The 4 year plan

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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:59 am
  • they have a 4 year plan and thats good but pete did himself a disservice by selecting to start a rookie qb and crowing about how good everything is around the vmac all summer. since then things have gotten off to a rough start, which is understandable but ridiculously frustrating. his plan is a good thing to have as a framework but when he tells you he is going off course for his own ego and it doesn't work out, the last thing you want to hear is how great his plan is working. its salt in the wound at that point. its just better for him to accept that a problem he started needs more of his attention, but its now too late for personnel changes so we have to adjust what the player is allowed/can do.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:10 am
  • The 4-year plan, while valid, should not be used as a crutch or an excuse for the in-season tactical things this team is failing.

    Play calling, penalties, playing soft on 3rd down defense and red zone ineptness cannot be excused away as a victim of the 4-year plan. In my best Herman Edwards voice, you "play to win the game". While I agree the rebuilding project is not complete (it was made even more obvious when we totally ignored the offense outside of Robert Turbin in the draft), we are losing games not because of inferior talent but because of poor coaching and mistakes.

    PS Kip - I'm not saying YOU are using it as an excuse. I just don't want people tp jump on the back of it and wave the flag.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:21 am
  • FlyingGreg wrote:The 4-year plan, while valid, should not be used as a crutch or an excuse for the in-season tactical things this team is failing.

    Play calling, penalties, playing soft on 3rd down defense and red zone ineptness cannot be excused away as a victim of the 4-year plan. In my best Herman Edwards voice, you "play to win the game". While I agree the rebuilding project is not complete (it was made even more obvious when we totally ignored the offense outside of Robert Turbin in the draft), we are losing games not because of inferior talent but because of poor coaching and mistakes.

    PS Kip - I'm not saying YOU are using it as an excuse. I just don't want people tp jump on the back of it and wave the flag.


    Good points. I mentioned before that I think that Schneider was being pretty specific when he mentioned that there was a 4-year plan in place. I think that's how long he determined it would take for the team to get the types of players they desired in place at all positions and then to get them to develop cohesiveness, chemistry, etc.

    Of course, that's still only a plan. I think there are probably areas where things have come together quicker than expected (the secondary, perhaps) and areas where things have taken longer than they'd like (O-line, for example). I think this is still a team that's developing. I don't think it's close to a finished product that can enter maintenance mode yet, and I absolutely don't believe they're just a different QB away from SB contender status (unless, perhaps, that QB is the 2003-2009 version of Peyton Manning - who, as I understand, is not available due to the undeveloped nature of time travel).

    The plan can explain why we might continue to see youth being developed at some positions, but it doesn't excuse the unnecessary penalties and the poor coaching decisions (like onside kicks to start the 2nd half when it's a 1 score game).
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:32 am
  • I guess our floor could be the chargers. Deep talented roster that keeps under performing. Boy I hope not.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:35 am
  • Sure would be a shame to waste the good years Marshawn has left to see if Russell can play. It makes far more sense to see at least what Flynn can do given how good this team is.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:52 am
  • I'd agree with you if the ENTIRE team was still growing along with Wilson.

    But it's not, this team is built to compete for a Superbowl NOW, not in four years. We have all the other pieces in place, a top 5 defense, the #1 running attack in the league, and a very good special teams. All that's missing is a QB that can read a defense, convert on 3rd downs, and make a couple plays a game to score more than 10 points a game.

    You might be right, Wilson could be the answer........but he's not the answer in 2012. Flynn gives us the best chance to win NOW.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:52 am
  • Bigpumpkin wrote:The recent hysteria regarding Mr. Wilson is directly correlated to the 21st century mentality of the "I want it now mindset". Much of what now happens in our lives is "instant gratification" often do to the "computer age" in which we live. There are some things that do not happen as fast as we like....this is especially true of things once one passes the age of 60. There are always disppointments when expectations do not meet reality. Take marriage for example..... Choosing an NFL QB to lead your team is sort of like getting married...you have to take the good with the bad. It appears that there are posters on here who wish to change QB's as often as they change the sheets on their bed!


    C'mon man, come up with something original that you actually thought of. That old line is BS anyway, about the computer age. People have always been inpatient, especially Americans.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:04 am
  • Missing_Clink wrote:Sure would be a shame to waste the good years Marshawn has left to see if Russell can play. It makes far more sense to see at least what Flynn can do given how good this team is.


    This.

    People talk of this 3 year or so window but I see a 1 year window with a pretty healthy team.
    Lynch, Rice, Clemons, Okung, Moffit, Carpenter ect... all could be out of the picture in a flash.

    I believe still we are very close to having what we need to go deep into playoffs now. Wait for nothing, play to win, and start coaching to win now!
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:09 am
  • Verndog wrote:
    Missing_Clink wrote:Sure would be a shame to waste the good years Marshawn has left to see if Russell can play. It makes far more sense to see at least what Flynn can do given how good this team is.


