Wilson vs. Kaep straight up.... who do you take?

The Essential Online Seahawks Fan Forum Community. There simply is NO substitute. RATING: PG-13

Wilson or Kaepernick?

Wilson
181
92%
Kaepernick
16
8%
 
Total votes : 197

  • Pstark3 wrote:Another thing I noticed is that Kaep needs to learn how to slide.. He's gonna end up like RG3 if he keeps exposing himself like that when he scrambles


    I would not lose any sleep if he never learns how slide. Expose away.
    User avatar
    Greenhell
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2717
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:46 am


  • RolandDeschain wrote:Wilson needed 6 weeks to start playing very well, and another few weeks to start playing at an very high level, which Kaepernick hasn't hit yet, and I'm not sure he will.


    And how do you qualify this? In your opinion what makes Wilson's play "very high level" and Kaepernick's not?
    User avatar
    Disp
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 171
    Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:43 pm


  • The fact that over the last 7 games Wilson has the highest passer rating in the NFL?
    "Your Seattle Seahawks, 2013-14 World Champions"
    Adopt A Rookie 2014-15 - Kevin Pierre-Louis
    Adopt-A-Red-Shirt 2014-15 Christine Micheal
    Previously known as megamanflx1
    User avatar
    Seahawkscrazy
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 968
    Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:59 pm
    Location: Dallas, TX


  • Disp wrote:And how do you qualify this? In your opinion what makes Wilson's play very high level compared to Kaepernick?


    5'10" rookie (5'10 & 5/8ths to be precise) with a sack rate nearly half that of Kaepernick, (Kaep has 2.8 sacks per game, Wilson has 1.8.) and a fumble rate FIVE TIMES LOWER than Kaepernick. (Wilson's .35 fumbles per game to Kaepernick's 1.8 fumbles per game.)

    If you look at Wilson's numbers since the week Kaepernick started, it's even more lopsided overall. I'll remind again, Kaepernick studied for a year-and-a-half including watching & learning while the 49ers went to the NFCCG last year. Kaepernick should be leading Wilson by a good margin in virtually all categories if they are equal quarterbacks.
    Image
    "VICTORYYYYYYY!" -Johnny Drama
    User avatar
    RolandDeschain
    *NET FCC Liaison*
     
    Posts: 24839
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
    Location: Kirkland, WA


  • Disp, if you still don't think that Wilson's the better QB as of right now, (determining a QB's long-term success takes a bare minimum of two full years of play, IMO; if not three, so we can only go by what we've seen thus far from these two) can you explain why you think Kaepernick is better, or equal? Lay it out, be specific. I'm not trolling, it's an honest question.
    Image
    "VICTORYYYYYYY!" -Johnny Drama
    User avatar
    RolandDeschain
    *NET FCC Liaison*
     
    Posts: 24839
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
    Location: Kirkland, WA


  • So Wilson is playing at a very high level compared to Kaepernick because he gets sacked a little bit less and fumbles the snap less? Their yards per attempt, completion %, passing yards, rushing yards, and virtually every other statistic are almost identical over the 5 1/2 games Kaepernick has been in and Wilson's last 6.

    But if that's the difference between high level play and not knowing if a player will ever be able to play on that same level then I'll take your word for it.
    User avatar
    Disp
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 171
    Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:43 pm


  • Turnover battle plays a huge role in wins/losses. Kaepernick's coughing up the rock significantly more. You don't think that matters, along with getting sacked a lot more? Seriously?
    Image
    "VICTORYYYYYYY!" -Johnny Drama
    User avatar
    RolandDeschain
    *NET FCC Liaison*
     
    Posts: 24839
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
    Location: Kirkland, WA


  • Kaepernick has 2 turnovers in 6 games (well I guess 3 technically with the backwards pass @ Rams) and there are far too many dynamics that go into a sack to even make it relevant in a discussion of young quarterbacks. Where are you even going with this?

    If that's really your argument then I'm done here.
    Last edited by Disp on Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    User avatar
    Disp
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 171
    Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:43 pm


  • Disp wrote:Kaepernick has 2 turnovers in 6 games and there are far too many dynamics that go into a sack to even make it relevant in a discussion of young quarterbacks. Where are you even going with this?


    Kaepernick has an amazing O-line so he should be sacked less. Plus that running game is best in the NFL, quite a reliable tool.
    User avatar
    hawksfan515
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 5220
    Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:52 pm
    Location: Battle Ground, Washington


  • Disp wrote:Kaepernick has 2 turnovers in 6 games (well I guess 3 technically with the backwards pass @ Rams) and there are far too many dynamics that go into a sack to even make it relevant in a discussion of young quarterbacks. Where are you even going with this?

    If that's really your argument then I'm done here.


    I'm counting fumbles that the 49ers recovered. Which is why I said fumbles, not turnovers. If your argument is really that fumbles and sacks don't matter, then you're right, you should be done here; because that is patently ridiculous.
    Image
    "VICTORYYYYYYY!" -Johnny Drama
    User avatar
    RolandDeschain
    *NET FCC Liaison*
     
    Posts: 24839
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
    Location: Kirkland, WA


  • RolandDeschain wrote:I'm counting fumbles that the 49ers recovered. Which is why I said fumbles, not turnovers.


