Two to replace next offseason: Leon and Breno

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  • Leon Washington is on his way out. Washed up. He has had plenty of chances, and in this NFL era where good teams have electric kick returners he doesn't cut it anymore. Sure, he has been stellar throughout his career, but he is about done. We need to draft that young KR stud, or identify him on the roster, and plan for the future.

    I will never buy that Breno Giacomini is a starting caliber RT. He is responsible for the majority of negative runs by Lynch, and how many more times can we watch him get bull rushed and stumble his way directly back toward Wilson? He has no strength, very little technique, and his nastiness costs us in penalties. He has consistently looked like a turnstile over the course of the season. Against good rushers you almost feel bad for him, the way he gets tossed back. Its disgusting to watch and I hope we address it.

    I believe that addressing these two spots, in addition to WR, we will be in great shape.
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  • Yeah.
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  • I don't think Giacomini is that bad, but thats a position worth upgrading, same with Leon, he's reliable, but its worth looking around for a player that has more explosiveness. I love Leon though.
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  • WR and RT are probably the first two positions I hope they address in the offseason.

    Rice is returning to form, and I'm happy with him. Tate is also looking pretty damn good at times, and we finally saw the bubble screen to him be effective. He's also sturdy; Baldwin would be out 3 weeks with the beating Tate took today. The problem is our 3rd - 5th WRs. They aren't very good and we need to improve depth.

    Washington is still rated at the top of the NFC in KR average. Almost all of his kick off return chances were out of the end zone. Minnesota's ST's outplayed ours today; Washington got very little blocking, and you could see his frustration on that last punt return where he tried to reverse his field and ran backwards a bit. He was just trying to make something happen.

    I totally agree with the RT. I'm also not enthused with our RG position. Moffitt seems decent when he's in there, but he's hurt all the time. I could see us drafting all along the OL in the middle rounds to improve depth.
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  • I agree that we need a playmaking receiver for sure....i'm ok with Breno and Leon though!
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  • Get rid of Leon or Breno? Are you crazy?
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  • Definitely agree with Breno. There isn't much to say about him other than he isn't really that special, and is often a bonehead
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  • I think it's too early to call it quits on either, especially Leon. He's had several key returns for us this season that have either won the game for us (NE) or at least put us in position to win (Arizona, St Louis). He's been a little quiet the past few weeks but you can't expect an explosive return every game. I think to a certain extent he's spoiled us. As for Breno, he's adequate but I agree could be upgradeable. I wouldn't spend a high draft pick though on another offensive lineman next season.
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  • Isn't Leon one of the top returners as far as yards go? Yeah he hasn't taken one to the house yet, but his blocking hasn't been great either. I recall him having a huge impact at the end of the Patriots game returning a punt to midfield.
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  • Leon is still Leon if you ask me. I love the dude and hate some of the decisions he makes. Always trying to make a play and that sometimes can lead to bad decisions when there isn't anything there. There's times it seems pretty obvious he should take a knee, but other times you think that and he does make something happen, so idk. Same thing when he starts losing yardage running backward. One thing for sure, dude has as much heart as any. I love watching that dude take it back for 80 yards and get up and be pissed at himself cause he didn't get that last 20 while everyone else is going crazy for what he did do.
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  • NJHawksFan wrote:Isn't Leon one of the top returners as far as yards go? Yeah he hasn't taken one to the house yet, but his blocking hasn't been great either. I recall him having a huge impact at the end of the Patriots game returning a punt to midfield.


    This is a great question, anyone have access to yards per return statistics?

    I feel much more strongly that Breno should be replaced than Washington, but his agility, cut back ability, and overall speed seems to be diminishing each game. He has also had costly fumbles, although he is typically reliable. Things he brings to the table are great vision, toughness, and leadership. I would advocate for grooming someone behind him. Identify a guy in the draft with crazy athleticism and have him learn from the best for a year.
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  • Do you remember Locklear? Or the guy we drafted in ROund 1 to replace him? Giacomini is just fine.

    As for Leon, he is trying to make plays out of nothing. The kick return is a joke in the league and he is above average in punt returns.
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  • lets just can the whole team and draft the current Alabama team lol
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  • Leon IS at the top of the NFC for average. No way I am replacing him at this stage. Breno? Meh, I could either way on him right now. No one believes he's the long term solution at the position.

    I believe we go LB and WR with our first two picks, then OL third and beyond. Of course this depends on what's available in the draft. I think our biggest need is LB for sure, just edging out WR.

