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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:59 pm 
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I feel sorry for your keyboard. Those poor keys. That poor space bar.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:43 pm 
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Zebulon Dak wrote:
I love that rooting for the starting QB to succeed is a bad thing now.

I love rooting for the starting Quarterback to succeed, but I don't root for him to make mistakes.
The fact that there were key passes that got dropped by his Receivers is the one reason that I don't blame this loss on Wilson.
The type of Defense tha 49rs play, looks for tendencies of the QB's, and plan on ways to neutralize him, and for the secong half they did exactly that.
Deep balls are fantastic when they find their targets, but sometimes you have to take advantage of the holes in the Defense on short passes, and that seems to be his area of weakness.
Hell, it worked great for Smith, and he's nothing great, but he played for whatever the Seahawks Defense let him have, plus, Gore having his way only opened up even more options for him.

I don't know if Bevel screwed up RW with his game plan, but 20 yards passing in the second half by Wilson is just poor execution by someone ,and the fact that good QB's will put the team on their back, he just didn't show that he could do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:58 pm 
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No, no, we can't possibly give credit to the 49ers defense for playing at the elite level they have been for the past 2 season, no way!!!!

Can't put the team on his back? did you miss the NE game, bro?

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:30 pm 
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SalishHawkFan wrote:
It's not a crappy logic trap to recognize that this offense is doing worse than they were last year. They're rated 30th overall in offense and 31st in passing offense. This offense IS worse than it was when TJack led it. That's not "crappy logic trap", that's called a FACT.

The bolded isn't a fact – it's just how you choose to interpret the stats. Sorting by YPG and saying that's the order of quality offenses isn't very useful to me. Base numbers like YPG ignore things like scheme and playcalling that have diminished Wilson's productivity. By DVOA, the 2011 Seahawks had the #22 offense (#21 passing, #14 rushing) and the 2012 Seahawks through week 6 had the #22 offense (#20 passing, #11 rushing). The 2012 team's 3.2% passing offense DVOA is better than the 2011 team's 0.1% passing offense DVOA. It's reasonable to argue that this year's offense has been more efficient than last year's, and a better scheme with better playcalling might have produced better raw numbers like YPG and PPG.

SalishHawkFan wrote:
WIN NOW vs build a dynasty. That's the REAL argument that the Wilson supporters refuse to engage in. It's because they can't win that argument with a Seattle fan base and they know it.

You're missing the point that many people don't see this as a “win now vs. build a dynasty” debate. I believe that this year's Seahawks team has a better chance to win the Super Bowl with Wilson than it would have with Flynn as the starting QB. The better question is why do you think Flynn gives the team a better chance to win now? Is there something more than the Detroit game where the Packers' receivers ran through the Lions' swiss cheese secondary and the moderate contract our FO gave Flynn after no one else (including his former OC) gave him the big contact he was looking for?


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:57 pm 
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Just to add a few more stats to dispute your claim that Jackson was better than Wilson:

