder how things might have been different if Seattle had been less aggressive here.



You know, SOMETIMES, these guys are just talking out their rear oriface. Just because reports say something doesn't mean it's so. Our draft picks are a fair value for the player we are receiving. The only question lef t is can we get him to sign a fair contract.

Edit to fix typo from Reporters to reports DOH!

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Last edited by kidhawk on Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:30 am 
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kearly wrote:
Not sure where to put this, but I discovered something a little sad when going through the rotoworld archives:

These are from 1 month ago:

Quote:
Tom Pelissero of 1500 ESPN Twin Cities echoes an NFL.com report that the Vikings are unlikely to garner a first-round pick for Percy Harvin.


Quote:
Toward the end of the 2012 season, one NFL personnel man estimated that Percy Harvin will probably fetch a second- or third-round pick on the trade market.


Quote:
An NFL executive tells NFL.com's Ian Rapoport he would be "shocked" if the Vikings netted better than a third-round pick for Percy Harvin.


I realize we weren't the only team in on Harvin, but given the language that Seattle was the "front runner" from the start, it makes me think that Seattle was willing to do whatever it took to get him, even if it meant selling the farm.

I'm not bashing the trade, but I am reminded of the sage advice I've heard many times: Never fall in love with one player. I wonder how things might have been different if Seattle had been less aggressive here.


I find myself wondering how many of those executives/personnel men were employed by other teams hoping to drive Harvin's value down.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:31 am 
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McGruff wrote:
Missing_Clink wrote:
OK I am really excited about the trade, but one thing is eating at me: Can someone explain why Brandon Marshall is worth two 3rd picks and Percy Harvin is worth a 1st, 3rd and 7th? They both have similar checkered diva history.


How old is Marshall? Percy?

How many domestic violence and assault charges and DUI charges does Marshall have? Percy?

How many times has Marshall been stabbed? Present at a deadly shooting? Percy?

How many return yards does Marshall have? Rush yards? Percy?


Also...Jeff Ireland.


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:33 am 
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Also, most, if not all, of Percy's so called character concerns seem to stem from being extremely competitive. One of his fights with a coach even resulted from Percy arguing that they needed to give Peterson more carries. That's not a me first guy. That a guy who wants to win and knows when his coaches are being stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:37 am 
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Has Percy made in statements in regards to the trade..

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:37 am 
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kearly wrote:
Not sure where to put this, but I discovered something a little sad when going through the rotoworld archives:

These are from 1 month ago:

Quote:
Tom Pelissero of 1500 ESPN Twin Cities echoes an NFL.com report that the Vikings are unlikely to garner a first-round pick for Percy Harvin.


Quote:
Toward the end of the 2012 season, one NFL personnel man estimated that Percy Harvin will probably fetch a second- or third-round pick on the trade market.


Quote:
An NFL executive tells NFL.com's Ian Rapoport he would be "shocked" if the Vikings netted better than a third-round pick for Percy Harvin.


I realize we weren't the only team in on Harvin, but given the language that Seattle was the "front runner" from the start, it makes me think that Seattle was willing to do whatever it took to get him, even if it meant selling the farm.



That very well may have been the compensation until SF and Seattle found out they were in a bidding war with each other. If that's the case, it became important to not only acquire the targeted player, but to also keep him away from the other (because he could shift the balance of power either way when teamed with Wilson or Kaepernick). I would love to still have our first, but not at the expense of having Harvin on SF for the next five years.


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:43 am 
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kidhawk wrote:
You know, SOMETIMES, these guys are just talking out their rear oriface. Just because reporters say something doesn't mean it's so. Our draft picks are a fair value for the player we are receiving. The only question lef t is can we get him to sign a fair contract.


Exactly. We have seen what happens when fans get too wrapped up in what NFL execs say. How anyone can argue 112 catches, 1475 yds from scrimmage, 11 TDs combined (and these aren't taking into account his return yds/TDs) over the last 16 games ISN'T worth a first rounder. Especially considering how young he is. A lot of people are over thinking this; Harvin is easily worth the draft compensation we gave up for him, and all of cap/contract talk is overblown.

Edit to add: This post below was a response to another thread that got locked. Edited it a bit to fit in with the post above.

