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 Post subject: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:30 pm 
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I just read a pretty good article about how the Hawks and the Niners mirror one another and the thing that confused me a little was that some of the chat after the article was the Niner fans claiming that we copied their plan for building a team. I really thought it was the other way around. Am I wrong?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000114542/article/seattle-seahawks-san-francisco-49ers-nearly-identical


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:33 pm 
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No one really copied the other. That would just be stupid, and there is clearly different philosophies.

That said, we clearly started first. Not sure how they can argue they started first, as Pete Carroll was hired one year before Harbaugh.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Here is what is funny about that: I have ahd Niner fans both tell me that we copied Harbaugh's Niners even though Pete started his rebuild while Harbaugh was still at Stanford, and then tell me that Harbaugh did not inherit a talented roster. The two statements are at odds.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:42 pm 
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While there are definitely some similar aspects of the two teams, there are a ton of differences as well. I think most football knowledgeable fans can easily see that.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:44 pm 
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grizrgood wrote:
While there are definitely some similar aspects of the two teams, there are a ton of differences as well. I think most football knowledgeable fans can easily see that.


yeah... mainly the defenses. No one really has a defense quite like ours.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:48 pm 
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Pete and john pretty much turned over our entire team they inherited..
hairball intherited an awesome team that didn't play well and made it work as it should have worked.. THus making use of what he had... Seattle Built there team niners copied.
Period

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:51 pm 
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The way I remember it is that Singletary was adding some pretty good talent to that team for a while before he got the boot. We obviously had one of the biggest most complete rebuilds that I can remember just prior to Harbaugh getting the job. Singletary couldn't get them over the hump- In comes Harbaugh all the while PC & JS are finding our future. Thanks guys-


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:55 pm 
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Pete had to make a cake from scratch, while Harbaugh got to take over with the cake already in the oven :49ersmall:

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:03 pm 
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The Niners were absolutely loaded with talent when Harbaugh got there, so, I guess as far as personnel, the 49ers built a big defense first.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:07 pm 
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grizbob wrote:
Pete had to make a cake from scratch, while Harbaugh got to take over with the cake already in the oven :49ersmall:

I saw what you did there :roll: .......................................................................................And I 200% :th2thumbs: agree


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:42 pm 
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Even if one team copied game philosophies from another (which I doubt), and/or even if the Seahawks/49ers have many similarities in the way they play, it is STILL pretty bizarre how identical/similar many of their stats are. Normally two teams that prescribe to the same style of play still end up with relatively different stats.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Yeah, the 9ers came up with the idea of building a strong, fast defense with a downhill running game and an efficient passing game.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:47 pm 
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Scottemojo wrote:
Here is what is funny about that: I have ahd Niner fans both tell me that we copied Harbaugh's Niners even though Pete started his rebuild while Harbaugh was still at Stanford, and then tell me that Harbaugh did not inherit a talented roster. The two statements are at odds.


The second one is way off base it's laughable. At least the first one is understandable if you didn't follow the Seahawks closely. But heck, I'm not even a 49ers fan and I knew exactly how loaded that roster was. With Mike Singletary, who was maybe the worst coach in the NFL, they destroyed the soon to be division winning Seahawks 40-21 in 2010. Think about it. How many players on the current 49ers team were drafted by Harbaugh? Kaepernick, Aldon Smith... it's not a terribly long list. It's pretty flippin' obvious that he inherited a very good team that was very weak at QB. He put Smith in position to succeed, and that's pretty much all he had to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:20 pm 
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um the Seahawks haven't given up 4 straight TDs all season? COPY THAT!!!

had to... the Niners, lol

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:31 pm 
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AbsolutNET wrote:
Yeah, the 9ers came up with the idea of building a strong, fast defense with a downhill running game and an efficient passing game.


Absolut wins the internet for the day. The teams that feature these things have been the successful franchises for decades.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:32 pm 
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If we had copied the 9ers, it would have taken us 10 years to be a playoff contender. We skipped right over that part of the rebuild, unlike them.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:45 pm 
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Not too mention, it wasn't until RussWilson proved success that Harbaugh decided it was time to try out the youth with higher ceiling and lower floor, at the same position. This was clear cut, copycat to the ballsy move Pete made during preseason.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:01 pm 
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We copied the Niners, LOL!

