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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:55 pm 
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JSeahawks wrote:
Nothing weird about that. Max protection and two man routes are pretty common league wide.

Bevell may not be the problem, but we can sure as hell do a lot better.


Pretty much how I feel too. When Wilson becomes more consistent, when the passing game develops chemistry, we will have a good enough offense to win a Superbowl (considering our defense). Bevell isn't "good enough" right now, but he might be in 2013. He's basically in that grey area between "keep" and "replace." If someone with credentials became available, I'd dump Bevell in a second, but I wouldn't want to see Seattle firing him unless they already had someone in mind to replace him. Teams with young QBs should not take OC changes lightly.

One of the problems our team has is that almost all the coaching talent favors defense in some way. Bevell is basically following marching orders from a brilliant defensive coach, with the goal of the offense being to assist the defense first, avoid turnovers second, and score points third. Cable is a great line coach, but his style is tailored to the running game which goes hand in hand with ball control and scoring less. I'm not saying I want Mike Holmgren here as OC, because I don't and it would never happen anyway, but I'd love to see Pete Carroll bring in a big ego, big results offensive mind to basically take over the offense for us. Someone like Jeremy Bates, basically.

If Andy Reid gets canned this year, I won't be able to sleep every night thinking about my irrational hope for Andy Reid being OC for us. Pete probably wouldn't do it and Reid probably wouldn't do it, but Reid would be the perfect fit for our offense and QB.


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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:18 am 
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I've followed the Eagles since Cunningham and AR is the most pass happy coach there is. He became head over heals in love with the passing game after losing to the greatest show on turf in the 2000 playoffs. He's impatient in game planning, has no feel for the play action and has the nerve to consistently run play action plays even when there is no chance of them running, mismanages the clock and timeouts, and is generally just not the best friend of QBs. AR needs to take some time off of football in general. Maybe a year away at least to spend with his family. That won't change his obsession with passing mania though. Personally, I don't have much respect for his offensive philosophy and wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole, but if like a 60-65% pass ratio consistently with a lot of long developing plays that are hard to protect the QB then he'd be right up your alley.


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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:31 am 
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The entire offense as a whole has room for improvement. Some of Bevell's playcalling has been questionable, but it doesn't help when the receivers drop the ball and Breno comes charging in for a sure personal foul.

Give Wilson more experience and this offense will get it rolling. Until then, let's keep up that running game. Keep the defense rested and we'll have a good chance at winning.

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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:30 am 
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Bevell has been like so many other things tied to our offensive performance. Inconsistent. And maybe not a clear "fire him now" calibre issue but...

When I'm calling plays from the other room with a 75% success rate and am not an NFL coach, what in Clipboard Jesus' name are actual NFL coaches/scouts/players seeing from the play calling?

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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:42 am 
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I'm not a huge Bevell fan, and I can't stand the run-run-pass tendency and the damn bubble screens that are always easily recognized. If you want to run bubble screens every week, change up the formation and throw them to someone other than Tate.

But you know what works even better than a slick Offensive Coordinator?

EXECUTION.

What is bevell supposed to be about being handcuffed by the head coach? Or the penalties on Giacomini that wiped out 70+ yards of offense in Carolina, including a gorgeus 50-yard strike to Tate? or the five dropped passes against SF?

I do think Bevell needs to call more player-specific plays at times and not so many situational dependent. Play sheets are designed for both - and I think when it goes two quarters between attempts to Sidney Rice or Zach Miller (like against SF), you have to dial up some good plays to keep them in a rhythm. That's one of the biggest issues I've seen with the offense - they start well, throw it around a little bit...and then guys disappear.

And if you want to play the blame game, some has to be levied at PC/JS. They ignored the WR position in the draft and showed their desparation cards when they brought in guys like Antonio Bryant, TO and Braylon Edwards. A lot of us realized we were going to have issues at the WR position. Baldwin's broken season has not helped at all.