For a hybrid player like Harvin, looking at receiving stats alone is misleading. Harvin has been hovering right around 1000 all purpose yards a season, without even taking into account his return stats. If you look at the stats above, name another WR that is better than that in their last 16 games off the top of your head. The list is small, I guarantee you. Again, add in another 1000+ yds returning and what you have is a guy who literally puts up as many yards as the best all around skill position players active in the game. Anyone who thinks this guy is second tier or less isn't looking at the big picture.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:50 am 
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^ THIS

I have said it here but was told you don't draft to keep players from your opponents. If you follow soccer ask Milan of the 80's -90's what they think about that policy...........

Point being Harvin is a great fit for us but I am fine if the 4th rounder thrown in there was simply for the reason of keeping Harvin from the 49ers. Having him on their team with Crabtree and Kaepernick running would NOT have been a good matchup. Then they got that Gore running back guy..........they would have been extremely hard to defend and we were open across the middle a lot last year

Guess what now we got the RW, Harvin, Lynch guys on our team and I think our outsides with Tate and Rice are better than Manningham and Crabtree. I think Boldin only replaces Moss doesn't add much so I am very happy with the overall outcome

I am still scared to death though that 49ers put in a bid on Cruz..........


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:19 am 
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impacthawk wrote:
I am confident in the John and Pete plan....and yes, they have one. Not just for this year, but 2-5 years down the road. They know when contracts are up. They know who they want to keep and who they will let walk. But this year, while our Window for a SuperBowl is now completely wide open, you win for this year right now. You just can't fully predict where you might be in 2014...but you can see this year, that the team goal should be nothing short of a SuperBowl appearance. I think we are a penetrating DT away from having a perfectly balanced team. And if I was a betting man....I would bet John and Pete get that solved very soon.


Exactly. Teams have "cap gurus" for a reason. We'll front load some contracts and back load some others. We'll ask guys to restructure the terms of their contracts (not the $$) to bennefit the cap situation and yes... we'll eventually see some old favorites move on as they become cap casualties, but we've seen what these guys do in the draft, so replacements will come (and on the cheap too). They'll make the math work. I'm not in the least worried about their ability to keep the core of this team together. As long as Russell, Russell, Earl and Sherm are locked up for the remainder of their lives, we'll be alright.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:24 am 
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Temporary break in the action for a little levity:

I wonder if Percy likes donuts?

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:25 am 
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CANHawk wrote:
Exactly. Teams have "cap gurus" for a reason. We'll front load some contracts and back load some others. We'll ask guys to restructure the terms of their contracts (not the $$) to bennefit the cap situation and yes... we'll eventually see some old favorites move on as they become cap casualties, but we've seen what these guys do in the draft, so replacements will come (and on the cheap too). They'll make the math work. I'm not in the least worried about their ability to keep the core of this team together. As long as Russell, Russell, Earl and Sherm are locked up for the remainder of their lives, we'll be alright.


You are a smart man.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:30 am 
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HawksFTW wrote:
CANHawk wrote:
Exactly. Teams have "cap gurus" for a reason. We'll front load some contracts and back load some others. We'll ask guys to restructure the terms of their contracts (not the $$) to bennefit the cap situation and yes... we'll eventually see some old favorites move on as they become cap casualties, but we've seen what these guys do in the draft, so replacements will come (and on the cheap too). They'll make the math work. I'm not in the least worried about their ability to keep the core of this team together. As long as Russell, Russell, Earl and Sherm are locked up for the remainder of their lives, we'll be alright.


You are a smart man.


He's Canadian, dude. You wanna re-think what you just said?

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:32 am 
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I think Harvin was frustrated. By what people who cover the team state he is a very bright guy that was very frustrated. He had no faith in his QB or OC ( remember the headaches improved after the OC did)

As far as the price. Add up the points for the picks and it comes across a pretty good deal. If you had moved up enough to get a player in the draft with the same potential they maybe great. However,they had not even played a game in the NFL.


Price? This is not the Mariners. They spend not to just compete , but to win. Sometimes you have to be bold and get the parts you need to win in the 3-5 year window.

What I find odd... think back to the SB team and SEA was in a lot of ways like the Steelers then. They were young and known for D. They had a good run for quite a while. The Seattle teams was older and we had one shot...like the 49ers.


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:33 am 
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nsport wrote:
Temporary break in the action for a little levity:

I wonder if Percy likes donuts?

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:34 am 
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peachesenregalia wrote:
HawksFTW wrote:

You are a smart man, for a Canuck.