The Niners after 10 or so years of being in the NFL wilderness and getting early draft picks finally reached critical mass with all their early draft picks. J&P have taken our favourite team and turned it around in three short years after Ruskell took just three season after 2005 to cripple it. No copying at all.

We all need to ignore these SF trolls who are easily as annoying as Rams fans were prior to 2004. There is no question the Niners are now a very good team but it has been a long road back to respectability for them.

For the Hawks it finally appears there may be a future that doesn't involve constant mediocrity. It's been fun watch JS and PC massage the roster incrementally adding depth while drafting well to add quite a few especially talented player who are now fulfilling their draft promise or surpassing it. All these small steps over a far shorter period than taken by the 9ers have lead suddenly to a quantum leap forward for yhe Hawks with the exceptional performance of RW. There are lots of others who after coming here have created this team. They are maybe not as well recognized by the national media as the guys from SF just yet, but the Hawks are now a young talented team that has solid depth. Those unrecognized as exceptional will soon get that recognition after just few more W's

The future look bright, a future championship team is being built here.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:09 pm 
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kearly wrote:
Think about it. How many players on the current 49ers team were drafted by Harbaugh? Kaepernick, Aldon Smith... it's not a terribly long list. It's pretty flippin' obvious that he inherited a very good team that was very weak at QB. He put Smith in position to succeed, and that's pretty much all he had to do.


Drafted:
Aldon Smith
Colin Kaepernick
Chris Culliver
Kendall Hunter
Bruce Miller
Lamichael James

Free Agents:
Carlos Rogers
Donte Whitner
Mario Manningham
Randy Moss
Jonathan Goodwin

Backups promoted to starters:
Navorro Bowman
Alex Boone


There have been plenty of players added in the Harbaugh/Baalke era who are starters or backups that see extensive playing time. None of the players listed were starters pre-Harbaugh. Seattle drafted a lot of talent and the front office has done a very good job, but to pretend Harbaugh just walked into a plethora of pro bowl quality starters in place is naive. They've made extensive roster changes.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Disp wrote:
kearly wrote:
Think about it. How many players on the current 49ers team were drafted by Harbaugh? Kaepernick, Aldon Smith... it's not a terribly long list. It's pretty flippin' obvious that he inherited a very good team that was very weak at QB. He put Smith in position to succeed, and that's pretty much all he had to do.


Drafted:
Aldon Smith
Colin Kaepernick
Chris Culliver
Kendall Hunter
Bruce Miller
Lamichael James

Free Agents:
Carlos Rogers
Donte Whitner
Mario Manningham
Randy Moss
Jonathan Goodwin

Backups promoted to starters:
Navorro Bowman
Alex Boone


There have been plenty of players added in the Harbaugh/Baalke era who are starters or backups that see extensive playing time. None of the players listed were starters pre-Harbaugh. Seattle drafted a lot of talent and the front office has done a very good job, but to pretend Harbaugh just walked into a plethora of pro bowl quality starters in place is naive. They've made extensive roster changes.

No why in the world would u go stating facts,,, sont u know these hawks fans love to make up shit to fit there hate if our team... to say Harbaugh Did nothing and just walked iun and coached a team is ridiculous... What he did with Alex Smith is almost better than anything Pete has done in the NFL lol


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:22 pm 
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Disp wrote:
kearly wrote:
Think about it. How many players on the current 49ers team were drafted by Harbaugh? Kaepernick, Aldon Smith... it's not a terribly long list. It's pretty flippin' obvious that he inherited a very good team that was very weak at QB. He put Smith in position to succeed, and that's pretty much all he had to do.


Drafted:
Aldon Smith
Colin Kaepernick
Chris Culliver
Kendall Hunter
Bruce Miller
Lamichael James

Free Agents:
Carlos Rogers
Donte Whitner
Mario Manningham
Randy Moss
Jonathan Goodwin

Backups promoted to starters:
Navorro Bowman
Alex Boone


There have been plenty of players added in the Harbaugh/Baalke era who are starters or backups that see extensive playing time. None of the players listed were starters pre-Harbaugh. Seattle drafted a lot of talent and the front office has done a very good job, but to pretend Harbaugh just walked into a plethora of pro bowl quality starters in place is naive. They've made extensive roster changes.