    And no, I don't believe we draft the LB in the first.
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  • SoCalHawk wrote:
    NJHawksFan wrote:Isn't Leon one of the top returners as far as yards go? Yeah he hasn't taken one to the house yet, but his blocking hasn't been great either. I recall him having a huge impact at the end of the Patriots game returning a punt to midfield.


    This is a great question, anyone have access to yards per return statistics?

    I feel much more strongly that Breno should be replaced than Washington, but his agility, cut back ability, and overall speed seems to be diminishing each game. He has also had costly fumbles, although he is typically reliable. Things he brings to the table are great vision, toughness, and leadership. I would advocate for grooming someone behind him. Identify a guy in the draft with crazy athleticism and have him learn from the best for a year.


    Grooming? That happened 20 years ago..... Players come ready to play anymore.
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  • I don't think we should replace Breno just because I believe in continuity. Yeah, he makes dumb mistakes, but I think he can only get better.
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  • Breno isn't the most dominate rt to ever play, bit his attitude is exactly what we need. That guy plays PISSED.I think a lot of his problem is the RG play. I would much rather see a giant dirtbag RG drafted next year before we go and try to upgrade Breno.
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  • I hope we go DT in the draft. Toughest position to find talent at later in/outside the draft. Aside from QB of course. Those guys don't grow on trees, as they say.
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  • I don't think either one of those guys are replacement level players.

    Breno is getting a bad rap right now, but I think it's an overreaction. Dude's the best pass blocking RT we've had in quite a few years and I don't think he's hit his ceiling yet. He just has to keep his rage between the whistles and he'll be fine.

    Leon is a situational player that does what he does well. He's the momo of this squad imo.
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  • I hate BG's penalties, but to his credit he has limited them in the last few games, and as was pointed out earlier, he will more than likely get better.

    Leon gives that dimension of the possibility of a big play every time he touches the ball.

    Bottom line is I like both of them.

    Wide receiver is the top priority in my estimation.
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  • Don't rid of em till we get someone we know is better.

    Turbin's play has really been the change in the RB core. Leon laid out Eric berry in the preseason for Wilson. That was a good play.

    I did see Breno dominate a play two this last game.....or was i IMAGINING THAT.
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  • I think Breno is going to be here for a while. Penalties aside, he's the best RT we've had in several years. Let us not forget guys like Kyle Williams or Sean Locklear. Breno is replaceable, but not a player that is easy to replace. I do expect that Seattle will draft a tackle prospect somewhere in the draft: if nothing else because this team lacks competition there. But for 2013 and 2014 I expect him to continue starting. And really, it's not such a bad thing. He's had some tough games, but he's had some dominant looking games too.

    Leon Washington started the year strong, but has slumped lately. The team should begin their search for his replacement this offseason, and if they don't find one I'd be fine with giving Leon one more year. But if we get a guy like Tavon Austin, I'd probably let Leon go and see what Austin can offer right away. To be fair, Leon could just be in a slump right now. I haven't seen any massive red flags yet that suggest his speed is gone.
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  • I think both are playing quite well, Breno has checked his fire a bit as of late and Leon is still a bad man......sure it might me time to look at the next guy (via he draft) in line but neither warrants a top pick to replace immediately. We got bigger fish to fry at the moment.
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  • Largent80 wrote:I hate BG's penalties, but to his credit he has limited them in the last few games, and as was pointed out earlier, he will more than likely get better.

    Leon gives that dimension of the possibility of a big play every time he touches the ball.

    Bottom line is I like both of them.

    Wide receiver is the top priority in my estimation.



    I endorse this post yet would like to add, pass rusher ( insurance for Irvin or if #91 gets injured)
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  • Breno is not the sole problem of our offensive line woes. He's been very solid given the expectations of that position and who was drafted to fill it. Our whole line needs more work, but they have been improving each week. For example, on that touchdown pass to Rice, Moffit got beat badly by the DT which caused Wilson to bail to his right. Wilson found his lane and fired it down the middle to Rice, TD! Point is, every linemen gets beat once in awhile. To call for Brenos replacement this soon is just silly.
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  • kearly wrote:I think Breno is going to be here for a while. Penalties aside, he's the best RT we've had in several years. Let us not forget guys like Kyle Williams or Sean Locklear. Breno is replaceable, but not a player that is easy to replace. I do expect that Seattle will draft a tackle prospect somewhere in the draft: if nothing else because this team lacks competition there. But for 2013 and 2014 I expect him to continue starting. And really, it's not such a bad thing. He's had some tough games, but he's had some dominant looking games too.

