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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:20 am 
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Well, if you take this debate to its most illogical conclusion, then we should just get rid of the QB and run a Single Wing. That way the QB can’t screw-up all those “team” wins… :34853_doh:

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:23 am 
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Hasselbeck wrote:
Fearless Frog wrote:
Bullshit? Don't get mad at me for pointing out the obvious. Here's a better example: A team wins a game 3-0 on a field goal, or 2-0 from a safety. Is that a QB win? The QB played well enough to win?

I'm sorry, but this is football. It is the ultimate team sport. Saying Russell Wilson deserves to continue to start because the team is 3-2 flies in the face of all long and evidence that we've seen on the field.


Don't bring logic to the table with Wilson backers.

Everything good that happens = Wilson did it.

Everything bad = His OL, Darrell Bevell, the WR's, the temperature of Lake Washington, etc etc etc.

The kid can do no wrong on this message board.. when ANY other QB would have far more backlash.. :lol:


And here's my problem. You "non Wilson supporters" act like it's somehow our fault when things don't go well. Like if there's not enough "backlash" then the team's not going to get better. It's just plain stupid. You think how you feel and what you say has an effect on what happens on the field and IT DOES NOT.

I'm not a Wilson supporter. Sure, I like the kid, but he's not more important to me than the team. I'm a Seahawks QB supporter. So until that's somebody other than Wilson, I'm gonna root for the guy who's playing and I'm reasonable and rational enough to not jump ship when there's some bumps in the road.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:30 am 
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Just like I supported TJ! last year. And Hass before that. And Seneca. And Dilfer. And Kitna. And Moon. And Friesz. And Mirer. And Gelbaugh. And McGwire. And Stouffer. And Krieg. And Mathison. And Gilbert. And Kemp. That's as far back as I can go. Although I'm sure I would have supported Zorn were I aware of the situation at the time.

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Last edited by Zebulon Dak on Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:30 am 
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Hasselbeck wrote:
Danny O'Neil wrote:

Quote:
Of all the rookies who began the season as their team's starting quarterback over the past 20 years, only one attempted fewer passes than Russell Wilson through five games.

But none had more victories.


Few rookies had the talent in place on the roster already that Wilson inherited. I'd say off the top of my head, only maybe Big Ben and Flacco had more on D in recent memory.

The team is winning in SPITE of Wilson, not BECAUSE of Wilson.


Flacco was 2-3 to start out his 2008 season with worse stats then Wilson overall BY FAR. I'm sure Ravens fans are happy they stuck with Flacco. Flacco had a 1/7 td/int ratio and threw for barely more yards then Wilson (844 to 815) but he also threw 19 more passes.

Roethlisberger was a different animal all together, I don't think any rookie did as well as him his first season.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:32 am 
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Oooh! And the Charlies too. Both em.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:35 am 
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AF- hAWK,

I think Newton broke records as a Rookie last year, but most 1st yr starters struggle, there are rare exceptions to that rule. 9Brady,newton, Big Ben, etc)

I mean even P Manning struggled as a rookie, does ANYONE think of him as a bust?


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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:37 am 
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PatsFanNH wrote:
AF- hAWK,

I think Newton broke records as a Rookie last year, but most 1st yr starters struggle, there are rare exceptions to that rule. 9Brady,newton, Big Ben, etc)

I mean even P Manning struggled as a rookie, does ANYONE think of him as a bust?


Brady was 1/3 for 6 yards his rookie year.

*I know you said 1st year starter.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:38 am 
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Zebulon Dak wrote:
PatsFanNH wrote:
AF- hAWK,

I think Newton broke records as a Rookie last year, but most 1st yr starters struggle, there are rare exceptions to that rule. 9Brady,newton, Big Ben, etc)

I mean even P Manning struggled as a rookie, does ANYONE think of him as a bust?


Brady was 1/3 for 6 yards his rookie year.

*I know you said 1st year starter.


BUST!