If you're going to brag about Moss, Manningham and LaMichael, might as well add Jacobs. Those names DONT help your point.

To me, it's the offensive and defensive lines being set. In rebuilding a team, that's the key, ALWAYS. That was set when he walked in. I EXPECTED him to turn Alex around.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Moss and Manningham are the #2 and #3 receivers on the team. The offensive and defensive lines were not set. Isaac Sopoaga and Ray McDonald were playing different positions and roles, and Goodwin/Boone are new. That's 4/8 players on the line that are different since 2010.

I'm not "bragging". I'm helping correct your mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Disp wrote:
kearly wrote:
Think about it. How many players on the current 49ers team were drafted by Harbaugh? Kaepernick, Aldon Smith... it's not a terribly long list. It's pretty flippin' obvious that he inherited a very good team that was very weak at QB. He put Smith in position to succeed, and that's pretty much all he had to do.


Drafted:
Aldon Smith
Colin Kaepernick
Chris Culliver
Kendall Hunter
Bruce Miller
Lamichael James

Free Agents:
Carlos Rogers
Donte Whitner
Mario Manningham
Randy Moss
Jonathan Goodwin

Backups promoted to starters:
Navorro Bowman
Alex Boone


There have been plenty of players added in the Harbaugh/Baalke era who are starters or backups that see extensive playing time. None of the players listed were starters pre-Harbaugh. Seattle drafted a lot of talent and the front office has done a very good job, but to pretend Harbaugh just walked into a plethora of pro bowl quality starters in place is naive. They've made extensive roster changes.



Woah there champ. I would not call that extensive roster changes. Extensive roster changes is when you have a total of (Obo, Bryant, Mebane, Unger, Hill, Trufant) 6 players pre 2010. 6. That's it. That's extensive roster changes.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:49 pm 
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That's 13 players in 2 years. I would call that extensive roster changes. As would anyone else who's not a Hawks fan trying to argue what you're arguing. Tiger.


Last edited by Disp on Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:50 pm 
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I think Harbaugh's a GREAT coach. I was maybe one or two of the people on this board saying "umm, guys, SF just got Harbaugh, he's GOOD!. So, dont get your Harbaugh insecure-panties in a bunch.

But he walked into a situation with talent misused/poorly coached at; DL, OL, QB, TE and Crabtree. Umm, that's not exactly the 1990 Cowboys, pooky.

And, in reference to the OL/DL, that's 2/8's. Plus, no team which needs rebuilding would be adding Manningham, Moss or a LaMichael those are luxurious FA's for teams set. Kind of proves the point.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:59 pm 
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I can't wait for this game to be over so the Whiner fans can get off our board and go back to theirs...Bah! I can't believe how they stalk this forum. I have NEVER intruded on their space. I just don't get it. Sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:07 pm 
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Disp wrote:
That's 13 players in 2 years. I would call that extensive roster changes. As would anyone else who's not a Hawks fan trying to argue what you're arguing. Tiger.


Guess how many Carroll has added in 3? 47.

THAT'S extensive roster changes. Not 13 players, that's your basic restocking through the draft at 7 players per year, and free agency.

Seriously, not even close to extensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:09 pm 
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Disp wrote:
kearly wrote:
Think about it. How many players on the current 49ers team were drafted by Harbaugh? Kaepernick, Aldon Smith... it's not a terribly long list. It's pretty flippin' obvious that he inherited a very good team that was very weak at QB. He put Smith in position to succeed, and that's pretty much all he had to do.


Drafted:
Aldon Smith starter
Colin Kaepernick starter
Chris Culliver just as good as our starter, considered a starter in certain packages
Kendall Hunter best compliment to Gore we could ever ask for
Bruce Miller starter
Lamichael James just started playing, put us in position to win the game last week

Free Agents:
Carlos Rogers starter
Donte Whitner starter
Mario Manningham top three reciever
Randy Moss starter if you don't understand what he does for this offense, the your probably not worth talking football with
Jonathan Goodwin starter

Backups promoted to starters:
Navorro Bowman starter
Alex Boone starter


There have been plenty of players added in the Harbaugh/Baalke era who are starters or backups that see extensive playing time. None of the players listed were starters pre-Harbaugh. Seattle drafted a lot of talent and the front office has done a very good job, but to pretend Harbaugh just walked into a plethora of pro bowl quality starters in place is naive. They've made extensive roster changes.


