The real reason Matt Flynn's trade value will probably suck

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  • The NFL is a copycat league, and if there is one thing that defined the 2012 season, it was the emergence of the mobile QB and the validation of the read option in the NFL. While I think most NFL GMs are probably smart enough to know that QBs like Russell Wilson are very rare, QBs like Colin Kaepernick are not. Finding QBs with tools but not skills isn't hard to do, and SF is proving that such a player can lead a potent NFL offense, even without top shelf WRs.

    I see a lot of owners/GMs watching that at home and thinking "why the hell aren't we doing that?" I expect a pretty huge shift in that direction starting immediately this offseason, and though EJ Manuel might have mid round draft grades, will it shock anyone when a team trades up in round 2 to reach for him extra hard? It won't surprise me. This whole situation pretty much sucks the wind out of Matt Flynn's sails. There might be some teams that like Flynn as a backup, which explains the "wait til he's released" logic. Flynn has his fans, just none big enough to pay him starter money or hand him a starting job.
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  • Good point - and one valid enough to worry me a bit about getting value from him if we were willing to trade him. Playing devil's advocate here, but many also have seen fads like the Wildcat go all buck nutty for a season only to be relegated to irrelevance the next year. That means there will be a lot of those owners/GMs watching at home going "Imma give it a year before I buy it's the real deal."

    And that means his stock goes up.
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  • Is there a reason this gem wasn't added to the thread entitled 'Matt Flynn expected to be cut'?



    Of course there is!!!!!!


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  • I'm curious as to what your reasons are for Russell Wilson being a rare QB while Colin Kaepernick is not? I personally see both QBs as having the tools and the skills.

    I personally think the demand for the traditional, big and tall, strong-armed pocket QB won't go down because of the emergence of mobile QBs. Just looking at the Super Bowl, on the other side is Joe Flacco (which is as traditional of a pocket passer as you can get) and he also played phenomenally to lead the Ravens through the playoffs to the Super Bowl.
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  • Winterfell wrote:I'm curious as to what your reasons are for Russell Wilson being a rare QB while Colin Kaepernick is not? I personally see both QBs as having the tools and the skills.

    I personally think the demand for the traditional, big and tall, strong-armed pocket QB won't go down because of the emergence of mobile QBs. Just looking at the Super Bowl, on the other side is Joe Flacco (which is as traditional of a pocket passer as you can get) and he also played phenomenally to lead the Ravens through the playoffs to the Super Bowl.


    Not to speak for Kearly, but my honest opinion of Kaepernick vs RW is that one has ungodly tools and a HC who knows how to take full advantage of those tools without making him experience the true rigors of playing QB (ie consistent reads/progressions). RW, on the otherhand IMO, along with great tools, is more adept at making reads/progressions.

    I will probably get flamed for this, but Harbaugh has made life so ridiculously easy for his QBs, dating back to his San Diego days with Josh Johnson. Think about it, name one Harbaugh QB that hasn't been really efficient? Why is this?

    As much as I hate the man, he is brilliant with play design/call. There's a reason he has significant designed movement pre-snap. It basically makes the defense show their entire hand of what they are doing. A simple check optimizes the play call. Furthermore, I have paid very close attention to Kaepernick, and during the ATL game, I can honestly say I never saw him move off of a first read the entire game. Even slow developing plays (like the big V Davis catch), he was simply eyeing him the whole way, and the play design made the crossing routes rub together, allowing Davis unnatural separation on the play.

    I really don't want to discredit Kaepernick as he is a fantastic physical talent (and by all means a smart kid), but I've noticed more often than not, if the first read breaks down, he's a totally different player. And like I said earlier, name a Harbaugh QB who has struggled with efficiency?
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  • Three of the four teams that played last weekend had pocket passer QBs. Just because a few teams are having success with mobile QBs doesn't mean GMs are stupid enough to think thats the only way to have success.
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  • Good call on Manuel. I'd LOVE him to be a Hawks pick in the 3rd or 4th round pick. Much like the man who's messes Manuel had to clean up, Ponder, he'll be taken higher than he should be.

    There BFS, I mentioned Ponder.
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  • i don't see this as having a lot of effect on Flynn's value. Sure people like the idea but for every Kaep or Wilson there's a Cam Newton, injured Robert Griffin, or the gifted pocket passer like Brees, Brady and Flacco.

    Then you have to have the infrastructure to support a read option QB. A running game and offensive line and the receivers to threaten short or down the field. There are a lot of teams that can function if they get a QB and win a few games, then the coach doesn't have to worry about his job right away like the former Jaguars coach.

    Add to that, these guys don't grow on trees. Most of this years QBs are pocket passers with a few that have some mobility, but I don't see anyone with the kind of experience Russell Wilson had. And there are exactly zero QBs like Kaep with 10,000 yards passing and 4000 yards rushing in college.

    The west coast offense is still alive and well in the NFL and Matt Flynn has demonstrated his ability to run it, and run it well.
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  • Mtjhoyas wrote:Not to speak for Kearly, but my honest opinion of Kaepernick vs RW is that one has ungodly tools and a HC who knows how to take full advantage of those tools without making him experience the true rigors of playing QB (ie consistent reads/progressions). RW, on the otherhand IMO, along with great tools, is more adept at making reads/progressions.