    You can't be serious. This is what you wrote in just your last post haha.

    RolandDeschain wrote:Turnover battle plays a huge role in wins/losses. Kaepernick's coughing up the rock significantly more.
    User avatar
    Disp
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 171
    Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:43 pm


  • Disp wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:I'm counting fumbles that the 49ers recovered. Which is why I said fumbles, not turnovers.


    You can't be serious. This is what you wrote in just your last post haha.

    RolandDeschain wrote:Turnover battle plays a huge role in wins/losses. Kaepernick's coughing up the rock significantly more.



    Its a legit point. When the ball is fumbled, anyone can recover it. Never really know where that mofo is gonna bounce

    Example: Mark Sanchez's fumble against the Tits. It went straight to him, he dropped it, then his RB sliding by in pass pro kicked it, and bam, tits ball.
    User avatar
    hawksfan515
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 5220
    Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:52 pm
    Location: Battle Ground, Washington


  • Look at my original statement, Disp. Here, I'll quote it for you:

    RolandDeschain wrote:5'10" rookie (5'10 & 5/8ths to be precise) with a sack rate nearly half that of Kaepernick, (Kaep has 2.8 sacks per game, Wilson has 1.8.) and a fumble rate FIVE TIMES LOWER than Kaepernick. (Wilson's .35 fumbles per game to Kaepernick's 1.8 fumbles per game.)

    If you look at Wilson's numbers since the week Kaepernick started, it's even more lopsided overall. I'll remind again, Kaepernick studied for a year-and-a-half including watching & learning while the 49ers went to the NFCCG last year. Kaepernick should be leading Wilson by a good margin in virtually all categories if they are equal quarterbacks.


    Now, after you commented and I replied, I said the turnover battle plays a huge role in wins/losses. How many times you fumble doesn't play into the number of turnovers? What, you think if someone fumbles 9 times they're just as likely to turn it over once as if they fumble once in a game? Give me a break. You're the one that can't be serious. Wilson hasn't fumbled even once (fumbled, not turned over) since 11/11/12. Since Kaepernick was named the starter, he has fumbled 8 times but only turned it over once. That's a lucky percentage ratio, 8-1 fumble/turnover. Here, let's look at a few scrub QBs as a comparison; Tom Brady, (2 fumbles on the year, 0 turned over) Peyton Manning, (Also 2 fumbles on the year, but 2 turned over) and Aaron Rodgers. (4 fumbles, 3 turned over.) The average ratio for turning over fumbles for the top 3 QBs in the league is 8/5, or 62.5%. Unless your argument is that Kaepernick is a new magical QB in the league that can average 1 turnover per 8 fumbles for his career, you can't ignore number of fumbles, regardless of how lucky he has been in terms of the 49ers recovering them.

    Come on, dude. Be real.
    Image
    "VICTORYYYYYYY!" -Johnny Drama
    User avatar
    RolandDeschain
    *NET FCC Liaison*
     
    Posts: 24839
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
    Location: Kirkland, WA


  • Just gonna go round and round if your argument is Kaepernick won't get better at taking handoffs in the rain and that's the crux of your argument for one playing at a very high level and the other not. I'm done though. They're both playing very well and will be good for a long time.
    User avatar
    Disp
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 171
    Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:43 pm


  • I didn't say he wouldn't get better. I asked you to lay out what makes Kaepernick the better or equal QB as of right now. Also, Wilson has 5 fumbles on the whole season, compared to Kaepernick's 9 in less than half as many games. Go ahead and pretend that's irrelevant, though. Even take away the FOUR night before last in Foxboro, and he's at 5 on the year, same as Wilson; except in 5.1 games as compared to Wilson's 14.

    You're just being delusional, man.
    Image
    "VICTORYYYYYYY!" -Johnny Drama
    User avatar
    RolandDeschain
    *NET FCC Liaison*
     
    Posts: 24839
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
    Location: Kirkland, WA


  • Wilson. I can spell Wilson.
    49ers webzone: Win or lose, i hope you injure Sherman. Like a serious career ending injury. I don't want him to get paid.
    49ers webzone: noise should not be the overwhelming reason a team is favored. they need to spray noise-damping foam onto the ceiling of that place.
    User avatar
    BlueTalon
    * NET Curmudgeon *
    * NET Curmudgeon *
     
    Posts: 7388
    Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:06 am
    Location: Eastern Washington


  • I LOVE LAMP
    User avatar
    jkitsune
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2105
    Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:12 pm


  • Wilson doesn't need to learn anything. He's actually studying film right now, and he just learned what you wanted him to learn.
    User avatar
    MrCarey
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1678
    Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:16 pm


  • Uhh Disp...what are you looking at when you are saying they have near identical stats over their last six games? The only thing identical is their yardage and sacks, Wilson beats Kaep in almost single other category as a QB and he has come out early in the last two games.