    This.

    People talk of this 3 year or so window but I see a 1 year window with a pretty healthy team.
    Lynch, Rice, Clemons, Okung, Moffit, Carpenter ect... all could be out of the picture in a flash.

    I believe still we are very close to having what we need to go deep into playoffs now. Wait for nothing, play to win, and start coaching to win now!


    1 year window? Screw that. I want to contend EVERY year, like the Steelers, Patriots, Ravens, etc. And that requires players to develop. We had O-linemen develop last season. We had secondary guys develop the year before that. We've got a QB developing now.

    As for players who could be out of the picture in a flash, this is the NFL. That applies to every player on every team. Useless as a scare tactic.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:15 am
  • Really good discussion in this thread. Parts of me agree with all of you. I always thought starting Flynn. Would be better for the team. Figured he would get hurt at so e point this year and RW would take over and never look back, leaving Flynn as awesome trade bait. I have my doubs we would be 2-2 flynn though.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:15 am
  • Verndog wrote:
    Missing_Clink wrote:Sure would be a shame to waste the good years Marshawn has left to see if Russell can play. It makes far more sense to see at least what Flynn can do given how good this team is.


    This.

    People talk of this 3 year or so window but I see a 1 year window with a pretty healthy team.
    Lynch, Rice, Clemons, Okung, Moffit, Carpenter ect... all could be out of the picture in a flash.

    I believe still we are very close to having what we need to go deep into playoffs now. Wait for nothing, play to win, and start coaching to win now!


    And I think you also have to consider that this defense has a lot of young guys who are underpaid given their performance. Can the team afford to keep all of its star young defensive players when it comes time for their second contracts? Maybe the length of their various contracts makes keeping most of them more feasible, I really don't know. My point is that it would be a shame for NFL economics to force at least a partial breakup of this awesome Defense, and then we all lament that they missed their window because the offense was just so bad while the team waited to see if RW3 can play.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:23 am
  • volsunghawk wrote:
    1 year window? Screw that. I want to contend EVERY year, like the Steelers, Patriots, Ravens, etc. And that requires players to develop.


    So do I but my main point is, the window of certainty is here now. Next year yes, we build, plan and hope to be there, but it is the future and is not a reality yet, and history proves it cannot be relied upon.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:24 am
  • sam1313 wrote:Really good discussion in this thread. Parts of me agree with all of you. I always thought starting Flynn. Would be better for the team. Figured he would get hurt at so e point this year and RW would take over and never look back, leaving Flynn as awesome trade bait. I have my doubs we would be 2-2 flynn though.


    This is the problem I have with Carroll's "unconventional" way of coaching.

    Common sense says you signed Flynn, he's the more capable QB to start now with how good the rest of our team is. Flynn can read defenses, go through progressions faster and more times than not throw to the right spot and change plays when needed.

    Why did Carroll rush Wilson into the starting job? There was no need, let the guy sit, learn the league and in a year or two if Flynn doesn't work out you bring him in. I just never saw the reason to rush Wilson, and now we're paying for it with the worst passing offense in the league.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:37 am
  • Verndog wrote:
    volsunghawk wrote:
    1 year window? Screw that. I want to contend EVERY year, like the Steelers, Patriots, Ravens, etc. And that requires players to develop.


    So do I but my main point is, the window of certainty is here now. Next year yes, we build, plan and hope to be there, but it is the future and is not a reality yet, and history proves it cannot be relied upon.


    I don't think any "certainty" is here yet. I think we've made big strides, but we're still a work in progress. Our defense is better than we've ever seen it, but we still give up too many 3rd and longs and our pass rush disappears on the road. Our run offense is the most reliable unit on the team, imo. Our O-line isn't a SB-caliber pass blocking unit by ANY stretch of the imagination, and we commit too many penalties. Our WR corps needs to develop some consistency, and we need better play from the QB position. We also need better playcalling.

    Those things above tell me that while our talent and our strengths indicate that we can make the postseason, where anything can happen, we're not quite yet a SB-caliber team just waiting for a QB to step in and make it happen. It's going to require improvement from all positions, together.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:39 am
  • Every 3 years thers's a new 4 year plan...
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:40 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Why did Carroll rush Wilson into the starting job? There was no need, let the guy sit, learn the league and in a year or two if Flynn doesn't work out you bring him in. I just never saw the reason to rush Wilson, and now we're paying for it with the worst passing offense in the league.


