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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:04 pm 
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redeye81 wrote:
Ok assess what?

It's like assessing at half time.. it's not over yet..


Ok, that's fine. This thread isn't for you.

I didn't realize we had to wait until the off-season for assessments...

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:06 pm 
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redeye81 wrote:
Ok assess what?

It's like assessing at half time.. it's not over yet..


Assess what he's done so far. The season isn't one long 84 quarter game. It's a 16 game season. 4-4 is a poor start. We're another step closer to going 7-9 yet again. Assess what has happened in the first 8 games. It's unacceptable. The improvements were supposed to be coming fast and furious this year. The team had goals. Their goals weren't to finish one game better than last year, which is what they'd be lucky to be on pace for. They talked about winning the division and going deep in the playoffs. Those were THEIR goals. Not goals I made for them. So far the assessment is that they aren't really doing that well.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:09 pm 
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We are also a step from being 10-6.. how do you say we're closer to 7-9? come on we played on the road.. we need to win 2 road games and all our home games. We are right on track..

I still think this assessment is chicken little.. but whatever..


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:11 pm 
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Geez guys, what he's saying is not that radical. All he's saying is that we should look at how things are progressing and how Pete's doing. He's not saying Pete sucks, or what we see now is a finished product or anything.

Seems like some here just like to argue for the sake of arguiing.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:11 pm 
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The way I see it, we now enter pre-season part 2.

Including next year's pre-season, we now have 12 full games to get this thing fine tuned. If we are 4-4 this time next year, it should be aloha Pete (take Sark with you).


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:13 pm 
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lol i agree.. but the title of thread is "Pete in the cross hairs" how you can say that is not radical??? Even the NRA would see that as radical.. lol

You have to look at the whole picture.. We win our home games and steal one more road win we're in.... how that for an assessment?


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:14 pm 
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Holmgren went to the playoffs year one, blew the team up rebuilt and it was not till year 5 that we became a playoff team again.

Sure seems to me that Pete Carroll's rebuild is coming along quicker then Holmgren"s


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:15 pm 
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JSeahawks wrote:
Geez guys, what he's saying is not that radical. All he's saying is that we should look at how things are progressing and how Pete's doing. He's not saying Pete sucks, or what we see now is a finished product or anything.

Seems like some here just like to argue for the sake of arguiing.


Yeah...didn't think it was be this inflammatory. It's very simple, actually.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:16 pm 
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In the cross hairs means he's being focused on. His ability and results are being targeted. That's how I read it. Not that they were going to blow up the front office. It means, it's time to analyze what is going wrong and if it is with the coaching staff then Pete needs to make changes there and turn over some things, whether they be schemes, or coaches. He went through 500 players. Now it's time to fine tune his coaching and his coaching staff. If he can do that with the current guys, then terrific. But it doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe it's time to try 10 new offensive and defensive coordinators eh?

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Ya Holmgren must have been in the cross hairs in 2004.. just kidding Greg....

I agree i get pissed when we lose.. it sucks but lets just see what happens.. if we lose out go like 6-10.. let's talk about cross hairs.. i'll sight the rifle for you!


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:19 pm 
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redeye81 wrote:
Ya Holmgren must have been in the cross hairs in 2004.. just kidding Greg....

I agree i get pissed when we lose.. it sucks but lets just see what happens.. if we lose out go like 6-10.. let's talk about cross hairs.. i'll sight the rifle for you!


I'm actually NOT pissed. I'm more disheartened. And red I give you a pass because you and I are usually in step. :P

My concern is this fan base has become accustomed to mediocrity and is afraid to open Pandoras Box and look at the top of the pyramid...

Again - I LOVE Pete. He's done remarkable things to turn us into a competitor. We could very well end up 11-5 this season.

The whole point of the thread AT THIS POINT is to assess Carroll. We have nuked the QB position, the WRs, the defense. There is more here to evaluate.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:40 pm 
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SharkHawk wrote:
Assess what he's done so far. The season isn't one long 84 quarter game. It's a 16 game season. 4-4 is a poor start. We're another step closer to going 7-9 yet again. Assess what has happened in the first 8 games. It's unacceptable. The improvements were supposed to be coming fast and furious this year. The team had goals. Their goals weren't to finish one game better than last year, which is what they'd be lucky to be on pace for. They talked about winning the division and going deep in the playoffs. Those were THEIR goals. Not goals I made for them. So far the assessment is that they aren't really doing that well.