    TDS: Wilson: 11 Kaep: 7
    Avg QB rating: Wilson: 113.5 Kaep: 100
    Turnovers: Wilson: 1 INT 3 fumbles Kaep: 2 INT 8 fumbles
    Avg comp %: Kaep 66.4 Wilson 64.1

    Kaep has been good since he's taken over but Wilson has been even better. I mentioned this in another thread, the Niners defense is still what is carrying the team. Wilson is now carrying the Seahawks.

    Also the Seahawks have played the #20, #8, #17, #5, #11, and #24 ranked defenses. While the Niners have played #9 twice, #5, #32, #17, and #27 ranked defenses. Take the average ranking of the defenses faced and the Seahawks have played the 14.1 ranked defense while the Niners have played the 16.5 ranked defense.

    So looking at strictly from a performance point of view, Wilson is superior to Kaep. He has better stats, he has carried the team, and he has played on average better defenses. Please do explain how Kaep is still better than Wilson.
    User avatar
    amill87
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1331
    Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:35 pm


  • I forgot which team has put up 50 points a game 3 games in a row?

    Ooops, I think I just gave away the future :P
    SUPER BOWL 48 CHAMPIONS!!!!!!!!

    RIP ROAD WOES 12/2/2012
    User avatar
    SonicHawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 7405
    Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:56 pm



  • 515 has a brilliant young mind- I think some of you missed his true intentions with this thread.

    We now know there are at least five 49ers trolls/lurkers on .net right now. Really only 5? It seems like more.

    Good work 515. Now I can feel assured that .net is not being over trolled by 49ers fans this week.

    And on the off chance this poll was serious, this is like asking who's better between Josh Freeman and Aaron Rodgers. Kaepernick is my 'boy, but I'm pretty sure Harbaugh could turn Mark Sanchez into a 100 passer rating QB at this point.
    User avatar
    kearly
    * Mr Random Thought *
     
    Posts: 10724
    Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:44 am


  • Had to go with CK here. He's taller, smarter (37 vs. 28 on the wonderlic). Both are fast, both have great arms. RW has a better touch on his passes IMO. One thing I noticed with CK (and RW, for that matter) right off the bat is, unlike Alex Smith, he can throw his receivers open.

    I suspect CK's 'fumbling the snap' problem was more due to weather in NE and was corrected in the second half, so I'd be skeptical of statistical analysis that points to the number of fumbles.

    Right now RW runs the offense better than CK does, and that could make all the difference in the upcoming game.

    CK has a slight edge in quality of receiving targets, both teams have decent WR's, but the 49ers have Vernon Davis (see how I didn't go with initials there?).

    Hopefully this argument will go back and forth for years to come.
    49fansince70
    NET Practice Squad
     
    Posts: 55
    Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:57 pm


  • I don't think Kaepernick has the escapability that DangeRuss has.

    All things being equal, Kap can't seem to elude the oustretched arms of a D-lineman like my boy Russ can.
    "God bless America, and God bless the Seattle Seahawks" - Cortez Kennedy
    User avatar
    HoustonHawk82
    * NET Mechanic *
     
    Posts: 6015
    Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:51 am
    Location: Beneath, Between & Behind


  • 49fansince70 wrote:Had to go with CK here. He's taller, smarter (37 vs. 28 on the wonderlic). Both are fast, both have great arms. RW has a better touch on his passes IMO. One thing I noticed with CK (and RW, for that matter) right off the bat is, unlike Alex Smith, he can throw his receivers open.

    I suspect CK's 'fumbling the snap' problem was more due to weather in NE and was corrected in the second half, so I'd be skeptical of statistical analysis that points to the number of fumbles.

    Right now RW runs the offense better than CK does, and that could make all the difference in the upcoming game.

    CK has a slight edge in quality of receiving targets, both teams have decent WR's, but the 49ers have Vernon Davis (see how I didn't go with initials there?).

    Hopefully this argument will go back and forth for years to come.

    I don't put much stock in the Wonderlic unless a guy has a really terrible score. Marino scored in the teens and that didn't exactly hurt him.

    Russell has shown he's more than capable of football smarts. He learned Wisconsin's offense in a matter of weeks because he's a ridiculously hard worker.
    Help bring peace to the South LA / Puget Sound communities. Are you in?
    http://www.abetterla.org | http://www.abetterseattle.com
    User avatar
    sc85sis
    *SILVER SUPPORTER*
    *SILVER SUPPORTER*
     
    Posts: 4712
    Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:40 am
    Location: Southern CA


  • WHOA, WHOA, WHOA. Are you trying to tell me that 9er fans think Kap is better, and Hawks fans think Wilson is better?
    Image
    User avatar
    AbsolutNET
    * NET X's & O's Guru *
     
    Posts: 8694
    Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:24 am
    Location: PNW


  • AbsolutNET wrote:WHOA, WHOA, WHOA. Are you trying to tell me that 9er fans think Kap is better, and Hawks fans think Wilson is better?