    Carroll had no choice, he opened up the competition and Wilson won when it counted, plus Flynn developed an arm issue (all be it questionable how bad). Even me as a Flynn supporter was able to concede that. ;)

    That said things have now changed and the question only re appears because of that. I don't even think you give Flynn the year or 2...just the 4-5 games you gave Wilson to really give a good comparison. They competed under terrible conditions. 13 Wr's many of which are not in the league, Lynch mostly unavailable, Rice and Baldwin unavailable ect. Now is the time see IMO.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:46 am
  • Verndog wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Why did Carroll rush Wilson into the starting job? There was no need, let the guy sit, learn the league and in a year or two if Flynn doesn't work out you bring him in. I just never saw the reason to rush Wilson, and now we're paying for it with the worst passing offense in the league.


    Carroll had no choice, he opened up the competition and Wilson won when it counted, plus Flynn developed an arm issue (all be it questionable how bad). Even me as a Flynn supporter was able to concede that.


    Errr.......yeah, not sold on the Flynn arm issue thing. To me that's a backdoor excuse Carroll can sneak out of when he's taking heat for his decision to start a rookie QB. "Well I had no choice people! Matt's got that bum elbow for not throwing for six straight weeks while holding a clipboard! Yeah, that's the ticket!"

    I also think it was a little naive of Carroll to put so much stock in Wilson's pre-season. Yes Wilson was great, but it was still the pre-season. No one tries, and no one schemes. Add in the fact that 2 out of Wilson's 3 pre-season games was against 2nd and 3rd stringers, most of which aren't even in the league anymore.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:51 am
  • As I started to read the OP I fugured you were going to go into a I was wrong about Wilson slant. I like your state of the franchise take that you took. We all need a reality check in that this is a process. Prior to the start of the season, I figured the Seahawks would be 2-2 after the first 4, got the record right, just not who they beat. I also looked at the schedule and figured if they can make it through the first half of the season at 4-4, then 10 or 12 wins is very likely. 5 of the last 8 are at home. road games at Miami (winnable), Chicago (tough) and Buffalo(winnable).
    I think you may be holding something back on your analysis of Wilson. You stated that he is doing things that you haven't seen him do before. Rookie growing pains? Probably
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:53 am
  • I totally accept the fact it's a 4-year plan. But, emotionally it makes me pout like a toddler. "B-b-b-b-but I want to win NOW!"
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:55 am
  • volsunghawk wrote:I don't think any "certainty" is here yet. I think we've made big strides, but we're still a work in progress.


    By certainty I mean there appears to be enough in place to make a run this year. The details obviously are not certain. Top 5 defense, top 5 RB, good special teams are certain at this point. We have a chance to win every game so far, certain. Offense being the question mark (including coaching yes), and point of discussion as what to do. IMO we need around a #20 or better O to win, and it's possible to get there.

    Agree on WIP, but all teams will always be a work in progress to some point though.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:08 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:But it's not, this team is built to compete for a Superbowl NOW, not in four years. We have all the other pieces in place, a top 5 defense, the #1 running attack in the league, and a very good special teams.


    I don't agree. I don't think our offensive line is ready to consistently pass-protect yet, and I don't think our receiving corps is nearly good enough. Most quarterbacks would be running into trouble in the passing game with those issues. We're not there yet.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:35 am
  • pehawk wrote:I totally accept the fact it's a 4-year plan. But, emotionally it makes me pout like a toddler. "B-b-b-b-but I want to win NOW!"


    And this pretty much sums up the state of things at the moment.

    I love how people can say in one breath that they want to be like the Patriots or the Ravens or the Steelers, only to advocate firing everyone and starting over in the next. Rebuilds like that take time and perhaps more importantly a little consistency.

    Everyone keeps stressing about how our window is *NOW*. Get outta here. Our window is not RIGHT NOW, it's right around the corner. Likely even next year. Hell, we might even be in a position to make a late season rush at the end of this year, but we need to let it all come together first. The herbs and spices are in place, just need to let it marinate. Have to give it some time to let the yeast rise. Additional generic cooking metaphor.

    We have lots of time. TONS. Marshawn will be 27 next year, that's at least 2 years of prime time left (and we have a very young and apparently very capable Bob Turbin sitting behind him). Earl Thomas, KJ Wright and James Carpenter are just babies at 23; they litterally have entire careers left. Ditto for Dick Sherman, Chancellor, Tate, McCoy and Okung who are all 24. Bobby Wagner and Bobby Turbin are only 22! Shit I have jerseys in my closet older than that! The only guys I'm even kinda worried about are Clemons and Browner, but Irvin appears to be getting it and Browner's style doesn't really depend on having blazing top speed so he might be able to keep it up into his 30's. Other than that... this is a seriously young team.