    Leon Washington started the year strong, but has slumped lately. The team should begin their search for his replacement this offseason, and if they don't find one I'd be fine with giving Leon one more year. But if we get a guy like Tavon Austin, I'd probably let Leon go and see what Austin can offer right away. To be fair, Leon could just be in a slump right now. I haven't seen any massive red flags yet that suggest his speed is gone.


    Yep. Those two are both pretty serviceable guys and are far from the liabilities the op would make them out to be, but there is definately room to improve at their spots as well. Draft guys to come in and compete if guys who can compete are available when we pick, but don't go into the draft hellbent on replacing Breno and Leon. That's where busts and flops come from...

    I'm actually really looking forward to this draft. It's feasibly the first time in a long time where we don't have any glaring needs and can straight up go BPA! And I actually trust that John Schneider will actually TAKE the best player avaialble. :)
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  • HawksFTW wrote:Get rid of Leon or Breno? Are you crazy?



    If I were PC/JS I would only replace them if it were truly an upgrade. I like Breno's hustle and attitude more than the penalti hes called for. He brings a definate edge to our line thats for sure. I think Leon Washington doesn't appear the same this year I agree. Maybe he's trying too hard to make something happen, which sometimes makes things worse.
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  • Two positions I'd rather we updrade is Leroy Hill and Anthony McCoy.

    If we had a playmaking TE and a more another linebacker who was versatile enough to play the run well and provide a bit of 3rd down pass rushing when needed we'd be improved much more than replacing Breno and Leon.
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  • SoCalHawk wrote:Leon Washington is on his way out. Washed up. He has had plenty of chances, and in this NFL era where good teams have electric kick returners he doesn't cut it anymore. Sure, he has been stellar throughout his career, but he is about done. We need to draft that young KR stud, or identify him on the roster, and plan for the future.

    I will never buy that Breno Giacomini is a starting caliber RT. He is responsible for the majority of negative runs by Lynch, and how many more times can we watch him get bull rushed and stumble his way directly back toward Wilson? He has no strength, very little technique, and his nastiness costs us in penalties. He has consistently looked like a turnstile over the course of the season. Against good rushers you almost feel bad for him, the way he gets tossed back. Its disgusting to watch and I hope we address it.

    I believe that addressing these two spots, in addition to WR, we will be in great shape.


    Been kind of hoping we draft Jake Matthews from A&M for the right tackle issue in the first round. Second round i think Tavon Austin could possibly slip there. He would be an electrifying player out of the slot and for kick and punt returns.
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  • joeshaney wrote:Two positions I'd rather we updrade is Leroy Hill and Anthony McCoy.

    If we had a playmaking TE and a more another linebacker who was versatile enough to play the run well and provide a bit of 3rd down pass rushing when needed we'd be improved much more than replacing Breno and Leon.


    If we did have a shot at getting Alec Ogletree i would love our FO if they pulled the trigger on him. Used to be a saftey and is now an OLB. So he has the coverage skills along with the explosiveness and athletic ability you get from someone who used to roam the back end. I just see that kid going in the top 10 top 15 latest. So i don't think we will get that chance.
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  • Breno is obnoxious with his penalties, Leon should never leave, he's too good, don't know what you're smoking there.
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  • I'm not saying Breno sucks, but he's the most replaceable player on the offense, outside of WR.

    he has problems with speed rushers, causing him to hold. He is a dominant run blocker, but he's in the top 5 for most penalized OLmen in the game. Look at the posts in this thread. We have comparisons to how good he is in regards to our last few RT's, which isn't a ringing endorsement at all. Then you get people calling him "servicable" and "dominant at times" and no one disregards all the penalties.

    That seriously sounds like someone we can't upgrade ? If he gets replaced, maybe he is the good depth, and gets pissed and fired up, and maybe gets his job back by playing even better, which is still improvement either way.

    We badly need WR depth, top end WR talent (can address both problems with 1 pick, sweet !) and top end LB talent. I'm not thrilled with our depth behind Hill, and he's degrading down to average talent now. We can still afford to go BPA in the 1st three rounds with 3 tech DT, RT, interior OL, WR and LB. If we trade Flynn, or just let him go, we may need a backup Qb.
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  • kearly wrote:Leon Washington started the year strong, but has slumped lately. The team should begin their search for his replacement this offseason, and if they don't find one I'd be fine with giving Leon one more year. But if we get a guy like Tavon Austin, I'd probably let Leon go and see what Austin can offer right away. To be fair, Leon could just be in a slump right now. I haven't seen any massive red flags yet that suggest his speed is gone.