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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:01 am 
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I think coordinators and coaches get too much credit when things are rolling, and conversely get too much blame when things go wrong.

Is Bevell the best O-coordinator in the league? No, but even the best laid schemes, game plans and play calling requires the players to execute. Take your pick of the greatest offensive minds in NFL history, and he'd have a hard time generating this team some offense with a rookie QB, drops, protection issues and stupid penalties.

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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:02 am 
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hawksfan515 wrote:
BTW, admit it Bevell haters. He's not the problem here. If you think he is, show me some actual evidence...


The number of times we've gone run-run-pass-punt. It makes vanilla look exciting. Look dude, nobody is saying Bevell hasn't also called good plays, the problem is he sets Wilson up to fail way too often by running on 1st & 2nd downs, and when we don't convert it on the 2nd, it's pretty much a guaranteed pass attempt that the defense knows is happening, making the chance at converting go way down. You cannot call two running plays in a row if you're not running well enough to convert it to a 1st down, or at least get it to 3rd & 1-2. You just can't. It's the main reason our 3rd-down conversion rate is so low.

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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:24 pm 
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RolandDeschain wrote:
hawksfan515 wrote:
BTW, admit it Bevell haters. He's not the problem here. If you think he is, show me some actual evidence...


The number of times we've gone run-run-pass-punt. It makes vanilla look exciting. Look dude, nobody is saying Bevell hasn't also called good plays, the problem is he sets Wilson up to fail way too often by running on 1st & 2nd downs, and when we don't convert it on the 2nd, it's pretty much a guaranteed pass attempt that the defense knows is happening, making the chance at converting go way down. You cannot call two running plays in a row if you're not running well enough to convert it to a 1st down, or at least get it to 3rd & 1-2. You just can't. It's the main reason our 3rd-down conversion rate is so low.


I do think predictability with offensive playcalling has hurt us. Carroll and Bevell aren't doing Wilson any favors by running on 1st and 2nd down, then letting the other team's defense pin back their ears and blitz Russell on 3rd and 6.

Even if it's not a long throw downfield, I'd like to see more 1st down passes, screens and draws to keep the defense honest.

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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:59 pm 
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IMO the 'weird plays' as you describe it or the creative plays that don't quite work are actually good for Bevell's development as an OC and I don't dispute this.

All the difficulty on offense is not Bevell's fault by any means just as Russell Wilson's interceptions weren't all his doing. I do see struggles that make me question Bevell's growth as an OC however.
Given that he's had more than several years experience as an OC in Minny and Seattle and a few years as a QB coach in Green Bay working with Brett Favre one would expect more than what we've seen out of this offense. No doubt Bevell is smart and have worked with elite talents including Brett Favre. He's been a coordinator of a very prolific passing offense in 2009. He's also had the upper hand in regards to being blessed with great running backs both in Minny and Seattle. He currently has QBs who can fling the ball and manage the game (both Wilson and Flynn). He has receivers who have the potential to make plays (Rice, Tate, Edwards).
For some reason we are 7 games into the season without having identified a go-to passing play and we've been unable call plays routinely for our best receiver which is very puzzling given Bevell's coaching pedigree and experience. It's easy to put it all on the rookie QB but unfortunately it's been the rookie who has given us a winning chance on several forth quarter comebacks.

IMO, Bevell's playcalling was better in Minny when compared to this season but then again the talent level was better on that Vikings offense so I give him that.
I have no problem with his occasional scripting of plays to begin games because it seems to work well for this team just as it worked for Childress who mentored Bevell. Problem is that Bevell's playcalling is so much like Childress in that it tends to stagnate the offense with its conservatism and tentativeness. You can see the level of competitiveness on offense trail off after the first quarter and again when we build slim leads. It's as if everyone is afraid to make a mistake including Bevell. Under Childress and Bevell the Vikings had many of these moments during Favre's first half-season in the purple and gold. They eventually found their prolific passing game when Brett Favre put in more work with his receivers and given more freedom to pass on early downs and off play-actions. The main factor was that Favre was very vocal about the conservative playcalling by Childress. Given the drama and the fact Favre was a respected HOF QB he routinely check out of the playcalling without great resistance from Childress. Bevell followed Childress's offensive philosophy but had built a close relationship with Favre stemming from his years as his QB coach in GB which is why there is really no drama between the two.