    Some Seahawks "fans" seem to think Kaepernick is better. WHIP OUT THE BAN STICK! :lol:
    Image
    "VICTORYYYYYYY!" -Johnny Drama
    User avatar
    RolandDeschain
    *NET FCC Liaison*
     
    Posts: 24839
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
    Location: Kirkland, WA


  • Let's see...Wilson :179417:

    or

    Kap :evil:

    Wilson :179417:

    or

    Kap :evil:
    User avatar
    400WattHPSHawk
    *SILVER SUPPORTER*
    *SILVER SUPPORTER*
     
    Posts: 1811
    Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:09 pm
    Location: Central Washington


  • Wilson is so much better it isn't even close.
    Image
    User avatar
    Largent80
    NET Ring Of Honor
     
    Posts: 22750
    Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:38 pm
    Location: NFL WORLD CHAMPIONS 2013-2014


  • Largent80 wrote:Wilson is so much better it isn't even close.


    Please explain why it "isn't even close".

    I'm a Niner fan so it's obvious which way I'm leaning, but lets try to be real here for a sec. I want to hear exactly WHY Wilson is better. I'm attempting to take the homer cap off here so lets just do a little comparison.

    Stats?

    Wilson:
    62.9 Comp %, 7.64 per att, 2697 yards, 21 TDs, 9 INTs, 95.5 QB Rating, 402 yards, 5.2 average, 3 TDs

    Kaep:
    65.6 Comp %, 8.37 per att, 1289 yards, 7 TDs, 2 INTs, 101.3 Rating, 379 yards rushing, 7.2 average, 5 TDs

    Wilson wins on bigger passing yards and TDs, but not in yards per att, or QB rating. Then again, that's not entirely fair seeing as Kaep has only started 5 games.



    Lets just look at the first 5 games Kaep has started compared to Wilsons first 5 starts....

    Wilson:
    63.2 Comp %, 6.52 per att, 815 yards, 5 TDs, 6 INTs, 75.25 Rating, 92 rushing yards, 3.4 average, 0 TDs

    Kaep:
    66.4 Comp %, 8.26 per att, 1083 yards, 7 TDs, 2 INTs, 104.39 QB Rating, 202 rushing yards, 6.31 average, 2 TDs


    Hrmm. I don't see Wilson as so good that it "isn't even close". In fact, it's pretty easy to use the exact opposite argument. I can hear some of you already saying stuff like "Kaep isn't a rookie", or "we are comparing them as the players they are NOW" or a host of other stuff....but lets be fair. Kaep may not be a rookie, but he didn't play at all last year and only in run packages early on this year. Still, lets add Wilsons LAST 5 games.

    64.7 Comp %, 8.89 per att, 1053 yards, 8 TDs, 1 INT, 111.95 Rating, 247 yards, 7.48 average, 3 TDs.

    Wow. Nice. Now we have a contest. ;-) I'm not sure if comparing Kaeps FIRST 5 starts to Wilsons LAST 5 starts is really afair comparison, but thats what I had to do to even make this a contest.

    OK...so lets look at the competition then....

    Niners:
    Bears on Monday Night (Yes, they had Jason Campbell at QB, but he doesn't play defense. That game was billed as a battle of the defenses and Kaep DESTROYED the Bears early and often).
    Saints in NO: Say what you want about the Saints D, but that is a HARD place to play. He was unrattled and played very well)
    Rams in St. Louis (yup...his worst game. Played like a young QB. Still...the Rams are good on D as I'm sure you Seattle fans know)
    Miami (Played well against a good D while under constant pressure. His 50 yard TD run sealed the game)
    NE IN NE (most impressive game so far, Say what you want about the 12th man in Seattle, but Foxborough in December is the hardest place to win in the NFL)

    Seahawks:
    Jets (yeah...not good. Niners beat them 34-0)
    Miami (tough D as I said before...but Seahawks lost)
    Chicago (Good Win. Impressive...especially with Cutler back and in Chicago)
    Arizona and Buffalo (um...yeah. Put up lots of points, but Niners beat those same 2 teams 69-6 back when those teams actually had something to play for. Hell the Niners became the first team in NFL history to both pass AND rush for 300 against the Bills)


    Finally...athletic ability. This one is tough to judge. Wilson is 5'11", 206, very mobile, and has a good arm. Kaep is 6'4 or 6'5", 230+, and is also very mobile....and has a CANNON of an arm.


    So, in conclusion....the argument can be made that either guy is "better". I, of course would take Kaep, but suggesting it "isn't even close" is simply lunacy.
    Marvin49
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2997
    Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:34 pm


  • Both are damn good

    I don't see what the debate is about
    User avatar
    Shaz
    *BRONZE SUPPORTER*
    *BRONZE SUPPORTER*
     
    Posts: 374
    Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:40 am
    Location: Tacoma, WA


  • Marvin, while I agree that Largent's "it isn't even close" statement is over the top, you can't compare their first 5 starts. Kaepernick studied and learned for a year-and-a-half, plus playoff experience through the NFCCG. Wilson's first 5 starts were right off the bat as a rookie. That is NOT comparable, no matter how much you may want it to be.

    Kaepernick is taking twice as many sacks and is fumbling the football FIVE TIMES MORE than Wilson. Those are the two really telling ones. Even if you completely remove his 4 fumbles @ Foxboro, he's fumbling quite a bit more per game than Wilson, and I'm including every game for Wilson in that average.

