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Bruce Irvin's Performance this year (SEA #1 Pick)
1. Bad. look for someone better in Draft 3%  3%  [ 5 ]
2. Descent, but Should not have been 1st pick 34%  34%  [ 59 ]
3. Good, for his rookie year. He should be great next year. 55%  55%  [ 95 ]
4. Great. Worth 1st Pick, was the right choice 8%  8%  [ 13 ]
Total votes : 172
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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:00 am 
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A lot of people like throw in the towel as soon as possible. Carroll and now Quinn are focused on developing their young talent, and they're going to stick by Irvin until he shows that he's not developing or not interested in it. And they certainly wouldn't be tossing him onto the field with regularity if he was showing zero interest in getting better. Patience, please.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:23 am 
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Only 3 people voted 'bad'.

Relax Irvinites.

Most of us have a realistic and tempered approach to this.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:26 am 
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bestfightstory wrote:
Only 3 people voted 'bad'.

Relax Irvinites.

Most of us have a realistic and tempered approach to this.


Irvinites? Really?

It might be one thing if there were folks here proclaiming that he's going to rewrite record books. But most people are just providing info and offering context (context like, "yeah, he was the first DE drafted... good thing he got the most sacks of any DE drafted, right?").

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:29 am 
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TJH wrote:
jammerhawk wrote:
Tough crowd to please around here, really disagree as to the negative thinking on Irvin. Maybe he'll be a Leo and maybe not, but he will be an improved pass rusher next season.



The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.


He lead all rookie pass rushers in sacks. What other pass rusher would you have wanted at 15?

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:32 am 
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T-Sizzle wrote:
TJH wrote:
jammerhawk wrote:
Tough crowd to please around here, really disagree as to the negative thinking on Irvin. Maybe he'll be a Leo and maybe not, but he will be an improved pass rusher next season.



The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.


He lead all rookie pass rushers in sacks. What other pass rusher would you have wanted at 15?


Your assumption is Bruce Irvin vs all other rookie DEs. There were other options at that pick, including trading back.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:34 am 
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bestfightstory wrote:
T-Sizzle wrote:
TJH wrote:


The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.


He lead all rookie pass rushers in sacks. What other pass rusher would you have wanted at 15?


Your assumption is Bruce Irvin vs all other rookie DEs. There were other options at that pick, including trading back.


Carroll and Schneider already said they weren't going to risk trading back with that pick.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:36 am 
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I understand that Carroll and Schneider said that, it doesn't take evaluating/critiquing their decision for conversation's sake off the table.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:36 am 
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I was not impressed with him this year and don't think his stats paint a very appropriate picture unless you look at the game-by-game lines. But, I think he should be capable of growing into the pick and his role, I'm not concerned about him.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:41 am 
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Bruce Irvin does not work well as a lone pass rusher. Clemons could handle it but Irvin couldn't (see Atlanta). We need pressure in the middle and on the other side to smoke out QBs and then Irvin's speed to go in for the kill. That's my dream anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:48 am 
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I think most people forget that this kid started playing football at a higher level late in his life (relatively). 99% of NFL players have spent every year of their life, starting from little league, playing football. Irvin spent his young adult years on the streets, selling drugs, and dealing with a different reality than most here can fathom. I believe he has only had 1 season of major college football under his belt before he was thrust into the big boy league. I don't know what Irvin's football IQ is, but I have to believe that he is a bit behind the game. I think the bulb will finally light for him and he will dominate. Worst case scenario is that it never lights and he simply gets 6-8 sacks a year because of his speed, in a situational pass rusher role. That wouldn't be too bad for the hawks. Point is that his POTENTIAL is exciting.

No need to panic about this kid just yet. If nothing else he's already shown his ability to succeed when life tried to beat him down. If the trend continues on the field then the hawks will have a gem...

Go Hawks!

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:00 am 
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TJH wrote:
Throwdown wrote:
Zowert wrote:
8 sacks, a FF and 20 solo tackles for a guy that got very limited playing time. I don't know why people are so worried, and further more people calling him a bust already.

He's going to get stronger and faster. I'm sure the D line coach will be having Irvin packing on some weight (lean muscle so he can keep his speed).

