Hawks D isn't as good as people want to think

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  • They absolutely stunk up the joint today in the second half. Embarrassing performance. This along with Detroit makes 2 road games where the D rolled over and blew the game, not to mention multiple 2nd half leads. They have no problem playing well early in a game, when its low scoring. But when it's offense starts scoring points, and the pressure mounts later in the game, they crumble into a turnstile.

    I don't care if the offense wasnt good either. And it wasnt. Absolutely pathetic play calling and run blocking (Bevell's run run pass, automatic 3rd down play calling returned). Nobody acts like this team is built to win based off its offense. The defense is the unit that gets all the accolades and talks all the big talk. They were giving 2 leads in the 2nd half, and blew both. Rolled over like chumps. PATHETIC.

    You take this defense away from CLink, the 12th man, the added boost and extra step they get playing there, and they are 100% pedestrian. And as we saw today and in Detroit, have the ability to play like total crap. Yes, I'm being way harder on them than I am the offense. But thats because I expect more from them. If I give you 2 leads in the 2nd half, I expect you to play better than giving up play after big play. Embarrassing.

    There's going to be a lot of talk this week about the Hawks being pretenders. Well maybe they are. But currently the biggest pretender on this team is the unit that talks the big talk and says its one of the best in the league, but plays like chumps when the going gets tough away from their comfy home.
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  • I agree. There's nobody that can convince me otherwise. Tired of reading about how good this defense is...it's just NOT.

    Good defenses don't allow nearly 500 yards to the damn Dolphins, P E R I O D. Our defense is good at home, easily beaten on the road.

    The stat geeks will come firing with some crazy excuse about yards, DVOA, or whatever. Only one stat counts - WINS. We had a chance to win the game -- just like Detroit -- and we couldn't stop a high school team.

    Stop with the over-hype about our defense. It ain't all that.
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  • FlyingGreg wrote:I agree. There's nobody that can convince me otherwise. Tired of reading about how good this defense is...it's just NOT.

    Good defenses don't allow nearly 500 yards to the damn Dolphins, P E R I O D. Our defense is good at home, easily beaten on the road.

    The stat geeks will come firing with some crazy excuse about yards, DVOA, or whatever. Only one stat counts - WINS. We had a chance to win the game -- just like Detroit -- and we couldn't stop a high school team.

    Stop with the over-hype about our defense. It ain't all that.


    If it makes you feel better, I'm sure the defensive DVOA will drop after this game. As will the rankings based on yards and points.

    You may resume your tirade against the "stat geeks." :mrgreen:
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  • All those fancy words simply to say that the Hawks are "vanilla on the Road"
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  • 435 yards to Miami. I don't ever want to hear people say this is one of the best defenses in the league. And if a single person uses "elite" in the same sentence as the Hawks defense, they need to be checked into a looney bin.
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  • FlyingGreg wrote:I agree. There's nobody that can convince me otherwise. Tired of reading about how good this defense is...it's just NOT.

    Good defenses don't allow nearly 500 yards to the damn Dolphins, P E R I O D. Our defense is good at home, easily beaten on the road.

    The stat geeks will come firing with some crazy excuse about yards, DVOA, or whatever. Only one stat counts - WINS. We had a chance to win the game -- just like Detroit -- and we couldn't stop a high school team.

    Stop with the over-hype about our defense. It ain't all that.

    I've always felt the DVOA was kind of a useless geekery anyway.
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  • Jazzhawk wrote:
    FlyingGreg wrote:I agree. There's nobody that can convince me otherwise. Tired of reading about how good this defense is...it's just NOT.

    Good defenses don't allow nearly 500 yards to the damn Dolphins, P E R I O D. Our defense is good at home, easily beaten on the road.

    The stat geeks will come firing with some crazy excuse about yards, DVOA, or whatever. Only one stat counts - WINS. We had a chance to win the game -- just like Detroit -- and we couldn't stop a high school team.

    Stop with the over-hype about our defense. It ain't all that.

    I've always felt the DVOA was kind of a useless geekery anyway.


    Same here. Stops on 3rd down, sacks on the road, key turnovers -- all more important and definitive. And all things we suck at.
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  • FlyingGreg wrote:
    Jazzhawk wrote:
    FlyingGreg wrote:I agree. There's nobody that can convince me otherwise. Tired of reading about how good this defense is...it's just NOT.

    Good defenses don't allow nearly 500 yards to the damn Dolphins, P E R I O D. Our defense is good at home, easily beaten on the road.

    The stat geeks will come firing with some crazy excuse about yards, DVOA, or whatever. Only one stat counts - WINS. We had a chance to win the game -- just like Detroit -- and we couldn't stop a high school team.

    Stop with the over-hype about our defense. It ain't all that.

    I've always felt the DVOA was kind of a useless geekery anyway.


    Same here. Stops on 3rd down, sacks on the road, key turnovers -- all more important and definitive. And all things we suck at.