    So seriously, all this "OUR WINDOW IS NOW!! DOMINATE NOW!! SUPERBOWL NOW!!" bull shit just needs to frakkin stop. Get off the ledge, take a xanax and down it with a nice sharaz because you people are bug shit crazy and are going to give yourselves a stroke. Just hurry up and be patient. Like right now! I SAID BE PATIENT DAMMIT!!!
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:47 am
  • CANHawk wrote:
    pehawk wrote:I totally accept the fact it's a 4-year plan. But, emotionally it makes me pout like a toddler. "B-b-b-b-but I want to win NOW!"


    And this pretty much sums up the state of things at the moment.

    I love how people can say in one breath that they want to be like the Patriots or the Ravens or the Steelers, only to advocate firing everyone and starting over in the next. Rebuilds like that take time and perhaps more importantly a little consistency.

    Everyone keeps stressing about how our window is *NOW*. Get outta here. Our window is not RIGHT NOW, it's right around the corner. Likely even next year. Hell, we might even be in a position to make a late season rush at the end of this year, but we need to let it all come together first. The herbs and spices are in place, just need to let it marinate. Have to give it some time to let the yeast rise. Additional generic cooking metaphor.

    We have lots of time. TONS. Marshawn will be 27 next year, that's at least 2 years of prime time left (and we have a very young and apparently very capable Bob Turbin sitting behind him). Earl Thomas, KJ Wright and James Carpenter are just babies at 23; they litterally have entire careers left. Ditto for Dick Sherman, Chancellor, Tate, McCoy and Okung who are all 24. Bobby Wagner and Bobby Turbin are only 22! Shit I have jerseys in my closet older than that! The only guys I'm even kinda worried about are Clemons and Browner, but Irvin appears to be getting it and Browner's style doesn't really depend on having blazing top speed so he might be able to keep it up into his 30's. Other than that... this is a seriously young team.

    So seriously, all this "OUR WINDOW IS NOW!! DOMINATE NOW!! SUPERBOWL NOW!!" bull shit just needs to frakkin stop. Get off the ledge, take a xanax and down it with a nice sharaz because you people are bug shit crazy and are going to give yourselves a stroke. Just hurry up and be patient. Like right now! I SAID BE PATIENT DAMMIT!!!


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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:02 am
  • In the last 7 years, we have seen PLENTY of Super Bowl contenders that had both holes in their teams, and even lackluster records until they ramped it up in the last month of the season. Getting freaked out after one month just feels like it lacks vision.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:19 am
  • Agree with CANHawk - Pete would look pretty dumb if he built a defense that managed only a year or two of dominance. There are plenty of models around the league for recycling defenses cost-effectively; they'll figure it out. And the running game will hopefully have some longevity with Turbin around. So we have time.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:26 am
  • Everybody in this thread is RIGHT!! Now let's watch the games and see what happens!!
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:43 am
  • CANHawk wrote:
    pehawk wrote:I totally accept the fact it's a 4-year plan. But, emotionally it makes me pout like a toddler. "B-b-b-b-but I want to win NOW!"


    And this pretty much sums up the state of things at the moment.

    I love how people can say in one breath that they want to be like the Patriots or the Ravens or the Steelers, only to advocate firing everyone and starting over in the next. Rebuilds like that take time and perhaps more importantly a little consistency.

    Everyone keeps stressing about how our window is *NOW*. Get outta here. Our window is not RIGHT NOW, it's right around the corner. Likely even next year. Hell, we might even be in a position to make a late season rush at the end of this year, but we need to let it all come together first. The herbs and spices are in place, just need to let it marinate. Have to give it some time to let the yeast rise. Additional generic cooking metaphor.

    We have lots of time. TONS. Marshawn will be 27 next year, that's at least 2 years of prime time left (and we have a very young and apparently very capable Bob Turbin sitting behind him). Earl Thomas, KJ Wright and James Carpenter are just babies at 23; they litterally have entire careers left. Ditto for Dick Sherman, Chancellor, Tate, McCoy and Okung who are all 24. Bobby Wagner and Bobby Turbin are only 22! Shit I have jerseys in my closet older than that! The only guys I'm even kinda worried about are Clemons and Browner, but Irvin appears to be getting it and Browner's style doesn't really depend on having blazing top speed so he might be able to keep it up into his 30's. Other than that... this is a seriously young team.

    So seriously, all this "OUR WINDOW IS NOW!! DOMINATE NOW!! SUPERBOWL NOW!!" bull shit just needs to frakkin stop. Get off the ledge, take a xanax and down it with a nice sharaz because you people are bug shit crazy and are going to give yourselves a stroke. Just hurry up and be patient. Like right now! I SAID BE PATIENT DAMMIT!!!


    After the Arizona game I made a thread about "we will go 8-8 and miss the playoffs". Man was I trashed by many on this board. The next week I apologized about my statement. Not because I felt my comments were wrong, but that I didn't wait until my intended 4 game evaluation before making that thread.