The thing is, speedy type DE's rarely dominate the NFL. It takes more balanced guys, with speed and power. Bruce has the speed. He's faster than any defensive lineman in the league. He just needs to work hard this off-season and get some power underneath him. He can't push those big O-lineman back, so he has to beat them around the edge. Which is tough because although offensive tackles are big and much slower than him, they can move laterally pretty damn quickly. All they need to do is push Irvin off balance on his way around the edge and he's totally out of the play.


Mel Kiper's still in their ear?


Or maybe we have eyes and can see that he gets destroyed on 95% of plays and forces the team to play 10 on 11 football against the run.


95% !?!? That would mean the other 5% he had a sack or solo tackle. Other than Howard, Bruce Irvin has the least amount of playing time among D-linemen. He would only get a handful of plays a game, except during the three blowout games we had. So basically what you're saying is that Irvin's play is black and white. He can't just do his job, that he's either getting destroyed or making a big play.

I doubt when you're watching a Seahawks game that you're focusing on Bruce Irvin the ENTIRE time. Most likely you happened to see him get pancaked or taken out of a play a few times and came to the conclusion that he's not getting the job done.

I'll admit, I use to do this all the time. Until one of my friends put me in my place by telling me there are 22 players on the field and its impossible to focus on every single one of them on every play. Quarterbacks are basically the only guy on the field you're watching every play. Unless you're a scout for an NFL team and you're at a college game to watch one particular player. But you/we are not. We're fans. So to say that you have eyes and they see Bruce Irvin getting destroyed on 95% of the plays he is on the field for is ridiculous...

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:07 am 
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volsunghawk wrote:
TJH wrote:
jammerhawk wrote:
Tough crowd to please around here, really disagree as to the negative thinking on Irvin. Maybe he'll be a Leo and maybe not, but he will be an improved pass rusher next season.



The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.


Von Miller as a rookie: 11.5 sacks
Aldon Smith as a rookie: 14.0 sacks
Demarcus Ware as a rookie: 8.0 sacks
J.J. Watt as a rookie: 5.5 sacks
Elvis Dumervil as a rookie: 8.5 sacks
Jason Pierre-Paul as a rookie: 4.5 sacks
Osi Umenyiora as a rookie: 1.0 sack

Reggie White as a rookie: 13.0 sacks
Michael Strahan as a rookie: 1.0 sack (4.5 in his first full season)

Bruce Irvin as a rookie: 8.0 sacks

---

Yeah, great pass rushers aren't "usually" great right away. It varies a bit, depending on the player and the system into which they've been inserted. But even if we accept the premise, seems that Irvin is on a Dumervil/Ware type of schedule. Sucks a lot, huh?


You really can't just look at the sacks statstic in a vacuum and expect it to tell you much. I would argue few pass rushers were as worthless as Bruce on the plays were they did not get a sack.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:09 am 
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T-Sizzle wrote:
TJH wrote:
jammerhawk wrote:
Tough crowd to please around here, really disagree as to the negative thinking on Irvin. Maybe he'll be a Leo and maybe not, but he will be an improved pass rusher next season.



The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.


He lead all rookie pass rushers in sacks. What other pass rusher would you have wanted at 15?


I would rather take the best available player appropriate to the draft position and pursue a pass rusher in a different slot.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:13 am 
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volsunghawk wrote:
TJH wrote:
jammerhawk wrote:
Tough crowd to please around here, really disagree as to the negative thinking on Irvin. Maybe he'll be a Leo and maybe not, but he will be an improved pass rusher next season.



The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.


Von Miller as a rookie: 11.5 sacks
Aldon Smith as a rookie: 14.0 sacks
Demarcus Ware as a rookie: 8.0 sacks
J.J. Watt as a rookie: 5.5 sacks
Elvis Dumervil as a rookie: 8.5 sacks
Jason Pierre-Paul as a rookie: 4.5 sacks
Osi Umenyiora as a rookie: 1.0 sack

Reggie White as a rookie: 13.0 sacks
Michael Strahan as a rookie: 1.0 sack (4.5 in his first full season)

Bruce Irvin as a rookie: 8.0 sacks

---

Yeah, great pass rushers aren't "usually" great right away. It varies a bit, depending on the player and the system into which they've been inserted. But even if we accept the premise, seems that Irvin is on a Dumervil/Ware type of schedule. Sucks a lot, huh?