While I think the team is underperforming and needs to be assessed and adjusted, I have to point out that at this time last year, we were on pace to be 4-12.

"Pace" is a meaningless term in football, IMO. Or to be more precise, it refers to a flawed/fictional concept.

Back on topic. I like the fact that we are close in the games we have lost. It is much better than getting blown out. I do not like that we can't seem to put a team away when we have the opportunity. And I really can't stand this 3rd down curse/anomaly/whatever this team seems to be suffering. I get that we're a young team, and I sometimes have to remind myself that Wilson, Irvin, Wagner, Turbin, etc. are still rookies, but that doesn't explain the problems the team has had all over. The coaches right now are part of the problem.

I'm still drinking the koolaid, and in PC&JS I trust. But come on, guys, give yourselves a slap in the face and figure this out!

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:41 pm 
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BlueTalon wrote:
SharkHawk wrote:
Assess what he's done so far. The season isn't one long 84 quarter game. It's a 16 game season. 4-4 is a poor start. We're another step closer to going 7-9 yet again. Assess what has happened in the first 8 games. It's unacceptable. The improvements were supposed to be coming fast and furious this year. The team had goals. Their goals weren't to finish one game better than last year, which is what they'd be lucky to be on pace for. They talked about winning the division and going deep in the playoffs. Those were THEIR goals. Not goals I made for them. So far the assessment is that they aren't really doing that well.

While I think the team is underperforming and needs to be assessed and adjusted, I have to point out that at this time last year, we were on pace to be 4-12.

"Pace" is a meaningless term in football, IMO. Or to be more precise, it refers to a flawed/fictional concept.

Back on topic. I like the fact that we are close in the games we have lost. It is much better than getting blown out. I do not like that we can't seem to put a team away when we have the opportunity. And I really can't stand this 3rd down curse/anomaly/whatever this team seems to be suffering. I get that we're a young team, and I sometimes have to remind myself that Wilson, Irvin, Wagner, Turbin, etc. are still rookies, but that doesn't explain the problems the team has had all over. The coaches right now are part of the problem.

I'm still drinking the koolaid, and in PC&JS I trust. But come on, guys, give yourselves a slap in the face and figure this out!


Well stated, Blue. Perfect example of being objectionable and yet hopeful and passionate about the team.

Wish we had more of that in here.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:45 pm 
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I like this post.

Debate is good, and is necessary for growth. There is nothing really knee jerk. I don't think I'm the only one who felt today should have been a win I don't care how good the Lions were last year they were 2-4 coming into this game.

I am starting to question Pete Carroll whether it be him or his hired coaches someone is not getting the job done, also who challenges a play that will result in a first down either way? Thats lack of football intelligence and there really is no excuse for something even fans can see.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:48 pm 
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NFSeahawks628 wrote:
I like this post.

Debate is good, and is necessary for growth. There is nothing really knee jerk. I don't think I'm the only one who felt today should have been a win I don't care how good the Lions were last year they were 2-4 coming into this game.

I am starting to question Pete Carroll whether it be him or his hired coaches someone is not getting the job done, also who challenges a play that will result in a first down either way? Thats lack of football intelligence and there really is no excuse for something even fans can see.


I still have faith in the coaches...I just think Pete needs to be way more aggressive in his implementation of changes.

We are seeing some of the same disturbing things every week. That's on the head coach.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:51 pm 
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Really. I don't see coaching as a problem.

Players are supposed to make plays, and when they don't ....that is coaching?

Sorry...not true.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:55 pm 
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Largent80 wrote:
Really. I don't see coaching as a problem.

Players are supposed to make plays, and when they don't ....that is coaching?

Sorry...not true.


I have never disagreed with you...so I won't start now. :th2thumbs:

But I have to ask--where is the line between head coach and player performance?

I guess it boils down to this...if we end up 7-9 or 8-8 again, is everyone still onboard?

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:57 pm 
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At some point we have to start winning more then we lose.

That's Pete's job. If he can't then they will take it away. And they would be justified to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:57 pm 
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Largent80 wrote:
Really. I don't see coaching as a problem.

Players are supposed to make plays, and when they don't ....that is coaching?