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:38 am 
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Zebulon,

READ my post again.... I said 1st yr STARTERS.. As in the 1st year they take the reighns of the O...


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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:40 am 
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PatsFanNH wrote:
Zebulon,

READ my post again.... I said 1st yr STARTERS.. As in the 1st year they take the reighns of the O...


I did. And even though that doesn't really factor into our discussion here, it's duly noted.

Btw despite my avatar I don't hate the Pats. Fyi. I just hate the Pats until after Sunday. That's all.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:40 am 
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Hasselbeck wrote:
Fearless Frog wrote:
Bullshit? Don't get mad at me for pointing out the obvious. Here's a better example: A team wins a game 3-0 on a field goal, or 2-0 from a safety. Is that a QB win? The QB played well enough to win?

I'm sorry, but this is football. It is the ultimate team sport. Saying Russell Wilson deserves to continue to start because the team is 3-2 flies in the face of all long and evidence that we've seen on the field.


Don't bring logic to the table with Wilson backers.

Everything good that happens = Wilson did it.

Everything bad = His OL, Darrell Bevell, the WR's, the temperature of Lake Washington, etc etc etc.

The kid can do no wrong on this message board.. when ANY other QB would have far more backlash.. :lol:


Nothing says condescension like, "Only people who think like me are being logical."

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:46 am 
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Zebulon Dak wrote:
Just like I supported TJ! last year. And Hass before that. And Seneca. And Dilfer. And Kitna. And Moon. And Friesz. And Mirer. And Gelbaugh. And McGwire. And Stouffer. And Krieg. And Mathison. And Gilbert. And Kemp. That's as far back as I can go. Although I'm sure I would have supported Zorn were I aware of the situation at the time.


You can support and still be critical. We all love our Hawks, that's why we're here. Doesn't mean some of us accept it when our QB is not performing well, especially compared to all other areas of the team.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:52 am 
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Zebulon,

Thought your avatar was original, made me laugh the first time I saw it.

My point was that rookies/1st year starters WILL have growing pains and what I have seen from Wilson (limited sample seen mostly highlights) is he is a lot like Tom Brady in 01 plays safe GAME MANAGER football, and allows the D win the game for them. Which is a lot better than a lot of rookies do, hell look at Sanchez now, I think the Jets love have a GAME MANAGER with a 50% COMPLETION RATIO NOW LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:43 am 
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Kind of scary when you think Sanchez had a similar type of following his rookie year and he went to two conference championship games back to back.

Someone really should compare Sanchez rookie numbers to Flynn. Early mediocrity doesn't guarantee success with experience. How do you think Jets fans would feel now if they had someone like Flynn sitting on the sidelines while Sanchez was working through his rookie learning curve?

If three years from now Wilson is putting up Sanchez type numbers and Flynn goes on to have success elsewhere, Carroll might be ran out of town.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:46 am 
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RichNhansom wrote:
Kind of scary when you think Sanchez had a similar type of following his rookie year and he went to two conference championship games back to back.

Someone really should compare Sanchez rookie numbers to Flynn. Early mediocrity doesn't guarantee success with experience. How do you think Jets fans would feel now if they had someone like Flynn sitting on the sidelines while Sanchez was working through his rookie learning curve?

If three years from now Wilson is putting up Sanchez type numbers and Flynn goes on to have success elsewhere, Carroll might be ran out of town.


They did. They had Kellen Clemens. :stirthepot:

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:51 am 
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Sgt. Largent wrote:
Zebulon Dak wrote:
Just like I supported TJ! last year. And Hass before that. And Seneca. And Dilfer. And Kitna. And Moon. And Friesz. And Mirer. And Gelbaugh. And McGwire. And Stouffer. And Krieg. And Mathison. And Gilbert. And Kemp. That's as far back as I can go. Although I'm sure I would have supported Zorn were I aware of the situation at the time.


You can support and still be critical. We all love our Hawks, that's why we're here. Doesn't mean some of us accept it when our QB is not performing well, especially compared to all other areas of the team.