    EXACTLY. This is why sabremetrics for football is a fools errand. It works for baseball, because its a simpler game with mostly one on one interactions. But football is much more complex, has room for way too much false positives, and ultimately comes down to just a couple stats. 3rd down % and pts given up. Thats all I care about when it comes to judging a defense. And right now, ours sucks in both regards. Especially on the road.
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  • on paper its a really great defense though
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  • One comment from Brian Billick concerns me. He commented that our Defense is built to be fast... on turf. He just made an observation that playing on grass seems to neutralize that advantage. No matter what you think of Billick, anyone think there's enough truth to this to be a valid point? If he's got a point... boy, it's beyond just simply road woes. I don't know how they would address this in the future to be more balanced without re-thinking their philosophy. If we're exposed... that is a serious problem. To me, this loss was just like the others... we were battling for a victory. So, while I'm disappointed... I know I'll eventually get over it and be as hopeful as ever against the Bears next week (on grass field.) I saw the apparent collapse of the Defense. (Was LeRoy's ankle injury anything to do with the Dolphins moving the ball so easily in the 4th? We're they gassed due to the humidity of Florida?) The Dolphins are an improving team and Tannehill is no slouch. That Miami D is pretty good. Our offensive line hasn't had consistency. I really think, while we are in need of another electric offensive weapon (please, Tavon Austin)... I think the O-Line is still not settled. So... to pin it all on our Defense - even with that monumental collapse today - isn't the only problem. I do agree with the original post that Seattle's D is not elite. But, they play like an elite Defense at times. Special teams almost bailed out this team today. But, if the offense wouldn't have stalled on that last drive (even if they wouldn't have gone BACKWARDS)... SEA could have had a long FG try and maybe we're all just grateful for an ugly road win instead. Either way... I am a bit concerned about Billicks comment. I can't completely disagree. Thoughts?
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  • Somebody added water to the grass after that comment. Hummm....
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  • The secondary woes are caused by a few things:

    Chancellor is regressing in coverage this year. He's pressing since he knows he's not doing as well as last year, but he's out of position a lot.

    Our LBers aren't great in coverage. Hill and Wright are too slow to match up on TE's. You notice teams are starting to split them wide on us, a lot. We are still getting abused by backs out of the backfield, which is also our OLBers. Wagner still hasn't figured out his drops; sometimes he seems way too deep, unless it's by design, but then we don't cover well underneath.

    The word is out on our run defense. People are watching tape, and seeing something I'm not (other than a few missed gap assignments by Wagner), but offenses are gashing us right up the middle. They run right at Wagner with great success.
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  • I will give a D one or two bad games a season if they are supposedly elite.

    The Seahawks convinced me today that they are not that. They have been pushed around in too many games by inferior teams.
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  • Hawks46 wrote:The secondary woes are caused by a few things:

    Chancellor is regressing in coverage this year. He's pressing since he knows he's not doing as well as last year, but he's out of position a lot.

    Our LBers aren't great in coverage. Hill and Wright are too slow to match up on TE's. You notice teams are starting to split them wide on us, a lot. We are still getting abused by backs out of the backfield, which is also our OLBers. Wagner still hasn't figured out his drops; sometimes he seems way too deep, unless it's by design, but then we don't cover well underneath.

    The word is out on our run defense. People are watching tape, and seeing something I'm not (other than a few missed gap assignments by Wagner), but offenses are gashing us right up the middle. They run right at Wagner with great success.

    ggod offenses exploit weaknesses on the other teams D, maybe we should try that sometime?
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  • I think they really have found a chink in the armor up front that got exposed a few games ago and we can't seem to adapt. I heard an announcer last game talking about us getting gashed by the trap play and showed some replays of it happening. I think they are bringing the gaurd(s) into the side of Mebane and taking him out of the play, possibly w/ a double team. That leaves the FB on Wags and bam we are in trouble. Now, whats the answer to stopping it?

    Ramblings. I think we definately are still needing serious 3 tech help via draft or FA. I am also starting to wonder about this PC scheme that is so special. I think it worked at first w/ shemey playcalling but OC's have figured it out. Seems to me we are really easy reads having to rotate tackles and DE's for passing and running plays. While I love big Red to death, I am afraid his lack of pass rush is crippling us to predictability. Do we need to go more conventional 3-4 or 4-3 w/ everydown DE's at the NFL level. IDK. I do agree we have big issue in coverage at the LBR lvl....again I would hope we address that via draft.

    Here is hoping they find the answers sooner rather than later.
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  • wow, one game? today was bad, well not as bad as you're trying to make it, they lost by 3 points, good grief

    good thing you're not a Saints fan, or Browns
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  • maybe you'd like to be a Jaguar fan? lol
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  • Twisted wrote:wow, one game? today was bad, well not as bad as you're trying to make it, they lost by 3 points, good grief

    good thing you're not a Saints fan, or Browns

    Pull your head out of the sand. This defense isn't nearly as good as it was early in the season. We are being gashed regularly on the ground and giving up passes we wernt earlier. Huge cause for concern.
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  • So we have all come to conclusion that the Seahawks have an average defense then?


