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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:08 pm 
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hawksfansinceday1 wrote:
Matt Moore as backup please. Dude has played decently to well wherever he's been. He had a very nice year in Miami last year, 16 TDs and 9 INTs.

Just say 'no' to a T-Jack return.


I agree if we could sign Matt Moore and trade Flynn I would be happy. Matt is a FA this year he made $2.75 million sitting on the bench.

If we can trade Flynn for a 3rd rounder or even a conditional 5th rounder that could be improved upon and we can sign Moore as FA for $3.5 million then I think we haven't taken much of a drop-off and would save $3.5 million / year and have the extra pick

You won't get Moore for less than $3million there are several teams that he would be an upgrade on as a starter and the question is would he accept backup role or rather go somewhere where he could win the job like KC, AZ etc


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:08 pm 
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Missing_Clink wrote:
theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
MontanaHawk05 wrote:
I don't see who's going to jump for Flynn. There were three or four QB-desperate teams last March and none of them gave more than a half-hearted offer. He'll probably just get cut.


Agreed. I think we'll cut him unless a team offers a late round pick. And the Seahawks will be free then to add a QB with comparable physical skills to Wilson so they don't have to dramatically switch their game plan if the starter gets injured.

And there's never great demand for a physically mediocre QB approaching 30, earning $7-8m for a season who has to date been a career backup. If you think a team is going to offer much for that, it's wishful thinking. The market was cold for a reason last year. The fact a few others teams are also in need 12 months on means little. Are Kansas City going to jump from Cassel/Quinn to Matt Flynn? Good luck selling that to the fans in KC.


I think this hits the nail on the head. Flynn's value is being overstated by many around here. He is a career backup who has never proven that he can be a franchise saver. For the teams who are desperate, I just do not see them betting it all on Matt Flynn. Personally, I would like to keep him unless it is clear that the Flynn money would be better used elsewhere.


Any team that gives up a mid round pick and pays him his current contract isn't betting it all on Flynn. That's a modest commitment to a stopgap QB with potential to be good for a few years and IMO its worth the gamble to a team desperate for a QB. If he doesn't work out for them, the trade and contract didn't set them back far and they can still draft another QB in 2014 or 2015. Even if he isn't the savior, he's a clear upgrade for about 5 teams right now.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:11 pm 
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mikeak wrote:
hawksfansinceday1 wrote:
Matt Moore as backup please. Dude has played decently to well wherever he's been. He had a very nice year in Miami last year, 16 TDs and 9 INTs.

Just say 'no' to a T-Jack return.


I agree if we could sign Matt Moore and trade Flynn I would be happy. Matt is a FA this year he made $2.75 million sitting on the bench.

If we can trade Flynn for a 3rd rounder or even a conditional 5th rounder that could be improved upon and we can sign Moore as FA for $3.5 million then I think we haven't taken much of a drop-off and would save $3.5 million / year and have the extra pick

You won't get Moore for less than $3million there are several teams that he would be an upgrade on as a starter and the question is would he accept backup role or rather go somewhere where he could win the job like KC, AZ etc


If the Hawks make the Super Bowl this year, you might be able to get Moore on the cheap. Just tell him that the last 2 Matt's to play QB in Seattle have gone to the Super Bowl and there's no way he can say no!

As far as Flynn's trade value is concerned, remember that TJack actually netted us something in return. Barrett Rudd potentially as well. I'd say that Flynn has a little more value than both of these guys. I don't know how much more, but there's definitely value there in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:13 pm 
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I think the FO would likely ask Flynn to take a paycut first.. ala Winslow.
Then I wouldn't mind us trading him for some proven OL talent... I am certain there are some fine players ripe for the picking.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:20 pm 
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mikeak wrote:
hawksfansinceday1 wrote:
Matt Moore as backup please. Dude has played decently to well wherever he's been. He had a very nice year in Miami last year, 16 TDs and 9 INTs.

Just say 'no' to a T-Jack return.


I agree if we could sign Matt Moore and trade Flynn I would be happy. Matt is a FA this year he made $2.75 million sitting on the bench.

If we can trade Flynn for a 3rd rounder or even a conditional 5th rounder that could be improved upon and we can sign Moore as FA for $3.5 million then I think we haven't taken much of a drop-off and would save $3.5 million / year and have the extra pick

You won't get Moore for less than $3million there are several teams that he would be an upgrade on as a starter and the question is would he accept backup role or rather go somewhere where he could win the job like KC, AZ etc

Very good point. He may be signed as a stopgap for one of the QB needy teams that didn't get one of the 3 first rounders kearly mentioned. Hard to say though because it seems to me he's got that "career backup" stigma some guys get. And yeah, money plays an obvious part too. I'm going to hope the Hawks get him, but that for sure might not happen for the reasons you mentioned.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:21 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:07 pm 
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Next year is the target year of our plan here, I doubt you sacrofice a sure back up in that year unless you hve a secured comproable solution. Just becasue we as fans want to crunch numbers and say boot the bum so we can spend it somewhere ele does not mean it will happen.

You all hve such short memorys, at the end of last season we had NOBODY here we thought could play QB. Be greatful we have a situation that is now solid instead of bitching about Flynns contract, the postion is still cheap overall since we can't re negotiate Wilsons contract due to the bargainaing agreement.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:20 pm 
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mikeak wrote:
theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
The most important thing for Seattle to do this off-season is to keep improving, keep building. They aren't going to be able to do that as easily if they're paying a backup $7-8m against the cap. They need to bounce some cap forward, consider the consequences of a LOT of young players starting to hit contract years and make one or two key acquisitions (such as a Randy Starks) to keep improving the starting roster.