    Well here we are 4 games in and my original thread seems just as relevant today as then. The only difference is I just don't post much now, and I drink wine while I watch and don't really get worked up over the end results. Because any way you wish to look at it, we are still a work in progress. I felt Flynn would have potentially expedited that process, but obviously PC doesn't agree. I personally don't believe the elbow issue one damn bit. But it's not for me to say, so I just will keep watching the games with my wine glass in hand. No one is getting me worked up over this season. Not with this current offense.

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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:48 am
  • Kearly...I know you don't like this sort of stuff, but thank you for a thoughtful, well articulated post. I always enjoy reading your thoughts and the reasoning behind them, even if I don't always necessarily agree. Your contributions are a nice contrast to the plethora of emotionally laden, shrill shouting matches found in abundance elsewhere on .net.

    I'm with you thinking we're sitting on a powder keg and can't wait to see how & when it plays out.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:53 am
  • Two things immediately jumped out at me in your synopsis Kip:

    "This team is talent overkill. It's a stick of dynamite soaked in kerosene. A quality quarterback is the match."
    .
    .
    .
    and
    .
    .
    .
    "This team is young and this team has almost everything you'd want outside of a great QB"



    Therein lies the rub man. The position is so ABSOLUTELY vital in sports that a good one can carry an otherwise mediocre team to the Super Bowl (see Brady, Tom and last year's Patriots) while a less than stellar QB will drag an otherwise good team into 8-8 land or at the best maybe a Wild Card round win. For example, though lot of people aren't going to like this, think Dave Kreig.....I loved Bone but I still say the Hawks win a couple of Super Bowls in the Knox era with a top flight QB. On the other hand, Hass had his best season in '07 and without it the Hawks don't even smell the playoffs. My rambling point is that no matter the years involved and no matter the plan, unless this regime finds the right QB, we are going to see a lot of 9-7, maybe 10-6 first round exits at the best and 8-8, 7-9 seasons at worst (the defense is too good to be any crappier than that). There's a reason Shanahan sold half his future for RGIII, cuz he felt the franchise guy is 3/4 of the battle, or 60% anyway. Is Wilson the truly great QB this franchise has NEVER had? Time will of course tell. I will say you have no idea how badly I want that to be the case because until this franchise finds him, I'm not sure there will be a Super Bowl "W".
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:54 am
  • well if pete carroll goes 7-9 for a third straight year then what improvements has he really made? we basically have a whole new team that is still mediocore. the whole league is getting better so yes are team is better than 2 years ago but so is the rest of the league. we need to take a bigger leap to get to the top. we need that elite quarterback plain and simple.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:59 am
  • Hawksfan76 wrote:well if pete carroll goes 7-9 for a third straight year then what improvements has he really made? we basically have a whole new team that is still mediocore. the whole league is getting better so yes are team is better than 2 years ago but so is the rest of the league. we need to take a bigger leap to get to the top. we need that elite quarterback plain and simple.


    And what if we don't get him? What if it's not Russ or Flynn? What if we draft a guy next year and he sucks?
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:00 am
  • Hawksfan76 wrote:well if pete carroll goes 7-9 for a third straight year then what improvements has he really made? we basically have a whole new team that is still mediocore. the whole league is getting better so yes are team is better than 2 years ago but so is the rest of the league. we need to take a bigger leap to get to the top. we need that elite quarterback plain and simple.


    The whole league is getting better? So everyone will have a winning record? How might I ask does that work?
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:01 am
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:
    Hawksfan76 wrote:well if pete carroll goes 7-9 for a third straight year then what improvements has he really made? we basically have a whole new team that is still mediocore. the whole league is getting better so yes are team is better than 2 years ago but so is the rest of the league. we need to take a bigger leap to get to the top. we need that elite quarterback plain and simple.


    And what if we don't get him? What if it's not Russ or Flynn? What if we draft a guy next year and he sucks?



    then we will remain a mediocore team.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:01 am
  • Hawksfan76 wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:
    Hawksfan76 wrote:well if pete carroll goes 7-9 for a third straight year then what improvements has he really made? we basically have a whole new team that is still mediocore. the whole league is getting better so yes are team is better than 2 years ago but so is the rest of the league. we need to take a bigger leap to get to the top. we need that elite quarterback plain and simple.


    And what if we don't get him? What if it's not Russ or Flynn? What if we draft a guy next year and he sucks?



    then we will remain a mediocore team.


    Right. Then what?
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:04 am
  • CANHawk wrote:
    Hawksfan76 wrote:well if pete carroll goes 7-9 for a third straight year then what improvements has he really made? we basically have a whole new team that is still mediocore. the whole league is getting better so yes are team is better than 2 years ago but so is the rest of the league. we need to take a bigger leap to get to the top. we need that elite quarterback plain and simple.