    If we wait until next offseason, I believe Ace Sanders can be had in the fifth or sixth round and I love the kid as a kick and punt returner.
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  • Letting go of Breno would be a huge mistake. He has shown flashes of excellence and he is still learning/growing. Penalties are improving (besides, 2 of his early roughness penalties were bad calls for legitimate contact BEFORE the whistle had blown).

    At the least he is a good (and versatile) backup. At the best - see Kevin Mawae (a mistake which should not be repeated).


    Leon has a few bad games as a returner and people are calling for his job. Seriously? He's been one of the top returners in the league the past few years - a few bad games doesn't mean he's lost his abilities.
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  • Hmm i think breno is fine.. i think leon is fine HOWEVER!!!!
    If we can get an explosive wide out/returner i think that would be an upgrade, we get barely any synergy with leon right now he is a one trick pony and most of the time they are putting it in the end zone on kick offs.. so that means we only get him 50% of the time. (Punts)

    I would prefere a DE, or Linebacker first though.

    ohhh and that highschool kicker that hit the 67 yard field goal.
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  • I'm not stressed to replace either.

    KR as you say is not a big position in need, we already have a back up RB who does a great job in catching the ball out of the outfield in Turbin, so why waste a pick replacing Leon? I also don't think his skills have diminished that much, it's just the new kickoff rules are minimizing that aspect of special teams.

    With Breno -- I will admit, if you asked me a few weeks ago I would have agreed. But his penalties have been under control as of late, and without studying the tape I just know that we've been running and pass blocking effectively the last few games, and Breno hasn't stuck out as being someone underperforming.

    What I like going into next year's draft is that with the exception of WR (where I still think we need a deep, downfield threat) we really don't have any desperate position of need. So that means Schneider can do what he does best -- take whatever guy he falls in love with to fit out schemes. If that's a RT, then cool.
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  • Leon is 7th in kick return average, and 13th in PR average


    Explain to me how that makes him someone to replace?

    As for Breno, I do think we need to draft a replacement either this year or the next..... but to ride the pine and learn our system while Breno holds the spot for a couple more

    IMO a 2nd TE and another outside WR are what we need..... while Tate is stepping up, I like him subbing in for Rice/X receiver and in on 4 WR sets more than starting for us
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  • An OLB to replace Leroy, a deep-threat WR, another TE (who is a legitimate receiving threat)...better depth at DT
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  • bigcc wrote:Leon is 7th in kick return average, and 13th in PR average

    Explain to me how that makes him someone to replace?

    As for Breno, I do think we need to draft a replacement either this year or the next..... but to ride the pine and learn our system while Breno holds the spot for a couple more

    IMO a 2nd TE and another outside WR are what we need..... while Tate is stepping up, I like him subbing in for Rice/X receiver and in on 4 WR sets more than starting for us


    Quite simply he's declining with age, it's realistic to assume that he'll fail to break the top 10 next season, and we should never be happy with a player who is "middle-of-the-road". I want a RB who tops the league in yards, a QB with the highest rating at the end of the season, WRs with more TDs than anyone else, corners with more INTS than anyone else, D-Linemen with more sacks than anyone else etc...
    why would I be happy with a returner outside the top 10?
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  • I like Breno for a couple of reasons. The time Pete benched him for a couple of series, the look on his face was of someone that wanted to be a part of the team and was dieing being out of the lineup.

    His actions drastically improved from that moment on.

    I am really impressed that our offensive line has done as well as it has because again we haven't had the same line together very much again this season. They should get nothing but better over the next couple of seasons the more they play together.

    And I say again to many here, offensive lines can not be "instantly" improved merely by plugging in new/different players. Other than the standard which we see a lot of here, it takes a long time to get to know each other. This has been true since the beginning of the NFL.

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  • Washed up? Not sure how you can say this seeing as Leon is the reason Russell and Rice hooked up to beat the Pats. So right there IMO he's worth his salary this year. Leon also had a great return to set up a win in Arizona, but the offense couldn't score with like seven chances inside the 10 yard line.

    You need your return game to help win 2-3 games per year, and so far Leon's on pace for that. It's not his fault he's had very few opportunities..........and when he's had a chance to return punts his blockers aren't getting the job done most of the time.
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  • I can see making additions to the OLine every year, until they are solid with depth. It is the key to so much offensively and we know how quickly an injured line can be exposed. That is why I think that one should be drafted in the first 3 rounds every year along with one longshot in the later rounds.

    LW?? The guy is pretty versatile, but I think he is looking for the home-run on every play. Even the wife can't stand watching him run backwards looking for a hole. Last week, he cost a few yards doing that and then the PR from the end zone? He was lucky to make it to the 21 that time.