    I will probably get flamed for this, but Harbaugh has made life so ridiculously easy for his QBs, dating back to his San Diego days with Josh Johnson. Think about it, name one Harbaugh QB that hasn't been really efficient? Why is this?

    As much as I hate the man, he is brilliant with play design/call. There's a reason he has significant designed movement pre-snap. It basically makes the defense show their entire hand of what they are doing. A simple check optimizes the play call. Furthermore, I have paid very close attention to Kaepernick, and during the ATL game, I can honestly say I never saw him move off of a first read the entire game. Even slow developing plays (like the big V Davis catch), he was simply eyeing him the whole way, and the play design made the crossing routes rub together, allowing Davis unnatural separation on the play.

    I really don't want to discredit Kaepernick as he is a fantastic physical talent (and by all means a smart kid), but I've noticed more often than not, if the first read breaks down, he's a totally different player. And like I said earlier, name a Harbaugh QB who has struggled with efficiency?


    I think all that makes a lot of sense. That CK's job is made easier with Harbaugh, and his strengths are emphasized and his weaknesses softened.

    It's just that saying RW is a rare QB while saying that CK is not rare implies that a QB like CK is easy to find and that RW is heads and shoulders better CK. Which even though I believe RW is going to have the better career, I can't agree that at the moment there is that much of a performance difference between RW and CK. They both are supported by a great defense and physical running back. Both led their teams to wins and the playoffs.

    I would say that at the moment, RW and CK are a very similar kind of QB.

    I'd say RW has the edge in work ethic, composure, football IQ, reading coverages, agility/elusiveness, passing accuracy, pocket awareness.

    But to be fair I would say that CK has a slight edge in arm strength, running speed, and size. Not that RW is a pushover at any of those, but to be fair, that's just what I see.
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  • Actually, Kearly, while Flynn may be hosed on the short term while the NFL's crush on mobility plays itself out, it should prove to be a short-lived crush and will leave Flynn's value unharmed in the long run.

    The reason? RG3. You know all this quite well, but there's a reason mobile QB's aren't common in the NFL, and it's because they not only expose themselves to injury with their play style, but often allow it to preempt the development of their passing skills in college because they can run so effectively. The option is becoming all the rage, but next year will be that narrow window between the advent of a new gimmick and NFL defenses adapting to it. You won't see the Packers utterly ignore Colin Kaepernick's mobility again.

    The only mobile QB's in the league that go on to have stable careers will be the ones who can still pass well, who can use their mobility intelligently and protect themselves, and who can play patient and take what they're given. Vick has already fallen short of that. RG3, Newton, and Kaep may or may not find ultimate success. Russell Wilson is the pinnacle of the model, and it's honestly not because of his legs. It's his brain.
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  • Jim Harbaugh is an excellent coach. He's just a doosssshhh.

    Kaepernick seems to be an ok QB. I don't think he has the accuracy or the football IQ that RW has, but he's mobile and makes decent decisions on run/pass and an excellent pass protection. They also have had frank gore/james have very good seasons.
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  • Little early to be crowning the read option as a viable long-term wrinkle for certain, isn't it? I would say it needs to have two consecutive years of success for multiple teams before that can happen.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:Actually, Kearly, while Flynn may be hosed on the short term while the NFL's crush on mobility plays itself out, it should prove to be a short-lived crush and will leave Flynn's value unharmed in the long run.

    The reason? RG3. You know all this quite well, but there's a reason mobile QB's aren't common in the NFL, and it's because they not only expose themselves to injury with their play style, but often allow it to preempt the development of their passing skills in college because they can run so effectively. The option is becoming all the rage, but next year will be that narrow window between the advent of a new gimmick and NFL defenses adapting to it. You won't see the Packers utterly ignore Colin Kaepernick's mobility again.

    The only mobile QB's in the league that go on to have stable careers will be the ones who can still pass well, who can use their mobility intelligently and protect themselves, and who can play patient and take what they're given. Vick has already fallen short of that. RG3, Newton, and Kaep may or may not find ultimate success. Russell Wilson is the pinnacle of the model, and it's honestly not because of his legs. It's his brain.


    I totally love and agree with this post.

    While mobile QBs are truly shiny toys for OCs to play with, they are inherently risky unless they happen to be built to take hits (Newton) or has the smarts to know how to protect themselves through throwing the ball away/sliding (Wilson). Vince Young, Michael Vick, RG3 all have missed significant time due to injury, meanwhile scaring the crap out of their coaches and their fanbase. I don't think pocket passing traditional QBs will be going out of style any time soon.

    Wilson might not be as physically gifted (he's still very physically gifted, don't get me wrong) as Cam Newton or RG3 but what he does have over them is football smarts. When he runs, he's so smart about when to slide and go out of bounds. If something isn't there, he'll throw a ball away rather than force a throw or try to run with blitzers closing in on him.
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  • Well the Read option is nice as QB's learn, but as they age the wheels won't be there, they will accumulate hits. The just athletes will be done quicker then the cerebial QB's, Flynn is a smart guy I think while it's a copy cat league it's also an old school league to. Teams will throw some wrinkles in but will still use whatever the OC thinks is bread and butter.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:Actually, Kearly, while Flynn may be hosed on the short term while the NFL's crush on mobility plays itself out, it should prove to be a short-lived crush and will leave Flynn's value unharmed in the long run.