2011 Jackson: 5.1 ANY/A, 6.9 Y/A, 11.4 Y/C, 60.2 Comp%, 79.2 Rating, 2.9 INT%, 8.5 Sack%

2012 Wilson: 5.2 ANY/A, 7.0 Y/A, 11.8 Y/C, 59.4 Comp%, 79.5 Rating, 4.0 INT%, 7.4 Sack%

The numbers are almost identical across the board, but they don't consider that this year's offensive scheme has been much more restricting on the quarterback, which means that Wilson's stats are deflated compared to what they would look like in a more pass-friendly offense.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:03 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:06 pm 
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jackson was far from a rookie last year. in fact, he and everyone else in the world knew it would be his last year ever unless he did something amazing. it could be argued that a similar scenario exists for wilson. but that argument wouldn't hold water in my opinion. i'd be interested to see stats of jackson's rookie year versus wilson's. actually, no, I wouldn't. I've done WAY too much reading already tonight.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:13 pm 
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Comparing Tjack to RW is redundant.Two different QB's one is a playmaker and a rookie and the other is a 7 year vet scared to make a decision.RW has won more last minute comebacks than Tjack ever will.RW believes in himself while Tjack needs to have his diaper changed for him.I could go on.......Stats are for record books and bean counters who know nothing about how to make those numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:26 pm 
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It's amazing how many people think this thread is about comparing TJack to Wilson.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:27 pm 
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Has no mobility? I think even Flynn would admit that.. to say Flynn has mobility and that was something the wilson supporters made up is WEAK SAUCE..

wow.. Flynn is a great back up. maybe more .. but you know what you don't get to decide that...


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:37 pm 
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This thread is about comparing fantasy to reality.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:43 pm 
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I wish we lived in fantasy land.. I'd be the head coach.. i'd start Flynn and he be everything OP thought he is..

BUT i don't - I just get to coach my son's flag football team.. DAMN i did something wrong in a previous life..


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:43 pm 
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jewhawk wrote:
SalishHawkFan wrote:
WIN NOW vs build a dynasty. That's the REAL argument that the Wilson supporters refuse to engage in. It's because they can't win that argument with a Seattle fan base and they know it.

You're missing the point that many people don't see this as a “win now vs. build a dynasty” debate. I believe that this year's Seahawks team has a better chance to win the Super Bowl with Wilson than it would have with Flynn as the starting QB. The better question is why do you think Flynn gives the team a better chance to win now? Is there something more than the Detroit game where the Packers' receivers ran through the Lions' swiss cheese secondary and the moderate contract our FO gave Flynn after no one else (including his former OC) gave him the big contact he was looking for?


:13: jewhawk

Wilson gives a better chance to win now....it's why the experts...coaching staff decided to start him week 1. Wilson is more experienced.....his college career had him more ready to play than the 9 years of bench warming Flynn has had. 15 starts in 9 years is not "experience"....it means you are not starting material.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:55 pm 
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I think one thing people are forgetting in all of this mess is that we are no longer in the Holmgren era in Seattle. Coming from the Green Bay school of QB's, Hasslebeck and Flynn would have been great in the Holmgren era and offense, but this is no longer that time. When they tried to insert Hass into Pete's system the results were less than desirable, and at times down right ugly. When they moved onto T-Jack things did improve. Maybe not where the fans would have liked it to be, but it was an improvement none the less. Perhaps the reason Flynn is sitting on the bench is because he is not as good a fit for Pete Carroll's system? Just a shot in the dark here and I'm most likely talking to a wall, but if you think about it, it makes sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:54 am 
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SalishHawkFan wrote:
Original post


Please explain why this wall of text needed a new thread. I suggest starting another thread to do so.


Last edited by AbsolutNET on Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wall of text


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:13 am 
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SalishHawkFan wrote:
It's amazing how many people think this thread is about comparing TJack to Wilson.

That's because it is. Much of your post revolves around this line of thought:
SalishHawkFan wrote:
Flynn supporters whole belief system is predicated upon the idea that you WIN NOW and that Flynn gives you the best chance. If Wilson isn't an upgrade over TJack - RIGHT NOW, screw the future - and you believe that Flynn IS an upgrade over TJack ( and over 80% of the people on here do), then it seems logical to Flynn supporters that it was a huge mistake to have started Wilson in the first place.

Which is logical if you agree with your three premises. That
1) Wilson isn't an upgrade over Jackson;
2) Flynn is an upgrade over Jackson; and
3) Winning now is more important than building for the future.

The problem is you want to assume that points (1) and (2) are truths and have a debate about (3). But many of the Wilson supporters actually agree with point (3), but disagree with (1) and/or (2).