Ya Harbaugh and Baalke had nothing to do with acquiring the talent for this team.

What are we talking about here? Almost half the starting lineups were acquired by or moved into position by Harbaugh/Baalke. A few of these guys are known as top, if not the top, in the league.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:12 pm 
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Disp wrote:
That's 13 players in 2 years. I would call that extensive roster changes. As would anyone else who's not a Hawks fan trying to argue what you're arguing. Tiger.


Dude, c'mon. You're one of the smarter ones (and by ones I mean that in whatever offensive way you can take it). But, 13 players? Really?

Personally, I can say Harbaugh's a good coach who took over a good situation. Why cant you?

I'll most likely be saying that about whomever the Browns coach is next year (unless its Mike Nolan or Singletary).


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:42 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:48 pm 
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pehawk wrote:
Disp wrote:
That's 13 players in 2 years. I would call that extensive roster changes. As would anyone else who's not a Hawks fan trying to argue what you're arguing. Tiger.


Dude, c'mon. You're one of the smarter ones (and by ones I mean that in whatever offensive way you can take it). But, 13 players? Really?


I don't think you're understanding my point. This is a vastly different team than the 2010 one. Every one of those players is integral to the team. The only ones that aren't really starters are Lamichael James and Kendall Hunter, but here's the thing; Gore can't be a feature back at this point in his career. He can't carry the ball as many times as Marshawn can, so Hunter/James are absolutely imperative to the offense. If it's Gore and Anthony Dixon then the running game doesn't work, because Gore can't carry more than about 15 or 20 times a game. My point is there have been significant roster changes on the 49ers. No, not as significant as the Seahawks obviously, but to say the 49ers are using the same team as they had before Harbaugh and have really only added Aldon Smith/Kaepernick is assinine.

The 49ers had Brett Swain, Joe Hastings, and Ted Ginn as their #2, 3, and 4 receivers at the end of the year last year. Never heard of 2 of those guys? Exactly. So yeah, all 13 of those players are either starters, or the entire complexion of the team changes without them.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:01 pm 
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And I'm saying Harbaugh walked into a very good situation. Talent at DL, OL, QB, RB, TE and one very talented WR. A bad coach takes that and gets Nolan/Singletary results. An average coach can immmediately turn that to 8-9 wins. A great coach, well, 13 wins.

It's also better than 90% of rebuilds, you know that. Hell, if you have OL and DL talent, that's 7 wins for most coaches.

The Browns job will be a VERY similar situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Without the players they acquired last offseason through the draft and free agency the 49ers were not a 13 win team. Crabtree was considered a major bust until a couple weeks ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:26 pm 
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Disp wrote:
Without the players they acquired last offseason through the draft and free agency the 49ers were not a 13 win team. Crabtree was considered a major bust until a couple weeks ago.

No, he wasn't. Curry was a bust. Crabtree had almost 70 catches last year? I think maybe you are exagerating his bustness. Besides, if it was just a couple of weeks ago Crabs popped, methinks the bust was behind center.

Why the angst here? Harbaugh went 13-3 his first year. It certainly wasn't on the backs of Rookies. It isn't an insult to say he inherited a talented team. So did Singletary, but he was a shitty coach.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:30 pm 
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Using the words "vast" and "extensive" is a bit ridiculous. That type of personnel movement is not going to be far beyond the average year to year turnover for most teams.

Talk Harbaugh up as a coach, that's an obvious way to go, but the personnel situation and rebuild is not even close to what Carroll and Schneider walked into and accomplished in that department.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:36 pm 
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One staff came in and knocked down the house and rebuilt from the foundation up into a pretty nice home, the other one bought a foreclosure with potential and upgraded the fixtures and build a gazebo in the back yard.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:56 pm 
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pinksheets wrote:
Using the words "vast" and "extensive" is a bit ridiculous. That type of personnel movement is not going to be far beyond the average year to year turnover for most teams.