Irvin led all rookies with 8 sacks. So he was the best pass rusher from the 2012 draft. He will be a good one, if he keeps progressing and right now I don't see why he wouldn't progress.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:14 am 
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Zowert wrote:

95% !?!? That would mean the other 5% he had a sack or solo tackle. Other than Howard, Bruce Irvin has the least amount of playing time among D-linemen. He would only get a handful of plays a game, except during the three blowout games we had. So basically what you're saying is that Irvin's play is black and white. He can't just do his job, that he's either getting destroyed or making a big play.

I doubt when you're watching a Seahawks game that you're focusing on Bruce Irvin the ENTIRE time. Most likely you happened to see him get pancaked or taken out of a play a few times and came to the conclusion that he's not getting the job done.

I'll admit, I use to do this all the time. Until one of my friends put me in my place by telling me there are 22 players on the field and its impossible to focus on every single one of them on every play. Quarterbacks are basically the only guy on the field you're watching every play. Unless you're a scout for an NFL team and you're at a college game to watch one particular player. But you/we are not. We're fans. So to say that you have eyes and they see Bruce Irvin getting destroyed on 95% of the plays he is on the field for is ridiculous...


I watch each game usually 3 times whth a critical focus on different aspects each time. Don't assume you know anything about me or my viewing habits.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:16 am 
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lmaoo

You can't discount what Bruce has done in terms of sacks when he was brought in as a primary pass rusher, and a 3rd down specialist, all those guys with the exception of Aldon Smith I believe were every down guys.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:20 am 
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Bruce Irvin has a unique skillset with legit game changer level physical abilities. That's why he's on this team.

Now it's just a matter of Bruce acclimating to the NFL game (which is a whole lot different than where he came from) and the coaching staff finding the best way to maximize his talent. I know Pete claimed once that Bruce was the "ideal Leo", but... maybe he's not. Maybe he's never going to be a 3 down DE that can hang in there against the run, but if he's going to be in the backfield threatening to sack the QB on 2nd/3rd down and +5... I'll be okay with that. I can live with him being a situational pass rusher if he's getting to the quarterback. Dan Quinn is a D-line guru. He'll figure out how best to maximize Irvin's talents. I'm not worried. FWIW, I voted option 3.

Personally I believe he will figure out how to bet in the backfield while still sealing the edge against the run. He's a great athleate and I don't think he's stupid. He just doesn't have the experience that other players his age to. He's gotten by on being an athletic freak up until now, but it doesn't mean he won't learn. Regardless of what role he ultimately ends up playing, I think Bruce Irvin will be good for 10 sacks a year at minimum from now on.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:24 am 
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I think Irvin had a pretty good first year (particularly the first half of the year). But I'm thinking he may just stay in a specialized role unless he can improve in stopping the run. But I have no problem with him staying in a specialized role if he can get 8-9 sacks a year in it.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:28 am 
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TJH wrote:
volsunghawk wrote:
TJH wrote:
The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.


Von Miller as a rookie: 11.5 sacks
Aldon Smith as a rookie: 14.0 sacks
Demarcus Ware as a rookie: 8.0 sacks
J.J. Watt as a rookie: 5.5 sacks
Elvis Dumervil as a rookie: 8.5 sacks
Jason Pierre-Paul as a rookie: 4.5 sacks
Osi Umenyiora as a rookie: 1.0 sack

Reggie White as a rookie: 13.0 sacks
Michael Strahan as a rookie: 1.0 sack (4.5 in his first full season)

Bruce Irvin as a rookie: 8.0 sacks

---

Yeah, great pass rushers aren't "usually" great right away. It varies a bit, depending on the player and the system into which they've been inserted. But even if we accept the premise, seems that Irvin is on a Dumervil/Ware type of schedule. Sucks a lot, huh?


You really can't just look at the sacks statstic in a vacuum and expect it to tell you much. I would argue few pass rushers were as worthless as Bruce on the plays were they did not get a sack.


You also really can't just trot out crap like "great pass rushers are usually great right away" when there's ample evidence that many guys who end up with very good career numbers often start out slow.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:35 am 
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volsunghawk wrote:
You also really can't just trot out crap like "great pass rushers are usually great right away" when there's ample evidence that many guys who end up with very good career numbers often start out slow.



The guys that start out slow are generally the all-around players because they are asked to do much more. Dedicatied specialist rushers generally have been good from the start. Irvin is about as far away from an all-around player as you possibly could have.

