SalishHawkFan
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Yesterday Iposted a hypothetical poll asking who you thought would have given us a better chance to win had we not drafted Russell Wilson - Matt Flynn or Tarvaris Jackson. The results were pretty much what I expected. Over 80% of Seahawk fans on .net thought that Matt Flynn would have given us the best chance to win. Certain people voiced their opinion that the poll was stupid. Some suggested that I'd be comparing Wilson to TJack and showing Wilson was doing worse than TJack therefore somehow winning the argument that we should start Flynn. Those people would like to preemptively strike at that argument because the stats show that TJack over the second half of last season - when the Seahawks finally gelled, WAS playing better than Wilson has the first half of this season. But that is not the reason for the poll. There is something to that argument that is pertinent, however.
If I was to compare any stretch of TJacks last season with Wilsons, the comparison, for the most part, would be apples and oranges. His first 7 games he threw for more yardage than Wilson, was dealing with a far more porous offensive line, did not have a rushing game to complement him and the defense wasn't nearly as good as it is now, yet he passed for more yards per game than Wilson.
So what? As any Wilson defender will tell you, Jackson didn't play 5 games in 25 days. Didn't face a bunch of the top rated defenses during that time. Jackson has shown us all he'll ever be and Wilson has so much upside, yada, yada, yada.
Or I could compare Jacksons last 7 games after the team gelled, as one person posted on that poll. Jackson had a much better stat line than Wilson did when given better pass pro and better rushing attack. Clearly Jackson is doing better than Wilson right?
Again, so what? Who did Jackson face during that period? Wilson's start was vs a far more brutal schedule than Jackson finished up against.
No, the only comparisons that would carry any water at all would be games against common opponents and if you go there you find the two QB's are pretty much a wash. Against the Niners and Cards Jacksons team puts more points on the board, it's true, but look at each aspect of those games and you find Marshawn rushed for about the same, the defense gave up about the same amount of yards rushing and passing, TJacks stats are clearly similar to Wilsons. The scoring was greater, but there's no correlation between that and Wilson vs Jacksons play. They literally are a wash.
No, the reason for my hypothetical poll was to point out something more important to .net than who is better Flynn or Wilson. What I wanted to show was the way Wilson supporters are treating Flynn supporters and point out that it is detrimental to this website for a small, fanatic group of Wilson supporters to lambast those who believe Flynn would have done betterj to the degree to which they are doing so.
Over 80% of the people on this website think Flynn would have been an upgrade over TJack. Yes, the stats do show that Wilson has at best been a wash with TJack. Those stats are only partially pertinent, apples to oranges as I've just said, but the fact remains the same, this offense under Wilson has not improved over the offense we had last year under TJack.
And over 80% of the responders to that poll believe that Flynn WOULD have done better than TJack.
Yet instead of respecting their opinions and arguing with logic as to why the majority of the fanbase should be patient and take a wait and see attitude when they feel that Flynn would have done better, this small group of regular posters on .net who support Wilson - on faith, I might add, because they BELIEVE Wilson will improve and they BELIEVE is height won't be a factor - would rather alienate the majority of the fans on this board by referring to them as "stupid" or worse.
Here's what I've seen on here in just the last couple days:
Just in the poll alone:
It's not a crappy logic trap to recognize that this offense is doing worse than they were last year. They're rated 30th overall in offense and 31st in passing offense. This offense IS worse than it was when TJack led it. That's not "crappy logic trap", that's called a FACT. The poster above was being insulting to the general fan bases intelligence.
When over 80% of the forum believes Flynn would have given us a better chance to win than TJack and those same people SEE that the offense is doing worse than it did last year under TJack, then you'd better have better ways to acknowledge the legitimacy of their conclusions than to insult anyone who dares point out the obvious. If you can't win with an intelligent, well presented rationale of why people should be patient and all you do is put them down, then guess what? You'll drive them away.
This place will stop being the place where people go to find intelligent analysis of their favorite team. It'll just be the place to go if you like troll wars.
This is why people who think Flynn should have been the starter are so passive around here:
"purely my opinon and only my opinion" Translation: DON'T FLAME ME YOU F$#@!ING A@#$$%S!
Because that's what certain members of this website have become - F$#@!ING A@#$$%S! in the way they rabidly attack anyone who thinks differently than they do.
You've become Wilson Fascists. You know who you are. Guess what? So does everyone else on this board.
But it's literally worse than that. In another thread THIS happened:
BANNED.