Talk Harbaugh up as a coach, that's an obvious way to go, but the personnel situation and rebuild is not even close to what Carroll and Schneider walked into and accomplished in that department.


Well you guys claims they've been rebuilding and have benefited from high draft picks for 10 years, so when they change and replace about 10 of 22-ish starters in 2 years, I would consider that vast and extensive changes. How about you?


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Disp wrote:
pinksheets wrote:
Using the words "vast" and "extensive" is a bit ridiculous. That type of personnel movement is not going to be far beyond the average year to year turnover for most teams.

Talk Harbaugh up as a coach, that's an obvious way to go, but the personnel situation and rebuild is not even close to what Carroll and Schneider walked into and accomplished in that department.


Well you guys claims they've been rebuilding and have benefited from high draft picks for 10 years, so when they change and replace about 10 of 22-ish starters in 2 years, I would consider that vast and extensive changes. How about you?


Vast and extensive is more than 13 guys in 2 years...Pete Carroll and John Schneider set an NFL record for transactions over their first two years. Using your draft picks and signing 3 or 4 FA's every year is what every team does every year.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:04 pm 
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Well dude earlier said there are 6 players starting from the 2009 Seahawks team right? Which means the Seahawks have an average of about 6 new starters per year, correct? 49ers have an average of 5 new starters per year under Harbaugh.


Last edited by Disp on Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:06 pm 
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Disp wrote:
Well dude earlier said there are 6 players starting from the 2009 Seahawks team right? Which means the Seahawks have an average of about 6 new starters per year, correct? 49ers have an average of 5 new starters per year under Harbaugh.


There are only 6 left from that team period. Everyone else has been blown out and replaced.

Our team was a rebuild. Yours was not.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:09 pm 
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Disp wrote:
Well dude earlier said there are 6 players starting from the 2009 Seahawks team right? Which means the Seahawks have an average of about 6 new starters per year, correct? 49ers have an average of 5 new starters per year under Harbaugh.


53-6/3 = 15.7 new players on the ACTIVE ROSTER per year...but really it was much higher in the first 2 years and fell off this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:53 am 
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Let me ask a bit different question of the Niners fans: how is the Harbaugh philosophy for the team different than the Singletary philosophy of the team? The team still has the O-Line (a little retooling is standard in the NFL) and running game from the Singletary era. They are still running the 3-4 defense that Singletary used. Harbaugh is simply a better coach and has gotten better execution out of the team, but it's not like they revamped everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:01 am 
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I can't wait for this game to be over so the Whiner fans can get off our board and go back to theirs...Bah! I can't believe how they stalk this forum. I have NEVER intruded on their space. I just don't get it. Sorry.


ninner fans are like spouses (don't want to come off as a sexest by saying wives) you can't live with em and you can't shoot em :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:18 am 
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If harbaugh was as great a coach as the ninny fans are trolls around here, then guessing they would win two superbowl per year.


He is a good coach though obvious had a ton O' talent, to start with, had all those many low draft picks.. Has drafted well, not as good as the Hawks lately, though but decent ;)

Was cute to to see them back in the playoff last year after what ... 10 seasons ?


Copying ? deluded I think.


Last edited by Uffda on Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:42 am 
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I think we are starting to steer away from the OP. The topic is how the Niners "fans" think we are copying them with they way we have built our team. If some of you Niner fans on this board want to chime in on that I would like to know why you agree or disagree with your "fellow" fans?

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:45 am 
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No one really copied the other. That would just be stupid, and there is clearly different philosophies.

That said, we clearly started first. Not sure how they can argue they started first, as Pete Carroll was hired one year before Harbaugh.


Very simply. Mike Singletary AND Mike Nolan *tried* but failed to build the kind of team the 49ers and Seahawks have. However, they didn't fail at either the defense or the OL-line, or the rest of the offense. Their only failure was at QB. But in establishing the mold, it was here before Harbaugh. Harbaugh just improved the QB position and varied the offensive scheme. The type of team we are, however, was set in motion AT LEAST by 2008, and really, the 49ers had been trying to do it since Mike Nolan in 2005. They just failed repeatedly at it, and it all came back to the quarterback position.