    The reason? RG3. You know all this quite well, but there's a reason mobile QB's aren't common in the NFL, and it's because they not only expose themselves to injury with their play style, but often allow it to preempt the development of their passing skills in college because they can run so effectively. The option is becoming all the rage, but next year will be that narrow window between the advent of a new gimmick and NFL defenses adapting to it. You won't see the Packers utterly ignore Colin Kaepernick's mobility again.

    The only mobile QB's in the league that go on to have stable careers will be the ones who can still pass well, who can use their mobility intelligently and protect themselves, and who can play patient and take what they're given. Vick has already fallen short of that. RG3, Newton, and Kaep may or may not find ultimate success. Russell Wilson is the pinnacle of the model, and it's honestly not because of his legs. It's his brain.


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  • Flynn has some trade value but its capped because his contract is too expensive to be a backup and he is still an unknown commodity as a starter. I think teams are now more willing to go to young quarterbacks due to the success of Wilson, Kaepernick, Tannehill, RG3, & Luck. Not only that but the rookie wage scale makes it much more cost effective.

    Plus, the market for him isn't going to be much more than what it was last year, especially now having to give up an additional draft pick to get him.

    Oh and since when does 6 feet 4 230 pound quarterbacks who can also run a 4.5 with a strong arm grow on trees?
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  • mretrade wrote:Flynn has some trade value but its capped because his contract is too expensive to be a backup and he is still an unknown commodity as a starter. I think teams are now more willing to go to young quarterbacks due to the success of Wilson, Kaepernick, Tannehill, RG3, & Luck. Not only that but the rookie wage scale makes it much more cost effective.

    Plus, the market for him isn't going to be much more than what it was last year, especially now having to give up an additional draft pick to get him.

    Oh and since when does 6 feet 4 230 pound quarterbacks who can also run a 4.5 with a strong arm grow on trees?



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  • kearly wrote:The NFL is a copycat league, and if there is one thing that defined the 2012 season, it was the emergence of the mobile QB and the validation of the read option in the NFL. While I think most NFL GMs are probably smart enough to know that QBs like Russell Wilson are very rare, QBs like Colin Kaepernick are not. Finding QBs with tools but not skills isn't hard to do, and SF is proving that such a player can lead a potent NFL offense, even without top shelf WRs.

    I see a lot of owners/GMs watching that at home and thinking "why the hell aren't we doing that?" I expect a pretty huge shift in that direction starting immediately this offseason, and though EJ Manuel might have mid round draft grades, will it shock anyone when a team trades up in round 2 to reach for him extra hard? It won't surprise me. This whole situation pretty much sucks the wind out of Matt Flynn's sails. There might be some teams that like Flynn as a backup, which explains the "wait til he's released" logic. Flynn has his fans, just none big enough to pay him starter money or hand him a starting job.


    Maybe Kip ... maybe a few teams. But at the same time, I believe there will also be a lot of teams out there hearkening back to that Ngata hit on RGIII (and ergo his messed up knee) and saying, "See! See! I told you so. Told you that this Zone Read Option stuff just isn't sustainable." I believe you're right that some teams might think be inclined to think that ... but I'm not entirely certain we're going to see any kind of mass exodus to get that type of QB.
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  • Great thread and I personally look forward to the rest of the league doin the copy cat thing. For every Wilson there's 10 dozen Tebows that I am hopeful 31 teams will be wasting high draft choices on. There's no denying athletes today are superior to athletes of yester-year, but if you look at the top 20 QBs of all time, there's like 2 on that list (Young and Elway) that I think really scared teams with their legs. QBs like Staubach and Rodgers could / can run, but not in the sense of what we are seeing with Griffin, Cam and now Kaep. Those guys see off their first option, tuck and run, much like Vick.

    Wilson obviously ran with great success this year too, but i expect to see his game look more like Aaron Rodgers' in the immediate future.

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  • SonicHawk wrote:Jim Harbaugh is an excellent coach. He's just a doosssshhh.

    Kaepernick seems to be an ok QB. I don't think he has the accuracy or the football IQ that RW has, but he's mobile and makes decent decisions on run/pass and an excellent pass protection. They also have had frank gore/james have very good seasons.


    Doesn't Wilson consistently overthrow his receivers, dating back to his college days? I see those comments in these forums all the time. Kaepernick has also fit a lot of passes in extremely tight windows. There is a reason they both made it to the post season. Both are extremely talented QBs with the potential for bright futures ahead of them.

    Also, on the subject of "Wilson is a passer that can run while Kaepernick, Newton and RG3 are run first QBs like Vick", which team had the lowest pass attempts in the NFL?
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  • kearly wrote:The NFL is a copycat league, and if there is one thing that defined the 2012 season, it was the emergence of the mobile QB and the validation of the read option in the NFL. While I think most NFL GMs are probably smart enough to know that QBs like Russell Wilson are very rare, QBs like Colin Kaepernick are not. Finding QBs with tools but not skills isn't hard to do, and SF is proving that such a player can lead a potent NFL offense, even without top shelf WRs.

    I see a lot of owners/GMs watching that at home and thinking "why the hell aren't we doing that?" I expect a pretty huge shift in that direction starting immediately this offseason, and though EJ Manuel might have mid round draft grades, will it shock anyone when a team trades up in round 2 to reach for him extra hard? It won't surprise me. This whole situation pretty much sucks the wind out of Matt Flynn's sails. There might be some teams that like Flynn as a backup, which explains the "wait til he's released" logic. Flynn has his fans, just none big enough to pay him starter money or hand him a starting job.


