I'll give Kearly some props for this writeup. I've been critical of his (in my opinion) view of the Hawks, and not looking at reality of this team during some of his posts.

knownone wrote:Did I miss something? why are people so down of Russell Wilson?

I think it is because many feel that starting the rookie is the reason the offense is so conservative. They think the reason the WRs are not performing is because Wilson is failing to identify or hesitant in throwing to the correct WR. The defense and special teams performance has ignited the idea that this team is ready now to contend for a deep run if the QB position was manned by a player who has more understanding of defensive looks.

The big push by local/national and team fans to give Wilson a chance in the unorthodox QB competition and the red hot response to his play left his detractors ready to pounce when the inevitable rookie ramp-up proceeded. Russellmania promoted the kid to a fever pitch declaration of finding a QBOTF and resulted in a fan divide, as those who backed Flynn found themselves having to defend Flynn from denigration.

You find a 3-way split on the QBs now, with those in the middle just wanting the best and most ready QB to be playing now. Each side has some valid points and concerns. The move late in the pre-season after it seemed that Pete had gone with Flynn was accepted as fair though surprising. The impact of Flynn's elbow flare-up has not been vetted well by our press.

This is an interesting quote, though from PFW with Arkush who claimed there was a JS and PC divide, so I take it with a grain of salt:

That's a difficult question to answer, according to team sources, considering that the tendinitis in Flynn’s right elbow that played a major part in him losing the job to Wilson in the preseason is an injury that Flynn has never had to deal with before.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2012/10/05/seahawks-remain-concerned-about-flynns-elbow

A different circumstance, personal talent and team personnel but A Rodgers, after sitting behind Favre on the bench had a rough 1st year starting so it is no guarantee that Flynn would be gangbusters his first year starting. Cannot offer much analysis on this since I am not very familiar with all that went into the Packers make-up at that time. Just an idle thought.

Hawks46 wrote:So, in your opinion Kearly, are Wilson's shortcomings something that he needs to work through by physically playing, or would he have been better served sitting behind Flynn and watching for a year ?

I've always been a big proponent of sitting your rookies, but there are times (like the Panthers last year) where you have nothing to lose and you might as well.

Let's not kid ourselves: if Flynn takes us deep into the playoffs this year, nobody will want him benched in 2013 just because Wilson's waiting. Flynn isn't old; this isn't a GB situation with a young understudy waiting to replace an over-the-hill veteran. If Flynn can win as the starter, people will want every drop squeezed out of him. He'll remain there for years until he sucks, and Wilson won't see a lick of meaningful playing time until then (short of injury) and will probably be gone by the time his chance comes.

And perhaps that's not so bad for us. I'm merely saying that the whole "let Flynn win now and maybe RW will be the guy later" argument strikes me as pretty hollow. It's one QB or the other, IMO.

CANHawk wrote:

knownone wrote:Did I miss something? why are people so down of Russell Wilson?

Apparently he's short.

Yeah, that's what this is,some people dislliking "short people". Way to go!

It's not about the fact we have yet to win a game via our qb putting up points. It's not about the games being won so far in spite of our current rookie qb. It's not about sketchy, risky, late, ball delivery to receivers who most blindly label "awful" every 3rd thread to cover for the current qb heart throb on the forum. It's not about losing two of the most winnable division games where had even sub-par qb play been in effect we could be seeing W's there. It's not about the fact a shorter, rookie qb should be holding a clipboard in his first 2yrs while getting his game together and being ready for the talent out there.

No, its about disliking short people.

Oh and knowone, yes personally I'd say you're missing something.

Guess PFW loves talking about our QB position. More from them on what they claim to be hearing from inside the building

Tech Worlds wrote:What if Carroll would have said it would take 6 years to win.?

Sounds like a built in excuse to fail if you ask me.

What if he'd said 10? Talk about job security!