I'm not saying he was terrible, but I do not think he warrants his draft position as of yet and can be a huge vulnerability out there. I just get annoyed with the people who just spout out "OMGERD 8 sacks best of the rookies!!1" like that means anything by itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:37 am 
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TJH wrote:
I would rather take the best available player appropriate to the draft position and pursue a pass rusher in a different slot.


He was the "best available player." Also you guys seem to forget we traded back with Philly and got more picks. So we were able to not only get the pass rusher we wanted we were able to get 2 more players. I beleive those were Jaye Howard and Winston Guy.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:44 am 
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jlwaters1 wrote:
TJH wrote:
I would rather take the best available player appropriate to the draft position and pursue a pass rusher in a different slot.


He was the "best available player."


Ummm that is obviously a matter of opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:57 am 
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TJH wrote:
volsunghawk wrote:
You also really can't just trot out crap like "great pass rushers are usually great right away" when there's ample evidence that many guys who end up with very good career numbers often start out slow.



The guys that start out slow are generally the all-around players because they are asked to do much more. Dedicatied specialist rushers generally have been good from the start. Irvin is about as far away from an all-around player as you possibly could have.

I'm not saying he was terrible, but I do not think he warrants his draft position as of yet and can be a huge vulnerability out there. I just get annoyed with the people who just spout out "OMGERD 8 sacks best of the rookies!!1" like that means anything by itself.


You're making no sense whatsoever. You say the great pass rushers start off fast. OK, we'll look at the list compiled by the other poster, he's comparable to virtually every single big time pass rusher. Only Aldon Smith, Von Miller, and Reggie White had better years. So it defeats your argument.

Futhermore to say "he wasn't worth the pick" is assinine. Who would "you" have picked. The pick is gone in any case, it's completely irrelevant at this point in time because it's now a sunk cost.
The fact is his production ranks him easily within the top 1/3 of the all the first round picks. So how does that make him "unworthy" of the pick?

The only 1st round rookies who were more impactfull were:

Luck, RG3, Doug Martin, Kalil, Harrison Smith, Kuechly, Zeitler, and then you could argue a few others like Trent Richardson, Mark Barron, Tannehill, ect..


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:02 am 
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He will work on his tecnique and add some meat in the offseason. I just hope he learns to slip some of the run blocks. He had a good year (voted #3).

My sig says all thats needed as far as his desire to excel.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:02 am 
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You guys are crazy. He led all rookies in sacks...He may not be the heir to the LEO throne, but he will be a 10.0 sacks guy per year, and that's definitely worth it. I also think Quinn will help him out. I honestly can't believe you guys sometimes... SMH

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:04 am 
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bestfightstory wrote:
jlwaters1 wrote:
TJH wrote:
I would rather take the best available player appropriate to the draft position and pursue a pass rusher in a different slot.


He was the "best available player."


Ummm that is obviously a matter of opinion.


But the only opinion that matters is PC and JS. He was the "best available player" according to the 2 poeple who spent countless hours dissecting all the top-end prospects in the draft. And your going to tell me that they were wrong, base on your cursory reasearch? That makes alot of sense. I think I'll trust PC and JS over a bunch of internet posters.

But out of curiosity, who do you suppose was "worthy" of the pick?


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:05 am 
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lukerguy wrote:
You guys are crazy. He led all rookies in sacks...He may not be the heir to the LEO throne, but he will be a 10.0 sacks guy per year, and that's definitely worth it. I also think Quinn will help him out. I honestly can't believe you guys sometimes... SMH


No doubt. Has Golden Tate taught us nothing about these knee jerk proclamations of "this guy's a bum!"? The bad draft picks that we've had; EJ Wilson, Mark Legree, Kris Durham have all been jettisoned with extreme prejudice. If a guy is no good he'll be gone, regardless of where he was drafted. If he's sticks around, the staff will bring out the talent.

Have faith padawans...

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:08 am 
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CANHawk wrote:
lukerguy wrote:
You guys are crazy. He led all rookies in sacks...He may not be the heir to the LEO throne, but he will be a 10.0 sacks guy per year, and that's definitely worth it. I also think Quinn will help him out. I honestly can't believe you guys sometimes... SMH


No doubt. Has Golden Tate taught us nothing about these knee jerk proclamations of "this guy's a bum!"? The bad draft picks that we've had; EJ Wilson, Mark Legree, Kris Durham have all been jettisoned with extreme prejudice. If a guy is no good he'll be gone, regardless of where he was drafted. If he's sticks around, the staff will bring out the talent.