Exactly. The opinion that comes around here that if you don't think Wilson is doing ok, than you hate him and want him to fail is ridiculous.

Just like Lymon pointed out earlier in the thread, comparing Wilson to other rookies isn't a good measure. Teams that start rookies usually have no other option because a) They used a high draft pick on them or b) there are no other options on the team

The truth about Wilson is somewhere in the middle. He's not as bad as some people think and he's not as good as some people think. He is doing just enough to get by while our top 3 defense and rush offense is shouldering the load. My issue with this is, just enough isn't good enough to win championships. Realistically Wilson will improve as the season goes on but to say he has been playing well is just putting the blinders on.


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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:03 pm 
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amill87 wrote:
Sgt. Largent wrote:
Zebulon Dak wrote:
Just like I supported TJ! last year. And Hass before that. And Seneca. And Dilfer. And Kitna. And Moon. And Friesz. And Mirer. And Gelbaugh. And McGwire. And Stouffer. And Krieg. And Mathison. And Gilbert. And Kemp. That's as far back as I can go. Although I'm sure I would have supported Zorn were I aware of the situation at the time.


You can support and still be critical. We all love our Hawks, that's why we're here. Doesn't mean some of us accept it when our QB is not performing well, especially compared to all other areas of the team.


Exactly. The opinion that comes around here that if you don't think Wilson is doing ok, than you hate him and want him to fail is ridiculous.

Just like Lymon pointed out earlier in the thread, comparing Wilson to other rookies isn't a good measure. Teams that start rookies usually have no other option because a) They used a high draft pick on them or b) there are no other options on the team

The truth about Wilson is somewhere in the middle. He's not as bad as some people think and he's not as good as some people think. He is doing just enough to get by while our top 3 defense and rush offense is shouldering the load. My issue with this is, just enough isn't good enough to win championships. Realistically Wilson will improve as the season goes on but to say he has been playing well is just putting the blinders on.


Maybe it's just me, but I don't hear a lot of people praising Wilson for playing great. A lot of his supporters are, in fact, saying he's A) doing what he's supposed to (for the most part, with the exception of the INTs) and B) going to go through the normal rookie struggles and because of B, we should keep playing him so that he can work through that process to get us where we want to be.

It's the either/or disconnect where people assume that you either have to be Pro-Wilson because he's great or Pro-Flynn because he's actually better that causes most of these debates. If most positions weren't misrepresented, a lot of the white noise would be lost.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:06 pm 
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amill87 wrote:
My issue with this is, just enough isn't good enough to win championships. Realistically Wilson will improve as the season goes on but to say he has been playing well is just putting the blinders on.


If you want actual realism, here it is:

No QB on our roster can lead us to a championship THIS YEAR. It won't happen, because both are too damn green and new to the team. The last time a QB in his first year with a team won the SB, it was 1999 with Dilfer and the Ravens. And Dilfer wasn't a young guy who was a bench rider. He had a long starting history with Tampa and an all-time great defense helping him out (so it could even be argued that Dilfer didn't LEAD the team).

This year was ALWAYS going to be about developing a starting QB, and trying to win as much as possible while doing so. If you don't think Flynn would need development, that's another "blinders on" scenario. This is why our team has been built the way it has - to give our eventual QBOTF the best chance to succeed while allowing him to develop.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:31 pm 
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Vol you are assuming as much or probably way more about Flynn than anyone is assuming about Wilson. We know your stand point on Flynn and Wilson and IMO neither are rational.

No team has ever made rhe playoffs at 7-9 but we did and beat the defending champs. Sanchez went to the AFC championship his first two years and he sucks.

You don't know we couldn't be super bowl worthy. The learning curve Flynn has is chemistry with team mates and getting fully comfortable with the play book. He isn't having to learn the speed of the NFL game, how to function inside a pocket, how to read defenses and audible appropriately and the list goes on.
,
What we are seeing from Wilson right now is likely what we will see for some time before he either takes the next step forward or backwards like Sanchez did. Hopefully it is forward.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:48 pm 
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RichNhansom wrote:
Kind of scary when you think Sanchez had a similar type of following his rookie year and he went to two conference championship games back to back.