He's Canadian, dude. You wanna re-think what you just said?


FTFY

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:44 am 
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CANHawk wrote:
impacthawk wrote:
I am confident in the John and Pete plan....and yes, they have one. Not just for this year, but 2-5 years down the road. They know when contracts are up. They know who they want to keep and who they will let walk. But this year, while our Window for a SuperBowl is now completely wide open, you win for this year right now. You just can't fully predict where you might be in 2014...but you can see this year, that the team goal should be nothing short of a SuperBowl appearance. I think we are a penetrating DT away from having a perfectly balanced team. And if I was a betting man....I would bet John and Pete get that solved very soon.


Exactly. Teams have "cap gurus" for a reason. We'll front load some contracts and back load some others. We'll ask guys to restructure the terms of their contracts (not the $$) to bennefit the cap situation and yes... we'll eventually see some old favorites move on as they become cap casualties, but we've seen what these guys do in the draft, so replacements will come (and on the cheap too). They'll make the math work. I'm not in the least worried about their ability to keep the core of this team together. As long as Russell, Russell, Earl and Sherm are locked up for the remainder of their lives, we'll be alright.


Not the remainder of their careers, but their lives? I admire your dedication to the Hawks sir! :th2thumbs:

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:44 am 
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Not to sound harsh, but I think a few people are being naive with regards to value/money. Sure, Seattle can keep their essential players even with the Harvin investment. I made the same argument in my Revis thread. However, there is no escaping the fact that this acquisition will cost Seattle multiple players. 3 players from the draft alone, and 2-3 more from the financial side too. It's basically a "blockbuster" trade a bit like when the Knicks traded for Carmello or the M's traded for Erik Bedard. I think Harvin will work out better than those deals did, but I don't think we should just downplay the cost to justify liking the move.

In trying to put faces on this trade (take this with a grain of salt), we basically acquired Harvin in exchange for something that might resemble this: Datone Jones (1st round), Kenny Stills (7th round), D'Anthony Thomas (3rd round next year), Kam Chancellor (maybe $7 million a year), Jason Jones (maybe $5 million a year). It doesn't have to be those names, but it would be a comparable package of talent.

Additionally, the damage from this trade may possibly compound if Seattle feels they must work back into the first round this year for a pass rusher, just like how the Deon Butler trade kept coming back to bite us in the ass for years due to a draft domino effect (not having a 3rd in 2010 forced us to overpay for CW, the lack of a 3rd rounder the following year from the CW trade forced Seattle to trade down which contributed to a very weak start to that 2011 Seahawks draft).

Reworking contracts is never a given, btw. Look at how many players refused pay cuts in recent weeks and were let go as a result. If you approach Rice, Miller, or Bryant about reworking their deals, you better have a backup plan for their positions, because the odds are pretty good that they wouldn't accept a pay cut and you'll have to get rid of them.


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:54 am 
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impacthawk wrote:
My position with Harvin is to just focus on the incoming talent and not the cost. I realize this is only 1/2 the equation.....but luckily for me, I have that luxury...I'm just a fan. When we are deep into the season and the benefits of Harvin's game are well established, the money won't matter. Everyone expected us to make a SB run this year and this piece is just one of those deals that is almost universally looked at as being a key piece that puts us over the top.


I love this. It's exactly how I've been trying to wrap my head around it. From Pete's perspective (and by extension, the whole locker room vibe, because the two are still one and the same) you do what it takes to get the right team assembled. Every step of the way, every competition and look-see has been set up for that. Every current Seahawk has to know this move just made the team significantly better and harder to defend. Even a guy like Golden or Leon, who must wonder 'what does this mean for my role?', knows that adding Percy Harvin fits with the win forever/always compete ethos that is so deeply fundamental to the program.

I invite everyone who is worried at all about any aspect of this, to try to stave off the anxiety. Let the professional eggheads sort out the salaries and trust that they are not going to forget how to manage money just because we brought in a highly paid yardage machine! If you are one who must fret, save it for when/if it's warranted, ie, when we start losing games we should win (I seriously doubt this happens). Otherwise, this is supposed to be a HAPPY OCCASION! Let's not bicker and argue over who cost how much! With the weapons we have, our offense will move the ball over huge tracts of land!

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:54 am 
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kearly wrote:
I wonder how things might have been different if Seattle had been less aggressive here.