EDIT- But to note, Mike Nolan had blatantly admitted to wanting to copy the Steelers and Ravens, the tough, physical teams that were in the hunt every year. So, technically, you could argue that both the Seahawks and the 49ers are trying to copy the Steelers and Ravens. Or you could just say that they are both trying to copy the mold of a physical team that can suffocate an offense on defense and pound a defense to submission on offense with balance, but still throw in some flash. The truth is for the 49ers, however, that when it all began with Nolan, it was blatantly admitted that the teams they were trying to emulate were the Steelers/Ravens (and it is no coincidence that Nolan came from Baltimore, and more, so did Mike Singletary).


BASF wrote:
Let me ask a bit different question of the Niners fans: how is the Harbaugh philosophy for the team different than the Singletary philosophy of the team? The team still has the O-Line (a little retooling is standard in the NFL) and running game from the Singletary era. They are still running the 3-4 defense that Singletary used. Harbaugh is simply a better coach and has gotten better execution out of the team, but it's not like they revamped everything.


Right. But it goes back even further, all the way to Nolan. Nolan had the vision from the start, but didn't have the skill, particularly on offense. What Harbaugh has brought is his technical expertise at the quarterback position, and his skill in evaluating talented offensive staff. The teams that were copied was the Ravens and the Steelers, according to Nolan, who basically said as much around the time he began...


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:14 am 
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Pete is using everything he learned from a lifetime of playing and coaching. Yes, some of it came from his time working with Seifert and Walsh in San Francisco. He also learned from Bud Grant when he was with the Vikings. His association and friendship with Monte Kiffin is well known. Last I knew, he still phoned his high school FB coach before every game, just to chat for a few minutes (heard that one a few years back, and I have no idea whether the gentleman is still living).

Harbaugh also has a lifetime of experience that he's drawing from. Obviously he and Pete have some similarity in their approach. So did Nolan and Singletary. But that doesn't mean they're trying to copy each other. They just want to win.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:33 am 
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5_Golden_Rings wrote:
hawksfan515 wrote:
No one really copied the other. That would just be stupid, and there is clearly different philosophies.

That said, we clearly started first. Not sure how they can argue they started first, as Pete Carroll was hired one year before Harbaugh.


Very simply. Mike Singletary AND Mike Nolan *tried* but failed to build the kind of team the 49ers and Seahawks have. However, they didn't fail at either the defense or the OL-line, or the rest of the offense. Their only failure was at QB. But in establishing the mold, it was here before Harbaugh. Harbaugh just improved the QB position and varied the offensive scheme. The type of team we are, however, was set in motion AT LEAST by 2008, and really, the 49ers had been trying to do it since Mike Nolan in 2005. They just failed repeatedly at it, and it all came back to the quarterback position.



EDIT- But to note, Mike Nolan had blatantly admitted to wanting to copy the Steelers and Ravens, the tough, physical teams that were in the hunt every year. So, technically, you could argue that both the Seahawks and the 49ers are trying to copy the Steelers and Ravens. Or you could just say that they are both trying to copy the mold of a physical team that can suffocate an offense on defense and pound a defense to submission on offense with balance, but still throw in some flash. The truth is for the 49ers, however, that when it all began with Nolan, it was blatantly admitted that the teams they were trying to emulate were the Steelers/Ravens (and it is no coincidence that Nolan came from Baltimore, and more, so did Mike Singletary).


BASF wrote:
Let me ask a bit different question of the Niners fans: how is the Harbaugh philosophy for the team different than the Singletary philosophy of the team? The team still has the O-Line (a little retooling is standard in the NFL) and running game from the Singletary era. They are still running the 3-4 defense that Singletary used. Harbaugh is simply a better coach and has gotten better execution out of the team, but it's not like they revamped everything.


Right. But it goes back even further, all the way to Nolan. Nolan had the vision from the start, but didn't have the skill, particularly on offense. What Harbaugh has brought is his technical expertise at the quarterback position, and his skill in evaluating talented offensive staff. The teams that were copied was the Ravens and the Steelers, according to Nolan, who basically said as much around the time he began...