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  • Mtjhoyas wrote:Not to speak for Kearly, but my honest opinion of Kaepernick vs RW is that one has ungodly tools and a HC who knows how to take full advantage of those tools without making him experience the true rigors of playing QB (ie consistent reads/progressions). RW, on the otherhand IMO, along with great tools, is more adept at making reads/progressions.

    I will probably get flamed for this, but Harbaugh has made life so ridiculously easy for his QBs, dating back to his San Diego days with Josh Johnson. Think about it, name one Harbaugh QB that hasn't been really efficient? Why is this?

    As much as I hate the man, he is brilliant with play design/call. There's a reason he has significant designed movement pre-snap. It basically makes the defense show their entire hand of what they are doing. A simple check optimizes the play call. Furthermore, I have paid very close attention to Kaepernick, and during the ATL game, I can honestly say I never saw him move off of a first read the entire game. Even slow developing plays (like the big V Davis catch), he was simply eyeing him the whole way, and the play design made the crossing routes rub together, allowing Davis unnatural separation on the play.

    I really don't want to discredit Kaepernick as he is a fantastic physical talent (and by all means a smart kid), but I've noticed more often than not, if the first read breaks down, he's a totally different player. And like I said earlier, name a Harbaugh QB who has struggled with efficiency?


    Good post. Said it better than I could have.

    JesterHawk wrote:Joe Webb.


    Joe Webb sucks. Probably doesn't help him that he plays on a team that thinks Christian Ponder was worth the 12th overall pick, or driving the MVP of their passing offense out of town.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:The reason? RG3.


    RG3 was a walking injury before he ever played a down in the NFL. That's why I viewed him as only a top 10 pick instead of the once in a generation type that everyone wanted to make him out to be last year.

    Kaepernick and Wilson both have a long history of being durable. Cam Newton is durable. EJ Manuel is durable. Even RG3 could up his shelf life if he learns how to protect his body.

    I don't think this is a fad. It's not the wildcat, it's not a wrinkle in a playbook. It will become the new normal NFL offense until an even better offense takes it's place down the road. The whole point of the point guard style is that it forces defenses to defend more threats. Plus, it's really hard to defend a QB who is good at running and passing. This has been true for decades. Nothing gimmicky about that.

    Even before the read option wave hit the NFL, evaluators were over-rating QB mobility going back forever (it was the main reason Tom Brady reached the 6th round, and a big reason why nearly half the GMs in the NFL preferred Sanchez over Stafford). Teams have always coveted mobile QBs, but finding good ones who could also throw is hard to do. But with this new system, it makes the life of a QB so easy that it's a lot easier to find those mobile QBs who can also be effective passers. Colin Kaepernick just gashed the crap out of the Falcons without running almost at all. It was because that whole time the Falcons had to waste a defender just to spy Kaepernick as a runner.
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  • The real reason we don't like Kaepernick?

    He looks (and carries himself) like a gang banger!!! Sorry it's true.

    Wilson looks like a "fine young man" and carries himself like a robot. I'll take that any day.

    I might catch heat for that, but that stuff really makes a difference, not because it actually does, but because that's a reflection of character - and character does make a big difference.
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  • Kaep looks like a Smurf with a suntan and blow up arms.
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  • mretrade wrote:Flynn has some trade value but its capped because his contract is too expensive to be a backup and he is still an unknown commodity as a starter. I think teams are now more willing to go to young quarterbacks due to the success of Wilson, Kaepernick, Tannehill, RG3, & Luck. Not only that but the rookie wage scale makes it much more cost effective.

    Oh and since when does 6 feet 4 230 pound quarterbacks who can also run a 4.5 with a strong arm grow on trees?

    Good point about the rookie wage scale, but your last sentence belies your main point. Teams may be more willing to go with a rookie QB if they think they have a rookie QB that can handle the job or if they are desperate. But as you noted, they don't grow on trees -- and this upcoming draft seems to have rather poor offerings for any team hoping for a rookie starter.

    Supply and demand. Or one team's stupidity. That's all it takes for Flynn to be a valuable commodity this offseason.
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  • CaptainSkybeard wrote:The real reason we don't like Kaepernick?

    He looks (and carries himself) like a gang banger!!! Sorry it's true.

    Wilson looks like a "fine young man" and carries himself like a robot. I'll take that any day.

    I might catch heat for that, but that stuff really makes a difference, not because it actually does, but because that's a reflection of character - and character does make a big difference.


    The real reason I don't like Kaepernick is because he wears red and gold and has a big SF on his helmet. I don't care about the tats.

    That said, I find it kind of funny that he'll run for a 50-yard TD and then mock kissing his ARM. Dude, it was your legs that got you there.
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  • volsunghawk wrote:That said, I find it kind of funny that he'll run for a 50-yard TD and then mock kissing his ARM. Dude, it was your legs that got you there.


    He's kissing his tattoos praising the biblical verses on them. He started doing it after the sports writer bashed him for being a "gang banger" and having tattoos.
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  • QuickLightning wrote:He's kissing his tattoos praising the biblical verses on them. He started doing it after the sports writer bashed him for being a "gang banger" and having tattoos.