Why is it scary? Wtf is scary about it? Neither Sanchez nor Wilson will be affected in any way by their "following." It doesn't matter what we think.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:12 pm 
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RichNhansom wrote:
Vol you are assuming as much or probably way more about Flynn than anyone is assuming about Wilson. We know your stand point on Flynn and Wilson and IMO neither are rational.

No team has ever made rhe playoffs at 7-9 but we did and beat the defending champs. Sanchez went to the AFC championship his first two years and he sucks.

You don't know we couldn't be super bowl worthy. The learning curve Flynn has is chemistry with team mates and getting fully comfortable with the play book. He isn't having to learn the speed of the NFL game, how to function inside a pocket, how to read defenses and audible appropriately and the list goes on.
,
What we are seeing from Wilson right now is likely what we will see for some time before he either takes the next step forward or backwards like Sanchez did. Hopefully it is forward.


Bollocks.

Name me ONE quarterback with Flynn's level of experience that EVER led his team to the SB.

Just one.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:12 pm 
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RichNhansom wrote:
Kind of scary when you think Sanchez had a similar type of following his rookie year and he went to two conference championship games back to back.


.........and now he's in danger of getting benched for arguably the most over-rated backup QB in NFL history.

Let's hope Wilson's ceiling is higher than being the next Mark Sanchez.

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:25 pm 
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volsunghawk wrote:
RichNhansom wrote:
Vol you are assuming as much or probably way more about Flynn than anyone is assuming about Wilson. We know your stand point on Flynn and Wilson and IMO neither are rational.

No team has ever made rhe playoffs at 7-9 but we did and beat the defending champs. Sanchez went to the AFC championship his first two years and he sucks.

You don't know we couldn't be super bowl worthy. The learning curve Flynn has is chemistry with team mates and getting fully comfortable with the play book. He isn't having to learn the speed of the NFL game, how to function inside a pocket, how to read defenses and audible appropriately and the list goes on.
,
What we are seeing from Wilson right now is likely what we will see for some time before he either takes the next step forward or backwards like Sanchez did. Hopefully it is forward.


Bollocks.

Name me ONE quarterback with Flynn's level of experience that EVER led his team to the SB.

Just one.


Jeff Hostetler. 3rd round pick, only threw 109 passes in seven years as a backup. Came in after Simms broke his foot in 1990, and led the Giants to a SB win.

There have been many pedestrian QB's that have won Superbowls. Rypien, Williams, Dilfer, Hostetler, Johnson.

The question is why are you already assuming Flynn falls into this sort of bad QB category when he hasn't even been given a chance yet?

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 Post subject: Re: Rookie QB comparison from O'Neil
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Sgt. Largent wrote:
volsunghawk wrote:
Bollocks.

Name me ONE quarterback with Flynn's level of experience that EVER led his team to the SB.

Just one.


Jeff Hostetler. 3rd round pick, only threw 109 passes in seven years as a backup. Came in after Simms broke his foot in 1990, and led the Giants to a SB win.

There have been many pedestrian QB's that have won Superbowls. Rypien, Williams, Dilfer, Hostetler, Johnson.

The question is why are you already assuming Flynn falls into this sort of bad QB category when he hasn't even been given a chance yet?


Jeff Hostetler is the only one of those guys that fits the description Vol was looking for, and even then he didn't get to start until toward the very end of the season if I remember correctly. Johnson comes nowhere close. Dilfer and Williams both had more than a few full seasons of starting experience before they made their Super Bowl runs. Rypien started 30 games before his run in 1991.

I don't know what any of this even proves anyway other than rarely does a QB with little experience lead his team to the Super Bowl which is kind of obvious, is it not?

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