All of these things are much more likely if Flynn is traded or cut.


Cut isn't an option really. I think the cap hit would be the full salary for this coming year so the 7-8 million plus the guaranteed for 2014 which is over 2 million so that is a $10 million cap hit (someone correct me if I am wrong).

Trade is an option


This is incorrect. As far as I'm aware, the signing bonus included into Flynn's contract worth $6m means that we paid most if not all of the guaranteed money in the first year of his contract. The deal was essentially structured to make it easy to get out of after one year if needs be... and if Flynn earns the starting job he gets paid nicely via salary for the remaining two years. So it won't cost $7-8m to cut him. I think we'd be on the hook for $2m, meaning a saving of $5-6m. So yeah, cutting him is an option and has been touted by people like John Clayton as a likely occurrence.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Chiefs have 26 Million in Cap. So we trade Flynn for Dwayne Bowe (who has already said he's ready to move on, and would look forward to joining a contending team). We would probably have to give up a 2nd/3rd round pick along with the trade.

The chiefs already had a bad experience with a backup from a really good team, but it's worth a shot.

Could you imagine Rice and Bowe lined up with Baldwin in the slot. That would be sweet. And we could afford to lose a pick this year.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:29 pm 
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chris98251 wrote:
Next year is the target year of our plan here, I doubt you sacrofice a sure back up in that year unless you hve a secured comproable solution. Just becasue we as fans want to crunch numbers and say boot the bum so we can spend it somewhere ele does not mean it will happen.

You all hve such short memorys, at the end of last season we had NOBODY here we thought could play QB. Be greatful we have a situation that is now solid instead of bitching about Flynns contract, the postion is still cheap overall since we can't re negotiate Wilsons contract due to the bargainaing agreement.


Nobody is bitching about Flynn's contract. It's not exactly the most outrageous suggestion that the team would likely find a better use for $5-6m of cap space than spending it on a guy who won't take the field apart from emergency. Even if they don't spend the money on free agents, there are rewards for being under the cap that will help this team re-sign key players in the future. It makes fiscal sense for teams to be under the cap these days. There's a reason why some of the national media (Peter King, John Clayton etc) are suddenly talking about Flynn not being part of this team next year. It's not fans 'number crunching'. It's how the NFL works. You don't need to spend $7-8m on a backup QB. The team will almost certainly want to spend that money on improving other areas of the roster.

And quite frankly - if anybody out there doesn't trust PC and JS to find a cheaper, capable backup... it's time to buy in. Look at their work so far. We don't need Matt Flynn or his contract anymore.

Shock2k wrote:
Chiefs have 26 Million in Cap. So we trade Flynn for Dwayne Bowe (who has already said he's ready to move on, and would look forward to joining a contending team). We would probably have to give up a 2nd/3rd round pick along with the trade.

The chiefs already had a bad experience with a backup from a really good team, but it's worth a shot.

Could you imagine Rice and Bowe lined up with Baldwin in the slot. That would be sweet. And we could afford to lose a pick this year.


Bowe is a free agent, so a trade can only happen if KC is willing to pay 120% of his current salary to keep him on the franchise tag or if they sign him to a new deal.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:36 pm 
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chris98251 wrote:
Next year is the target year of our plan here, I doubt you sacrofice a sure back up in that year unless you hve a secured comproable solution. Just becasue we as fans want to crunch numbers and say boot the bum so we can spend it somewhere ele does not mean it will happen.

You all hve such short memorys, at the end of last season we had NOBODY here we thought could play QB. Be greatful we have a situation that is now solid instead of bitching about Flynns contract, the postion is still cheap overall since we can't re negotiate Wilsons contract due to the bargainaing agreement.


No one said any of this. We're discussing whether it makes sense to pay a backup QB 2-3 times the salary as other backups, and whether that cap space could be used more wisely on securing our own starters or free agents next year.

Obviously we wouldn't trade Flynn unless another capable backup is signed.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:38 pm 
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This whole thread is about the money being paid to Flynn........................

Also since when hs anything Clayton or King had to say about this team been accurate or matter except to support a selected arguement.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:50 pm 
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chris98251 wrote:
This whole thread is about the money being paid to Flynn........................

Also since when hs anything Clayton or King had to say about this team been accurate or matter except to support a selected arguement.


No one said Flynn's a bum, and no one's "bitching" about Flynn's contract.

If you can't see that paying a backup QB 7-10 million a year impacts the cap and might prevent us from resigning players and potential free agents then maybe you should stick to the other threads.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:55 pm 
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kearly wrote:
HawkWow wrote:
IMO, will be there late as well, But after Lienert, do they really want to put their necks out for another Trojan? Sounds like a PR nitemare to me.


A few months ago I was hopeful that Barkley could slide, but I think it's very obvious now that he won't. You have teams all over league tripping over themselves to copy Indy's Curtis Painter tactic from 2011. The Jets purposely not starting Tim Tebow in favor of future CFL player Greg McElroy. Arizona starting Lindley and Hoyer. The Bills GM openly admitting that he will trade up for a QB in the upcoming draft. The Raiders are thinking of turning to Terrelle Pryor (although he might actually be an upgrade over Matt Leinart).