    If Kaepernick keeps fumbling and taking sacks (the latter one points to better athleticism/pocket presence by Wilson, IMO) the way he has been, he's never going to be a great QB.
    Image
    "VICTORYYYYYYY!" -Johnny Drama
    User avatar
    RolandDeschain
    *NET FCC Liaison*
     
    Posts: 24839
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
    Location: Kirkland, WA


  • Marvin,

    Wilson started out slow because the playbook was held back for him as a rookie. How about we just look at the last 6 games between the two?

    TDS: Wilson: 11 Kaep: 7
    Avg QB rating: Wilson: 113.5 Kaep: 100
    Turnovers: Wilson: 1 INT 3 fumbles Kaep: 2 INT 8 fumbles
    Avg comp %: Kaep 66.4 Wilson 64.1

    Kaep has been good since he's taken over but Wilson has been even better. I mentioned this in another thread, the Niners defense is still what is carrying the team. Wilson is now carrying the Seahawks.

    Also the Seahawks have played the #20, #8, #17, #5, #11, and #24 ranked defenses. While the Niners have played #9 twice, #5, #32, #17, and #27 ranked defenses. Take the average ranking of the defenses faced and the Seahawks have played the 14.1 ranked defense while the Niners have played the 16.5 ranked defense.

    Also as Sando has pointed out, Wilson leads the NFL in QBR since week 6 (when we started opening the playbook for him) and he is second to only Aaron Rodgers in qb rating in the past 10 weeks
    User avatar
    amill87
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1331
    Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:35 pm


  • amill87 wrote:Marvin,

    Wilson started out slow because the playbook was held back for him as a rookie. How about we just look at the last 6 games between the two?

    TDS: Wilson: 11 Kaep: 7
    Avg QB rating: Wilson: 113.5 Kaep: 100
    Turnovers: Wilson: 1 INT 3 fumbles Kaep: 2 INT 8 fumbles
    Avg comp %: Kaep 66.4 Wilson 64.1

    Kaep has been good since he's taken over but Wilson has been even better. I mentioned this in another thread, the Niners defense is still what is carrying the team. Wilson is now carrying the Seahawks.

    Also the Seahawks have played the #20, #8, #17, #5, #11, and #24 ranked defenses. While the Niners have played #9 twice, #5, #32, #17, and #27 ranked defenses. Take the average ranking of the defenses faced and the Seahawks have played the 14.1 ranked defense while the Niners have played the 16.5 ranked defense.

    Also as Sando has pointed out, Wilson leads the NFL in QBR since week 6 (when we started opening the playbook for him) and he is second to only Aaron Rodgers in qb rating in the past 10 weeks



    Well...

    1) Kaep hasn't started 6 games...he has started 5. He came in for an injured Alex Smith in that first Rams game. I also MADE that comparison in my post...so not sure why you are rehashing the argument unless its just to try to scew the number to throw in a 3TD game for Wilson


    2) My entire argument isn't that "Kaep is better". I'm saying its not a case that it "isn't even close" You can say that Kaep had a full year, but you can also say that Wilson came in MUCH more pro ready than Kaep did. Kaep was RAW when he was drafted.
    Marvin49
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2997
    Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:34 pm


  • RolandDeschain wrote:Marvin, while I agree that Largent's "it isn't even close" statement is over the top, you can't compare their first 5 starts. Kaepernick studied and learned for a year-and-a-half, plus playoff experience through the NFCCG. Wilson's first 5 starts were right off the bat as a rookie. That is NOT comparable, no matter how much you may want it to be.

    Kaepernick is taking twice as many sacks and is fumbling the football FIVE TIMES MORE than Wilson. Those are the two really telling ones. Even if you completely remove his 4 fumbles @ Foxboro, he's fumbling quite a bit more per game than Wilson, and I'm including every game for Wilson in that average.

    If Kaepernick keeps fumbling and taking sacks (the latter one points to better athleticism/pocket presence by Wilson, IMO) the way he has been, he's never going to be a great QB.


    Wilson played at a big division school against top competition. Kaep played at Nevada. Kaep was raw as Sushi coming in. Yes, he had a year to sit and it worked wonders, but lets not make it out like he is a seasoned vet. These are his first 5 NFL starts. You guys are making it out like he has topped out and won't improve. He has HUGE potential to get even better. Is Wilson the only one who shows promise?

    As for the fumbles, of course that can't continue. It WILL improve. Thats part of him being as raw as he is. He never took a snap in college. Its something he will learn and improve on. I'm sure Wilson made a few mistakes in those first few games, did he not?
    Marvin49
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2997
    Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:34 pm


  • Marvin49 wrote:

    Well...

    1) Kaep hasn't started 6 games...he has started 5. He came in for an injured Alex Smith in that first Rams game. I also MADE that comparison in my post...so not sure why you are rehashing the argument unless its just to try to scew the number to throw in a 3TD game for Wilson


    2) My entire argument isn't that "Kaep is better". I'm saying its not a case that it "isn't even close" You can say that Kaep had a full year, but you can also say that Wilson came in MUCH more pro ready than Kaep did. Kaep was RAW when he was drafted.