No, I'm not talking about the troll who came on here the other day dissing Sherman. I'm talking about some poor fellow who only survived long enough to make 5 posts before a Mod banned him. This event, actually, is what prompted the hypothetical poll to begin with. The guy made the mistake of being Pro-Flynn. What he said in his first post wasn't trollish at all. The response was that the Wilson Police got up in his face and were very insulting. Naturally, the guy didn't respond well to people getting all up in his S%^& for making what most people would think was a pretty inoffensive comment to begin with. He didn't realize that being politically incorrect would not be tolerated here anymore. Having an opinion that differed from the Mighty Wise Ones turned into a bannable offense. I'm still trying to find that thread. When I do I'll edit this post.
You guys have gone overboard in your rabid defense of Russell Wilson.
Hell, the "official" debate Wilson thread only made it EIGHT posts before someone on the Wilson Police thought it should be locked:
Put down the fans as "comical" and demand anyone not toeing the line have their thread locked down. For saying what? For pointing out that:
Dude had to throw in the Obligatory I Love Russ ™ remark before he even said anything just so he could sidestep being labeled a "hater".
You guys love to label people who have a different opinion than yours. Sound familiar? Fascists behave that way. Maybe Flynn supporters should call themselves the Flynn Defamation League. Look at the very first response to that thread:
You guys who've formed the Wilson Police include some of the very best posters on .net. Yet it is safe to say that when it comes to Wilson, you've lost all objectivity - and manners - and have become trolls yourselves. This site deserves better than that. It's readers deserve more respect than they're getting.
When over 80% believe Flynn would have been better than TJack, how many of them do you think are frustrated waiting for Wilson to get past his rookie learning curve while the offense flounders? Believing in their hearts that Flynn would have done better than TJack and seeing with their eyes that the offense is doing worse now than it was before? Even if the two are a wash, TJack and Wilson so far, even if all of us understand that Wilson MIGHT have a better upside than Tjack, who was never going to be better, there are over 80% of the people here who honestly think Flynn would have done better than TJAck and how many of those do you think harbor the thought that he'd be doing better than Wilson right now?
How many of those people are you willing to insult and ban and silence and turn into permanent lurkers, too afraid to voice their opinions because they KNOW how they'll be treated if they do.
Just because you disagree doesn't give you the right to treat people this way. You're all better than that. You're all capable of making logical arguments.
Two things are causing this:
First and foremost: Charlie Whitehurst. yeah, that's right, this is mostly Charlie Whitehursts fault. The same people who are getting out of hand in their responses to anyone who wants to see Flynn start are doing so because they got so fed up last year hearing how CW should start. They're taking out their anger on Flynn supporters, many of whom could care less that a handful of trolls kept yakking about CW.
This situation is about as different from last years as how TJack played last year is different than how Wilson's played this year. LET. IT. GO.
Secondly: When the Wilson Police DOES try to make logical arguments why Flynn supporters are mistaken, (note I said mistaken, not stupid, trollish, worthy of banning, etc.) it always goes into this endless loop that comes down to 'he's a rookie, you have to be patient, you can't expect him to do it all". It's like most of you fail to see that's the whole point of the Flynn supporters. Whether they believe Wilson will someday be our QBOTF or not, Flynn supporters do not believe they should be patient waiting for it TODAY.
Flynn supporters whole belief system is predicated upon the idea that you WIN NOW and that Flynn gives you the best chance. If Wilson isn't an upgrade over TJack - RIGHT NOW, screw the future - and you believe that Flynn IS an upgrade over TJack ( and over 80% of the people on here do), then it seems logical to Flynn supporters that it was a huge mistake to have started Wilson in the first place.
WIN NOW vs build a dynasty. That's the REAL argument that the Wilson supporters refuse to engage in. It's because they can't win that argument with a Seattle fan base and they know it. In 2005 we thought we had something that was going to last. Two players is all it took to derail that dynasty. Hutch and Alexanders foot. Seattle fans know all to well not to buy into promises of tomorrow. Dreams, hopes, wishes don't come true in Seattle. I can name two players that could derail this dream of a dynasty: Lynch and Thomas. Turbin is good, but he's no Lynch. Sherman is awesome, but Thomas is something beyond special. He is the glue that holds that secondary together. You lose his speed back there and suddenly our CB's are exposed deep. You lose his incredible instincts for the ball and suddenly our secondary isn't all that anymore.