As for more examples of Bevell's recent struggles I can point out instances where Bevell was late calling in a play to the huddle--not good when you have a rookie QB who may need more time for presnap reads. As an OC you need to be more decisive or better prepared.
Also the predictable playcalling that puts your QB in obvious passing situations is not a recipe for success and counter to the notion that PC and Bevell would like to make it easy for the rookie QB.
I don't expect Bevell to be perfect but he continues to show struggles in areas as an offensive coordinator and his playcalling might possibly be getting worse when compared to his days in Minny.


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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:21 pm 
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I can't believe no one has mentioned the one tendency of Bevell's playcalling that drives me the most insane:

Here are the Seahawks a RUN first team, with a top RB, our biggest weapon, yet on any third down more than 4 yards we go with an EMPTY BACKFIELD!!!!

There aren't enough curse words in the world to describe how I feel about this. I'm not saying we have to run it on every 3rd down, but hey - why not at least keep our best offensive player ON THE FIELD. Or, put Turbin or Washington back there and at least maintain a threat of screen or draw.

Nope. Not us. We prefer to let teams know the pass is coming so they can pin their ears back and come after our rookie QB while our inconsistent and as a whole over matched pass catching group struggles to get separation, or even catch the ball when they do.

Every fan in this forum would agree that the pass catchers are one of, if not the Seahawks biggest weakness. Yet on a 3rd and 5 our coordinator feels the best course of action is to rely, and openly rely on this very group.

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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:41 pm 
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SirTed wrote:
I can't believe no one has mentioned the one tendency of Bevell's playcalling that drives me the most insane:

Here are the Seahawks a RUN first team, with a top RB, our biggest weapon, yet on any third down more than 4 yards we go with an EMPTY BACKFIELD!!!!

There aren't enough curse words in the world to describe how I feel about this. I'm not saying we have to run it on every 3rd down, but hey - why not at least keep our best offensive player ON THE FIELD. Or, put Turbin or Washington back there and at least maintain a threat of screen or draw.

Nope. Not us. We prefer to let teams know the pass is coming so they can pin their ears back and come after our rookie QB while our inconsistent and as a whole over matched pass catching group struggles to get separation, or even catch the ball when they do.

Every fan in this forum would agree that the pass catchers are one of, if not the Seahawks biggest weakness. Yet on a 3rd and 5 our coordinator feels the best course of action is to rely, and openly rely on this very group.


I might be wrong but that those plays were probably what had been working in practice. It's an obvious pass formation that offers Wilson a good read on the defense as to whether he has a quick slant/quick outs (for those who worry that Wilson is too short to throw slants on 3-step drops) or whether he has a good crease for a QB draw. I just don't like this formation on 3rd down in the redzone for obvious reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:33 am 
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vin.couve12 wrote:
I've followed the Eagles since Cunningham and AR is the most pass happy coach there is. He became head over heals in love with the passing game after losing to the greatest show on turf in the 2000 playoffs. He's impatient in game planning, has no feel for the play action and has the nerve to consistently run play action plays even when there is no chance of them running, mismanages the clock and timeouts, and is generally just not the best friend of QBs. AR needs to take some time off of football in general. Maybe a year away at least to spend with his family. That won't change his obsession with passing mania though. Personally, I don't have much respect for his offensive philosophy and wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole, but if like a 60-65% pass ratio consistently with a lot of long developing plays that are hard to protect the QB then he'd be right up your alley.


and in the immediate aftermath of that, what happened? he reached 3 further NFC Championship games and a Superbowl, all without a legitimate receiving game (how many receivers can you name from the early 00s Eagles aside from TO? Todd Pinkston was probably the best).