Sorry...not true.


The players don't decide the defensive coverage. Starting with Kolb and going down at least 4 others games the opposing QB has dink and dunked across the middle of the field with great success. We have solid players on defense, something isn't adding up.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:57 pm 
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Largent80 wrote:
Really. I don't see coaching as a problem.


In general I don't. It is just certain situations. The 3rd and long defense is a problem. Is that 100% execution. 100% coaching? a combo? Coaching in general has been good. Player acquisition has been better though. There needs to be some assessment here to determine why we aren't much better than an average team right now. 3 years in, we should be better. There are teams that started "rebuilding" at the same time, that have rebuilt much quicker. The question is why? How did San Francisco get better so quickly? Was it because they were just underperforming for years? What about the Rams already beating us this year after being godawful just a year ago? What about the massive improvements seen by some teams that were much worse than us? We're kind of stagnant. Average from year to year. We could have a bad year and a great year (like the Jets seem to do). But why aren't we at the point where we're at least able to stop a team on 3rd and long. It's just that one issue that's driving us all bonkers. That is something that needs fixing ASAP, and this will be a seriously good team.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:58 pm 
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Largent80 wrote:
Really. I don't see coaching as a problem.

Players are supposed to make plays, and when they don't ....that is coaching?

Sorry...not true.

Yes and no. Execution on any given play is on the players. Consistent execution, or patterns of execuation, are on the coaches. Scheme is on the coaches.

And something isn't right.

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Last edited by BlueTalon on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:59 pm 
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Tech Worlds wrote:
At some point we have to start winning more then we lose.

That's Pete's job. If he can't then they will take it away. And they would be justified to do so.


Thanks, Dom. You hit it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Did anyone else wonder what was up with the running play with 12 sec left in the second quarter? Seems like it screwed us out of 3 points.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:15 pm 
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I think they thought (as Holmgren always did) that the draw play is worth at least 6 or 7 yards as it is supposed to catch teams off guard, as it was an OBVIOUS pass situation. Unfortunately the team seems to be tipping plays in that situation as the draw fools nobody.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:18 pm 
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No one has a crystal ball for this season. We could go on a win streak to end it for all we know. I think it's a bit premature to be jumping to these kinds of conclusions when it's only week 8. There's no telling how the record comes out until all the games are played and all the chips are down. No offense to the OP intended.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Bakergirl wrote:
No one has a crystal ball for this season. We could go on a win streak to end it for all we know. I think it's a bit premature to be jumping to these kinds of conclusions when it's only week 8. There's no telling how the record comes out until all the games are played and all the chips are down. No offense to the OP intended.


Perfectly acceptable response...

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:27 pm 
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My random ideas on Pete as HC.

He has implemented some unique concepts on defense that were un-heard of. But the recent losses and earlier games has exposed a vulnerability in the defense that has to be plugged. He seems to have a good feel for player development and procurement. The offense has been given an identity running the ball that I am proud of but teams are starting to take it away. His QB is getting better which may allow him to keep the offense from being minimized.

He appears to have gotten the penalties in check and there are positive points to note with the team.

He isn't in the league of a Bellichick but he could be seen as a Cowher if he can get over the hump. I saw this team as 9-7 and that is still my thought. It is a shame that two winnable games the past two weeks slipped away but I don't see this as a disaster. Until the team can go on the road and win more than 50% they will be competitive at home and a nice adversary on the road with very minimal results.

Depending on how the team ends the season, Pete could be on notice next season. Would be a shock to me if anything happens to him after this season but again, depends on how the season plays out.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:40 pm 
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Gut feeling says we can't keep playing to be in close games and hope for the best.

Looking at our roster, maybe that's the best we can do with what we have.

A piece or two here and there, my gut says we can turn the tables and play to win consistently next year. If a few guys step up and "get it," maybe even later this year.

I just keep thinking how utterly, maddeningly hopeless this entire team was a few years ago. No excuses for what they are doing now. Just saying, expecting to win every week is a serious improvement over the 2006-2009 years. Pete & John have a whole lot to do with that.

To revamp this team the way they have is impressive. To completely kill the demons of the past they will have to put all the pieces in place to win on the road and take control of the division, first and foremost.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:42 pm 
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I don't have a problem with this at all. To me, I compare the players we had in 2011 and our replacements.