    ...or maybe because he's just really in to himself... which, from what I've seen of him, interviews, photos, etc... seems more likely.
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  • I think the influx in mobile quarterbacks comes down to the physical talent we're seeing come into the NFL. Back in the day, a quarterback didn't train the way QB's of today train. They didn't do wind sprints, agility drills and practice throwing on the run as much as they did standing in the pocket.

    Once a few mobile quarterbacks came along and showed they could be just as successful as the traditional, stand-in-the-pocket and throw QB's. They had become pioneers for the athletically gifted and extremely mobile QB's of today. Guys like Steve Young are to thank for it. Especially since Young came in and played for a team that enjoyed major success from one of the greatest pocket passing quarterbacks of all-time; Joe Montana, and he was able to play a completely different style while keeping the 49ers on the map. Considering the size of shoes Young had to fill, he was the first amazingly successful mobile quarterback (I know there were some mobile guys before him, but none that were like Steve Young. None that I can think of at least.)

    Now we have more and more teams who have used the traditional style of QB, that are willing to draft a kid that not only has a big arm and all the intangibles, but a set of wheels too. Quarterbacks are no longer on the same athletic level as a place kicker. You have big, strong QB's like Kaep and Tebow (although he's not been as successful at QB, he is an example of the physicality we're seeing in quarterbacks). If Tim Tebow could throw as well as some of the NFL quarterbacks his age, he would be pretty damn scary. Considering he is as big and strong as a lot of the linebackers in the NFL. Hell, even Russell Wilson is not only strong for his size, but he's tough too. You'll most likely never see a 5'11" 205 pound QB running ahead of his RB to throw blocks, especially as often as we've seen Wilson do it this last season. Come to think of it, you don't even see a lot of receivers Wilson's size [and even bigger] throw relatively hard blocks.

    This is not a 'hard' block, but it shows you the speed and acceleration that RW can exhibit. I've seen him throw blocks that knocked DB's (bigger than him) on their ass. Most in the NCAA but I remember seeing one in the NFL. If someone can find a clip of it, that would be awesome. I think he was blocking for Golden Tate on a swing route, when he knocked a DB over. But i'm not positive.



    It looked like Russ tried to line the guy up and destroy him on the block, but at the last second the defender has his back toward him. So he pulled up, to avoid an illegal block in the back. Smart and quick decision. This is not an excuse to put a RW video up, just an example of the athleticism of today's quarterbacks. I could have put some highlights of Cam Newton, Colin Kaepernick or any of the young mobile guys. Then found some videos of older style quarterbacks, from Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas to Montana, Marino and Elway.


    Anyway.. I rambled on again.

    The fact that Flynn is more of a pocket QB than a mobile one, will not be the reason for his lower than expected/hoped value. The reason is simple: Matt Flynn is 28 years old with two career starts. He doesn't have a big arm [average strength at best] and pretty much every GM and Coach in the NFL damn near requires a QB that can throw bullets. Plus, Flynn's price tag doesn't help his trade value either.
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  • Winterfell wrote:
    Mtjhoyas wrote:Not to speak for Kearly, but my honest opinion of Kaepernick vs RW is that one has ungodly tools and a HC who knows how to take full advantage of those tools without making him experience the true rigors of playing QB (ie consistent reads/progressions). RW, on the otherhand IMO, along with great tools, is more adept at making reads/progressions.

    I will probably get flamed for this, but Harbaugh has made life so ridiculously easy for his QBs, dating back to his San Diego days with Josh Johnson. Think about it, name one Harbaugh QB that hasn't been really efficient? Why is this?

    As much as I hate the man, he is brilliant with play design/call. There's a reason he has significant designed movement pre-snap. It basically makes the defense show their entire hand of what they are doing. A simple check optimizes the play call. Furthermore, I have paid very close attention to Kaepernick, and during the ATL game, I can honestly say I never saw him move off of a first read the entire game. Even slow developing plays (like the big V Davis catch), he was simply eyeing him the whole way, and the play design made the crossing routes rub together, allowing Davis unnatural separation on the play.

    I really don't want to discredit Kaepernick as he is a fantastic physical talent (and by all means a smart kid), but I've noticed more often than not, if the first read breaks down, he's a totally different player. And like I said earlier, name a Harbaugh QB who has struggled with efficiency?


    I think all that makes a lot of sense. That CK's job is made easier with Harbaugh, and his strengths are emphasized and his weaknesses softened.

    It's just that saying RW is a rare QB while saying that CK is not rare implies that a QB like CK is easy to find and that RW is heads and shoulders better CK. Which even though I believe RW is going to have the better career, I can't agree that at the moment there is that much of a performance difference between RW and CK. They both are supported by a great defense and physical running back. Both led their teams to wins and the playoffs.

    I would say that at the moment, RW and CK are a very similar kind of QB.

    I'd say RW has the edge in work ethic, composure, football IQ, reading coverages, agility/elusiveness, passing accuracy, pocket awareness.

    But to be fair I would say that CK has a slight edge in arm strength, running speed, and size. Not that RW is a pushover at any of those, but to be fair, that's just what I see.


