bestfightstory wrote:

theENGLISHseahawk wrote:Hasselbeck
Whitehurst
Jackson
Wilson
Flynn

You can't have five starting quarterbacks in two and a quarter seasons and expect to be a contender. Carroll needs to make a decision and stick to it.

BUT you CAN have 4???? Are we just now on the threshold?

Who said you can have four? I'm quoting the number that exists, not saying we've now reached the tipping point. Clearly you can't have a carousel at QB for two and a half years and expect to win more football games than you lose.

Largent80 wrote:Here is a challenge for everyone so concerned about QB and want to assign all the blame on him.

Actually watch his supporting cast today...YOU KNOW?...The people he has to depend on to keep the other team from trying to stop him.

Start with the middle of the O-Line, then work out from there. Watch his receivers, are they coming back to the ball to help him out if he has to run, and can/will they hold onto the ball when it is thrown their way.......?

Rob, stop being reasonable! It's .Net - where a problem can only be one thing or another. Our offensive struggles are exclusively on Wilson, it can't be that our interior pass blocking sucks and that our WRs would be buried on the depth chart on most other good teams rosters. It can't be that we don't have any offensive players outside of Lynch that scare defenses. It can't be the chicken sh*t play calling.

Right?



Wilson is struggling. No question. But a lot of those around him are struggling too, including his coaches.

FlyingGreg wrote:And for all you so excited to see Flynn, just remember a few things: He didn't do squat in the pre-season, has not thrown the ball much at all the last few months with his elbow, he has the same lack of true targets to throw to as Wilson does, and Bevell is still the play caller.

Anyone expecting Flynn to ride in on a white horse and throw for 300 yds is going to be very, very disappointed.

Wilson just called. He wants to know how you made him taller in your avi.

I like what I hear from Moon, Kitna and others but I am seeing a potentially very special season being wasted if a change is *not* made. I'll root for whoever is out there and I am as excited as anybody about Wilson but there needs to be a sense of urgency about this thing.

If Wilson is half the kid people claim he is, he would understand a benching and it would not harm his development one bit. If he is struggling at the half, I hope to see what we have in Flynn. We know what we currently have in Wilson.

FlyingGreg wrote:

amill87 wrote:

FlyingGreg wrote:And for all you so excited to see Flynn, just remember a few things: He didn't do squat in the pre-season, has not thrown the ball much at all the last few months with his elbow, he has the same lack of true targets to throw to as Wilson does, and Bevell is still the play caller.

Anyone expecting Flynn to ride in on a white horse and throw for 300 yds is going to be very, very disappointed.

And if he does? Will you say it's because his line protected better, the receivers ran better routes, and Bevell called a better game?

Noone expects Flynn to throw for 300 yards (even though in one game he has thrown for more yards and TDs than Wilson has in his career) but hoping for a QB that can step up in the pocket, not make the receivers jump to catch balls, and hit wide open guys really isn't too much....

NO ... I'll give him credit if he does. I just don't think it's going to be like flicking a switch - Flynn was check down Charlie in the pre-season. He just looked....blah.

You do know that Wilson has been check down charlie so far right?

oh and how did the preseason work out for Kolb? Saying "Flynn was blah in preseason, so that is relevant to him in the regular season but when he actually played in the regular season, it isn't" is just lazy.

FlyingGreg wrote:

amill87 wrote:

FlyingGreg wrote:And for all you so excited to see Flynn, just remember a few things: He didn't do squat in the pre-season, has not thrown the ball much at all the last few months with his elbow, he has the same lack of true targets to throw to as Wilson does, and Bevell is still the play caller.

Anyone expecting Flynn to ride in on a white horse and throw for 300 yds is going to be very, very disappointed.

And if he does? Will you say it's because his line protected better, the receivers ran better routes, and Bevell called a better game?

Noone expects Flynn to throw for 300 yards (even though in one game he has thrown for more yards and TDs than Wilson has in his career) but hoping for a QB that can step up in the pocket, not make the receivers jump to catch balls, and hit wide open guys really isn't too much....

NO ... I'll give him credit if he does. I just don't think it's going to be like flicking a switch - Flynn was check down Charlie in the pre-season. He just looked....blah.