Good point Montana. I guess I was kind of thinking that they thought Wilson was good enough to win now, and could be the QBOTF, so if Flynn played well enough, you could trade him for a good pick at the end of the year, draft another decent QB, and start Wilson, while continuing the QB progression at backup that JC likes.

Thing is, I hear a lot of people throwing our WRs under the bus. Saying they get no separation, etc. I see a lot of people like Rodgers and Romo throwing to WRs and TEs that aren't wide open, making throws into tight windows. I also remember a lot of people throwing Jackson under the bus for the same thing; waiting for a guy to be wide open and not seeing much else.

One of Flynn's strengths was that he knows how to throw guys open. I thought at the beginning of the year this would be his strength that would help us now. Yes, Wilson's mobility would be better suited behind our OL. Yes, Flynn would probably take more sacks (although that's looking debatable). But for guys that don't get separation, but are in the right place, you throw to the open spot in the zone, and let the WR go get it. Flynn also has much better deep accurace at this point in his career than Wilson does, and I'd say he's just as good if not better in play action. PC even admitted he was farther ahead in the playbook and reading defenses, and also making presnap adjustments.

I also had suspicions they were making up the tendinitis with Flynn. If he's hurt, there's a reason he's benched, and when you have to replace Wilson, it would be because Flynn is now healthy. I'm not so sure if it's true now, but in looking at Flynn's body language on the sidelines, he looks more unhappy than hurt. Another thing that seems weird....Flynn is healthy enough to throw for the scout team, but not enough to take 1st team reps ?? That seems weird to me.

Hawks46 wrote:One of Flynn's strengths was that he knows how to throw guys open. I thought at the beginning of the year this would be his strength that would help us now. Yes, Wilson's mobility would be better suited behind our OL. Yes, Flynn would probably take more sacks (although that's looking debatable). But for guys that don't get separation, but are in the right place, you throw to the open spot in the zone, and let the WR go get it. Flynn also has much better deep accurace at this point in his career than Wilson does, and I'd say he's just as good if not better in play action. PC even admitted he was farther ahead in the playbook and reading defenses, and also making presnap adjustments.

PC has also said that he would be limiting the playbook as much with Flynn as he is with Wilson. Ergo, Flynn would not be allowed to be throwing into tight coverages, because that's what Wilson is being barred from.

As far as the rest, Flynn's strengths would win him some plays that Wilson is not winning, but the O-line situation would be leaving him in a lot of 3rd-down-and-long situations that Wilson is salvaging. It's a deadly tradeoff. Sacks are a danger because they're a fumble risk, and the pressure that creates them also becomes an interception risk. Flynn has shown a high turnover rate in his limited play.

I actually think of Wilson like Marshawn Lynch in his first game in Seattle, against the Bears. He had terrible stats, but he fought hard for yardage and turned what would have been damaging stops for losses with Julius Jones, into no-gains or small chunks. Didn't seem like a big deal until you realized that Matt Hasselbeck was enjoying a lot more manageable 3rd-and-5/6/7 situations as a result, instead of constant 3rd-and-10+'s. That played a big role in the offense's ability to string drives together. You think Wilson's bad on 3rd down and 6? Try Flynn behind a porous weak-side O-line on 3rd-and-10.

MontanaHawk05 wrote:

Hawks46 wrote:One of Flynn's strengths was that he knows how to throw guys open. I thought at the beginning of the year this would be his strength that would help us now. Yes, Wilson's mobility would be better suited behind our OL. Yes, Flynn would probably take more sacks (although that's looking debatable). But for guys that don't get separation, but are in the right place, you throw to the open spot in the zone, and let the WR go get it. Flynn also has much better deep accurace at this point in his career than Wilson does, and I'd say he's just as good if not better in play action. PC even admitted he was farther ahead in the playbook and reading defenses, and also making presnap adjustments.