And who are those teams so desperate to tank for? I doubt it's Tyler Wilson, who's this year's Ryan Tannehill (at best). I doubt it's for Geno Smith, who has some ability but has very much cooled off after a hot start. It has to be for Barkley. Let's not forget that many people considered Barkley 1B to Andrew Luck's 1A before this season, and Barkley's white hot finish in 2011 was the reason for USC's pre-season #1 ranking.

Barkley will go #1, or at the very worst, top 5. If KC picks #1, he will be a Chief. If Jacksonville picks #1, he'll either be a Jaguar or sold off to the highest bidder. Do NOT be shocked if we see a huge bidding war for Barkley's services. He will likely be the consensus #1 QB and teams are as hungry as ever for rookie QBs hoping to channel the same success as the 2012 group.


I have read many of your posts/threads and consider you a wealth of football knowledge. Your position on Barkley has inspired me to re-think mine. There are things about Barkley that just scream Leinert to me. Offenses have changed dramatically over the years. Most times to accomadate the fact there are not too many great QBs. Teams are thinking outside the box (like us) but you still don't see too many succesful QBs, at the next level, with avg arm strength.

I agree with your take on Barkley's status prior to last April. He was "the most pro-ready" of the bunch. Did he peak in his Jr year? He didn't exactly fail as a Sr, but look at the weapons at his disposal. Luck had some TEs and a full back. But Luck has a huge arm and that, IMO, seperates him from Barkley. The same, IMO, can be said for RW and Griffin. I sincerely hope he goes higher than I've projected him. That will push at least one player down the board for our scrutiny (Jenkins!). We'll just have to see. After the Hawks win the SB, it's an anxious wait for draft day. I am just so happy we no longer have to concern ourselves with the position. It's been a hell ride.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:58 pm 
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The Radish wrote:
You all ignore the FACTS of Wilson being in his rookie contract for at least 3 years we are probably paying less for our 2 QBs than most teams.


This is true, Les. And just because Flynn may never see a meaningful snap doesn't mean that the $7-8 mil is being wasted. Backup QB's are a big deal.

But even as it stands now, Seattle does not have anywhere near the cap room to sign the Terex-Titan-truckload of elite talent with ominous contract dates coming up. The team needs every penny it can free up. Flynn, given his total physical mismatch for the system, is a prime target.


The Radish wrote:
I think some of you just are never completely happy and have to think up outragous things for something to do.

:141847_bnono:


Well, I can't argue with that.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:05 pm 
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The Radish wrote:
Again I completely disagree with those of you that think Flynn will be traded or released.

You all ignore the FACTS of Wilson being in his rookie contract for at least 3 years we are probably paying less for our 2 QBs than most teams. And why would we trade away a better than decent backup when we have no other in sight and maybe have a chance at a Super Bowl?

Use you heads,,,there is no upside for the Seahawks to trade/release Flynn in any of the scenerios you mention.

Again I'm going to wager he is going no where for at least 2 more seasons. Why? Cause the team can't negotiate a new contract for Wilson until he has played 3 years of his rookie contract. By then, Flynn might very well be to old for any trade value and his best money options would be stay here for the rest of his career.

He can make $3 million a year and hopefully not get his uniform dirty. Not a Super Bowl but damned sure better than most backup QBs can expect.

I think some of you just are never completely happy and have to think up outragous things for something to do.

:141847_bnono:


I am 1000% down with this. We have fans here saying that we will likely "release Flynn" if a deal cannot be reached (via trade). Whaaaaat?

RW does have some super-human characteristics, but that word human sorta jumps out at me. Yes, he knows how to slide and picks his spots very well. Anyone recall the career ending play of (the great) Curt Warner? We are one play away from being average again (without RW / Flynn). Others have stated they would take a 5th for him. I ask...a 5th of what? The only way I could feel good about Flynn going away is if it's for a 2nd (or higher). Seriously. Even then, could we replace him with a 2nd QB? Who would that be?


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:09 pm 
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HawkWow wrote:
kearly wrote:
HawkWow wrote:
IMO, will be there late as well, But after Lienert, do they really want to put their necks out for another Trojan? Sounds like a PR nitemare to me.


A few months ago I was hopeful that Barkley could slide, but I think it's very obvious now that he won't. You have teams all over league tripping over themselves to copy Indy's Curtis Painter tactic from 2011. The Jets purposely not starting Tim Tebow in favor of future CFL player Greg McElroy. Arizona starting Lindley and Hoyer. The Bills GM openly admitting that he will trade up for a QB in the upcoming draft. The Raiders are thinking of turning to Terrelle Pryor (although he might actually be an upgrade over Matt Leinart).

And who are those teams so desperate to tank for? I doubt it's Tyler Wilson, who's this year's Ryan Tannehill (at best). I doubt it's for Geno Smith, who has some ability but has very much cooled off after a hot start. It has to be for Barkley. Let's not forget that many people considered Barkley 1B to Andrew Luck's 1A before this season, and Barkley's white hot finish in 2011 was the reason for USC's pre-season #1 ranking.

Barkley will go #1, or at the very worst, top 5. If KC picks #1, he will be a Chief. If Jacksonville picks #1, he'll either be a Jaguar or sold off to the highest bidder. Do NOT be shocked if we see a huge bidding war for Barkley's services. He will likely be the consensus #1 QB and teams are as hungry as ever for rookie QBs hoping to channel the same success as the 2012 group.