Yeah, I've heard the same tired story of how great Flynn was in all two of his NFL starts. The problem that people conveniently leave out is he was throwing to Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Donald Driver, Randall Cobb, and Jermichael Finley. Doesn't exactly match up with our talent at WR/TE, does it? For all that budding All Pro buzz he built terrorizing the vaunted Lions defense in that game last season, it sure didn't translate to much demand on the free agent market, did it? Teams realize he was set-up for success in Green Bay way more than he would be anywhere else. That could all change, of course. Just how I see it now.

And if we switch to Flynn, any cohesion developing whatsoever goes out the window and it's a re-start. I thought it was an odd decision to start Wilson to begin with, but once you put him out there I feel you have to let him endure the growing pains.

But no, if they do switch I'll support Flynn. I just think people should temper expectations.

But the opposite is true too. People get tired of the same old story of how Flynn was blah in the preseason. But guess what? Regular season games are more meaningful indicators than preseason games.

and if Green Bay is SO da bomb stock full of talent, why'd we beat them? Finally, the talent level is across the board in the NFL. That's why we say Any Given Sunday. So saying he did that with Green Bay is BS imo. He's got talent to throw to here as well.

Don't expect a 300 yard game. Just expect an adequate day with some 3rd down conversions, some misses, maybe even a pick or two, but longer, more sustained drives.

FlyingGreg wrote: Wilson is struggling. No question. But a lot of those around him are struggling too, including his coaches.

Nicely put Greg. Why we are consistently going empty back sets on 3rd and 3 yet sending power formations out there on 2nd and 8 is troubling.

This really makes for an interesting day and season.RW should be able to step up if he is the player we all think he is,and on the other side Matt Flynn should be ready to play and make a statement that is what he was brought here for and has been groomed in Green Bay for.

Well, whatevz if it happens, it happens and I hope it works out. I hope for Wilson's sake though he can do it because this could be his last chance (aside from injury) to start again if Flynn plays well. If Flynn looks like trash then Pete would have dug himself a really really deep hole.

bestfightstory wrote:GOOD!

Not sure I believe C Mortenson but I want whoever is on the field to play well. To play better than Wilson has been thus far this year.

Let it be Wilson. That's fine with me and I will be cheering as loudly as any of you.

If not, get him out of there, please. I don't want to suffer the learning curve at the expense of wins.

I will no longer comment on any QB related threads. BFS speaks for me.

amill87 wrote:You do know that Wilson has been check down charlie so far right?

oh and how did the preseason work out for Kolb? Saying "Flynn was blah in preseason, so that is relevant to him in the regular season but when he actually played in the regular season, it isn't" is just lazy.

It's ok, I won't keep you from re-watching those Flynn highlights from last season. He is the man! Again, you don't acknowledge the reality of the play makers Flynn had in Green Bay. Why?



So if *both* have been check down Charlie's, could that mean the bigger issues (as I've said 1000 times) might be the WR's? Hmmmm.....

No it's not lazy, you are missing the point. I'll slow it down for you: Carroll made the decision based more on what he saw in the pre-season games. Which QB looked far more exciting in the pre-season? Please take the Flynn bumper sticker off before you answer, because it was way beyond obvious who it is. Are there mitigating factors for that? Sure...Wilson played against mostly 2nd and 3rd stringers, no scheming, etc. I get that. But remember, I'm stating why I think Wilson was named the starter - as we have rehashed endlessly in here.

In that light, the pre-season performance IS relevant.

Look, I know everyone is frustrated by the offense. I am as well. But you have to look at the big picture - it's not JUST the QB. Now THAT is being lazy. Some of it is the WRs, some of it is the conservative play calling, some is the interior pass blocking. All of it needs to come together for this offense to stop laying turds. We've seen flashes of it at times this season (Wilson's ability to move the ball late in the game to get in position, the beautiful TD throws to McCoy and Tate).

I will say -- if Wilson struggles today, I want to see Flynn. We can't keep donating games to science and hoping defense, the running game and special teams pull it out. We need much, much more from the offense. If Flynn is the answer, then I'll ride his bandwagon too. I'm not one of these fans that picks a player ahead of the team. I supported T Jack last season when he played, even though U knew we could do better.

But I'll just go on record and say if Flynn comes in, I'm not expecting instant change in the offense because I think a lot of other things needs to be fixed.