    The whole league is getting better? So everyone will have a winning record? How does how might I ask does that work?


    no they won't obviously but all the teams seem to be getting better and more competitive across the board so it all comes down to whether or not we have a quarterback to take us to the next level. i like the rest of our team but it comes down to the quarterback and maybe a bigtime receiver. whether it's wilson or flynn that can do this for us who knows but i feel that's where we stand between greatness and where we are now.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:10 am
  • Hawksfan76 wrote:
    CANHawk wrote:
    Hawksfan76 wrote:well if pete carroll goes 7-9 for a third straight year then what improvements has he really made? we basically have a whole new team that is still mediocore. the whole league is getting better so yes are team is better than 2 years ago but so is the rest of the league. we need to take a bigger leap to get to the top. we need that elite quarterback plain and simple.


    The whole league is getting better? So everyone will have a winning record? How does how might I ask does that work?


    no they won't obviously but all the teams seem to be getting better and more competitive across the board so it all comes down to whether or not we have a quarterback to take us to the next level. i like the rest of our team but it comes down to the quarterback and maybe a bigtime receiver. whether it's wilson or flynn that can do this for us who knows but i feel that's where we stand between greatness and where we are now.


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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:11 am
  • then we will remain a mediocore team.

    Right. Then what?


    then who knows, new coaches. different direction. same old seahawks finishing middle of the pack.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:11 am
  • To further my point above....I've said for the last year that Pete Carroll's future employment in the NFL is almost completely dependent on him finding the right QB for this team and I stand by that assertation. Because of the rules of the game nowdays favoring the passing game so completely I don't think you are SB caliber without the at least a top 10 QB.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:11 am
  • Too busy to type out what I really want to say now, but...

    ...what Can said, and what Montana agreed with.

    That is all.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:41 am
  • sorry Kearly, but pointing out what a great job they've done building this team isn't addressing the valid concerns people are having right now. No one is unhappy with their ability to build a team. We all Trust Pete and John when it comes to building this team. There are valid concerns, however, when it comes to playcalling (onsides kick anyone? 3rd and 2?). You can go back two years and see WTF? moments in Pete's playcalling which he later - admirably I might add - took the blame for.

    But the biggest concern is the choice of starting Wilson now. Maybe he'll one day be that QB we've all been waiting for. But a rookie has a lot to learn and it's best for him to sit out a year or two and get acclimated to the speed and technicality of the NFL. Flynn already did that. Flynn comes from a team known for producing good QB's. Flynn already proved he can play in a regular season game with success. Wilson should never have won the job. Pete should have KNOWN better. By giving Wilson the job Pete basically said this year was expendable. We'll take what we can get. But Pete overlooked two critical things no head coach should ever overlook: A rookie can get overwhelmed, shell shocked and develop bad habits if thrown into the fire before he's ready. Wilson needed to acclimate. He's already shown signs that he's regressing, just as you yourself pointed out. The other thing is that it takes time even for a guy who is ready to start, aka Flynn, to learn how to play efficiently day in and day out. Look at Hass. Sat out two years, got the starting job, sucked (150 yds per game sound familiar?) and got benched. Then, his second time around he took off.

    It takes time even for QB's who've been in the NFL a while to develop.

    Wilson should have been on the bench, learning, from the get go. Flynn should have been out there getting his hands dirty from the get go. That way, Flynn develops into a quality QB much sooner and Wilson, who's developmental track was always bound to be longer than Flynn's, can get valuable experience without costing the team games.

    Instead, Pete bypassed Flynn and put Wilson on the fast track. It was a mistake. Mistakes about who your starting QB should be are deadly in the NFL. Not just to the team, but to the coaches credibility. Combine that with craptastic playcalling in crucial moments and there aren't many who will retain faith in Pete no matter how fantastic he is at building a good team. Pete needs to let Flynn play. If Flynn can't cut it, worst thing that happens is he would have given Wilson time to regather himself, learn on the sidelines and have a fire lit underneath him to get better and reclaim his team. If Flynn succeeds, nobody cares anymore that Pete made a bad judgement call because he corrected it. If Flynn fails, everyone sees that Pete's judgement was correct and it was just a matter of him not really having ANY QB that was ready, but at least he now can go back to Wilson knowing that he left no stone unturned.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:48 am
  • SalishHawkFan wrote:sorry Kearly, but pointing out what a great job they've done building this team isn't addressing the valid concerns people are having right now. No one is unhappy with their ability to build a team. We all Trust Pete and John when it comes to building this team. There are valid concerns, however, when it comes to playcalling (onsides kick anyone? 3rd and 2?). You can go back two years and see WTF? moments in Pete's playcalling which he later - admirably I might add - took the blame for.