I call BS (friendly BS). The niners would have won the SB with that very QB(if Kaep over Smith is what you mean by improving the QB position) if Kyle Williams doesn't go full retard. We already saw what you can do against a Gronkless New England team, not a doubt in my mind Alex Smith has a ring if Kyle gets out of the way. I agree with you on Smith's limits, but Harbaugh could have Dilfered a ring last year.

What Harbaugh brought was offensive ingenuity. His offense is so QB friendly it isn't funny. You watch Alex Smith when he ends up somewhere else, then lots will see just how good of an environment Harbaugh builds for his QB. I love his Line backer freezing heavy sets that the Niners have been adept at passing from. In particular, teams not in the NFC west have been flummoxed by those looks. The Bears didn't know what to do to adjust to the passes coming from those heavy sets, and if they had adjusted, the Niners would have just run the ball. Some of the blocking schemes Harbaugh brought from Stanford are just astounding in this age of spread looks, and while we do some of that, it is nowhere on the level of the Niners.

Now, if I was going to ding Harbaugh on one thing, it is that I see him trending to not developing his young guys enough. It is a minor nit to pick, but he reminds me of Holmgren to the degree in which he rides his veterans. I don't think Harbaugh has much tolerance for the mistakes young guys make. Kaepernick is the exception, but I think Harbaugh was really frustrated with just how limited Smith really is.

For us Seahawk fans, hard nosed football is a novelty, something we have not seen since Cortez and the early 90's, and our offense was the worst in NFL history, so we wasted that defense. Even winning with Holmgren, the finesse label was frustrating, and certainly why we could not win road games.

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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:35 pm 
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Disp wrote:
kearly wrote:
Think about it. How many players on the current 49ers team were drafted by Harbaugh? Kaepernick, Aldon Smith... it's not a terribly long list. It's pretty flippin' obvious that he inherited a very good team that was very weak at QB. He put Smith in position to succeed, and that's pretty much all he had to do.


Drafted:
Aldon Smith
Colin Kaepernick
Chris Culliver
Kendall Hunter
Bruce Miller
Lamichael James

Free Agents:
Carlos Rogers
Donte Whitner
Mario Manningham
Randy Moss
Jonathan Goodwin

Backups promoted to starters:
Navorro Bowman
Alex Boone


There have been plenty of players added in the Harbaugh/Baalke era who are starters or backups that see extensive playing time. None of the players listed were starters pre-Harbaugh. Seattle drafted a lot of talent and the front office has done a very good job, but to pretend Harbaugh just walked into a plethora of pro bowl quality starters in place is naive. They've made extensive roster changes.


Just a quick question for you. How many players drafted THIS year are playing for the niners THIS year? James is the only rookie that has played a snap and he's only on the field because the guy in front of him got hurt. If the niner draft was soooooo good, I would think that at least ONE of them would have started a game by now. Hmmm.... Maybe the team was pretty much SET when Hairball got there or maybe the niner front office got lucky in the 2011 draft and they actually suck at drafting. One of those things has to be true.


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 Post subject: Re: Question- who copied who?
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:49 am 
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Disp, you are really starting to sound like a troll around here...

He rearranged a handful of players he already had, mostly, to turn a decent defense into an elite one. Don't even come close to getting started on the subject of acquiring talent in regards to Harbaugh. It'll be a couple years before that can be evaluated well. He also passed up Richard Sherman, who he knew and converted to CB at Stanford, in the draft. Now, most of the NFL analysts put him on the same plane as Revis. Before his second year, and he only played like 2/3rds of last year. Who was Chris Clemons before we got him for peanuts from Philly? Doug Baldwin, also coached by Harbaugh at Stanford, went undrafted and he was our leading receiver last year, and one of the best rookie receivers in the NFL. You'd think Harbaugh would have grabbed at least one of the two he knew. Sherman, in particular; you NEVER pass up an elite player. How well Harbaugh can draft and fill team needs remains to be seen. Carroll blew up the Seahawks and started from scratch. As of right now, he has proven to be a far superior franchise-builder than Harbaugh; and if we are fortunate enough to go all the way this year, I may even call him one of the best ever.

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