Would Flynn be able to convert in the Run, Run, Pass (7+) scenario any better than wilson? Its just so predictable, and a terrible situation for the QB. Sounds like changing just to change.

It would definitely take me by surprise if Wilson got pulled in the middle of the game.

VHawk wrote:This really makes for an interesting day and season.RW should be able to step up if he is the player we all think he is,and on the other side Matt Flynn should be ready to play and make a statement that is what he was brought here for and has been groomed in Green Bay for.

no you watch, IF Flynn comes in and has a great game it will be because "the defense didn't scheme for him"

If Russell struggles and Pete puts in Flynn and he only struggles further, I will want this to be Pete's last season. That would not sit well with me.

m0ng0 wrote:

Largent80 wrote:Watch his receivers, are they coming back to the ball to help him out if he has to run, and can/will they hold onto the ball when it is thrown their way.......?

I think you just touched on a part of the bigger problem as the receivers don't know if they should finish their routes or look to start blocking as they have no idea what he is going to do with the ball once he starts moving, as the season goes on I am hoping they start to develop a little more chemistry. It is definitely a 2 way street in that regard.

With Flynn they know to finish their routes as Matt is not very mobile and has a quicker release.

That's bs mongo. All receivers are supposed to finish their routes and come back to help their QB when he's in trouble.

If Flynn comes in..It will be because of a mystery injury to Wilson.

The Radish wrote:

m0ng0 wrote:

Largent80 wrote:Watch his receivers, are they coming back to the ball to help him out if he has to run, and can/will they hold onto the ball when it is thrown their way.......?

I think you just touched on a part of the bigger problem as the receivers don't know if they should finish their routes or look to start blocking as they have no idea what he is going to do with the ball once he starts moving, as the season goes on I am hoping they start to develop a little more chemistry. It is definitely a 2 way street in that regard.

With Flynn they know to finish their routes as Matt is not very mobile and has a quicker release.

That's bs mongo. All receivers are supposed to finish their routes and come back to help their QB when he's in trouble.

not if he is already running before the play develops

Seahawk Sailor wrote:Hey, at least this season we can afford to throw Flynn in there and blow a game to prove a point, if that's what it comes to.

At least you have dropped the pretense of objectivity when it comes to our QBs.

If this is what Pete thinks he has to do, cool.

theENGLISHseahawk wrote:

bestfightstory wrote:

theENGLISHseahawk wrote:Hasselbeck
Whitehurst
Jackson
Wilson
Flynn

You can't have five starting quarterbacks in two and a quarter seasons and expect to be a contender. Carroll needs to make a decision and stick to it.

BUT you CAN have 4???? Are we just now on the threshold?

Who said you can have four? I'm quoting the number that exists, not saying we've now reached the tipping point. Clearly you can't have a carousel at QB for two and a half years and expect to win more football games than you lose.

No. you MUST have that carousel at QB until you are convinced that you have settled on the right guy. Wilson has not proven to Carroll that he is that guy.

Tech Worlds wrote:No. you MUST have that carousel at QB until you are convinced that you have settled on the right guy.

That assumes that the right guy will immediately show himself ready and not require any development.

If PC is already threatening to bench Wilson, that tells me that PC is really not happy with Wilson. It took PC 13 turnovers in four games to pull Hasselbeck in 2010. Although that may have been because of an injury, or PC being REALLY unhappy with Whitehurst.

FlyingGreg wrote:
No it's not lazy, you are missing the point. I'll slow it down for you: Carroll made the decision based more on what he saw in the pre-season games. Which QB looked far more exciting in the pre-season? Please take the Flynn bumper sticker off before you answer, because it was way beyond obvious who it is. Are there mitigating factors for that? Sure...Wilson played against mostly 2nd and 3rd stringers, no scheming, etc. I get that. But remember, I'm stating why I think Wilson was named the starter - as we have rehashed endlessly in here.

You are saying that our coach who is known for loving to do things differently and has made decisions because he got too emotional could in NO WAY make the wrong decision? Carroll will never be mistaken for a QB guru. This is the guy who thought Whitehurst might be a starting QB in the league.