    Good points on both sides of the conversation. I'll add that one more difference in regards to drafting a "Wilson" vs a "Kaepernick" is readiness. The media make a big deal about the daring decision to switch QBs in mid-season, but Harbaugh and the 9er staff had a season and a half to figure out what to do with CK. Then when forced by injury to Alex Smith, they put the CK experiment into play and stuck with it. Props to them for that, and for taking a guy that could easily have been an ongoing project for many other teams/coaches. It's further testament to Harbaugh's success with QBs that CK hit the ground running (Ha!) and never looked back. (Although he did look very confused at the Clink.)

    But juxtapose that with Wilson, who came in and with his approach, leadership, and play, forced Pete and Co. to realize right away that this kid was ready to lead the team. From a GM perspective, a ready-to-go Wilson or RG3 is much more rare than a fast, physically gifted athlete who played QB against relatively week college competition, I'm guessing. To go with the athletic, but unpolished passer, a GM would have to have great confidence and patience in the QB coach and OC to develop the passing skills and reading NFL defenses side of the young talent's game. That, and a QB in place already.
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  • bestfightstory wrote:Is there a reason this gem wasn't added to the thread entitled 'Matt Flynn expected to be cut'?



    Of course there is!!!!!!


    It's a kearly thought!!!!!


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  • Mtjhoyas wrote:Not to speak for Kearly, but my honest opinion of Kaepernick vs RW is that one has ungodly tools and a HC who knows how to take full advantage of those tools without making him experience the true rigors of playing QB (ie consistent reads/progressions).


    I dunno. We took full advantage of those tools the last time we played 'em.
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  • I agree with the OP somewhat, but Flynn still has value.

    Remember he was the #2 free agent QB last year behind Manning. Add in the fact that this is a down year for the QB draft class (as opposed to last year's incredible draft class)...........so I think there will be quite a bit of interest for Flynn.

    More should shake out on Flynn after the draft, when teams get desperate if they didn't get their guy.
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  • CaptainSkybeard wrote:The real reason we don't like Kaepernick?

    He looks (and carries himself) like a gang banger!!! Sorry it's true.

    Wilson looks like a "fine young man" and carries himself like a robot. I'll take that any day.

    I might catch heat for that, but that stuff really makes a difference, not because it actually does, but because that's a reflection of character - and character does make a big difference.


    This is probably one of the stupidest and most ignorant posts I've ever seen on this site. What has Kaepernick done to look and act like a gangbanger? Has he gotten arrested, thrown up gang signs?
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  • I am still standing by my prediction that Reid trades for Flynn and starts him next season in KC. He fits Andy's preferred west coast style system nearly to a "T" and since they are obviously rebuilding he can sell the fanbase on 'exploring all our options' and 'best chance to win now while we devlop Joe Blow for the future' and all that (Joe Blow will be their 2nd or 3rd round draft choice based on Reid's QB draft pattern). It's win/win for Reid cuz he'll get a QB that can run his offense and if he is better than a career backup then Andy re-signs him and if he's not it gives him time to find the right guy while not having to play a guy like Brady Quinn.

    Now what Seattle gets for Flynn, that's the $64,000 question. I'm predicting their 5th which I believe is the first pick in that round. I think KC leads off rounds 1,3,5,7. And this scenario assumes they still own their 5th rounder btw.
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  • QuickLightning wrote:Doesn't Wilson consistently overthrow his receivers, dating back to his college days? I see those comments in these forums all the time.


    No he doesn't, and no you don't.

    QuickLightning wrote:Kaepernick has also fit a lot of passes in extremely tight windows.


    Not sure I would say a LOT of passes... he's still got a relatively small sample size. And let's be honest, he's got a bullet for an arm, but his touch throws need some work.

    QuickLightning wrote:There is a reason they both made it to the post season. Both are extremely talented QBs with the potential for bright futures ahead of them.


    So Colin Kaepernick not playing, was the reason the 49ers didn't make the playoffs last year! Got it! Err....

    QuickLightning wrote:Also, on the subject of "Wilson is a passer that can run while Kaepernick, Newton and RG3 are run first QBs like Vick", which team had the lowest pass attempts in the NFL?


    You really shouldn't use passing attempts if you want to test that statement. You gotta use the eye test. How many designed runs? How often do the QB's run out of an "option" formation? What's all of these QB's most common reaction to pressure? Do they tuck the ball and run? Or do they scramble to try and find an open receiver downfield? The only QB of those 4 who more times than not, scrambles in order to THROW the ball, is Russell Wilson. Not to say the other QB's couldn't develop that trait, it's just that their natural reaction is to tuck the ball and run. Not sure how this is still in question, it's basically been beaten to a pulp on TV broadcasts all year. Again, just use your eyes.
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  • hawksfansinceday1 wrote:Now what Seattle gets for Flynn, that's the $64,000 question. I'm predicting their 5th which I believe is the first pick in that round. I think KC leads off rounds 1,3,5,7. And this scenario assumes they still own their 5th rounder btw.


    I don't think John and Pete would trade Flynn for only a 5th. I think KC would have to offer something AT LEAST in the 3rd round ballpark.

    Look at the free agent QB's this off season;

    http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features ... nts/fa.php

    It's slim pickin' city. IMO Flynn and Alex Smith are #1 and #2 for QB trades..............and Flynn's contract is much more manageable than Smith, who's set to make 8 million next year, AND get a 1.5 million roster bonus.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    hawksfansinceday1 wrote:Now what Seattle gets for Flynn, that's the $64,000 question. I'm predicting their 5th which I believe is the first pick in that round. I think KC leads off rounds 1,3,5,7. And this scenario assumes they still own their 5th rounder btw.