From much of what I'm reading/hearing it sounds like if Seattle had been less aggressive here that Harvin would probably be a 49er right now instead of a Seahawk.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:56 am 
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kearly wrote:
In trying to put faces on this trade (take this with a grain of salt), we basically acquired Harvin in exchange for something that might resemble this: Datone Jones (1st round), Kenny Stills (7th round), D'Anthony Thomas (3rd round next year), Kam Chancellor (maybe $7 million a year), Jason Jones (maybe $5 million a year). It doesn't have to be those names, but it would be a comparable package of talent.

Additionally, the damage from this trade may possibly compound if Seattle feels they must work back into the first round this year for a pass rusher, just like how the Deon Butler trade kept coming back to bite us in the ass for years due to a draft domino effect (not having a 3rd in 2010 forced us to overpay for CW, the lack of a 3rd rounder the following year from the CW trade forced Seattle to trade down which contributed to a very weak start to that 2011 Seahawks draft).


Skipping out on the reworking or re-signing players part, because nobody except the players know what they are willing to accept to stay here and continue building this team up.

As far as drafting goes though, we had 10 picks this year and there was absolutely NO WAY they were all or even a high percentage (8 or more) going to make the team. If this is the case, and I believe it to be so, then trading picks is not hurting us at all. The seventh rounder especially as I believe we had several of those picks. If we need to get back in the first round, I would also have no trouble packaging a few later round picks, or perhaps Flynn with our 2nd round pick to move up, but at this time I'm not really sure we need to move up. We've actually had more success from our 2nd round and later picks than our first round picks.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:57 am 
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Chapow wrote:
kearly wrote:
I wonder how things might have been different if Seattle had been less aggressive here.


From much of what I'm reading/hearing it sounds like if Seattle had been less aggressive here that Harvin would probably be a 49er right now instead of a Seahawk.


And we would ALL be saying the 49ers overpaid for an oft-injured malcontent 3rd receiver.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:58 am 
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kearly wrote:
Reworking contracts is never a given, btw. Look at how many players refused pay cuts in recent weeks and were let go as a result. If you approach Rice, Miller, or Bryant about reworking their deals, you better have a backup plan for their positions, because the odds are pretty good that they wouldn't accept a pay cut and you'll have to get rid of them.


Agreed - but there is a difference between reworking contracts to make them more cap friendly (converting bonuses, for example) and pay cuts.

Most players probably won't go along with a pay cut, but having their deals reworked where they get a bonus instead of salary is a pretty good deal since they get it all at once.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:58 am 
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Jazzhawk wrote:
22 pages? who the hell has the patience to wade thru 22 pages?? Jeez.


Truth. I am not a fan of the moderator policy when it comes to stuff like this. IMO, it's better to have 5-10 Harvin topics that are 1-3 pages each than one unreadable monolith. Assuming that those topics each bring new information to the table, of course. Nothing wrong with locking/deleting redundant topics.


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:00 am 
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McGruff wrote:
And we would ALL be saying the 49ers overpaid for an oft-injured malcontent 3rd receiver.


;) So true.

Hell, if I had started a topic two days ago saying that we should trade a 1st, 3rd, 7th, and $12 million a year in cap space for Harvin I would guarantee you that 80% of the board would flame me for it. Guar-en-effen-teed.


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:04 am 
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Chapow wrote:
kearly wrote:
I wonder how things might have been different if Seattle had been less aggressive here.


From much of what I'm reading/hearing it sounds like if Seattle had been less aggressive here that Harvin would probably be a 49er right now instead of a Seahawk.


No doubt about it. Had we had to face Harvin twice a year in our weakest defensive spot - the slot - no doubt they would have a huge advantage in games against us.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:06 am 
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kidhawk wrote:
As far as drafting goes though, we had 10 picks this year and there was absolutely NO WAY they were all or even a high percentage (8 or more) going to make the team. If this is the case, and I believe it to be so, then trading picks is not hurting us at all. The seventh rounder especially as I believe we had several of those picks. If we need to get back in the first round, I would also have no trouble packaging a few later round picks, or perhaps Flynn with our 2nd round pick to move up, but at this time I'm not really sure we need to move up. We've actually had more success from our 2nd round and later picks than our first round picks.