I have read many of your posts/threads and consider you a wealth of football knowledge. Your position on Barkley has inspired me to re-think mine. There are things about Barkley that just scream Leinert to me. Offenses have changed dramatically over the years. Most times to accomadate the fact there are not too many great QBs. Teams are thinking outside the box (like us) but you still don't see too many succesful QBs, at the next level, with avg arm strength.

I agree with your take on Barkley's status prior to last April. He was "the most pro-ready" of the bunch. Did he peak in his Jr year? He didn't exactly fail as a Sr, but look at the weapons at his disposal. Luck had some TEs and a full back. But Luck has a huge arm and that, IMO, seperates him from Barkley. The same, IMO, can be said for RW and Griffin. I sincerely hope he goes higher than I've projected him. That will push at least one player down the board for our scrutiny (Jenkins!). We'll just have to see. After the Hawks win the SB, it's an anxious wait for draft day. I am just so happy we no longer have to concern ourselves with the position. It's been a hell ride.


I think Barkley is way over hyped. Let's get that out of the way. Now I have seen several prognosticators (mcshay, schrager) with him out of the first round. I will say I don't agree with that but him being ruled out of the bowl game with a bad throwing shoulder after a month off isn't going to help his cause. I also think that the 2011 class isn't helping either.


On topic, he has to restructure or kick rocks. The entire secondary has their contract come up within a year other two respectively. Okung is coming up. LTs and CBs are expensive. Way too much talent needing to be paid.


Last edited by CALIHAWK1 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:12 pm 
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"It's how the NFL works. You don't need to spend $7-8m on a backup QB. The team will almost certainly want to spend that money on improving other areas of the roster.

And quite frankly - if anybody out there doesn't trust PC and JS to find a cheaper, capable backup... it's time to buy in. Look at their work so far. We don't need Matt Flynn or his contract anymore."



+1. It is nothing to do with Flynn's potential ability as a starter. It is everything to do with English's point


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:12 pm 
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theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
mikeak wrote:
theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
The most important thing for Seattle to do this off-season is to keep improving, keep building. They aren't going to be able to do that as easily if they're paying a backup $7-8m against the cap. They need to bounce some cap forward, consider the consequences of a LOT of young players starting to hit contract years and make one or two key acquisitions (such as a Randy Starks) to keep improving the starting roster.

All of these things are much more likely if Flynn is traded or cut.


Cut isn't an option really. I think the cap hit would be the full salary for this coming year so the 7-8 million plus the guaranteed for 2014 which is over 2 million so that is a $10 million cap hit (someone correct me if I am wrong).

Trade is an option


This is incorrect. As far as I'm aware, the signing bonus included into Flynn's contract worth $6m means that we paid most if not all of the guaranteed money in the first year of his contract. The deal was essentially structured to make it easy to get out of after one year if needs be... and if Flynn earns the starting job he gets paid nicely via salary for the remaining two years. So it won't cost $7-8m to cut him. I think we'd be on the hook for $2m, meaning a saving of $5-6m. So yeah, cutting him is an option and has been touted by people like John Clayton as a likely occurrence.


You are correct my number is wrong. Went and did some more research. The way I think it is puts it in the middle of what I have and what you have :)
The $6 million gets spread on 3 years - signing bonus. Then you would have to add the $2 million guaranteed so $4 million per year. Now if you cut him that is $4 million and then you have to pay someone else so the point still stands you are not cutting Flynn. Even trading him without getting anything is better....


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:16 pm 
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I'm starting to change my stance on Matt Flynn. For the last several months, I've felt that having a good backup has a lot of value and shouldn't be discarded without much thought. Actually, I still feel that way, but I had a bit of a change of heart when I looked up Flynn's contract details at Spotrac today:

Matt Flynn's Cap hit-

2013: $7.25 million (2 mil guaranteed)
2014: $8.25 million (2 mil guaranteed)

For comparison's sake, Flynn's cap hit this season was only $4 million.




Quote:
Flynn will be paid $7.25 million next season and $8.25 million the next. If it was $4 million, I'd agree. But at that steep a price, I suspect he'll be gone this offseason.


So this isn't about money? This was the OP.

Quote:
And for all we know he could've been the reincarnation of Kevin FitzCassellKolb and been entirely mediocre, as is the case with most backups turned starters.

I don't feel sorry for Flynn. He's making bank and having to do jack for it. What a tough break.


Quote:
And there's never great demand for a physically mediocre QB approaching 30, earning $7-8m for a season who has to date been a career backup. If you think a team is going to offer much for that, it's wishful thinking. The market was cold for a reason last year. The fact a few others teams are also in need 12 months on means little. Are Kansas City going to jump from Cassel/Quinn to Matt Flynn? Good luck selling that to the fans in KC.




Quote:
I would like to see him in a Cardinal uniform next year. I just think he is average and it would continue to hold back that franchise imo.




So nobody is thinking Flynn is a bum?

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:30 pm 
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CALIHAWK1 wrote:
[

I think Barkley is way over hyped. Let's get that out of the way. Now I have seen several prognosticators (mcshay, schrager) with him out of the first round. I will say I don't agree with that but him being ruled out of the bowl game with a bad throwing shoulder after a month off isn't going to help his cause. I also think that the 2011 class isn't helping either.


On topic, he has to restructure or kick rocks. The entire secondary has their contract come up within a year other two respectively. Okung is coming up. LTs and CBs are expensive. Way too much talent needing to be paid.



As a Dawg fan, I will be watching Barkley's replacement, Wittek, vs ND very closely. If I am seeing what I (fear) think I am seeing, USC won't miss Matt Barkley...and that sux.