PC has also said that he would be limiting the playbook as much with Flynn as he is with Wilson. Ergo, Flynn would not be allowed to be throwing into tight coverages, because that's what Wilson is being barred from.
There is a huge difference between throwing receivers open and throwing into tight windows, in fact they are nearly the opposite. Throwing receivers open is what leads to YAC which is another area we are strugling in.

As far as the rest, Flynn's strengths would win him some plays that Wilson is not winning, but the O-line situation would be leaving him in a lot of 3rd-down-and-long situations that Wilson is salvaging. It's a deadly tradeoff. Sacks are a danger because they're a fumble risk, and the pressure that creates them also becomes an interception risk. Flynn has shown a high turnover rate in his limited play.

The o-line play is not nearly as bad as you think either. Wilson is not taking three step drops and hitting receivers in stride, he is having to drop deep into the pocket to aide his vision and giving DC's absolutely no reason not to send the house after him. Those three step drops Flynn was using in the Detroit game were responsible for YAC and backing the opponents defense off the LOS. That is how you burn defenses for cheating the box, add in a nice deep ball every now and then and you keep defenses on their heals. Another team with a less than stellar O-line is the Packers. Rogers has been a pinata behind that line.

I actually think of Wilson like Marshawn Lynch in his first game in Seattle, against the Bears. He had terrible stats, but he fought hard for yardage and turned what would have been damaging stops for losses with Julius Jones, into no-gains or small chunks. Didn't seem like a big deal until you realized that Matt Hasselbeck was enjoying a lot more manageable 3rd-and-5/6/7 situations as a result, instead of constant 3rd-and-10+'s. That played a big role in the offense's ability to string drives together. You think Wilson's bad on 3rd down and 6? Try Flynn behind a porous weak-side O-line on 3rd-and-10.

Other notes, people need to stop with the Whitehurst comparison, it just makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about.

Anyone on here that wants to put more importance on a preseason game than the real games is a complete moron.

And anyone who is justifying to give up wins now because they are afraid Wilson might not get another chance are no better than the suck for Luck crowd. If Wilson is anywhere near what we hope he is then he will get his shot. His work ethic and leadership will force it. Yes I interpret not giving Flynn a chance when Wilson is ranked as the worst QB in the NFL right now as willing to give up wins. You aren't willing to even look because your afraid that he may prevent Wilson from becoming our hero but the fact is the only way that happens ifs if Flynn is winning. How is this a problem?

RichNhansom wrote:And anyone who is justifying to give up wins now because they are afraid Wilson might not get another chance are no better than the suck for Luck crowd. If Wilson is anywhere near what we hope he is then he will get his shot. His work ethic and leadership will force it. Yes I interpret not giving Flynn a chance when Wilson is ranked as the worst QB in the NFL right now as willing to give up wins. You aren't willing to even look because your afraid that he may prevent Wilson from becoming our hero but the fact is the only way that happens ifs if Flynn is winning. How is this a problem?

He isn't costing us any games, so how is anyone giving up wins?

We're a few misfortunate plays away from 4-0, Wilson is not the issue here.

RichNhansom wrote:Yes I interpret not giving Flynn a chance when Wilson is ranked as the worst QB in the NFL right now as willing to give up wins. You aren't willing to even look because your afraid that he may prevent Wilson from becoming our hero but the fact is the only way that happens if its Flynn is winning. How is this a problem?

Well, I did say "perhaps that's not so bad for us" a couple of posts ago. But I do have reasons for preferring Wilson as a project over Flynn as a project.

However, since you still haven't learned to stop twisting others' words in order to shed favorable light on your own stance, I'll simply end our conversation with a hearty "what Throwdown said".

Not to change the subject much but,
Let’s slow down a bit on the great Green Bay quarterback machine…

Since Matt Hasselbeck left Green Bay here’s the list of great QB’s developed there…
Aaron Rodgers drafted to be (hopefully at the time) Brett Favre’s replacement and
Matt Flynn who we know little about…

That’s been since 2001, eleven years, and they are so good at developing great talent their back up QB is now 27-year-old Graham Harrell who in his four preseason games this year threw 45-of-78 passes for 484 yds a per game average of 121 yds.