Or maybe the injury plague that hit Holmgrens offensive line hits our defensive line instead. I took this quote from another thread:
Is it realistic to expect that string of good health to continue?
Flynn supporters have a legitimate reason to want to WIN NOW. We have a Super Bowl level defense. We have an elite rushing game. All we need to put us there is even just an adequate passing game. Telling them to be patient because Wilson is a rookie is not going to make any sense to them is it? That's not a logical way to win an argument.
So Wilson supporters have resorted to treating Flynn supporters like they're calling for Whitehurst or something. And being insulting. And banning people. to the point they've intimidated most people into silence or having to come out with caveats before expressing their opinions (I love Russel Wilson, but...) (purely my opinion and only my opinion, but...). Well, I guess that means you 'win' the Flynn/Wilson debate, whatever that means. I always thought the purpose of this place was to talk about our Hawks and respect that we are all Hawk fans on here. But even the TJ/CW debate never got this bad.
I'm pretty thick skinned. I don't give a crap when people attack me. That's why I'm not afraid to make this post or make that "stupid" hypothetical poll. (and yes, I hate hypothetical polls, they ARE stupid IMO, but you might see me make a snarky comment, you'll never see me call people stupid.) But it is rude and ill-mannered and shows a lack of substance in your defense of why we should risk this season to let Wilson develop on the field immediately instead of more slowly on the bench when you expect every Flynn supporter to be as thick skinned as I am.
And when you start banning people who were only reacting to being attacked for non trollish posts to begin with, you've gone too far. And when you can't make a post supporting Flynn because you fear the backlash, you've gone too far.
It's not just anybody behaving this way. If it were just the usual rude guy who seldom posts here or doesn't post a lot of things of substance, that would be one thing. It's the guys who are the heart and soul of this place who are doing this.
That's got to stop guys. YOU"RE ALL BETTER THAN THAT. This place is a great place.
So I hope my hypothetical poll clues you in to just how many people you are bullying, makes you stop and think and motivates you to start thinking about how the other side sees things and make logical arguments why they should accept Wilson over Flynn. Maybe you could explain why starting Wilson isn't really risking this season for the future. Or why you think the future is so bright we all gotta wear shades if we just wait to see if Wilson develops.
Because, man oh man, after the way you guys have been treating people, I sure wouldn't want to be you if Wilson turns out to be a bust, Flynn walks and this team never gets over the hump. Or Wilson DOES become our QBOTF, the defense gets plagued by injuries, Lynch goes down or for whatever reason this team never gets over the hump anyways.
Cuz years will pass before you hear the end of it.
If I was to compare any stretch of TJacks last season with Wilsons, the comparison, for the most part, would be apples and oranges. His first 7 games he threw for more yardage than Wilson, was dealing with a far more porous offensive line, did not have a rushing game to complement him and the defense wasn't nearly as good as it is now, yet he passed for more yards per game than Wilson.
So what? As any Wilson defender will tell you, Jackson didn't play 5 games in 25 days. Didn't face a bunch of the top rated defenses during that time. Jackson has shown us all he'll ever be and Wilson has so much upside, yada, yada, yada.
Or I could compare Jacksons last 7 games after the team gelled, as one person posted on that poll. Jackson had a much better stat line than Wilson did when given better pass pro and better rushing attack. Clearly Jackson is doing better than Wilson right?
Again, so what? Who did Jackson face during that period? Wilson's start was vs a far more brutal schedule than Jackson finished up against.
No, the only comparisons that would carry any water at all would be games against common opponents and if you go there you find the two QB's are pretty much a wash. Against the Niners and Cards Jacksons team puts more points on the board, it's true, but look at each aspect of those games and you find Marshawn rushed for about the same, the defense gave up about the same amount of yards rushing and passing, TJacks stats are clearly similar to Wilsons. The scoring was greater, but there's no correlation between that and Wilson vs Jacksons play. They literally are a wash.
No, the reason for my hypothetical poll was to point out something more important to .net than who is better Flynn or Wilson. What I wanted to show was the way Wilson supporters are treating Flynn supporters and point out that it is detrimental to this website for a small, fanatic group of Wilson supporters to lambast those who believe Flynn would have done betterj to the degree to which they are doing so.
Over 80% of the people on this website think Flynn would have been an upgrade over TJack. Yes, the stats do show that Wilson has at best been a wash with TJack. Those stats are only partially pertinent, apples to oranges as I've just said, but the fact remains the same, this offense under Wilson has not improved over the offense we had last year under TJack.