    But the biggest concern is the choice of starting Wilson now. Maybe he'll one day be that QB we've all been waiting for. But a rookie has a lot to learn and it's best for him to sit out a year or two and get acclimated to the speed and technicality of the NFL. Flynn already did that. Flynn comes from a team known for producing good QB's. Flynn already proved he can play in a regular season game with success. Wilson should never have won the job. Pete should have KNOWN better. By giving Wilson the job Pete basically said this year was expendable. We'll take what we can get. But Pete overlooked two critical things no head coach should ever overlook: A rookie can get overwhelmed, shell shocked and develop bad habits if thrown into the fire before he's ready. Wilson needed to acclimate. He's already shown signs that he's regressing, just as you yourself pointed out. The other thing is that it takes time even for a guy who is ready to start, aka Flynn, to learn how to play efficiently day in and day out. Look at Hass. Sat out two years, got the starting job, sucked (150 yds per game sound familiar?) and got benched. Then, his second time around he took off.

    It takes time even for QB's who've been in the NFL a while to develop.

    Wilson should have been on the bench, learning, from the get go. Flynn should have been out there getting his hands dirty from the get go. That way, Flynn develops into a quality QB much sooner and Wilson, who's developmental track was always bound to be longer than Flynn's, can get valuable experience without costing the team games.

    Instead, Pete bypassed Flynn and put Wilson on the fast track. It was a mistake. Mistakes about who your starting QB should be are deadly in the NFL. Not just to the team, but to the coaches credibility. Combine that with craptastic playcalling in crucial moments and there aren't many who will retain faith in Pete no matter how fantastic he is at building a good team. Pete needs to let Flynn play. If Flynn can't cut it, worst thing that happens is he would have given Wilson time to regather himself, learn on the sidelines and have a fire lit underneath him to get better and reclaim his team. If Flynn succeeds, nobody cares anymore that Pete made a bad judgement call because he corrected it. If Flynn fails, everyone sees that Pete's judgement was correct and it was just a matter of him not really having ANY QB that was ready, but at least he now can go back to Wilson knowing that he left no stone unturned.


    All your rhetoric boils down to the oldest and least true argument in the NFL. We aren't winning because the backup is being squandered on the bench. The idea that the backup needs to start so we can see what we got is tired, and bullshit to the core. It automatically assumes that the coach/staff has not seen enough in camp, practice, and preseason to make the right decision.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:52 am
  • Scottemojo wrote:All your rhetoric boils down to the oldest and least true argument in the NFL. We aren't winning because the backup is being squandered on the bench. The idea that the backup needs to start so we can see what we got is tired, and bullshit to the core. It automatically assumes that the coach/staff has not seen enough in camp, practice, and preseason to make the right decision.


    But the backup has more exper... er... he's more mobile and can esca... er... he's been in Carroll's system longe... er... he's got a stronger ar... er... he's three inches taller, damnit!
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:54 am
  • It DOES assume the staff didn't make the right decision. Making the decision to start a rookie QB in his first year is almost invariably the WRONG decision if you have ANYONE capable of starting instead. Look at Peytons first year. Look at any elite QB's rookie year when he was thrown into the fire. The teams that do that HAVE to do that. Choice isn't an option. They picked so high in the draft because they already sucked and needed a QB.

    But when you've got THREE QB's, one with extensive experience - albeit he'd never improve past mediocre - one with excellent credentials and potential who'd already shown he can succeed in the NFL and one who's a wet behind the ears QB you took in the third round, you're making a mistake to start him.

    The results of that mistake are so obvious that even Kearly sees it despite how hyped up he's been about Wilson. The guy is regressing.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:55 am
  • Do you not remember everyone saying the same thing about Whitehurst? Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:56 am
  • Scottemojo wrote:
    SalishHawkFan wrote:sorry Kearly, but pointing out what a great job they've done building this team isn't addressing the valid concerns people are having right now. No one is unhappy with their ability to build a team. We all Trust Pete and John when it comes to building this team. There are valid concerns, however, when it comes to playcalling (onsides kick anyone? 3rd and 2?). You can go back two years and see WTF? moments in Pete's playcalling which he later - admirably I might add - took the blame for.

    But the biggest concern is the choice of starting Wilson now. Maybe he'll one day be that QB we've all been waiting for. But a rookie has a lot to learn and it's best for him to sit out a year or two and get acclimated to the speed and technicality of the NFL. Flynn already did that. Flynn comes from a team known for producing good QB's. Flynn already proved he can play in a regular season game with success. Wilson should never have won the job. Pete should have KNOWN better. By giving Wilson the job Pete basically said this year was expendable. We'll take what we can get. But Pete overlooked two critical things no head coach should ever overlook: A rookie can get overwhelmed, shell shocked and develop bad habits if thrown into the fire before he's ready. Wilson needed to acclimate. He's already shown signs that he's regressing, just as you yourself pointed out. The other thing is that it takes time even for a guy who is ready to start, aka Flynn, to learn how to play efficiently day in and day out. Look at Hass. Sat out two years, got the starting job, sucked (150 yds per game sound familiar?) and got benched. Then, his second time around he took off.