Unless Flynn makes a mark as a starter Green Bay hasn’t sent out a marketable QB since the Holmgren/Wolf era and I could argue there where only two, Mark Brunell and Matt Hasselbeck.

So let’s stop with the great QB system over there, they have had two great QBs and developed two more in the last 20 years. Their system is no better than say New England’s or Philadelphia’s…

Throwdown wrote:

RichNhansom wrote:And anyone who is justifying to give up wins now because they are afraid Wilson might not get another chance are no better than the suck for Luck crowd. If Wilson is anywhere near what we hope he is then he will get his shot. His work ethic and leadership will force it. Yes I interpret not giving Flynn a chance when Wilson is ranked as the worst QB in the NFL right now as willing to give up wins. You aren't willing to even look because your afraid that he may prevent Wilson from becoming our hero but the fact is the only way that happens ifs if Flynn is winning. How is this a problem?

He isn't costing us any games, so how is anyone giving up wins?

We're a few misfortunate plays away from 4-0, Wilson is not the issue here.

Some people would disagree with this assessment. Even an average passing offense and we are 4-0

SO CORRECT, edogg.

edogg23 wrote:

Throwdown wrote:

RichNhansom wrote:And anyone who is justifying to give up wins now because they are afraid Wilson might not get another chance are no better than the suck for Luck crowd. If Wilson is anywhere near what we hope he is then he will get his shot. His work ethic and leadership will force it. Yes I interpret not giving Flynn a chance when Wilson is ranked as the worst QB in the NFL right now as willing to give up wins. You aren't willing to even look because your afraid that he may prevent Wilson from becoming our hero but the fact is the only way that happens ifs if Flynn is winning. How is this a problem?

He isn't costing us any games, so how is anyone giving up wins?

We're a few misfortunate plays away from 4-0, Wilson is not the issue here.

Some people would disagree with this assessment. Even an average passing offense and we are 4-0

By average do you mean like New England who averages 294 yds a game and lost to Az by 8 or Chicago who averages 206 yds a game and beat St Louis by 17?

Or maybe you mean like Philadelphia who averages 272 yds a game and lost to Az. by 17 instead of St Louis who averages 183 yds a game and beat them easily?

So listen, I too have been a silent advocate for Flynn to start from the get go, but to think he will be the savior for this team is a little naïve and to think any of us know more about how to win football games than Carroll is a little assuming to say the least…

FidelisHawk wrote:
By average do you mean like New England who averages 294 yds a game and lost to Az by 8 or Chicago who averages 206 yds a game and beat St Louis by 17?

Or maybe you mean like Philadelphia who averages 272 yds a game and lost to Az. by 17 instead of St Louis who averages 183 yds a game and beat them easily?

So listen, I too have been a silent advocate for Flynn to start from the get go, but to think he will be the savior for this team is a little naïve and to think any of us know more about how to win football games than Carroll is a little assuming to say the least…

Yes, I think that is exactly what he means.

With our defense and running game, if we would have averaged 294 yds a game against Az and 206 yds against St. Louis , we would have beat the shit out of both of them.

I will go a step further. With a slightly LESS than average passing attack, we are 4-0. Anything BUT the worst passing team in the entire NFL, we are probably 3-1.

Okay, (I promised myself I wasn’t going to do this but here goes) surely nobody expects Flynn to be the second coming of Tom Brady or Jay Cutler (god forbid) or even Sam Bradford do they?

I contend if our top ten defense had stopped Kevin Kolb for one drive they would have won as well or if our “special” special team had recovered a onside kick we’d be talking differently, if only our league leading rusher had rushed for just ten more yds in either game we would be 4 and 0 just as easily.