On Flynn: Too frequently I am seeing the phrase "career back-up" when referencing him. I mean, was he backing up Favre and Rodgers or Sanchez and Tebow? That should be considered before using such a phrase. Besides, "career back up" isn't really all that bad of a thing. He has been around the NFL for quite some time without getting beat to a pulp. I like that about him. But some think he's a bum because he couldn't beat out Rodgers? Really? He's our second "career back-up" from the QB factory that is GB. If he's anything like the first, he's a keeper in my book.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Someone earlier called Flynn a "poor man's Matt Ryan" and intended it as a compliment, but I don't think that comparison does Flynn any favors. Ryan is a limited QB who needed a good offense to boost him, definitely on the "system" side of the QB spectrum. What kind of talent did it take to lift the Falcons to the top of the NFC this year? Four first-rounders, four second-rounders, and two fourth-rounders between Roddy White, Julio Jones, Tony Gonzalez, and the offensive line. I don't even want to know that cap hit, and that's without the contracts of Michael Turner or the defense.

No struggling team is going to want a high-maintenance QB who requires that kind of expenditure to build around. Some of the pieces will already have to be there, which shrinks the market as some of those teams are entirely bankrupt on offense.

In examining Flynn's market, I highly doubt that Matt Barkley, Geno Smith, OR Tyler Wilson get out of the Top 5. The Chiefs, Jaguars, Raiders, and possibly Buffalo are all picking there and at least three of them will be doing so with new head coaches and/or GM's.

Cleveland and Tennessee are 50/50 to look for a free-agent QB. So are Philly and the Jets; Nick Foles and Greg McElroy might have done enough to earn themselves a look considering that neither team will have a shot at the Top 3 QB's in the draft.

Then you have to remember that next year's market will also include Tim Tebow (he'll still sell tickets) and Alex Smith (who went down because of injury and lost momentum to the younger guy, not because he was sucking). Between all these factors, I still don't see Flynn's market being all that terribly wide.

That's not to say it will be non-existent. If our own community's reaction back in March is any indicator, Flynn might sell tickets. But we're talking about Matt Ryan arm strength and mobility here, the range of QB that requires more help before he can start giving help. It's hard to envision any of the floundering teams in the #5-10 range going "Yeah, this guy is a franchise savior" and coughing up a major draft pick for him. He's the next best option to the Top 3 QB's, maybe, and even then a lot of those teams still have other options. The only team I can see with enough talent to enable Flynn is maybe the Jets, and after years of Mark Sanchez, I don't think anyone there is going to get excited about the prospect of another mediocre-armed QB.

Late round pick at best, probably, is all Flynn can get us.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:53 pm 
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Why is someone trying to argue that people are suggesting this isn't about money?

Of course it's about money. It's about having more money to improve the starting roster of the team and have maximum potential to re-sign key starters in the future. That's how you keep growing. Alternatively we can eat one of the most expensive contracts on the roster for a guy who will likely be holding a clipboard again next year. And my point still stands - if you don't trust PC and JS to find a cheaper, capable backup QB to replace Flynn... it really is time to buy in.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:03 pm 
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MontanaHawk05 wrote:
Late round pick at best, probably, is all Flynn can get us.


Replace the name Flynn with Palmer and that's what Marvin Lewis once told Mike Brown. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:15 pm 
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HawkWow wrote:
MontanaHawk05 wrote:
Late round pick at best, probably, is all Flynn can get us.


Replace the name Flynn with Palmer and that's what Marvin Lewis once told Mike Brown. ;)


Just because one team made that mistake doesn't mean another will.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:22 pm 
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MontanaHawk05 wrote:
The Radish wrote:
You all ignore the FACTS of Wilson being in his rookie contract for at least 3 years we are probably paying less for our 2 QBs than most teams.


This is true, Les. And just because Flynn may never see a meaningful snap doesn't mean that the $7-8 mil is being wasted. Backup QB's are a big deal.

But even as it stands now, Seattle does not have anywhere near the cap room to sign the Terex-Titan-truckload of elite talent with ominous contract dates coming up. The team needs every penny it can free up. Flynn, given his total physical mismatch for the system, is a prime target.


The Radish wrote:
I think some of you just are never completely happy and have to think up outragous things for something to do.

:141847_bnono:


Well, I can't argue with that.
There is still an elephant in the quarterback room when the guy taking the snaps has a gamecheck 1/16th the size of the backup guy.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:38 pm 
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MontanaHawk05 wrote:
HawkWow wrote:
MontanaHawk05 wrote:
Late round pick at best, probably, is all Flynn can get us.


Replace the name Flynn with Palmer and that's what Marvin Lewis once told Mike Brown. ;)


Just because one team made that mistake doesn't mean another will.


True, but Palmer isn't the first or last time such a thing has happened. With Flynn under contract, any team that has interest in him will have to dive into the shark tank with JS. If we can't get what we want for him, I am certain he will remain a Hawk. There is no benefit to us trading him for a late rd pick, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:13 pm 
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The Radish wrote:
He can make $3 million a year and hopefully not get his uniform dirty. Not a Super Bowl but damned sure better than most backup QBs can expect.


Uh, he's not making $3 million a year. He's making $15.5 million over the next two seasons. And the Seahawks could use the money right now.

HawkWow wrote:
There is no benefit to us trading him for a late rd pick, IMO.