And over 80% of the responders to that poll believe that Flynn WOULD have done better than TJack.
Yet instead of respecting their opinions and arguing with logic as to why the majority of the fanbase should be patient and take a wait and see attitude when they feel that Flynn would have done better, this small group of regular posters on .net who support Wilson - on faith, I might add, because they BELIEVE Wilson will improve and they BELIEVE is height won't be a factor - would rather alienate the majority of the fans on this board by referring to them as "stupid" or worse.
Here's what I've seen on here in just the last couple days:
Just in the poll alone:
It's not a crappy logic trap to recognize that this offense is doing worse than they were last year. They're rated 30th overall in offense and 31st in passing offense. This offense IS worse than it was when TJack led it. That's not "crappy logic trap", that's called a FACT. The poster above was being insulting to the general fan bases intelligence.
When over 80% of the forum believes Flynn would have given us a better chance to win than TJack and those same people SEE that the offense is doing worse than it did last year under TJack, then you'd better have better ways to acknowledge the legitimacy of their conclusions than to insult anyone who dares point out the obvious. If you can't win with an intelligent, well presented rationale of why people should be patient and all you do is put them down, then guess what? You'll drive them away.
This place will stop being the place where people go to find intelligent analysis of their favorite team. It'll just be the place to go if you like troll wars.
This is why people who think Flynn should have been the starter are so passive around here:
"purely my opinon and only my opinion" Translation: DON'T FLAME ME YOU F$#@!ING A@#$$%S!
Because that's what certain members of this website have become - F$#@!ING A@#$$%S! in the way they rabidly attack anyone who thinks differently than they do.
You've become Wilson Fascists. You know who you are. Guess what? So does everyone else on this board.
But it's literally worse than that. In another thread THIS happened:
BANNED.
No, I'm not talking about the troll who came on here the other day dissing Sherman. I'm talking about some poor fellow who only survived long enough to make 5 posts before a Mod banned him. This event, actually, is what prompted the hypothetical poll to begin with. The guy made the mistake of being Pro-Flynn. What he said in his first post wasn't trollish at all. The response was that the Wilson Police got up in his face and were very insulting. Naturally, the guy didn't respond well to people getting all up in his S%^& for making what most people would think was a pretty inoffensive comment to begin with. He didn't realize that being politically incorrect would not be tolerated here anymore. Having an opinion that differed from the Mighty Wise Ones turned into a bannable offense. I'm still trying to find that thread. When I do I'll edit this post.
You guys have gone overboard in your rabid defense of Russell Wilson.
Hell, the "official" debate Wilson thread only made it EIGHT posts before someone on the Wilson Police thought it should be locked:
Put down the fans as "comical" and demand anyone not toeing the line have their thread locked down. For saying what? For pointing out that:
Dude had to throw in the Obligatory I Love Russ ™ remark before he even said anything just so he could sidestep being labeled a "hater".
You guys love to label people who have a different opinion than yours. Sound familiar? Fascists behave that way. Maybe Flynn supporters should call themselves the Flynn Defamation League. Look at the very first response to that thread:
You guys who've formed the Wilson Police include some of the very best posters on .net. Yet it is safe to say that when it comes to Wilson, you've lost all objectivity - and manners - and have become trolls yourselves. This site deserves better than that. It's readers deserve more respect than they're getting.
When over 80% believe Flynn would have been better than TJack, how many of them do you think are frustrated waiting for Wilson to get past his rookie learning curve while the offense flounders? Believing in their hearts that Flynn would have done better than TJack and seeing with their eyes that the offense is doing worse now than it was before? Even if the two are a wash, TJack and Wilson so far, even if all of us understand that Wilson MIGHT have a better upside than Tjack, who was never going to be better, there are over 80% of the people here who honestly think Flynn would have done better than TJAck and how many of those do you think harbor the thought that he'd be doing better than Wilson right now?
How many of those people are you willing to insult and ban and silence and turn into permanent lurkers, too afraid to voice their opinions because they KNOW how they'll be treated if they do.
Just because you disagree doesn't give you the right to treat people this way. You're all better than that. You're all capable of making logical arguments.
Two things are causing this:
First and foremost: Charlie Whitehurst. yeah, that's right, this is mostly Charlie Whitehursts fault. The same people who are getting out of hand in their responses to anyone who wants to see Flynn start are doing so because they got so fed up last year hearing how CW should start. They're taking out their anger on Flynn supporters, many of whom could care less that a handful of trolls kept yakking about CW.