I am not a Wilson hater and Flynn fanboy. At the core of my concerns is Carroll really doesn't know how to handle QBs. He has yet to prove at the pro level he knows what makes a good QB. This report only confirms what I'm afraid if it's true. One, Carroll made a bad decision to start with. Two, he thinks he can just move QBs in and out like they are a lineman.

amill87 wrote:At the core of my concerns is Carroll really doesn't know how to handle QBs. He has yet to prove at the pro level he knows what makes a good QB. This report only confirms what I'm afraid is true. One, Carroll made a bad decision to start with. Two, he thinks he can just move QBs in and out like they are a lineman.

I see where you're going, but let me try and rephrase this in a way that doesn't make PC look like such a convenient idiot. I believe he thinks he can apply the motivational "competition" mantra to each position equally and is finding out that QB is different. Or perhaps he has never faced this equal of a QB race before.

I'll we need now is some 3 and outs.

MontanaHawk05 wrote:

amill87 wrote:At the core of my concerns is Carroll really doesn't know how to handle QBs. He has yet to prove at the pro level he knows what makes a good QB. This report only confirms what I'm afraid is true. One, Carroll made a bad decision to start with. Two, he thinks he can just move QBs in and out like they are a lineman.

I see where you're going, but let me try and rephrase this in a way that doesn't make PC look like such a convenient idiot. I believe he thinks he can apply the motivational "competition" mantra to each position equally and is finding out that QB is different. Or perhaps he has never faced this equal of a QB race before.

I don't necessarily believe without a shadow of a doubt Carroll is bad with QBs but it is lingering in the back of mind and it scares the hell out of me. Right now imo he is 0 for 3 with QBs (I consider letting Hass walk a bad move).

I really want him to get rid of the doubt in my mind.

amill87 wrote:Right now imo he is 0 for 3 with QBs (I consider letting Hass walk a bad move).

Oh. Well, if you're basing your opinion on QB failures that had no better alternatives, I guess I'm not going to be able to see eye to eye with you.

Luv em both. Want to win right now. The defense if rested could be even more amazing.

MontanaHawk05 wrote:

amill87 wrote:Right now imo he is 0 for 3 with QBs (I consider letting Hass walk a bad move).

Oh. Well, if you're basing your opinion on QB failures that had no better alternatives, I guess I'm not going to be able to see eye to eye with you.

Maybe 0 for 3 is a bit rough on him. There were alternatives to Whitehurst and keeping Hass around may have paid off with the team we now have (a savy veteran with a strong run game and good defense sounds good right about now).

amill87 wrote:Maybe 0 for 3 is a bit rough on him. There were alternatives to Whitehurst and keeping Hass around may have paid off with the team we now have (a savy veteran with a strong run game and good defense sounds good right about now).

Hasselbeck would be in the hospital right now with this team. He would have had to go through early 2011. Our pass protection has barely improved since he left. Hass needed the second best pass-blocking O-line in the league just to get back to an 18-14 TD/INT ratio. We don't need a QB who's that high-maintenance. Tarvaris Jackson got more done with similar talent level than Hass would have.

FlyingGreg wrote:And for all you so excited to see Flynn, just remember a few things: He didn't do squat in the pre-season, has not thrown the ball much at all the last few months with his elbow, he has the same lack of true targets to throw to as Wilson does, and Bevell is still the play caller.

Anyone expecting Flynn to ride in on a white horse and throw for 300 yds is going to be very, very disappointed.

Yeah, but Russell Wilson did things in the preseason and nothing special in regular. Preseason does not matter.

MrCarey wrote:

FlyingGreg wrote:And for all you so excited to see Flynn, just remember a few things: He didn't do squat in the pre-season, has not thrown the ball much at all the last few months with his elbow, he has the same lack of true targets to throw to as Wilson does, and Bevell is still the play caller.

Anyone expecting Flynn to ride in on a white horse and throw for 300 yds is going to be very, very disappointed.

Yeah, but Russell Wilson did things in the preseason and nothing special in regular. Preseason does not matter.

I think the point is that if Wilson's regular season looks like this in comparison to his preseason, what's Flynn's regular season going to regress to when playing "for realz"?

Seahawk Sailor wrote:

MrCarey wrote:

FlyingGreg wrote:And for all you so excited to see Flynn, just remember a few things: He didn't do squat in the pre-season, has not thrown the ball much at all the last few months with his elbow, he has the same lack of true targets to throw to as Wilson does, and Bevell is still the play caller.