That is only true if you think Flynn is worth $7.25 million next year. I personally do not. Trade him, turn that pick into this year's equivalent of Kirk Cousins and pay him 1/15th as much. Then use that money in 2013 and 2014 to improve your roster and ensure that Baldwin, Chancellor, Browner, and Thurmond remain Seahawks.

People shouldn't forget money when evaluating players. Value added per dollar is the true measure of a players worth to a franchise- it's the very reason why Green Bay, Seattle, and Pittsburgh have so adamantly professed building through the draft instead of FA because the draft has by far the best value per dollar you can find. More value per dollar means more total talent which means more wins.


Last edited by kearly on Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:27 pm 
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MontanaHawk05 wrote:
Someone earlier called Flynn a "poor man's Matt Ryan" and intended it as a compliment, but I don't think that comparison does Flynn any favors. Ryan is a limited QB who needed a good offense to boost him, definitely on the "system" side of the QB spectrum. What kind of talent did it take to lift the Falcons to the top of the NFC this year? Four first-rounders, four second-rounders, and two fourth-rounders between Roddy White, Julio Jones, Tony Gonzalez, and the offensive line. I don't even want to know that cap hit, and that's without the contracts of Michael Turner or the defense.


That was me. And I agree, Flynn will probably need a strong supporting cast to find success, just like Ryan does.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:36 pm 
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Scottemojo wrote:
There is still an elephant in the quarterback room when the guy taking the snaps has a gamecheck 1/16th the size of the backup guy.


How is it an elephant in the room? RW is in a rookie contract and it doesn't matter to him if the other guy makes one dollar or $10million dollars...


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:52 am 
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Well after reading through the thread I'm rather in the court of moving Flynn.

I think a 4th is completely reasonable for Flynn. Looking at what other teams have offered for QB's and the number of options available I can't see at least one team not jumping for Flynn. It only takes one. I could see a team doing exactly what we did last year, not to mention I don't think this set of rookie QB's will be quite as NFL ready. The money is not an issue for a number of teams that have huge cap spaces they need to fill.

I think there are teams out there kicking themselves for not going for Flynn. One thing I never ever understood was the Browns not going for Flynn. Honestly Weeden is pretty damn similar, was a rookie, and cost a FIRST ROUND PICK. What the hell...

Even if it's more in the 5th-6th range it'd still make sense I think. We do need to clear money and honestly the way Pete has talked about rookie QB's and Schneider speaking of taking QB's every year if available means a rookie backup QB could be very likely. Bring in a vet and have a competition behind RW. Pete would love that.

Remember that Pete is extremely adamant about making the QB's job as easy as possible. I think that the way our team is built we can survive without an "elite level backup". We could probably survive with a cheap risk-averse veteran. I'm sure Pete and John talk about how dollars are allocated. Backup QB probably isn't a spot they have to invest a ton in. Russell Wilson isn't the least bit injury prone and I imagine the more he learns the less read option they run and add talent too the offense.

Most teams don't have elite backups, not that in itself makes it bad, but it's a luxury and rarely plays a huge factor in season. I'd rather have a higher ceiling with Russell in most of our games, than a bit better chance to win if Russell misses a few games. CHARLIE got us a win against the Rams to get to the playoffs and beat the Giants in NY. Not that he really "won" either, but we sure didn't lose the games right?

And I kinda want to see Flynn get a job somewhere. I know some of you don't care about that stuff, but I think it should factor a little. Makes the FO look better.

Some of the cold hearted renegotiations combined with moving Flynn could play a huge factor in upgrading next years squad and keeping the core together.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:14 am 
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mikeak wrote:
Scottemojo wrote:
There is still an elephant in the quarterback room when the guy taking the snaps has a gamecheck 1/16th the size of the backup guy.


How is it an elephant in the room? RW is in a rookie contract and it doesn't matter to him if the other guy makes one dollar or $10million dollars...


I guess we disagree. Again.

Just a guess on my part, Flynn will not be in uniform for the Hawks when the '13 regular season begins.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:16 am 
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I think whats really being said here is the Money spent on Flynn could be used else where to keep what we have in place.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:50 pm 
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I can't figure out why anyone would think that we would cut Flynn. I believe he's worth a 3rd round pick at minimum. At worst, we could get a 5th or 6th for him. We got what? A 6th for TJack? We gave up a 3rd+ for Whitehurst. Look around the league and see what teams are giving up for a QB.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:22 pm 
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I don't see how Flynn would have gone from having little interest in FA (yeah Manning blah blah blah, doesn't explain pretty much zero interest) to being worth a 3rd rounder to a team. Flynn hasn't done anything to raise his stock this year from coming off of the big numbers in GB.

TJack is going to yield us a 7th, the 6th was conditional. He's worth a low pick because he's shown to be a so-so stop gap option at the position but will never be a franchise guy. That could very well be how teams view Flynn. We blew it with Charlie because apparently John or Pete thought Charlie could be a potential franchise QB and the Chargers having no urgency to move him were in a strong position, so we overpaid. It was a mistake. Other GMs are going to see our cap situation and our upcoming expiring contracts and know that the Hawks would really like to move Flynn, and they're probably right. If a team believes he's a franchise guy we might be able to squeeze them, but barring that, we're going to be talking about a late round pick + the other big benefit which is freeing up some important cap space.

If they can pull off something more I'd be ecstatic, just don't see it as likely.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:34 pm 
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If Flynn was a free agent and we didn't have any other backup QB under contract, would anyone here want to sign him for 2 years and $15.5 million to be the backup instead of getting some other backup for a fraction of the cost? If not, why would you want to keep him around under that contract if we could trade him for any compensation and use that money in other areas?