The point is “we are what we thought we were” a young team, that’s improving every game, and has yet to reach it’s potential. Wishing we had a top ten passing game, to go with our top ten rushing game, and our top ten special teams at this stage of our development is a fool’s dream at best. Yet for a few more breaks here or there we could all be singing Russell’s praises, instead of caring about many yards he’s averaging.

But for an extra first down here or there, or a third down stop, or one more special teams play we wouldn’t be calling for Bevell’s or Carroll’s or the towel boy’s head, we’d be basking in our lustrous glory at being undefeated while playing a rookie QB. If only "wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas" all the way to the playoffs.

Now let me make this perfectly clear, I was on the start Flynn bandwagon from the beginning and said so here. But all this speculation and palaver on how Flynn would somehow change the situation we’re in is ludicrous, we don’t have Payton Manning sitting on the bench. The chances of picking up someone else’s backup QB and have him be dramatically better than your old starting QB are very slim. Unless his name’s Brett Favre the odds are you’ll only get a serviceable QB for a few years at best.

Shame on my fellow Hawk fans for playing the backup QB card by the fourth game, you guys must kill at Three Card Monte…

I think when i go to my next job that I am just going to tell my boss from the get go that it will be 4 years before my job performance meets expectations.

Tech Worlds wrote:I think when i go to my next job that I am just going to tell my boss from the get go that it will be 4 years before my job performance meets expectations.

Yeah. Your current boss has already figured that out about you.

Tech Worlds wrote:I think when i go to my next job that I am just going to tell my boss from the get go that it will be 4 years before my job performance meets expectations.

Sneer all you want. The 49ers are pretty happy right now.

MontanaHawk05 wrote:

Tech Worlds wrote:I think when i go to my next job that I am just going to tell my boss from the get go that it will be 4 years before my job performance meets expectations.

Sneer all you want. The 49ers are pretty happy right now.

Hell ya they are. Coach walks in year one and wins. We may have to do something like that in the near future.

Tech Worlds wrote:

MontanaHawk05 wrote:

Tech Worlds wrote:I think when i go to my next job that I am just going to tell my boss from the get go that it will be 4 years before my job performance meets expectations.

Sneer all you want. The 49ers are pretty happy right now.

Hell ya they are. Coach walks in year one and wins. We may have to do something like that in the near future.

You know what I meant.

Tech Worlds wrote:I think when i go to my next job that I am just going to tell my boss from the get go that it will be 4 years before my job performance meets expectations.

Well if you were rebuilding the World Trade Center or the Alaska Pipeline and told your boss you’d be done in one year, you’d probably get the same reaction as if you told an NFL GM you were going to rebuild his team in one year…

Odds are they get a nice chuckle and you don’t get the job…

By the way, now that you’ve moved from GF where are we going to have that beer at???

Screw four years,
this Defense is ready now
this special teams is ready now
if you want "we don't need touchdowns just don't turn it over" offense bring in #15
but Wilson is better than that if you take the reigns off.

Bump....from 2012. Wilson's rookie year. The Seahawks 2-2. Fans freaking out because Flynn isn't playing.

Great bumpage.

Team's come a long way since then. I kind of hate these thread resurrections, though.

I still am wondering if Pete Carroll should be on the hot seat.

Tech Worlds wrote:I still am wondering if Pete Carroll should be on the hot seat.

He should. At least this Sunday. Gonna be gdam cold.

Kearly, this isn't fair. You gave your thoughts and they were fair. You just didn't count on our boy to actually get it in year four. Enjoy it you deserve it. Ignore the haters because I do.

Just re-read this thread.

Easy for me to remind myself why you're my favourite poster here Scott.

themunn wrote:Just re-read this thread.

Easy for me to remind myself why you're my favourite poster here Scott.

I did skim. So what's up? I mean I knew he was HoF from the start like Tyler Lockett given I actually watched both in person. So please inform me given I'm not a football guru.

Being a Seahawks fan right now is eerily similar to being a Pittsburgh fan in the 1970's. Just ask my brothers. Big time drafts and more coming.