A better question than your hypothetical “Flynn or Jackson” would be to ask people to rank the three QBs in order of how well you think they would perform this year only:
a) Wilson > Flynn > Jackson
b) Wilson > Jackson > Flynn
c) Flynn > Wilson > Jackson
d) Flynn > Jackson > Wilson
e) Jackson > Wilson > Flynn
f) Jackson > Flynn > Wilson

If that were the question, you and I both know the overwhelming majority would have voted for (a). FWIW, I would have voted for (b) in that scenario.

SalishHawkFan wrote:
No, the reason for my hypothetical poll was to point out something more important to .net than who is better Flynn or Wilson. What I wanted to show was the way Wilson supporters are treating Flynn supporters and point out that it is detrimental to this website for a small, fanatic group of Wilson supporters to lambast those who believe Flynn would have done betterj to the degree to which they are doing so.

If that was your main point, you could have just said “Hey guys, there's no need to be such extreme a-holes to anyone who has a different opinion from yours.” There would have been no need for the hypothetical because the hypothetical doesn't have anything to do with people trolling or lambasting others. The point of the hypothetical was to strengthen the Flynn supporters' arguments with the logic that “if Wilson isn't better than Jackson, and Flynn would be better than Jackson, then by that logic Flynn would have been better than Wilson.” But it ignores the point that most of the people who voted for Flynn over Jackson in your hypothetical would have also voted for Wilson over Jackson, and many would have voted for Wilson over Flynn.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:21 am 
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No, your last thread was still a crappy logic trap.

And now there's a small band of fanatical Wilson supporters? You're entering into disheveled, awkwardly sweaty paranoia here. I know this thread was packed with logic, facts, and rational thought (or three concepts people overemphasize to prop up their subjective opinion), but I like lollipops and FIRE. GO RUSSELL.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:50 am 
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This thread, just like your original poll thread, was ABSOLUTELY necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:51 am 
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Somebody forward this to Coach so he can know what he needs to do next weekend.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:07 pm 
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SalishHawkFan wrote:
T-Sizzle wrote:
Its one thing to be a Flynn supporter, its another to continue to call for it OVER and OVER and OVER again when its clear the direction the TEAM wants to go. Flynn guys need to drop it and get behind our QBOTF and QB of NOW.

I totally understand where you're coming from. but when that many people believe Flynn would have been an upgrade you've got to expect to hear it over and over and over again. The people leading the charge aren't going to quiet down until they've been given reason to. Calling them stupid, banning people over the smallest excuse, giving the same "Wilson's a rookie, be patient" excuses aren't gonna fly. Either Wilson improves on the field, which will shut everyone up, or you've got to go with the fact that it's kinda too late now. But it's not too late.

Which means Wilson supporters should be thick skinned about it. Afterall, if you're truly as confident that the guy will be our QBOTF, then what do you have to worry about? What prompts this overreaction to what is truly a legitimate sentiment? Just back off.

You're not going to silence the calls anyways. Only Wilson can do that.


Wilson hasn't been "bad" enough to warrant switching QB's. We have been in every game this year and probably all of them or all but one was because of the defensive play. Still that being said Wilson is a rookie and his numbers are actually not that bad. Future HOF QB's have started much worse, and hell success wasn't even supposed to happen this early. I still think 8-8 is the most fair record any true Seahawk fan could want out of this team, this year. Anything more is overachieving. Just my two cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:10 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Before the pre season my opinion was to at least start Flynn for a year and let Wilson soak it in from the bench. Well, that's not what PC and Co. decided to do, they decided that Wilson "won" the starting QB position (Why PC says that it still a competition is beyond my comprehension). Am I happy with their decision? I don't really know, I am not them and I don't know what they know. Do I wish that they would have rolled with Flynn for a year, yes! All of this wasn't even the question until we picked up Wilson in the draft and PC declared it a competition between 3 qbs. Before Wilson, I think the majority of us were excited to pick up Flynn and there wasn't really a debate who should start, Flynn or TJack!? Seems like most of us were all in on Flynn. Wilson came in and impressed the coaches and the majority of the fans. Now that Wilson is our starting QB and when the team loses, there are those that point the finger at Wilson and say "we should have started Flynn" or "bench Wilson and start Flynn". Would it have been the same comments if We lost with Flynn as our starter, "We should bench Flynn and start RW."? Probably!