Anyone expecting Flynn to ride in on a white horse and throw for 300 yds is going to be very, very disappointed.

Yeah, but Russell Wilson did things in the preseason and nothing special in regular. Preseason does not matter.

I think the point is that if Wilson's regular season looks like this in comparison to his preseason, what's Flynn's regular season going to regress to when playing "for realz"?

We have no idea what he will look like "for realz". Preseason means nothing. Kolb looked worse than Whitehurst in preseason and now he is doing pretty decent.

Source? I need more context.

bestfightstory wrote:

Largent80 wrote:Here is a challenge for everyone so concerned about QB and want to assign all the blame on him.

Actually watch his supporting cast today...YOU KNOW?...The people he has to depend on to keep the other team from trying to stop him.

Start with the middle of the O-Line, then work out from there. Watch his receivers, are they coming back to the ball to help him out if he has to run, and can/will they hold onto the ball when it is thrown their way.......?

You are the only one who has EVER done this. All those with different opinions than yours have NEVER done this because their bull's eye is trained exclusively on Wilson!

BRILLIANT!

Thanks and it actually is brilliant without being an ass.

I think the reality is like alot of fans think is that Pete cannot waste a season to watch a rookie QB struggle all year long especially when you paid a guy starter money that is sitting on the bench.

MontanaHawk05 wrote:
Hasselbeck would be in the hospital right now with this team. He would have had to go through early 2011. Our pass protection has barely improved since he left. Hass needed the second best pass-blocking O-line in the league just to get back to an 18-14 TD/INT ratio. We don't need a QB who's that high-maintenance. Tarvaris Jackson got more done with similar talent level than Hass would have.

I don't get this line of thought. Basically saying that the only way to beat pressure and make up for a bad line is to be mobile? Most NFL QBs are not particularly fleet of foot. Would Hass take some hits? Probably but we all know he can do a three step drop and hit a hot read.

Kurt Warner went to the Super bowl with a terrible o-line and I don't know if there is a QB in league history less mobile than him. Yes I know he is a hall of famer but the point is there are ways to beat pressure without being mobile.

If he's monitoring 3rd downs to potentially replace his QB i hope he's also monitoring 3rd downs (specifically 3rd and shorts) to replace his coordinator.

amill87 wrote:

MontanaHawk05 wrote:
Hasselbeck would be in the hospital right now with this team. He would have had to go through early 2011. Our pass protection has barely improved since he left. Hass needed the second best pass-blocking O-line in the league just to get back to an 18-14 TD/INT ratio. We don't need a QB who's that high-maintenance. Tarvaris Jackson got more done with similar talent level than Hass would have.

I don't get this line of thought. Basically saying that the only way to beat pressure and make up for a bad line is to be mobile? Most NFL QBs are not particularly fleet of foot. Would Hass take some hits? Probably but we all know he can do a three step drop and hit a hot read.

Kurt Warner went to the Super bowl with a terrible o-line and I don't know if there is a QB in league history less mobile than him. Yes I know he is a hall of famer but the point is there are ways to beat pressure without being mobile.

I think the point is Hass already showed before he left he was getting killed behind this line and it was affecting his play a significant amount. You don't have to be mobile to beat pressure, but Hass at this stage of his career did not handle it well at all the last couple of years he was here.

JSeahawks wrote:If he's monitoring 3rd downs to potentially replace his QB i hope he's also monitoring 3rd downs (specifically 3rd and shorts) to replace his coordinator.

Preach brotha!

Interesting.......something has got to change is we want to contend. Either Russell needs to take a big step forward, or their needs to be a QB change as much as I would hate to see it.

I hope he's monitoring the whole team all game to make the best decisions for the entire team all the time.

Seahawk Sailor wrote:

MrCarey wrote:

FlyingGreg wrote:And for all you so excited to see Flynn, just remember a few things: He didn't do squat in the pre-season, has not thrown the ball much at all the last few months with his elbow, he has the same lack of true targets to throw to as Wilson does, and Bevell is still the play caller.

Anyone expecting Flynn to ride in on a white horse and throw for 300 yds is going to be very, very disappointed.