Most of those 10 picks were in the late rounds though. You would expect the #25 and 3rd rounder next year to make the team. Your final statement is relatively true, but factually untrue. We've gotten excellent production out of the first round and this year's #25 was looking like the best pick we've had since 2010. Late first is loaded this year.


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:12 am 
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FlyingGreg wrote:
Agreed - but there is a difference between reworking contracts to make them more cap friendly (converting bonuses, for example) and pay cuts.

Most players probably won't go along with a pay cut, but having their deals reworked where they get a bonus instead of salary is a pretty good deal since they get it all at once.


Well, if you are just moving money around that doesn't really help us. We aren't up tight against the cap right now- we just need to look for ways to streamline the roster so that we have money to spend for years to come. X amount of money is still X amount of money even if you change it's shape, especially in the new CBA which has a rolling cap structure.

As far as suggesting less money for more guaranteed money, I think that's a good idea, but a player will probably refuse it if he feels he's secure on the roster and is going to earn his base salary anyway.


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 Post subject: Does anyone here NOT like the Harvin dea?
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:15 am 
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Would be interested to hear some of the thoughts of those against (or moderately to severely concerned about) the Harvin deal?

Personally i applaud the move, but recognize the pitfalls. Living in MN and listening to Vikes fan justify the trade isnt exactly beneficial.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone here NOT like the Harvin dea?
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:16 am 
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I smell a thread merge.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:16 am 
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kearly wrote:
Not to sound harsh, but I think a few people are being naive with regards to value/money. Sure, Seattle can keep their essential players even with the Harvin investment. I made the same argument in my Revis thread. However, there is no escaping the fact that this acquisition will cost Seattle multiple players. 3 players from the draft alone, and 2-3 more from the financial side too. It's basically a "blockbuster" trade a bit like when the Knicks traded for Carmello or the M's traded for Erik Bedard. I think Harvin will work out better than those deals did, but I don't think we should just downplay the cost to justify liking the move.


On the flip side of this Kip, I think you are way over estimating the COST of trading away these picks, and whatever contract Harvin will sign. "3 players from draft alone" is extremely misleading because we are getting arguably a better player out of that ONE pick than we would for all three. The 2-3 players from the financial side isn't a known factor either, because their is NO guarantee those players would stick around in FA or that the team would want those contracts to begin with. This is not a "blockbuster" trade in the way you are making it out to be, this is essentially us using that 1st round draft pick on Harvin, and sliding Minny a mid round pick and a 7th round pick for compensation. You cannot factor out what you believe to be unimportant, while over emphasizing the things you think are.


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In trying to put faces on this trade (take this with a grain of salt), we basically acquired Harvin in exchange for something that might resemble this: Datone Jones (1st round), Kenny Stills (7th round), D'Anthony Thomas (3rd round next year), Kam Chancellor (maybe $7 million a year), Jason Jones (maybe $5 million a year). It doesn't have to be those names, but it would be a comparable package of talent.


I will take the names with a grain of salt because, KC is the only guy on that list that would be hard for me to swallow. Even then, Kam is replaceable. As for your last sentence, you are incorrect. It doesn't have to be comparable in TALENT just in CAP SPACE. You are trying to equate the two, which is extremely naive. As the Hawks have shown, this last year in particular, talent and the amount of money you spend don't have to be correlated. This front office has shown they know how to get talent, especially on the defensive side of the ball (where you have most of your cuts/losses at), cheaply and affectively. Draft well, and this will NOT be a problem, with the way contracts have gone with the CBA.

Quote:
Additionally, the damage from this trade may possibly compound if Seattle feels they must work back into the first round this year for a pass rusher, just like how the Deon Butler trade kept coming back to bite us in the ass for years due to a draft domino effect (not having a 3rd in 2010 forced us to overpay for CW, the lack of a 3rd rounder the following year from the CW trade forced Seattle to trade down which contributed to a very weak start to that 2011 Seahawks draft).


Like most everything else you have said, this is conjecture that is essentially a scare tactic. What if, what if, what if. None of these things HAVE to be true, and even IF Seattle feels the need to jump back into the first round, they have a penchant for acquiring draft picks. Rounding off my point above, another way to deal with players that have large contracts looming, you can trade them before their contracts are up. In fact, that is how the most successful teams have done it. Keep the nucleus, trade the ones you can't/won't pay, and keep moving on.