Have faith padawans...


3 guys have voted "he's bad." 3 of 83 as of now. But you two can act like everyone here wants to cut him.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:09 am 
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AbsolutNET wrote:
CANHawk wrote:
lukerguy wrote:
You guys are crazy. He led all rookies in sacks...He may not be the heir to the LEO throne, but he will be a 10.0 sacks guy per year, and that's definitely worth it. I also think Quinn will help him out. I honestly can't believe you guys sometimes... SMH


No doubt. Has Golden Tate taught us nothing about these knee jerk proclamations of "this guy's a bum!"? The bad draft picks that we've had; EJ Wilson, Mark Legree, Kris Durham have all been jettisoned with extreme prejudice. If a guy is no good he'll be gone, regardless of where he was drafted. If he's sticks around, the staff will bring out the talent.

Have faith padawans...


3 guys have voted "he's bad." 3 of 83 as of now. But you two can act like everyone here wants to cut him.


No, I'm just talking to those three guys. Gotsta smack that vocal minority into line sometimes...

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:10 am 
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jlwaters1 wrote:
But the only opinion that matters is PC and JS. He was the "best available player" according to the 2 poeple who spent countless hours dissecting all the top-end prospects in the draft. And your going to tell me that they were wrong, base on your cursory reasearch? That makes alot of sense. I think I'll trust PC and JS over a bunch of internet posters.

But out of curiosity, who do you suppose was "worthy" of the pick?



Well. Russell Wilson and Bobby Wagner, for two.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:28 am 
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bestfightstory wrote:
jlwaters1 wrote:
But the only opinion that matters is PC and JS. He was the "best available player" according to the 2 poeple who spent countless hours dissecting all the top-end prospects in the draft. And your going to tell me that they were wrong, base on your cursory reasearch? That makes alot of sense. I think I'll trust PC and JS over a bunch of internet posters.

But out of curiosity, who do you suppose was "worthy" of the pick?



Well. Russell Wilson and Bobby Wagner, for two.


So, we got TWO frist round caliber picks PLUS Bruce Irvin! #best.draft.ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:40 am 
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jlwaters1 wrote:
Only Aldon Smith, Von Miller, and Reggie White had better years. So it defeats your argument.




Only If you look at sacks numbers in a vacuum devoid of context, which is what people who don't really understand football do.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:41 am 
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[quote="CANHawkHas Golden Tate taught us nothing about these knee jerk proclamations of "this guy's a bum!"?[/quote]


Except for the part where nobody is sayign that.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:52 am 
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bestfightstory wrote:

Your assumption is Bruce Irvin vs all other rookie DEs. There were other options at that pick, including trading back.

Hey revisionist historian, they did trade back to draft Irvin. Plus the Jets were going to take him at 17...

Irvin was the guy they wanted, we all knew how raw he was and he had 8 sacks on pure speed/potential alone. Once he starts to learn new techniques and adds a little more weight, watch out. This kid is going to be special, limited role or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:53 am 
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TJH wrote:
[quote="CANHawkHas Golden Tate taught us nothing about these knee jerk proclamations of "this guy's a bum!"?



Except for the part where nobody is sayign that.[/quote]

You must be new here.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:56 am 
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TJH wrote:
jlwaters1 wrote:
Only Aldon Smith, Von Miller, and Reggie White had better years. So it defeats your argument.




Only If you look at sacks numbers in a vacuum devoid of context, which is what people who don't really understand football do.

Oh ok, so you can throw out names of guys who had worse rookies seasons and when that's brought to your attention that your examples are bogus, you say that no one understands football as well as you...ok...

:chug: lay off your own kool-aid

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:56 am 
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Hawkfan77 wrote:
bestfightstory wrote:

Your assumption is Bruce Irvin vs all other rookie DEs. There were other options at that pick, including trading back.

Hey revisionist historian, they did trade back to draft Irvin. Plus the Jets were going to take him at 17...

Irvin was the guy they wanted, we all knew how raw he was and he had 8 sacks on pure speed/potential alone. Once he starts to learn new techniques and adds a little more weight, watch out. This kid is going to be special, limited role or not.


'revisionist historian'?