    I don't think John and Pete would trade Flynn for only a 5th. I think KC would have to offer something AT LEAST in the 3rd round ballpark.

    Look at the free agent QB's this off season;

    http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features ... nts/fa.php

    It's slim pickin' city. IMO Flynn and Alex Smith are #1 and #2 for QB trades..............and Flynn's contract is much more manageable than Smith, who's set to make 8 million next year, AND get a 1.5 million roster bonus.

    Not a chance in hell KC trades the first pick in round 3 for Flynn and I don't see the second pick in round 4 either. Another team may trade a mid to late 4th rounder for him but if he does go to KC as I think, either it's their 5th or they trade up somewhere in the 4th and then trade that pick to Seattle. However, you may be right in that John and Pete just don't trade him if the offer is in that (lower) range. Do keep in mind though that even if all they get is something like KC's 5th, it really frees up some cap space (as has been documented on these boards by several folks) and that alone may be motivation enough to move him for what some people will perceive as below market value.
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  • It's not like the mobile QB was just introduced to the NFL in the last few years.. i think Randall Cunningham was pretty darn mobile as was Cordell stewart, just to name a couple...Mobile QB's have been around for years... i think Flynn will go (if traded) to a team that fits his style of play.. i don't think every team is going to try and adapt to the read option/ pistol type offense.. as stated on hear before 3 of the 4 QB's in the championship games were pocket QB's.. While Vick and Newton certainly brought new dynamics to the league, pure pocket QB's have continued to have far more success.. you may see an increase in mobile QB's over the next few years, but the Pocket QB will always be a part of the NFL.. therefore i do not feel flynn will loose much value if any because of the serge of mobile QB's lately.
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  • hawksfansinceday1 wrote:Not a chance in hell KC trades the first pick in round 3 for Flynn and I don't see the second pick in round 4 either. Another team may trade a mid to late 4th rounder for him but if he does go to KC as I think, either it's their 5th or they trade up somewhere in the 4th and then trade that pick to Seattle. However, you may be right in that John and Pete just don't trade him if the offer is in that (lower) range. Do keep in mind though that even if all they get is something like KC's 5th, it really frees up some cap space (as has been documented on these boards by several folks) and that alone may be motivation enough to move him for what some people will perceive as below market value.


    It's a good problem to have. We don't HAVE to trade him. If the offers right, then he'll be traded, if not, no big deal.....still have one of the best backups in the league.

    Flynn's been 1st class since he's been here, but I betcha his agent is going to start applying pressure on the FO to trade him. Not that that'll affect John and Pete's decision, but I bet we start to hear rumblings from Flynn's camp the closer we get to the draft.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    hawksfansinceday1 wrote:Now what Seattle gets for Flynn, that's the $64,000 question. I'm predicting their 5th which I believe is the first pick in that round. I think KC leads off rounds 1,3,5,7. And this scenario assumes they still own their 5th rounder btw.


    I don't think John and Pete would trade Flynn for only a 5th. I think KC would have to offer something AT LEAST in the 3rd round ballpark.

    I could definitely see Seattle and Kansas City (or another team with a high draft pick) swapping 3rd round picks with Kansas City (or the other team) getting Flynn as compensation for moving down in that round.

    Using the NFL Draft Pick Trade Chart, if KC and Seattle swapped 3rd Round Picks and with KC getting Flynn, the Hawks compensation for trading Flynn would be the #31 pick in the 3rd Round... which I believe would be fair compensation for Flynn.

    Doing the same in the 2nd Round would equate to the #4 pick in the 3rd Round, which I believe is too high for Flynn... and doing the same in the 4th Round would equate to the #21 pick in the 4th Round, which I believe to be too low for Flynn... so swapping 3rd Round picks it is. :th2thumbs:
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  • I don't really care what Flynns trade value is, and in fact, it appears we can't/won't get anything for him. I would ask him to restructure if there are no trade partners wanting to start him.
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  • Largent80 wrote:I don't really care what Flynns trade value is, and in fact, it appears we can't/won't get anything for him. I would ask him to restructure if there are no trade partners wanting to start him.


    You don't care that we could get a 3rd-round pick or something like that for him? I sure do. Our front office is money with those mid-late picks. They'd probably draft the next Justin Smith and everyone would hate the pick because they all thought he was a scrub at the time, or something.
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  • Many of you here really depreciate the talent level Kaepernick has!
    Why?
    Is it that he has done all this in only 9 starts?
    Is it that he has won 2 playoff games while setting a QB record in the first and then going 16-21 in the second while never flinching after the Niners got down 17 points?
    is it the tatoos?

    I get why you all love your QB Wilson, nice kid, smart, talented, well spoken and he won games for you while enjoying a very good defense and a better run game.
    Kaepernick is the same beast...nice kid, smart, talented and well spoken(deflects praise to teammates, just watch the playoff pressers) and he won games for us...None other than Patrick Willi says that Kaepernick is the hardest working player on the team, that Willis shows up early and Kaepernick is already there working out. Give the talented kid some due...we both have bright futures at the QB position imho!
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  • As long as Alex Smith is available (which he WILL be),.........

    ....Flynn's value will be secondary.
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  • Mtjhoyas wrote:
    Winterfell wrote:I'm curious as to what your reasons are for Russell Wilson being a rare QB while Colin Kaepernick is not? I personally see both QBs as having the tools and the skills.