    I would counter that with Wilson has left the past two games early. Wilson has 143 attempts over that span and Kaep has 145. So they have nearly the same attempts but Wilson is doing more.
    User avatar
    amill87
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1331
    Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:35 pm


  • amill87 wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:

    Well...

    1) Kaep hasn't started 6 games...he has started 5. He came in for an injured Alex Smith in that first Rams game. I also MADE that comparison in my post...so not sure why you are rehashing the argument unless its just to try to scew the number to throw in a 3TD game for Wilson


    2) My entire argument isn't that "Kaep is better". I'm saying its not a case that it "isn't even close" You can say that Kaep had a full year, but you can also say that Wilson came in MUCH more pro ready than Kaep did. Kaep was RAW when he was drafted.


    I would counter that with Wilson has left the past two games early. Wilson has 143 attempts over that span and Kaep has 145. So they have nearly the same attempts but Wilson is doing more.


    LOL, is that how it works now?

    Sigh.

    Anything to make the number say what you want, right? I included the last 5 games for Wilson in my initial post (which are better than Kaep), but that just wasn't enough? LOL. Say what you want about the respective defenses, but I'd like to see Wilson go into Foxborough in December and knock off the Pats with 4 TD passes. Kaep is effectively a rookie. He is learning on the job. Hell, as you have seen he still has trouble with the center exchange.

    I have alot of respect for Russell Wilson, but you guys are making it out like he's the next Montana and Kaep is just a flash in the pan. Its pretty comical. LOL.
    Marvin49
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2997
    Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:34 pm


  • Marvin I don't think that's the general thought of Seahawks fans at all

    Yeah you have a few dumbasses that are obviously bias homers but overall we all believe Kaep is a very good QB and will continue to be so
    User avatar
    Shaz
    *BRONZE SUPPORTER*
    *BRONZE SUPPORTER*
     
    Posts: 374
    Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:40 am
    Location: Tacoma, WA


  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    AbsolutNET wrote:WHOA, WHOA, WHOA. Are you trying to tell me that 9er fans think Kap is better, and Hawks fans think Wilson is better?


    Some Seahawks "fans" seem to think Kaepernick is better. WHIP OUT THE BAN STICK! :lol:

    :13:
    P-Rich fo life
    User avatar
    ImTheScientist
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2491
    Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:14 am


  • Marvin49 wrote:
    amill87 wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:

    Well...

    1) Kaep hasn't started 6 games...he has started 5. He came in for an injured Alex Smith in that first Rams game. I also MADE that comparison in my post...so not sure why you are rehashing the argument unless its just to try to scew the number to throw in a 3TD game for Wilson


    2) My entire argument isn't that "Kaep is better". I'm saying its not a case that it "isn't even close" You can say that Kaep had a full year, but you can also say that Wilson came in MUCH more pro ready than Kaep did. Kaep was RAW when he was drafted.


    I would counter that with Wilson has left the past two games early. Wilson has 143 attempts over that span and Kaep has 145. So they have nearly the same attempts but Wilson is doing more.


    LOL, is that how it works now?

    Sigh.

    Anything to make the number say what you want, right? I uncluded the last 5 games for Wilson in my initial post (which are better than Kaep), but that just wasn't enough? LOL. Say what you want about the respective defenses, but I'd like to see Wilson go into Foxborough in December and knock off the Pats with 4 TD passes.

    I have alot of respect for Russell Wilson, but you guys are making it out like he's the next Montana and kaep is just a flash in the pan. Its pretty comical. LOL.


    And the Niner fans are making Kaep out to be the next Montana after he's only played 6 games. It goes both ways.

    You were skewing your facts by comparing their first 5 games when you know Wilson was a rookie with a limited playbook coming off an offseason where he split reps. Kaep had much more time to get a feel with the playbook and Kaep has a superior offensive coach.

    Let's just throw out those numbers than. Wilson still leads the NFL in QBR since week 6 and second highest QB rating the past 10 weeks. He's been playing at some of the highest level of all the QBs in the league for quite awhile now.

    I think Kaep is playing at a high level right now. The question is who would I want straight up and if I'm basing that decision off of right now, I gotta go with Wilson due to performing better. It's not a knock on Kaep.
    User avatar
    amill87
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1331
    Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:35 pm


  • Marvin49 wrote:
    amill87 wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:

    Well...

    1) Kaep hasn't started 6 games...he has started 5. He came in for an injured Alex Smith in that first Rams game. I also MADE that comparison in my post...so not sure why you are rehashing the argument unless its just to try to scew the number to throw in a 3TD game for Wilson


    2) My entire argument isn't that "Kaep is better". I'm saying its not a case that it "isn't even close" You can say that Kaep had a full year, but you can also say that Wilson came in MUCH more pro ready than Kaep did. Kaep was RAW when he was drafted.


    I would counter that with Wilson has left the past two games early. Wilson has 143 attempts over that span and Kaep has 145. So they have nearly the same attempts but Wilson is doing more.


    LOL, is that how it works now?

    Sigh.