    Average defenses don't win super bowls.
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  • More like stunk up the 4th qtr! Gave up 17 pts with 9 min to go in game!!!
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  • What happens to a team built for speed on Turf when they are on grass? What happens to that team in the 4th qtr when the same grass gets soaked ? Sprinklers just pop up for no reason. :stirthepot: :sarcasm_on: :sarcasm_off:
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  • Tech Worlds wrote:
    Twisted wrote:wow, one game? today was bad, well not as bad as you're trying to make it, they lost by 3 points, good grief

    good thing you're not a Saints fan, or Browns

    Pull your head out of the sand. This defense isn't nearly as good as it was early in the season. We are being gashed regularly on the ground and giving up passes we weren't earlier. Huge cause for concern.



    like I said one game, lets see what happens next week, it can take up to 6 weeks for roid withdrawals to subside, surprised they weren't chasing monkeys out there or disrobing to direct traffic... :D
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  • NFSeahawks628 wrote:So we have all come to conclusion that the Seahawks have an average defense then?


    Average defenses don't win super bowls.



    Packers...Saints...Rams...
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  • The defense isn't nearly as good as we hoped .. that is obvious but they are not horrible. They played bad today but i still like the potential..

    i hate to do this but what positions are priority for the draft?

    I am thinking
    1. Interior DT with pass rush ability (resign Branch if cheap). We need to close the pocket and get in QBs face better than we do now.
    2. CB to match up with Sherman (don't think we can afford Browner and him)
    3. OL to replace our RT or RG. I am also worried about LG but give him at least one more year to get in shape and show he was worth the 1st round pick
    4. WR opposite of Rice. i like Tate but he should be the slot guy IMO. I'd like another BIG target to get 1st downs.
    5. Better depth at LB. Hill is about done it seems. Need to replace him with young guy at some point.

    What else do we need?
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  • Well the right at Wagner stuff is bogus. They hit every gap today and the whole front seven sucked. Wags rarely touches a FB. He wishes that were the case, I'm sure. He's got OL almost exclusively. What he was guilty of today at least 3 times was not locating. The Bush run in particular he was just standing there watching Tannehill like he had the ball and left no backside pursuit. Wags should have been there in pursuit. Have no idea what he was thinking. Whole D on that side was guilty as well, but Wagner needs to do better than that. Great day in coverage, but made at least 3 bad reads today in run D that I saw.

    But for the record, if you pay attention you'll see that Mebane is getting double teamed on nearly every play. Another interesting thing is that he's out in place of McDonald quite a bit for a breather and some of the biggest runs are when Mebane is out. We also have a bad habit of going nickel in stupid situations and take out bigs up front. Such as when the opposing team is within the 5 yard line......

    That killed us against SF and if you watch formations you'll see a lot of big runs on us gash the nickel. The base under D also stunk today though. From what I gathered in listening to most of the Pete conf he talked about guys making wrong reads and referenced Wagner and Chancellor, I THINK (didn't clearly state it), and reference Trufant on that last drive (also didn't clearly state).

    EDIT: And on another note I think Red is CLEARLY not the same player with the foot bothering him. Branch was meh, but did stand out on one play that the announcers gave credit to Hill on for an outside run, but Branch (I THINK) was the one who made the RB go wide as he drove the G back.

    EDIT AGAIN: I suppose I'll add this too. I hate to say it, but almost every time Smith has come in for Hill I see no drop off. Only a few plays that I've seen and sometimes it seems we get better play. He needed to sit today with that ankle and didn't and couldn't run while limping down the field chasing. We can't have that. Don't get me wrong that Clay kid is a talented pass catching TE that can run and getting caught in man like that with a LB deep usually doesn't end well when you don't have two deep safeties. However, some LBs can run. Smith, Morgan, and Toomer can all run with any TE in the league. I'd like to see one of them step up next year to go along with another 4-5th round backer or so. Also didn't like Hill getting smacked by Bush either even though he still made the tackle. I really can't stand that Bush dude for some reason though.

    Actually embarrassed to lose to the Phins today.
    Last edited by vin.couve12 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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  • Turns out Clay is a FB that plays H-back, in line and slot and such. Reminds me of Reece a bit. Good player.
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  • Thought this was the case with Red. His foot is going to be a problem going forward. Really didn't think we'd start Branch at 5 though.
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  • I'd probably go with Jones or Scruggs at the 5 myself. Is Howard active if Red isn't? He was brought in to play the 3, but don't know anything about his progress. Some had him as a top 5 DT in the draft and I agreed with them prior to the draft.
    Last edited by vin.couve12 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • I agree with you, I'd go with Scruggs at the DE, and let the other DTs rotate as normal.
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  • The main reason behind this is because Hawks' defense doesn't get enough turnovers.
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