Definitely fun reading through this thread from 35k feet high on my way to Minnesota. Really entertaining and how different we all think. I was very excited for picking up Russ. I became his fan from the preseason game we played against Kansas City on the road. I was thinking finally we have someone who can throw the ball and on target with an awesome arm. Then games like against GB Pattiots the Hail Mary, the throw to Siney Rice, those were the ones that made me a solid believer in Russ. Lucky to have him, lucky to be a Seahawks fan.

MizzouHawkGal wrote:

themunn wrote:Just re-read this thread.

Easy for me to remind myself why you're my favourite poster here Scott.

I did skim. So what's up? I mean I knew he was HoF from the start like Tyler Lockett given I actually watched both in person. So please inform me given I'm not a football guru.

Being a Seahawks fan right now is eerily similar to being a Pittsburgh fan in the 1970's. Just ask my brothers. Big time drafts and more coming.

I'm not quite sure what the question is here, but Scott's always been a great poster, and him keeping a level head and addressing everyone's concerns with great points and opinions was a perfect example.

themunn wrote:

MizzouHawkGal wrote:

themunn wrote:Just re-read this thread.

Easy for me to remind myself why you're my favourite poster here Scott.

I did skim. So what's up? I mean I knew he was HoF from the start like Tyler Lockett given I actually watched both in person. So please inform me given I'm not a football guru.

Being a Seahawks fan right now is eerily similar to being a Pittsburgh fan in the 1970's. Just ask my brothers. Big time drafts and more coming.

I'm not quite sure what the question is here, but Scott's always been a great poster, and him keeping a level head and addressing everyone's concerns with great points and opinions was a perfect example.

I got you. I thought it was directed to me. Scottemojo is among the best and level headed. That's why I told you I did in fact skim. I wasn't totally sure your post was directed at me so I felt I needed to explain my position a bit.

This thread shows it's a good thing we are not the ones in charge of the team. Even though some arguments for Flynn made sense it still would have meant we wouldn't have won a Superbowl and would probably have been pretty mediocre right now.

I wonder what 2016 thread will be revived in 2020 that sounds absolutely crazy then.

Patience is the most difficult thing is sports.

And I am not any kind of expert. But thanks for the nice words.

I will share what my thought were, and why.

I disliked Flynn as our QB intensely, even the day after his huge game for GB I said some stupid team is going to pay that guy a lot of money. I watched his Detroit game over and over and despite the numbers, saw a couple of bad habits, and posted such, and got a bit roasted by some for it. Conversely, through preseason, Russ showed a quick release and could make plays without being in the gun. After the opening loss to the Cards, I was higher than ever about the future. I was 6 rows back in the endzone where we could not score a TD to win that game, and saw Russ put an outgunned offense in position to win, then saw him give players chances to catch tds that they could not quite catch. We lost, but the tools were plain.



I now subscribe to the idea that while Flynn was brought in to compete, he also served a perfect smokescreen to pick Russell. I also gained a ton of respect for Pete, who endured a lot of second guessing for sticking with Russ the first half of that season.

Anyone remember the miserable look on Flynn's face during a postgame celebration? IIRC, he got the game ball for being in victory formation or something like that. Everyone else is happy, and he looks like a bird shit on his lip. Pete has mastered the art of subtley being a a dick to guys who don't really buy in, and that was one of those moments. I knew Flynn was gone after the year right then.

Flynn's game against Detroit was the six most overrated touchdowns in NFL history.

Scottemojo wrote:Anyone remember the miserable look on Flynn's face during a postgame celebration? IIRC, he got the game ball for being in victory formation or something like that. Everyone else is happy, and he looks like a bird shit on his lip. Pete has mastered the art of subtley being a a dick to guys who don't really buy in, and that was one of those moments. I knew Flynn was gone after the year right then.

I don't remember that, but I do remember Flynn's face on the sideline at KC in the preseason. Dude knew he was totally screwed.