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:59 pm 
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I guess my real thoughts here are not about money but about the success of the current team.

Lets say we trade Flynn and run down some also ran for a backup. First game of next season Wilson gets hurt and is out for 4-5 games and we have no one with any experience in our offense or even team for that matter.

Then how does your $15 million argument stand up?

:les:

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:21 pm 
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The Radish wrote:
I guess my real thoughts here are not about money but about the success of the current team.

Lets say we trade Flynn and run down some also ran for a backup. First game of next season Wilson gets hurt and is out for 4-5 games and we have no one with any experience in our offense or even team for that matter.

Then how does your $15 million argument stand up?

:les:


By that logic, we should keep Flynn for the rest of Wilson's career, purely because of his experience. At some point you have to go out and find someone cheaper.

Maybe one year while we draft and train a capable backup.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:28 pm 
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MontanaHawk05 wrote:
The Radish wrote:
I guess my real thoughts here are not about money but about the success of the current team.

Lets say we trade Flynn and run down some also ran for a backup. First game of next season Wilson gets hurt and is out for 4-5 games and we have no one with any experience in our offense or even team for that matter.

Then how does your $15 million argument stand up?

:les:


By that logic, we should keep Flynn for the rest of Wilson's career, purely because of his experience. At some point you have to go out and find someone cheaper.

Maybe one year while we draft and train a capable backup.



Never said keep him forever. I have said in my personal opinion it would be stupid to get rid of him prior to next season. And if nothing can be found next year then bite bullit and keep him another.

It takes time to find a good quality backup that fits with your team. There are just so many David Greenes out there.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:31 pm 
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The Radish wrote:
I guess my real thoughts here are not about money but about the success of the current team.

Lets say we trade Flynn and run down some also ran for a backup. First game of next season Wilson gets hurt and is out for 4-5 games and we have no one with any experience in our offense or even team for that matter.

Then how does your $15 million argument stand up?

:les:

Well, if you used the 15 million to lock up a couple of our own, plus sign a decent backup QB for a lot less than you are paying the current guy, it stands up pretty good.

Les, I trust these guys. If Flynn goes, do we have any reason to think they won't have somebody decent to back up Russell next year?

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:38 pm 
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pinksheets wrote:
I don't see how Flynn would have gone from having little interest in FA (yeah Manning blah blah blah, doesn't explain pretty much zero interest) to being worth a 3rd rounder to a team. Flynn hasn't done anything to raise his stock this year from coming off of the big numbers in GB.


You can't judge this year by last years results. Those disinterested teams thought they had it made with Gabbert/Kolb/Ponder/Palmer/Vick/Freeman/Sanchez+Tebow/Fitzpatrick/Weeden/Cassell/Locker. They found out otherwise.

So do they continue with what they have, take a chance using a 1st round pick on a QB again? Or maybe they use a 2nd, 3rd or 4th round pick on a QB? Highly unproductive way of finding a franchise QB.

They could go after a trade/free agent that has had a modicum of success. It all depends on their situation. If they believe they have a talented team and are just a Quarterback away, I think a team would consider trading for Flynn. If they think they need someone that can start while their young QBOTF learns, or one that knows how to prepare to start in the NFL to mentor their young QB, I think they would consider someone like Flynn over the scraps that are on the street.

Anyway, there are a lot of variables including a front office's tenure and it's impossible to predict with any accuracy. But I believe with the current QB/FO situation being so unsettled on so many teams that Matt Flynn has that kind of value. Only time will tell.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:41 pm 
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I've seen a few people here suggest the Eagles trade for Flynn and being the resident Eagles fan here, Allow me to just say no thank you.

Foles has performed decently considering how down the Eagles offensive side of the ball has been. In the games Nick Foles has started, he's been without

#1 WR DeSean Jackson
#1 RB Shady McCoy
#1 TE Brent Celek
#1 LT Jason Peters
#1 C Jason Kelce
#1 RG Danny Watkins (although I tend not to count this since he's terrible)
#1 RT Todd Herremans

Now he had a few of those guys for a game or two but for the most part, he's been working with a lot of backup garbage.

With the OLine being back to healthy next year and I anticipate the Eagles targeting a guy like Luke Joeckel in the Top 5 which will turn that OLine back into something strong.

I think whoever comes in to take of the Eagles will give Foles a full season with a healthy line and offensive weapons and then go from there.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:42 pm 
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Would GB fans be somewhat unhappy if this was the second qb out of the past 3 that ended up in Minnesota.....

I actually really hope Flynn does NOT go to Minnesota. That would be a great fit for them and a team that I definately could see spending a 3rd round pick on Flynn. AP gives anyone time to throw and a 3rd rounder for Flynn is nothing they could still pick a rookie qb in the first round (try a good one this time) and be really tough next year


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:15 pm 
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Scottemojo wrote:
The Radish wrote:
I guess my real thoughts here are not about money but about the success of the current team.

Lets say we trade Flynn and run down some also ran for a backup. First game of next season Wilson gets hurt and is out for 4-5 games and we have no one with any experience in our offense or even team for that matter.

Then how does your $15 million argument stand up?

:les:

Well, if you used the 15 million to lock up a couple of our own, plus sign a decent backup QB for a lot less than you are paying the current guy, it stands up pretty good.

Les, I trust these guys. If Flynn goes, do we have any reason to think they won't have somebody decent to back up Russell next year?