I am left to conclude that you do not understand the concept the moniker you have affixed upon me suggests.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:57 am 
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TJH wrote:
Zowert wrote:

95% !?!? That would mean the other 5% he had a sack or solo tackle. Other than Howard, Bruce Irvin has the least amount of playing time among D-linemen. He would only get a handful of plays a game, except during the three blowout games we had. So basically what you're saying is that Irvin's play is black and white. He can't just do his job, that he's either getting destroyed or making a big play.

I doubt when you're watching a Seahawks game that you're focusing on Bruce Irvin the ENTIRE time. Most likely you happened to see him get pancaked or taken out of a play a few times and came to the conclusion that he's not getting the job done.

I'll admit, I use to do this all the time. Until one of my friends put me in my place by telling me there are 22 players on the field and its impossible to focus on every single one of them on every play. Quarterbacks are basically the only guy on the field you're watching every play. Unless you're a scout for an NFL team and you're at a college game to watch one particular player. But you/we are not. We're fans. So to say that you have eyes and they see Bruce Irvin getting destroyed on 95% of the plays he is on the field for is ridiculous...


I watch each game usually 3 times whth a critical focus on different aspects each time. Don't assume you know anything about me or my viewing habits.


If you were so good at evaluating, then you would know that Irvin lead all rookies in sacks. He accomplished that with limited playing time as well... So what do you expect?

How can you take away that fact anyway? Its a good feat, especially for the role he was drafted in, while most were drafted to be full-time pass rushers. As a situation type pass rusher. Not an every down guy. You can argue that a player like Bruce Irvin should have never been picked up so early in the draft, but you don't get paid to do these things. Also, the Seahawks management have done a damn good job in the draft the last couple years. So, I think its best to trust what they're doing. Not someone who only watches games (with no insight on practices, workouts, personal, and in-the-locker-room behavior).

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Last edited by Zowert on Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:07 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:57 am 
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bestfightstory wrote:
Hawkfan77 wrote:
bestfightstory wrote:

Your assumption is Bruce Irvin vs all other rookie DEs. There were other options at that pick, including trading back.

Hey revisionist historian, they did trade back to draft Irvin. Plus the Jets were going to take him at 17...

Irvin was the guy they wanted, we all knew how raw he was and he had 8 sacks on pure speed/potential alone. Once he starts to learn new techniques and adds a little more weight, watch out. This kid is going to be special, limited role or not.


'revisionist historian'?

I am left to conclude that you do not understand the concept the moniker you have affixed upon me suggests.

So are you saying do you don't remember the draft?

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:01 am 
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Do I really have to walk you through this entire thread and hold your hand so you don't get lost??

The fact that they traded back to get to the pick where they selected Irvin, does not change the reality that they could have used that pick in any number of ways INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO........

Are you ready?

.....trading back again.


Get it?

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:05 am 
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bestfightstory wrote:
jlwaters1 wrote:
TJH wrote:
I would rather take the best available player appropriate to the draft position and pursue a pass rusher in a different slot.


He was the "best available player."


Ummm that is obviously a matter of opinion.


And statistics, of course..

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:21 am 
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jlwaters1 wrote:
TJH wrote:
I would rather take the best available player appropriate to the draft position and pursue a pass rusher in a different slot.


He was the "best available player." Also you guys seem to forget we traded back with Philly and got more picks. So we were able to not only get the pass rusher we wanted we were able to get 2 more players. I beleive those were Jaye Howard and Winston Guy.


If you were to use hindsight with last year's DE draft picks, Chandler Jones came out as the "best available player" with where we picked. Full time DE, twice as many tackles, and only three less sacks.

Howard and Guy don't do a whole lot for me. IMO they're going to struggle to be anything other than subs on this defense.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:37 am 
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Hawkfan77 wrote:
TJH wrote:
jlwaters1 wrote:
Only Aldon Smith, Von Miller, and Reggie White had better years. So it defeats your argument.




Only If you look at sacks numbers in a vacuum devoid of context, which is what people who don't really understand football do.

Oh ok, so you can throw out names of guys who had worse rookies seasons and when that's brought to your attention that your examples are bogus, you say that no one understands football as well as you...ok...

:chug: lay off your own kool-aid



No, I am saying that judging players by a single number on a stat column doesn't work. This really should not be that hard to understand.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:54 am 
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TJH wrote:
Hawkfan77 wrote:
Oh ok, so you can throw out names of guys who had worse rookies seasons and when that's brought to your attention that your examples are bogus, you say that no one understands football as well as you...ok...