    I personally think the demand for the traditional, big and tall, strong-armed pocket QB won't go down because of the emergence of mobile QBs. Just looking at the Super Bowl, on the other side is Joe Flacco (which is as traditional of a pocket passer as you can get) and he also played phenomenally to lead the Ravens through the playoffs to the Super Bowl.


    Not to speak for Kearly, but my honest opinion of Kaepernick vs RW is that one has ungodly tools and a HC who knows how to take full advantage of those tools without making him experience the true rigors of playing QB (ie consistent reads/progressions). RW, on the otherhand IMO, along with great tools, is more adept at making reads/progressions.

    I will probably get flamed for this, but Harbaugh has made life so ridiculously easy for his QBs, dating back to his San Diego days with Josh Johnson. Think about it, name one Harbaugh QB that hasn't been really efficient? Why is this?

    As much as I hate the man, he is brilliant with play design/call. There's a reason he has significant designed movement pre-snap. It basically makes the defense show their entire hand of what they are doing. A simple check optimizes the play call. Furthermore, I have paid very close attention to Kaepernick, and during the ATL game, I can honestly say I never saw him move off of a first read the entire game. Even slow developing plays (like the big V Davis catch), he was simply eyeing him the whole way, and the play design made the crossing routes rub together, allowing Davis unnatural separation on the play.

    I really don't want to discredit Kaepernick as he is a fantastic physical talent (and by all means a smart kid), but I've noticed more often than not, if the first read breaks down, he's a totally different player. And like I said earlier, name a Harbaugh QB who has struggled with efficiency?


    I don't think Kaepernick will be as good next season as he was this season. I might be wrong, but I think he's a one year wonder.
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  • Ninerguy wrote:Many of you here really depreciate the talent level Kaepernick has!
    Why?
    Is it that he has done all this in only 9 starts?
    Is it that he has won 2 playoff games while setting a QB record in the first and then going 16-21 in the second while never flinching after the Niners got down 17 points?
    is it the tatoos?

    I get why you all love your QB Wilson, nice kid, smart, talented, well spoken and he won games for you while enjoying a very good defense and a better run game.
    Kaepernick is the same beast...nice kid, smart, talented and well spoken(deflects praise to teammates, just watch the playoff pressers) and he won games for us...None other than Patrick Willi says that Kaepernick is the hardest working player on the team, that Willis shows up early and Kaepernick is already there working out. Give the talented kid some due...we both have bright futures at the QB position imho!



    Kaepernick is good and isn't a fluke, but he isn't yet as good as his numbers. He's a lot like Alex Smith- a beneficiary of maybe the best football coach in the world. Kaepernick locks onto receivers, runs a simple offense, and has struggled under adversity.

    Kaepernick's results are nice, and he might be ultra awesome down the road if he grows his skill base, but in 2012 I thought he was a fairly obvious mechanical QB- he was basically the QB John Schneider hoped he'd be getting when he traded for Charlie Whitehurst.

    Worth mentioning- Seattle liked Kaepernick in 2011 but passed on him at #25 despite having a black hole at the position. In 2012, the same GM wanted to burn his #12 pick on Russell Wilson before his scouting department talked him down. He could have had Kaepernick, but passed. For James Carpenter. John Schneider is well known to be thinking at least one year ahead with all his drafts, it's possible that he had his eye on Wilson even as he was making a decision on Kaepernick/Dalton.

    mretrade wrote:Oh and since when does 6 feet 4 230 pound quarterbacks who can also run a 4.5 with a strong arm grow on trees?


    Almost every year you have a QB like Kaepernick sitting in the draft after round 1. In 2007, it was Troy Smith. In 2008, it was Josh Johnson and Dennis Dixon. In 2009, it was Nate Davis. In 2010, it was Joe Webb. Last year it was Colin Kaepernick and Terrelle Pryor. This year it's EJ Manuel. Next year it will be Logan Thomas. A ways after that, it will be Marcus Mario'ta.

    Pretty much every year you can find at least one of them. A lot of them failed because they were not put in the same kind of mechanical QB offense that Kaepernick currently thrives in. Teams are wising up, and discovering that there really isn't such a thing as a college QB anymore. If he has a college skillset, build him a college offense.
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  • Largent80 wrote:I don't really care what Flynns trade value is, and in fact, it appears we can't/won't get anything for him. I would ask him to restructure if there are no trade partners wanting to start him.


    There's no way in hell he'd restructure. If he refuses to restructure, then he gets cut, which is what he wants so he can go try and start somewhere else.
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  • Largent80 wrote:I don't really care what Flynns trade value is, and in fact, it appears we can't/won't get anything for him. I would ask him to restructure if there are no trade partners wanting to start him.

    That MIGHT be true, but it does make you wonder why Schneider is saying he's in no hurry to just trade him away for a bag of peanuts eh?
    Why did Washington draft RGIII and then Kirk Cousins?, their styles of play are NOTHING alike.
    Maybe Schneider wants to KEEP a Quarterback that offers the same kind of change-up to throw at Defenses should Wilson miss some time (GOD forbid)
    Everyone assumes that the Seahawks should look for someone that can run the same system that RW has grown, but that's not really being realistic if you think about it,,Who the hell would be ABLE to replicate Wilson?,,NOBODY
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