    It takes time even for QB's who've been in the NFL a while to develop.

    Wilson should have been on the bench, learning, from the get go. Flynn should have been out there getting his hands dirty from the get go. That way, Flynn develops into a quality QB much sooner and Wilson, who's developmental track was always bound to be longer than Flynn's, can get valuable experience without costing the team games.

    Instead, Pete bypassed Flynn and put Wilson on the fast track. It was a mistake. Mistakes about who your starting QB should be are deadly in the NFL. Not just to the team, but to the coaches credibility. Combine that with craptastic playcalling in crucial moments and there aren't many who will retain faith in Pete no matter how fantastic he is at building a good team. Pete needs to let Flynn play. If Flynn can't cut it, worst thing that happens is he would have given Wilson time to regather himself, learn on the sidelines and have a fire lit underneath him to get better and reclaim his team. If Flynn succeeds, nobody cares anymore that Pete made a bad judgement call because he corrected it. If Flynn fails, everyone sees that Pete's judgement was correct and it was just a matter of him not really having ANY QB that was ready, but at least he now can go back to Wilson knowing that he left no stone unturned.


    All your rhetoric boils down to the oldest and least true argument in the NFL. We aren't winning because the backup is being squandered on the bench. The idea that the backup needs to start so we can see what we got is tired, and bullshit to the core. It automatically assumes that the coach/staff has not seen enough in camp, practice, and preseason to make the right decision.


    Or the starter is on the bench, and the backup is the mistake starter. Just depends on how you wish to look at things. Who is to say which is right or wrong at this point?

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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:00 pm
  • iigakusei wrote:Do you not remember everyone saying the same thing about Whitehurst? Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?


    Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:02 pm
  • Thanks for another great read kearly. I agree pretty much on every point.

    I'm trying my best not to be dissapointed in this offense right now. Life is short afterall and every year our offense blows chunks is another year of seahawk fandom we never get back but.... I still firmly believe that they are building this team in the right direction and I'm loving the players that are in place for the most part.

    I will add though, that if the offense doesn't show a gradual improvement over the course of this year, and a much larger improvement next, that Carroll and company need to be on the hot seat if not fired out right by then.

    If they can show improvement week by week this year, I can still be "all in".
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:02 pm
  • kf3339 wrote:
    iigakusei wrote:Do you not remember everyone saying the same thing about Whitehurst? Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?


    Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.


    Is that you, Michael Lombardi? If so, please say why Flynn is the better option, not just "HOLY SHORT QUARTERBACK, BATMAN!"
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:07 pm
  • Whitehurst is not Flynn. I was the only person on this board who was outraged at what we gave up to get Whitehurst. Everyone was so giddy about P&J's first draft that I got ripped into left and right for criticizing that move. Whitehurst had done NOTHING to make anyone think he'd ever amount to anything.

    Flynn is not Whitehurst. Flynn HAS done things to show he can succeed in the NFL, just ask Bart Starr, Bret Favre and Aaron Rodgers. He set records none of them hold. All Flynn didn't do was show up early enough and leave late enough to get on Petes good side, then he was asked to play too conservatively in the two first preseason games. Wilsons style was always going to look great in the preseason where he's not up against anything but vanilla defenses. But when the training wheels went on, Flynn didn't shine.

    Lots of great players don't shine during preseason and kick butt during the regular season. They even had a show on it on Sportscenter one time.

    No, Pete chose Wilson because Pete's "unconventional wisdom" and all the grief he took for picking him and Pete's inability to move past his college football years (onsides kicks, fancy plays that only work in college, etc.) blinded him to the fact that Wilson would not have the same success in the regular season. Pete has too much college 'rah rah" in him to get past how exciting Wilson looked vs vanilla defenses and second stringers to realize that Flynn might not look as flashy, but he's got the skillset to start in the NFL right NOW.

    For the record: I'd rather see Wilson succeed. I was never very hyped on Flynn. His passes are wobbly, he doesn't have a strong arm. And I think the Seahawks can still make the playoffs despite Wilson's learning curve holding them back.

    But Wilson shouldn't be thrust into the fire so soon. He's just not ready and he'll regress. He might never realize his potential BECAUSE he's starting now. Flynn IS ready. Flynn should have started all along.
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Re: The 4 year plan
Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:09 pm
  • kf3339 wrote:
    iigakusei wrote:Do you not remember everyone saying the same thing about Whitehurst? Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?


    Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.


    I guess that is why there was so much demand for him in the off-season? That Detroit game was a one-off - of that I am positive. Look, I think Flynn is a good QB, but I trust the coaches that see these guys every day in practice to make the right decision.
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