Yeah, but Russell Wilson did things in the preseason and nothing special in regular. Preseason does not matter.

I think the point is that if Wilson's regular season looks like this in comparison to his preseason, what's Flynn's regular season going to regress to when playing "for realz"?

Yeah, and I'm saying that preseason can't show you anything at all. We've seen some of the best QBs come in during preseason and look like ass, then come into the regular season and play like their normal selves. Can't use preseason to see much more than arm strength, as proven by Russell Wilson. You just don't see them playing against real defense, so you don't get a real feel for who they are and how they can manage a real game.

I hope that Pete sticks with Wilson. I've been on record stating that I believe its way too early to bench a QB. However, even though i'm one of the biggest Wilson fans on this board, if Flynn does get a chance I hope he plays amazing and proves that he should have gotten the job all along. Because 1. I love the Seahawks and I want whoever is playing QB to be great and 2. i'm incredibly sick of QB debates around here.

If he puts Flynn in and he does great then I'll be happier than a pig in shit... but if he puts Flynn in and he sucks then then hopefully RW can use it as motivation to step his game up.

I don't care who the QB of this team is, I just want him to be good, and if I'm coach and if he's a rookie then I'm willing to let him learn which ever way we decide is best for him to learn, be it on the bench or on the field.

Zebulon Dak wrote:If he puts Flynn in and he does great then I'll be happier than a pig in shit... but if he puts Flynn in and he sucks then then hopefully RW can use it as motivation to step his game up.

I don't care who the QB of this team is, I just want him to be good, and if I'm coach and if he's a rookie then I'm willing to let him learn which ever way we decide is best for him to learn, be it on the bench or on the field.

Exactamundo my brotha!

We went with the rook because coach figured the rook gave us the best chance to win. But in going with a rook, you need to be prepared to struggle through some growing pains out of the gate, which we have. Best way to hammer through a rooks growing pains is to have a great d and run the rock, which we have, and that has got us to within 2 last minute drives of being 4-0.

If necessary, plug in Flynn (and if he does come in, I hope he plays well cuz I just wanna win), but I don't think its necessary quite yet. The plan is working. We just need to have some patience with the learning curve. As the rook learns how to handle certain situations (and the OC learns how to call plays that play to his strengths), those 3rd down coversions will start clicking and the W's will come.

Til then, everyone needs to take a xanax and a sip of Zima and chill...

amill87 wrote:Most NFL QBs are not particularly fleet of foot. Would Hass take some hits? Probably but we all know he can do a three step drop and hit a hot read.

Kurt Warner went to the Super bowl with a terrible o-line and I don't know if there is a QB in league history less mobile than him. Yes I know he is a hall of famer but the point is there are ways to beat pressure without being mobile.

Hass can't do three-step drops on every single down. Just because there are tactical ways to handle pressure doesn't mean that a statuesque QB is completely safe. And with Hass's arm on the decline, those short passes were mostly all he had, and defenses were crowding the line as a result.

FlyingGreg wrote:

amill87 wrote:

FlyingGreg wrote:NO ... I'll give him credit if he does. I just don't think it's going to be like flicking a switch - Flynn was check down Charlie in the pre-season. He just looked....blah.
If they do switch I'll support Flynn. I just think people should temper expectations.

If Pete does do a switch, and still insists on playing his Quarterback conservatively?, I don't see the point in making any changes, other than maybe Flynn MIGHT have a better touch on his passes.
I already suspect that behind the scenes, the Quarterbacks are complaining that Carroll and Bevel are hampering the possible success that could be, by attaching the puppet strings.
I've no doubt that Flynn, and maybe even Wilson are more than likely unhappy with the hampering control, because the Seahawks just may not be where either of these guys wind up their carreers ,and some other teams will weigh their value with their performance while they're with the Seahawks organization.
Moon has all but said that these guys are being held back.

Pete needs to realise that whoever is starting cannot be scared to death to turn it over or face being blamed as the reason for defeat. Turnovers happen. Trust the QB to limit the ones we make but also trust him to make plays and don't fill his head with 'don't turn it over... don't turn it over'.

If he does that to wilson after its HIS (Pete's) fault we aren't scoring then i hope we go 0 - 13 with Flynn just to see what people say then.