I don't think Flynn would have got us to 4-3 with this O-Line. Wilson has kept plays going when under pressure, whether it be with his legs or just getting away enough to throw the ball away instead of losing yard with a sack. With the way our O-Line is suspect at times, I do not feel that Flynn would have been as successful, but that is not a fact it is just what I believe. As far as the Niners game, If the receiver wouldn't have dropped passes, and some of those passes couldn't have been more perfectly thrown/placed, I am sure we would have won that game and this OP would not have even started...well at least until the next Seahawk loss. Last thoughts: I am still not comfortable with the fact that we started Wilson over Flynn, but I WILL support my coach and my team with their decision and HOPE for the best possible outcome of the season.

Cheers to all! Go Hawks! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:48 pm 
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I haven't even been able to watch this game yet due to out of town work so no real RW v Flynn notes to apply here. will be catching this soon.

I'm with the minority who felt Flynn do a year while RW took time to work his game with tjia hawks org (just seemed like the natural route really with a rook).

Last game was his breakout best (imo) finally, sounds as if this one is going to be depressing to watch. man I wanted a W over the 9rs.

This loss is why I and many felt the AZ/STL losses were so crucial. Those were winnable I feel.

well they come to our house soon, little paybacks in order at least


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:27 pm 
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If balls weren't dropped, we wouldn't even have this thread. After NE, most people accepted Wilson as the starting QB for the rest of the season. We face probably the best defense and have multiple key drops, and the calls for Wilson's head begins again.

I was a Flynn supporter all throughout the offseason and preseason, but Wilson's shown me that he's a very capable starting QB. You say he needs more polishing than Flynn, but there's no way you could know that. The way he studies and strives to get better makes me confident, we won't have to wait too long to see consistent success. If you ask me, Flynn might learn a thing or two about how the kid prepares.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:26 am 
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So a setup poll and then an additional thread just to say, "Quit being mean to me, goshdarnit!"

Outstanding.

If you want to know why you tend to get some vitriolic reactions when you post your hundredth "Flynn is so dreamy and tons better than Wilson" thread of the day, this is why:

Your posts on the QB situation are intellectually dishonest. You base your arguments on false premises and then support them with logical fallacies. And then when people point out those fallacies, you ignore those posts and continue asking, "Why won't people address these points?!"

Let's start with your favorite approach. You like to argue that Flynn should be starting because he clearly beat out Jackson in training camp/preseason, and Wilson hasn't represented an improvement over Jackson. Ergo, in your world, that means Flynn is better than Wilson.

You argument that Wilson isn't an improvement over Jackson was based - at least 5 games in - on the idea that Jackson threw for 60 more yards per game than Wilson on average, and you somehow equated those 60 more yards with being a better or more capable QB. When it was pointed out to you that Jackson had many, many more attempts (10 more per game on average) and that the Seahawks had gone to a no-huddle offense early in the 2011 season, you ignored it. In fact, you instead turned it around as an excuse for Jackson, suggesting that he had a harder task in putting up those extra yards because he had no running game (rather than acknowledging that there was no run game precisely BECAUSE the team was going pass-happy).

It's no surprise that you've abandoned that particular approach since Wilson threw for 293 against the Patriots, now claiming that Jackson and Wilson are essentially on par. But even that claim isn't based in reality. It doesn't account for what the coaches are asking Wilson to do. It doesn't account for the quality of opponents.