I'll jump in here and say yea. I have reservations about them being able to turn around and find a back up right away. They took a couple of false steps and all of 2 and a half years to get to the level of play of a Russell Wilson.

I certainly wouldn't consider any of the previous candiates as exceptable backups. Plus, prospect Josh Portis didn't develop and survive as a 3rd string project.

The team has been thru trying times for want of a quarterback. If they are going to gamble, why not do so with a rotation specialist like a Jason Jones? Afterall, doesn't a backup quarterback trump a backup/specialist lineman?


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:17 pm 
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mikeak wrote:
.........I actually really hope Flynn does NOT go to Minnesota. That would be a great fit for them and a team that I definately could see spending a 3rd round pick on Flynn. AP gives anyone time to throw and a 3rd rounder for Flynn is nothing they could still pick a rookie qb in the first round (try a good one this time) and be really tough next year

I agree that he would be a very good fit for the Viqueens. Good call. The (rhetorical) question is, are they willing to admit Ponder was a mistake after only 2 seasons?



xkj1985x wrote:
I've seen a few people here suggest the Eagles trade for Flynn and being the resident Eagles fan here, Allow me to just say no thank you. Foles has performed decently considering how down the Eagles offensive side of the ball has been.........


The wildcard in your thinking is whomever the new coach is and how much does he like Foles? Like you, I wouldn't bench Foles in favor of Flynn, particularly if I'm not a WCO guy. But, who's the new coach and what type of offense he runs will be the deciding factor in whether or not Foles is the starter, Flynn aside.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:32 pm 
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hawksfansinceday1 wrote:
much does he like Foles? Like you, I wouldn't bench Foles in favor of Flynn, particularly if I'm not a WCO guy. But, who's the new coach and what type of offense he runs will be the deciding factor in whether or not Foles is the starter, Flynn aside.


Well its too early to tell but the name the Eagles appear to be in love with and there is a rumor that Howie Roseman (Eagles GM) has already talked to is Chip Kelly.

Now Foles doesn't fit Chip Kelly's Run & Shoot style of offense so that would be interesting. Vick said today that he won't take a paycut to stay in Philly so thats also a bit of a wrench thrown into things.

Kelly had made mention of Foles when he was in the Pac 12 that he loves Foles and that he was glad he was leaving the Pac 12 for the NFL Draft last year so who knows if there is anything to that IF the Eagles bring on Foles.

But you are 100% correct, a lot of unknowns until you see who the Eagles bring in. I just don't expect them to be in the Flynn market.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:49 pm 
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If Minnesota moves on from Ponder, it seems unlikely they'd spend a mid-round pick for another QB with mediocre physical tools. They might as well stick with Ponder. For their GM to admit he made a major mistake drafting Ponder, he's going to need more than the skill set Flynn is offering.

There really aren't as many teams out there as people think that are going to be interested in Flynn. Maybe none.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:05 pm 
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Until the coaching carousel stops spinning, there is little use trying to figure out where Flynn might go. New regimes, new quarterbacks.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:57 pm 
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It's been said more than once in this thread that QB situations change drastically from year to year. Agreed, and it could almost be said week by week. I don't profess to know every nuance about evaluating a future pro-QB. That said, I'm not exactly in awe of those that claim they do, LOL...There's probably more busts than not at the position. It is (apparently) true there wasn't alot of interest in Flynn last year aka "The year of the QB". Someone compiled a nice list earlier in the thread that showed the vets that should be looking for work (like in another profession). Those teams will consider Flynn. Now, let's look at this draft. I will get slaughtered for this but IMO, Cousins or Foles would be first rd talent, compared to those who will be drafted this year. I am of the opinion there is not a QB in this draft much better, if better at all, than either of those two.

Kearly made a point about money and it was an excellent one. But unless we get 'more than he's worth', I'd hang on to Flynn for at least one more year.

Another poster commented that "Flynn is an average QB at best". How is it that you know more about him than we do? Are you looking at his numbers at LSU? No team in the history of this game evaluates QBs better than GB. They held onto Flynn for several years, that's good enough for me. I believe a buyer is going to be there for him and we are going to get excellent value for him.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Matt Flynn
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:16 pm 
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theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
If Minnesota moves on from Ponder, it seems unlikely they'd spend a mid-round pick for another QB with mediocre physical tools. They might as well stick with Ponder. For their GM to admit he made a major mistake drafting Ponder, he's going to need more than the skill set Flynn is offering.

There really aren't as many teams out there as people think that are going to be interested in Flynn. Maybe none.



How can you know what the skill set of Flynn is?

We only know what we saw, what you saw, what they saw.
The only thing they have seen is him throwing some gaudy numbers.

Unrealistic? true. but that doesnt concern us, it only concerns a desperate GM.
All this desperate GM see's is the PERCEIVED VALUE that can save his ass that is hanging on a sling.

Several factors loom for this off season
1) Crappy crappy qb class in the draft
2) Many desperate teams looking for a qb
3) Many desperate GM's looking for a qb
4) Flynn's very attractive financial package
5) No really decent starters from the list of backup qb's now available in the league.
6) Hawks not in a desperate situation to unload him, meaning they can play a cool cool cumcumber in trade negotiations.

Again, we don't trade Flynn.. but rather we are trading his PERCEIVED VALUE, his perceived potential and that can be argued and argued, but all we know is ..what 6 TD's in 1 game?

So I think we are in a very good shape here with Flynn.


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