    I say let Leon return for the season and if still hoses it, then look at Tate. Tate is a fantastic runner at times, tough and makes people miss. Leon works hard in the few carries he sees and is a good receiver out of the backfield, I am just not ready to call him washed up yet.
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  • Agree with dumping both of these players after the season.

    It's frustrating watching Leon take the ball out at least five yards deep in the endzone and get stopped before the fifteen. No need to hurt Russell and the offensive by making their drive five yards longer.
    Last week against the Vikings, he returned a punt while standing in the endzone. Awful. If he wouldn't have taken that back to the twenty where he got tackled, I wouldn't have been surprised to see Tate returning punts.

    Breno isn't starting caliber. Too many boneheaded penalties that stalls drives. Against Detroit where Suh basically picked him up and drove him back five yards was embarassing.
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  • Jerhawk wrote:It's frustrating watching Leon take the ball out at least five yards deep in the endzone and get stopped before the fifteen. No need to hurt Russell and the offensive by making their drive five yards longer.
    Last week against the Vikings, he returned a punt while standing in the endzone. Awful. If he wouldn't have taken that back to the twenty where he got tackled, I wouldn't have been surprised to see Tate returning punts.


    I think even Leon agrees that it was a bonehead play, but it shows that he's frustrated and hungry to make a play.

    The bottom line for me is you don't replace a player unless you have a better player in line to take his place...........and as of now we don't. Leon is still a top 10 return guy in the NFL. Plus he's a veteran that doesn't fumble the ball. Just ask the 49'ers how valuable that is.
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  • This is way too soon for this.

    We need to bring in a stud linebacker.
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    SonicHawk
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  • loafoftatupu wrote:I can see making additions to the OLine every year, until they are solid with depth. It is the key to so much offensively and we know how quickly an injured line can be exposed. That is why I think that one should be drafted in the first 3 rounds every year along with one longshot in the later rounds.

    LW?? The guy is pretty versatile, but I think he is looking for the home-run on every play. Even the wife can't stand watching him run backwards looking for a hole. Last week, he cost a few yards doing that and then the PR from the end zone? He was lucky to make it to the 21 that time.

    I say let Leon return for the season and if still hoses it, then look at Tate. Tate is a fantastic runner at times, tough and makes people miss. Leon works hard in the few carries he sees and is a good receiver out of the backfield, I am just not ready to call him washed up yet.


    Oh I vehimently disagree with letting Tate return kicks, and it's not that I think he'd be bad at it (far from it, I think he'd be great). No, if Walter Thurmond has taught us anything, it's that you don't throw a vital starter to the wolves by having him return kicks (yes, Tate is a vital starter). T3 has never really recovered from that horrible knee injury he sustained returning a kick in college. Kick return is like the fricken Thunderdome. Let a back up change of pace guy like Leon do the deed for sure, but your starting WR? No way. Tate is proving to be way too valuable for the offense. I bet Earl Thomas would be amongst the very best returners in the whole entire league, but he is way to valuable to our defense to have him out there playing demolition derby returning kicks.

    Unfortunately, I think the change in the kick off rule really screwed Leon. He just doesn't get the opportunities to earn the incentives in the contract we gave him (our defense being amongst the league leaders in points against probably isn't helping him either - not that I'd complain). A quick look at his stats on Profootballreference.com actually shows that for all his kickoff returns are way down from years past (he's on pace for 26 returns on the year compared to 50 every full year he's played - not counting his first year or the injury year) but his average return is actually way up (30 yards per return vs. about 25 in years past). He just hasn't taken one to the house yet since they changed the kickoff.

    I'd maybe be on the lookout for a replacement burner returner (is that like hitter tackler?) because Leon ain't getting any younger, but I don't think it's a glaring need right now. Leon's still Leon as far as I'm concerned...
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    CANHawk
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  • The reason for this thread wasn't to say that Leon or Breno are terrible players. Leon WAS an excellent returner for his entire career, and this year is average to above average. However, he is no spring chicken, and I was advocating to spend a later round pick on a specialist as to plan for Leon's replacement in a year or so.

    And with respect to what I'm "smokin", there is absolutely no way I buy that Breno is, by his own merits, a quality starting tackle. I have eyes like everyone else here, and I would ask you to go back and watch the Vikings game. Each time RW is flushed out of the pocket or Lynch is hit for a loss or no gain, it is invariably due to Breno being dominated by the defender. Just watch him try to defend the bull rush like he did against the 49ers...he gets manhandled by any quality lineman.

    However, I agree with radish that despite these shortcomings there are more important things than talent along the OL. He is being coached well and hopefully will improve. But don't act like he is a great player.
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