    Anything to make the number say what you want, right? I uncluded the last 5 games for Wilson in my initial post (which are better than Kaep), but that just wasn't enough? LOL. Say what you want about the respective defenses, but I'd like to see Wilson go into Foxborough in December and knock off the Pats with 4 TD passes.

    I have alot of respect for Russell Wilson, but you guys are making it out like he's the next Montana and kaep is just a flash in the pan. Its pretty comical. LOL.


    And the Niner fans are making Kaep out to be the next Montana after he's only played 6 games. It goes both ways.

    You were skewing your facts by comparing their first 5 games when you know Wilson was a rookie with a limited playbook coming off an offseason where he split reps. Kaep had much more time to get a feel with the playbook and Kaep has a superior offensive coach.

    Let's just throw out those numbers than. Wilson still leads the NFL in QBR since week 6 and second highest QB rating the past 10 weeks. He's been playing at some of the highest level of all the QBs in the league for quite awhile now.

    I think Kaep is playing at a high level right now. The question is who would I want straight up and if I'm basing that decision off of right now, I gotta go with Wilson due to performing better. It's not a knock on Kaep.[/quote]


    Have you even read the whole of my first post? In the SAME POST I made the comparison with Wilsons LAST 5. I didn't pull the #5 out of thin air...that is the number of starts that Kaep has. It's just that simple.

    I'm not making Kaep out to be Montana...I'm saying that it's an argument over whos better, Wilson or Kaep.

    I'm not sure exactly which QBR you are talking about. If it's the ESPN one I'm linking below, then Colin is second only to Peyton Manning in total QBR.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

    If you mean regular QB rating, then the number are better for Wilson, but not SOOO much better that this isn't even a comparison. Kaep has only started 5 games in his entire career and he's had a rating higher than 100 3 times. You guys want to keep setting aside Colins numbers based on his "experince" of sitting on the bench for 1.5 years. I'm willing to give Wilson credit for the fact that he's improved dramatically, but are you unwilling to see that kaep has done this in 5 freaking starts and might have a SIMILAR trajectory upwards?
    Marvin49
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2997
    Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:34 pm


  • Shaz wrote:Marvin I don't think that's the general thought of Seahawks fans at all

    Yeah you have a few dumbasses that are obviously bias homers but overall we all believe Kaep is a very good QB and will continue to be so


    I understand that. ;-) Thanks.

    It's always the extremes you argue with...just like in politics. Its the same on our boards as well. When I say "you guys", I'm aware I'm most often talking with the less clear-sighted people on the boards. ;-)
    Marvin49
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2997
    Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:34 pm


  • Marvin49 wrote:
    amill87 wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:

    Well...

    1) Kaep hasn't started 6 games...he has started 5. He came in for an injured Alex Smith in that first Rams game. I also MADE that comparison in my post...so not sure why you are rehashing the argument unless its just to try to scew the number to throw in a 3TD game for Wilson


    2) My entire argument isn't that "Kaep is better". I'm saying its not a case that it "isn't even close" You can say that Kaep had a full year, but you can also say that Wilson came in MUCH more pro ready than Kaep did. Kaep was RAW when he was drafted.


    I would counter that with Wilson has left the past two games early. Wilson has 143 attempts over that span and Kaep has 145. So they have nearly the same attempts but Wilson is doing more.


    LOL, is that how it works now?

    Sigh.

    Anything to make the number say what you want, right? I uncluded the last 5 games for Wilson in my initial post (which are better than Kaep), but that just wasn't enough? LOL. Say what you want about the respective defenses, but I'd like to see Wilson go into Foxborough in December and knock off the Pats with 4 TD passes.

    I have alot of respect for Russell Wilson, but you guys are making it out like he's the next Montana and kaep is just a flash in the pan. Its pretty comical. LOL.


    And the Niner fans are making Kaep out to be the next Montana after he's only played 6 games. It goes both ways.

    You were skewing your facts by comparing their first 5 games when you know Wilson was a rookie with a limited playbook coming off an offseason where he split reps. Kaep had much more time to get a feel with the playbook and Kaep has a superior offensive coach.

    Let's just throw out those numbers than. Wilson still leads the NFL in QBR since week 6 and second highest QB rating the past 10 weeks. He's been playing at some of the highest level of all the QBs in the league for quite awhile now.

    I think Kaep is playing at a high level right now. The question is who would I want straight up and if I'm basing that decision off of right now, I gotta go with Wilson due to performing better. It's not a knock on Kaep.[/quote]

    Oh...and BTW, Kaep didn't even get to split his reps...HE WASN'T THE STARTER.
    Marvin49
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2997
    Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:34 pm


  • Marvin49 wrote:I'm not sure exactly which QBR you are talking about. If it's the ESPN one I'm linking below, then Colin is second only to Peyton Manning in total QBR.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

    If you mean regular QB rating, then the number are better for Wilson, but not SOOO much better that this isn't even a comparison. Kaep has only started 5 games in his entire career and he's had a rating higher than 100 3 times. You guys want to keep setting aside Colins numbers based on his "experince" of sitting on the bench for 1.5 years. I'm willing to give Wilson credit for the fact that he's improved dramatically, but are you unwilling to see that kaep has done this in 5 freaking starts and might have a SIMILAR trajectory upwards?