:chug: lay off your own kool-aid



No, I am saying that judging players by a single number on a stat column doesn't work. This really should not be that hard to understand.

Oh OK, so you watched every single snap from the players you listed rookie years in order to correctly judge them being better than Irvin? Gotcha...

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:59 am 
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Hawkfan77 wrote:
Oh OK, so you watched every single snap from the players you listed rookie years in order to correctly judge them being better than Irvin? Gotcha...


That's why the league keeps stats, so people can form opinions based on performance.

You don't have to be an expert to see that Irvin struggled during large stretches of certain games, and stretches of the season. Only time will tell whether Irvin was the correct pick last year. But if you're ONLY looking at 2012, then there are other rookie DE's that had a better year than Irvin.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:17 pm 
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bestfightstory wrote:
Do I really have to walk you through this entire thread and hold your hand so you don't get lost??

The fact that they traded back to get to the pick where they selected Irvin, does not change the reality that they could have used that pick in any number of ways INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO........

Are you ready?

.....trading back again.


Get it?


to pick WHO, exactly? there's ample evidence to suggest that the player they wanted (Bruce Irvin) would have been picked at 16, which means they traded back exactly as far as they could, without losing out


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Sgt. Largent wrote:
jlwaters1 wrote:
TJH wrote:
I would rather take the best available player appropriate to the draft position and pursue a pass rusher in a different slot.


He was the "best available player." Also you guys seem to forget we traded back with Philly and got more picks. So we were able to not only get the pass rusher we wanted we were able to get 2 more players. I beleive those were Jaye Howard and Winston Guy.


If you were to use hindsight with last year's DE draft picks, Chandler Jones came out as the "best available player" with where we picked. Full time DE, twice as many tackles, and only three less sacks.

Howard and Guy don't do a whole lot for me. IMO they're going to struggle to be anything other than subs on this defense.


3 less sacks and twice as many tackles... in way more attempts
you know that chandler jones was an every-down player? in fact he played more snaps this season than all but 3 players for the pats. so in three times as many attempts he had only 2x as many tackles and 3 less sacks


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:22 pm 
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themunn wrote:
you know that chandler jones was an every-down player? in fact he played more snaps this season than all but 3 players for the pats. so in three times as many attempts he had only 2x as many tackles and 3 less sacks


This is getting lost in the seeming quest to be correct by the same damn characters who always have to be right.

I'd just let 'em cook, bro.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:31 pm 
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themunn wrote:
bestfightstory wrote:
Do I really have to walk you through this entire thread and hold your hand so you don't get lost??

The fact that they traded back to get to the pick where they selected Irvin, does not change the reality that they could have used that pick in any number of ways INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO........

Are you ready?

.....trading back again.


Get it?


to pick WHO, exactly? there's ample evidence to suggest that the player they wanted (Bruce Irvin) would have been picked at 16, which means they traded back exactly as far as they could, without losing out



Don't take this the wrong way, please.

If you can't follow or havent followed this conversation from its start, please do not jump in midstream. Nothing personal, but believe me-you have asked a question of a quote that was directed at a specific person in a specific conversation within a room full of people talking at the same time (that would be a metaphor for this thread).

There is context to the above quote. And your question is not relevant to the argument I was having with that guy.


This whole thread, in fact, is a classic .NET scenario.

A poll is posted.
Less than 3% have an opinion and choose the option that is seen as extreme.
Lynch mobs and goon squads descend upon the thread and assume the worst of everyone's views.
I can't even follow it anymore, myself, and I have been here from the beginning.

My vote was for option #2, btw, if it matters. It's my opinion. It's an opinion. An opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:59 pm 
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I voted for find someone better in the draft.... here is why.
I noticed alot of plays for whatever reason he would drop back 2 feet and stand still.. while the play continued around him. I'm not sure why he did that. and If i get bored i will create a video of what i'm referring too, which happend a few times... To me a player needs to be 100% Drive all the time..

I may change my mind next year, but as of right now, i think we should look for someone better. we may or may not find that person.
he does have speed but no pass rush skills, we knew he was not coached.... so he is basicly in year 1 period.... he will be better next year....i hope. i dont think he was a bad pick... but that wasn't the question ;

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