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Reworking contracts is never a given, btw. Look at how many players refused pay cuts in recent weeks and were let go as a result. If you approach Rice, Miller, or Bryant about reworking their deals, you better have a backup plan for their positions, because the odds are pretty good that they wouldn't accept a pay cut and you'll have to get rid of them.


Reworking is never a given, but neither is anything else you are saying here. A lot of churning of the wheels for no reason, when most of these problems are at least a year or two away. I haven't seen anything from this front office that makes me think they will get caught with their pants down, and it is surprising to me to see someone of your insight into the team question that. These aren't the same guys that trade for CBJ.

So while some of us maybe naive for underestimating the impact, that cloth cuts both ways with the nervousness you are portraying here.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone here NOT like the Harvin dea?
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:17 am 
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Need to see the contract details in a couple of hours before this question can begin to be assessed.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone here NOT like the Harvin dea?
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:18 am 
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nsport wrote:
I smell a thread merge.



did I miss a thread? I looked (not real hard tbf). The Harvin trade thread is 27 pages, but isnt specific. Figured this would be just for anyone against it.


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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone here NOT like the Harvin dea?
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:19 am 
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Well with a topic like this, I am certain it will get merged. The topic of whether we like it or not is a by product of the trade itself, which has 27 pages. Maybe a poll would be a better choice?

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone here NOT like the Harvin dea?
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:19 am 
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I like some of the deal, the fact he will play for us is outstanding, HOWEVER we paid too damn much for him, considering what the 49ers did. I think we could have got him less the first round pick, ie- a couple middle round picks. Our GM finally got took


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:20 am 
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kearly wrote:
Not to sound harsh, but I think a few people are being naive with regards to value/money. Sure, Seattle can keep their essential players even with the Harvin investment. I made the same argument in my Revis thread. However, there is no escaping the fact that this acquisition will cost Seattle multiple players. 3 players from the draft alone, and 2-3 more from the financial side too. It's basically a "blockbuster" trade a bit like when the Knicks traded for Carmello or the M's traded for Erik Bedard. I think Harvin will work out better than those deals did, but I don't think we should just downplay the cost to justify liking the move.

In trying to put faces on this trade (take this with a grain of salt), we basically acquired Harvin in exchange for something that might resemble this: Datone Jones (1st round), Kenny Stills (7th round), D'Anthony Thomas (3rd round next year), Kam Chancellor (maybe $7 million a year), Jason Jones (maybe $5 million a year). It doesn't have to be those names, but it would be a comparable package of talent.

Additionally, the damage from this trade may possibly compound if Seattle feels they must work back into the first round this year for a pass rusher, just like how the Deon Butler trade kept coming back to bite us in the ass for years due to a draft domino effect (not having a 3rd in 2010 forced us to overpay for CW, the lack of a 3rd rounder the following year from the CW trade forced Seattle to trade down which contributed to a very weak start to that 2011 Seahawks draft).

Reworking contracts is never a given, btw. Look at how many players refused pay cuts in recent weeks and were let go as a result. If you approach Rice, Miller, or Bryant about reworking their deals, you better have a backup plan for their positions, because the odds are pretty good that they wouldn't accept a pay cut and you'll have to get rid of them.


That might cost us those players... the fact that we already have a solid team with few glaring holes likely means that instead of drafting players then cutting them, we can draft players and keep them. Also no way will Kam Chancellor cost 7m a year, there are only 7 safeties in the entire league earning more than 5m next year. Maybe Kam will want paid like a top 5 safety, but the likelihood is he'll "settle" for around 4m a year (average salary of the 10th highest paid safety in the league).


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE: Seahawks traded for Percy Harvin
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:22 am 
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kearly wrote:
. However, there is no escaping the fact that this acquisition will cost Seattle multiple players. 3 players from the draft alone, and 2-3 more from the financial side too. .


I think this math is flawed

1) You just got a player just earlier than the draft so to me that reduces the number of players to two
2) Very likely that the 7th rounder doesn't make the 53-man roster team so now you are looking at 2 or maybe 1 player only that you lost
3) Those 1 or 2 players are at a risk. They could be good they could be horrible. Here the risk is replaced with injury risk (like all players have) but you know the guy can play in this league

4) you would have paid those draft picks as well so you can't just count three guys salary on the team and not count the money spent on the first round and 4th rounder (I am assuming 7th rounder gets cut)

Sure there is a cost - there always is but it isn't 3 guys in the draft and 3 others on the team.


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