The real problem with the eagles isn't the fact they pass too much, it's that their QB just flat-out isn't very good at passing. Wilson is like a smaller version of McNabb, they'd probably work perfectly together (though I seriously doubt someone in his 14th year as a HC would accept an OC position - particularly when he's likely to get several HC offers if the Eagles are foolish enough to let him go)


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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:36 am 
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RolandDeschain wrote:
hawksfan515 wrote:
BTW, admit it Bevell haters. He's not the problem here. If you think he is, show me some actual evidence...


The number of times we've gone run-run-pass-punt. It makes vanilla look exciting. Look dude, nobody is saying Bevell hasn't also called good plays, the problem is he sets Wilson up to fail way too often by running on 1st & 2nd downs, and when we don't convert it on the 2nd, it's pretty much a guaranteed pass attempt that the defense knows is happening, making the chance at converting go way down. You cannot call two running plays in a row if you're not running well enough to convert it to a 1st down, or at least get it to 3rd & 1-2. You just can't. It's the main reason our 3rd-down conversion rate is so low.


Our 3rd and short conversion is as poor as our 3rd and long.

Sometimes I feel like Bevell is trying to be "too smart", and calls run plays on 3rd and long and pass plays on 3rd and short, when, if we did the obvious and ran on 3rd and short, we'd be successful (when the run game is averaging 4 yards a rush, why wouldn't you run on anything less than 3rd and 3?)


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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:09 am 
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Russ Willstrong wrote:
SirTed wrote:
I can't believe no one has mentioned the one tendency of Bevell's playcalling that drives me the most insane:

Here are the Seahawks a RUN first team, with a top RB, our biggest weapon, yet on any third down more than 4 yards we go with an EMPTY BACKFIELD!!!!

There aren't enough curse words in the world to describe how I feel about this. I'm not saying we have to run it on every 3rd down, but hey - why not at least keep our best offensive player ON THE FIELD. Or, put Turbin or Washington back there and at least maintain a threat of screen or draw.

Nope. Not us. We prefer to let teams know the pass is coming so they can pin their ears back and come after our rookie QB while our inconsistent and as a whole over matched pass catching group struggles to get separation, or even catch the ball when they do.

Every fan in this forum would agree that the pass catchers are one of, if not the Seahawks biggest weakness. Yet on a 3rd and 5 our coordinator feels the best course of action is to rely, and openly rely on this very group.


I might be wrong but that those plays were probably what had been working in practice. It's an obvious pass formation that offers Wilson a good read on the defense as to whether he has a quick slant/quick outs (for those who worry that Wilson is too short to throw slants on 3-step drops) or whether he has a good crease for a QB draw. I just don't like this formation on 3rd down in the redzone for obvious reasons.


This is an excellent point. The strategy on going empty backfield is to spread the field and allow Wilson to run for the first down if the running lanes open up. The problem with that is the routes that are being called. You want to have routes for your slot receivers that will go to the sidelines that will pull your safeties and linebackers out of the middle of the field to allow Wilson to pick a lane and go for it. What we are getting right now is routes that are allowing those defenders to sit in the middle and wait on Wilson to come to them. Couple that with McQuistan and Carpenter not being consistent with their pass pro and the lanes are not there quite a bit. As much as I like Cable, he has to get these guys working in concert more. Quite a few of our negative plays have come from either of our guards not moving in the same direction as the center or tackle to their side and we have a free rusher in Wilson's face early.

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 Post subject: Re: You blame Bevell when his weird plays don't work
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:33 pm 
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I completely blame Bevell or Pete for many of the offenses issues. We run the ball too much on first and second down and don't run it enough on 3rd down. The 1st and 2nd down run followed my shotgun on 3rd and 3 makes me want to flip out.

I will say Bevell was not the problem vs the 49ers for the most part. Dropped passes plagued the offense and the D couldn't get off the field because of the trap. I think we'll get back to scoring some points this weekend. Keep things opened up.

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