"But I'm not talking about comparing those two QBs!" you say. You say, instead, that your point is about the treatment of Flynn supporters. But what you fail to note is that the treatment that you've seen in response to your posts, at least, has been in response to your repeated comparisons between Wilson and Jackson. I don't have anything against you, and I don't have anything against someone who thinks Flynn would play better than Wilson (even though I think they'd be wrong). What I do have an issue with is the specious arguments you've continued to make.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:28 am 
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i knew there was a reason i joined and enjoy reading these forum threads... good points from both sides.. what may or may not have already been said in here is, comparing wilsons stats the TJacks up to this point in fantasy land is one thing, they're there in black and white to look at, from what i understand they're similar... but in the real world there are too many intangibles to base a realistic arguement..

1.. already stated - TJack had far more pass attempts
2.. a known fact and even admitted by the coach, they have restricted wilsons playbook to move him along slowly, so of course his completions are down, so are his attempts.
3. we have a real running game , nuf said
4...dropped passes, penalties, missed opportunities has killed wilsons stats, and i mean killed..

has he made mistakes, yes, will he continue to make mistakes yes, every QB in the league makes mistakes , bad reads, poor throws every game, manning's , brady, rogers, they all do...

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Last edited by hawker84 on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:32 am 
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bottom line, is wilson is our starter, the coaches have bet the future on him, as a rookie he needs time to learn and become confident in the current system... the more we go along, the more the playbook gets open, the more opportunities he's going to have to make plays, the more our offense comes to life...

while i respect the opinions of the Flynn supporters, this arguement needs to come to a hault, get on board with our starting QB and let's talk about how he can improve, and what the coaching staff needs to do to see that he does.. this is wasted energy at this point, nothing is going to change any time soon... we understand you think Flynn gives us a better chance.. doesn't matter , wilson's our starter....

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:37 am 
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Zebulon Dak wrote:
Shane Falco wrote:
Zebulon Dak wrote:

RW is the starting QB and I'm not responsible for that decision. Sorry if you don't like it but there's nothing any of us can do about it.


Again, Exactly. How many times has that card been played?


That's not a card. It is in fact the way of things.


The "he is the starter" line is stale. Okay, and the coach decided to run a fade route in the red zone when we were running for 7 yards a pop. Coming here and bitching that we should have ran has no bearing on what the coach was doing. Thus by your line of logic, it is the coach's decision, you have no influence on it and thus you shouldn't be posting here. Does this make sense?

This is a forum where people "can" voice their displeasure. I'm not solidly in one camp or the other, just pointing out the flawed logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:39 am 
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hawker84 wrote:
bottom line, is wilson is our starter, the coaches have bet the future on him, as a rookie he needs time to learn and become confident in the current system... the more we go along, the more the playbook gets open, the more opportunities he's going to have to make plays, the more our offense comes to life...

while i respect the opinions of the Flynn supporters, this arguement needs to come to a hault, get on board with our starting QB and let's talk about how he can improve, and what the coaching staff needs to do to see that he does.. this is wasted energy at this point, nothing is going to change any time soon... we understand you think Flynn gives us a better chance.. doesn't matter , wilson's our starter....


based on the this logic that you have no influence on what the coaches do, why "should" anyone debate anything if we have no bearing (which we don't)?

Apart from booing or not booing at the games, this forum contributes zero to what the coaches do. Thus, why does it even exist? The answer is so people can talk seahawks, blow off steam, question calls and meet up and discuss what the coaches should and shouldn't do while understanding that it won't change anything.

That said, I understand that the Flynnites have already stated their point, but that doesn't mean they can't talk about 20 yards in a half.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:47 am 
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this 20 yrds in a half crap does not represent reality, it's just a useless stat that doesn't depict what actually happend on the playing field.. so tired of hearing about this 20 yrds sh*t.... like that has nothing to do with the play calling.. if wilson attempted 10 12 passes and missed his target and only got 20 yrds , then we could talk, but that was not the case... go back and watch the game, and you'll see why he only passed for 20 yrds. next topic

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 Post subject: Re: Why I posted a hypothetical poll
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:42 pm 
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Great post's Falcongoggles

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