    Like I said, QBR since week 6. Sando has stated it multiple times on his blog.

    I think you're missing the point. Both have potential to be really good but potential is potential for a reason. It is not yet achieved. If we are basing a decision purely off what is directly in front of us right now, Wilson is barely ahead.

    I like to compare it a little bit to pitchers in baseball. When a young pitcher comes on, you don't really know how good he is until he plays for awhile. He might be as good as he looks but than he might just be catching everyone off guard and once everyone knows what he is about, he suddenly isn't as good. This holds true for both Wilson and Kaep.
    User avatar
    amill87
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1331
    Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:35 pm


  • I think with both fanbases there is such a passion due to how we're playing that it's created this "We rule the world" mentality which of course is ok

    I think both teams have cemented themselves as the 2 most Physical and baddest teams in the NFL
    User avatar
    Shaz
    *BRONZE SUPPORTER*
    *BRONZE SUPPORTER*
     
    Posts: 374
    Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:40 am
    Location: Tacoma, WA


  • Shaz wrote:I think with both fanbases there is such a passion due to how we're playing that it's created this "We rule the world" mentality which of course is ok

    I think both teams have cemented themselves as the 2 most Physical and baddest teams in the NFL


    That much we can agree on. ;-) I was aguing with a Pats fan last week. All he was talking about was how the SEC linebackers were the most physical in the NFL and "better" than the 49ers LBs. :shock:

    Um...wha!?!

    LOL!

    Yeah...and Danny Woodhead is more physical than Marshawn Lynch, right? Lunatics in every forum.
    Marvin49
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2997
    Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:34 pm


  • amill87 wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:I'm not sure exactly which QBR you are talking about. If it's the ESPN one I'm linking below, then Colin is second only to Peyton Manning in total QBR.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

    If you mean regular QB rating, then the number are better for Wilson, but not SOOO much better that this isn't even a comparison. Kaep has only started 5 games in his entire career and he's had a rating higher than 100 3 times. You guys want to keep setting aside Colins numbers based on his "experince" of sitting on the bench for 1.5 years. I'm willing to give Wilson credit for the fact that he's improved dramatically, but are you unwilling to see that kaep has done this in 5 freaking starts and might have a SIMILAR trajectory upwards?


    Like I said, QBR since week 6. Sando has stated it multiple times on his blog.

    I think you're missing the point. Both have potential to be really good but potential is potential for a reason. It is not yet achieved. If we are basing a decision purely off what is directly in front of us right now, Wilson is barely ahead.

    I like to compare it a little bit to pitchers in baseball. When a young pitcher comes on, you don't really know how good he is until he plays for awhile. He might be as good as he looks but than he might just be catching everyone off guard and once everyone knows what he is about, he suddenly isn't as good. This holds true for both Wilson and Kaep.


    Well, I don't have the numbers in front of me to compute that so I'll trust you on that one. To be honest tho, even though Colin being second on that list looks pretty impressive, I'm not really a fan of QBR.


    If all you are saying is that right now Wilson is slightly ahead of Colin then we have nothing to argue about. Colin has only started 5 games, so I'd anticipate him being much better 6 starts from now than he is now...altho that would be next year...if I'm doing the math right hopefully the season opener of next year. :D
    Marvin49
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2997
    Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:34 pm


  • Marvin49 wrote:

    Finally...athletic ability. This one is tough to judge. Wilson is 5'11", 206, very mobile, and has a good arm. Kaep is 6'4 or 6'5", 230+, and is also very mobile....and has a CANNON of an arm.


    So, in conclusion....the argument can be made that either guy is "better". I, of course would take Kaep, but suggesting it "isn't even close" is simply lunacy.


    Good arm? Lets be clear here, Russ has a CANNON of arm as with sweet touch on his passes. Kap, I've seen him fling it but don't know if he's got the touch like Russ.
    User avatar
    Greenhell
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2717
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:46 am


  • QBR is a joke. Every week there's some huge discrepancy on there; either a QB who should be much higher, or one that should be much lower. Until/unless they release the math on how they calculate it in its entirety, it's not to be trusted.

    It surprises me that so many 49ers fans claim Kaepernick's sack & fumble numbers don't matter...
    Image
    "VICTORYYYYYYY!" -Johnny Drama
    User avatar
    RolandDeschain
    *NET FCC Liaison*
     
    Posts: 24839
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
    Location: Kirkland, WA


  • Both are good quarterbacks and young.. both fanbases should be happy they have an excellent future at that position... I read something twitter today about how no QB drafted by the Chiefs has won an NFL game since 1987. WOW
    _____________________

    Where can I find Seahawks98.com???
    User avatar
    Barthawk
    *Bacon Eating Crusader*
    *Bacon Eating Crusader*
     
    Posts: 2552
    Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:17 am
    Location: San Antonio, TX by way of Kalispell, MT


Next


It is currently Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:14 am

Please REGISTER to become a member

Return to [ THE OFFICIAL NET NATION FAN FORUM ]




Information