This situation is about as different from last years as how TJack played last year is different than how Wilson's played this year. LET. IT. GO.
Secondly: When the Wilson Police DOES try to make logical arguments why Flynn supporters are mistaken, (note I said mistaken, not stupid, trollish, worthy of banning, etc.) it always goes into this endless loop that comes down to 'he's a rookie, you have to be patient, you can't expect him to do it all". It's like most of you fail to see that's the whole point of the Flynn supporters. Whether they believe Wilson will someday be our QBOTF or not, Flynn supporters do not believe they should be patient waiting for it TODAY.
Flynn supporters whole belief system is predicated upon the idea that you WIN NOW and that Flynn gives you the best chance. If Wilson isn't an upgrade over TJack - RIGHT NOW, screw the future - and you believe that Flynn IS an upgrade over TJack ( and over 80% of the people on here do), then it seems logical to Flynn supporters that it was a huge mistake to have started Wilson in the first place.
WIN NOW vs build a dynasty. That's the REAL argument that the Wilson supporters refuse to engage in. It's because they can't win that argument with a Seattle fan base and they know it. In 2005 we thought we had something that was going to last. Two players is all it took to derail that dynasty. Hutch and Alexanders foot. Seattle fans know all to well not to buy into promises of tomorrow. Dreams, hopes, wishes don't come true in Seattle. I can name two players that could derail this dream of a dynasty: Lynch and Thomas. Turbin is good, but he's no Lynch. Sherman is awesome, but Thomas is something beyond special. He is the glue that holds that secondary together. You lose his speed back there and suddenly our CB's are exposed deep. You lose his incredible instincts for the ball and suddenly our secondary isn't all that anymore.
Or maybe the injury plague that hit Holmgrens offensive line hits our defensive line instead. I took this quote from another thread:
Is it realistic to expect that string of good health to continue?
Flynn supporters have a legitimate reason to want to WIN NOW. We have a Super Bowl level defense. We have an elite rushing game. All we need to put us there is even just an adequate passing game. Telling them to be patient because Wilson is a rookie is not going to make any sense to them is it? That's not a logical way to win an argument.
So Wilson supporters have resorted to treating Flynn supporters like they're calling for Whitehurst or something. And being insulting. And banning people. to the point they've intimidated most people into silence or having to come out with caveats before expressing their opinions (I love Russel Wilson, but...) (purely my opinion and only my opinion, but...). Well, I guess that means you 'win' the Flynn/Wilson debate, whatever that means. I always thought the purpose of this place was to talk about our Hawks and respect that we are all Hawk fans on here. But even the TJ/CW debate never got this bad.
I'm pretty thick skinned. I don't give a crap when people attack me. That's why I'm not afraid to make this post or make that "stupid" hypothetical poll. (and yes, I hate hypothetical polls, they ARE stupid IMO, but you might see me make a snarky comment, you'll never see me call people stupid.) But it is rude and ill-mannered and shows a lack of substance in your defense of why we should risk this season to let Wilson develop on the field immediately instead of more slowly on the bench when you expect every Flynn supporter to be as thick skinned as I am.
And when you start banning people who were only reacting to being attacked for non trollish posts to begin with, you've gone too far. And when you can't make a post supporting Flynn because you fear the backlash, you've gone too far.
It's not just anybody behaving this way. If it were just the usual rude guy who seldom posts here or doesn't post a lot of things of substance, that would be one thing. It's the guys who are the heart and soul of this place who are doing this.
That's got to stop guys. YOU"RE ALL BETTER THAN THAT. This place is a great place.
So I hope my hypothetical poll clues you in to just how many people you are bullying, makes you stop and think and motivates you to start thinking about how the other side sees things and make logical arguments why they should accept Wilson over Flynn. Maybe you could explain why starting Wilson isn't really risking this season for the future. Or why you think the future is so bright we all gotta wear shades if we just wait to see if Wilson develops.
Because, man oh man, after the way you guys have been treating people, I sure wouldn't want to be you if Wilson turns out to be a bust, Flynn walks and this team never gets over the hump. Or Wilson DOES become our QBOTF, the defense gets plagued by injuries, Lynch goes down or for whatever reason this team never gets over the hump anyways.
Cuz years will pass before you hear the end of it.
Still wondering where this post was a week ago.