RW vs. TJack?
Hawthorne vs. Wagner?
2011 Rice & Tate vs. 2012 version
2011 TEs vs. 2012 version
Pass rush improved?

To me, I see improvement regardless of what the record says. And, the team has 2 rookies starting in key positions on both sides of the ball, so I see rookie mistakes/breakdowns during the game, but the potential is there.

My expectations were modest given those circumstances, but I see a ton of upside for the rest of the year and beyond.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:56 pm 
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I think 8 games is enough sample size to determine if the trends are due to coaching or execution. And it's starting to look like it's coaching, especially on 3rd and long. Our players are not that bad.

That said, I still think we can get over the hump. Just tempering my expectations a bit, and will go along with what Schneider said about this being a four-year plan.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:04 pm 
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This team went from a very bad division at 7-9 to a easier schedule at 7-9 to a legitimate contender at 4-4 after 8 grueling weeks.

He has built one of the best secondaries in the league, a QB who, in his rookie season, looks like a solid NFL QB but is still pieces away from being great.

10-6 is not too hard to think is possible. And even 8-8, while disappointing, would still be an improvement and considering our schedule, respectable.

How this season finishes will determine if he is on the hot seat next year.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:27 pm 
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edogg23 wrote:
Did anyone else wonder what was up with the running play with 12 sec left in the second quarter? Seems like it screwed us out of 3 points.


Playing not to lose instead of playing to win. Sark pulled the same crap last nite but in the end, Wilcox's defense was hungrier than *Pete's was today.

* Yes, Pete's play calling was more to blame than the defense itself, but you can't put it all on Pete. Not at this level. The D is the strength of this team and they lost this one today. They are a young unit and got a taste of humility. Let's hope they remember this feeling for a long time to come.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:35 pm 
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I don't really know what this thread is about.

You want to assess him? Ok, go ahead. We do that every week, Pete has been criticized for bonehead moves in personnel (Charlie) and on the field (see: 61 yd FG attempt at the Clink last year among others). I don't think Pete is beyond reproach, and I don't think that's how he's been treated.

So you're saying put him in the crosshairs but not in the hot seat? What does that even mean? I just don't understand the difference between these abstract concepts. If you mean judge him for his decisions...ok....that happens week in and week out. If you mean consider replacing him, in which case crosshairs and hot seat are the same thing, then I don't think it's time for that yet. It doesn't sound like you're advocating replacing him this offseason, so then what are we talking about?

All I can take from this whole thing is that you want to judge and criticize Pete week to week, not think about replacing him this year, but be open to the idea of replacing him after next year if things don't go well? That's where everybody on this board is at, I think, you just used the word crosshairs.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Damn right he needs to be looked at, I look at team like the Dolphins, doing more with less. Today was atrocious, that's a soft team they let hang around then beat them.

I'm not saying fire Pete, but his job is to get them over the hump. Its hasn't happened yet, and it may waste another year. Rice was kinda a bonehead today, Tate last week, Breno week before, etc and for 2 weeks straight our Defense gets worked via scheme.

Frustrating.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:37 pm 
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7 and 9 seasons each year are not good enough for me.

He gets paid to win. I am becoming tired of waiting.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:59 pm 
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The fact that we're here having this conversation means the team is headed in the right direction.

For comparison sake, go take a look at 2001 Seattle Seahawks under 3rd year HC Mike Holmgren. Now tell me, which team would you rather have? The fact that we're coming out every week expecting to win is a positive. Just two years ago we were expecting to lose these games. SF turned around so quickly because they got a football coach that knows what the crap he's doing with a football team. MIA is playing way over their heads right now. I think Pete gets his 5 years at the least, the last time Paul Allen hand picked his head coach it was Holmgren and he got the full contract and then some even though the team consistently under-performed until 2005. Paul genuinely seems to like Pete Carroll and as long as Pete and John can show any sort of improvement and can quantify why they have their jobs then Paul is going to let them run with their plan.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta put Pete in the cross hairs
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:07 pm 
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I agree. The niners lost the the vikes 24-13 with a 17-3 halftime score. They also lost the NYG 26-3 and the score didn't really show how they were dominated. and that was a home game.

i don't want a so-so team, I want divison amd conference champions, but I think this team is on the verge.


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