I'll give Kearly some props for this writeup. I've been critical of his (in my opinion) view of the Hawks, and not looking at reality of this team during some of his posts.
_________________ "A superstar can win any game; however, a team can win every game".
drdiags
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:20 am
* The Doc *
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:33 am Posts: 7818 Location: Covington, Washington
knownone wrote:
Did I miss something? why are people so down of Russell Wilson?
I think it is because many feel that starting the rookie is the reason the offense is so conservative. They think the reason the WRs are not performing is because Wilson is failing to identify or hesitant in throwing to the correct WR. The defense and special teams performance has ignited the idea that this team is ready now to contend for a deep run if the QB position was manned by a player who has more understanding of defensive looks.
The big push by local/national and team fans to give Wilson a chance in the unorthodox QB competition and the red hot response to his play left his detractors ready to pounce when the inevitable rookie ramp-up proceeded. Russellmania promoted the kid to a fever pitch declaration of finding a QBOTF and resulted in a fan divide, as those who backed Flynn found themselves having to defend Flynn from denigration.
You find a 3-way split on the QBs now, with those in the middle just wanting the best and most ready QB to be playing now. Each side has some valid points and concerns. The move late in the pre-season after it seemed that Pete had gone with Flynn was accepted as fair though surprising. The impact of Flynn's elbow flare-up has not been vetted well by our press.
This is an interesting quote, though from PFW with Arkush who claimed there was a JS and PC divide, so I take it with a grain of salt:
Quote:
That's a difficult question to answer, according to team sources, considering that the tendinitis in Flynn’s right elbow that played a major part in him losing the job to Wilson in the preseason is an injury that Flynn has never had to deal with before.
A different circumstance, personal talent and team personnel but A Rodgers, after sitting behind Favre on the bench had a rough 1st year starting so it is no guarantee that Flynn would be gangbusters his first year starting. Cannot offer much analysis on this since I am not very familiar with all that went into the Packers make-up at that time. Just an idle thought.
_________________ "The Seahawks are now known league wide as the team sooooooo badass and smashmouth and hard hitting that they couldn't even go thru their own practices without laying smack down on fools." - JSeahawks
MontanaHawk05
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:00 am
* 17Power Blogger *
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:46 am Posts: 10842
Hawks46 wrote:
So, in your opinion Kearly, are Wilson's shortcomings something that he needs to work through by physically playing, or would he have been better served sitting behind Flynn and watching for a year ?
I've always been a big proponent of sitting your rookies, but there are times (like the Panthers last year) where you have nothing to lose and you might as well.
Let's not kid ourselves: if Flynn takes us deep into the playoffs this year, nobody will want him benched in 2013 just because Wilson's waiting. Flynn isn't old; this isn't a GB situation with a young understudy waiting to replace an over-the-hill veteran. If Flynn can win as the starter, people will want every drop squeezed out of him. He'll remain there for years until he sucks, and Wilson won't see a lick of meaningful playing time until then (short of injury) and will probably be gone by the time his chance comes.
And perhaps that's not so bad for us. I'm merely saying that the whole "let Flynn win now and maybe RW will be the guy later" argument strikes me as pretty hollow. It's one QB or the other, IMO.
Did I miss something? why are people so down of Russell Wilson?
Apparently he's short.
Yeah, that's what this is,some people dislliking "short people". Way to go!
It's not about the fact we have yet to win a game via our qb putting up points. It's not about the games being won so far in spite of our current rookie qb. It's not about sketchy, risky, late, ball delivery to receivers who most blindly label "awful" every 3rd thread to cover for the current qb heart throb on the forum. It's not about losing two of the most winnable division games where had even sub-par qb play been in effect we could be seeing W's there. It's not about the fact a shorter, rookie qb should be holding a clipboard in his first 2yrs while getting his game together and being ready for the talent out there.
No, its about disliking short people.
Oh and knowone, yes personally I'd say you're missing something.
Last edited by hawkfan1975 on Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
drdiags
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:03 am
* The Doc *
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:33 am Posts: 7818 Location: Covington, Washington
Guess PFW loves talking about our QB position. More from them on what they claim to be hearing from inside the building
_________________ "The Seahawks are now known league wide as the team sooooooo badass and smashmouth and hard hitting that they couldn't even go thru their own practices without laying smack down on fools." - JSeahawks
Zebulon Dak
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:16 am
* The Producer *
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:57 pm Posts: 12428 Location: King In The North
Tech Worlds wrote:
What if Carroll would have said it would take 6 years to win.?
Sounds like a built in excuse to fail if you ask me.
What if he'd said 10? Talk about job security!
_________________ Tanzania¹²
Hawks46
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:24 pm
NET Veteran
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:01 pm Posts: 2611
Good point Montana. I guess I was kind of thinking that they thought Wilson was good enough to win now, and could be the QBOTF, so if Flynn played well enough, you could trade him for a good pick at the end of the year, draft another decent QB, and start Wilson, while continuing the QB progression at backup that JC likes.
Thing is, I hear a lot of people throwing our WRs under the bus. Saying they get no separation, etc. I see a lot of people like Rodgers and Romo throwing to WRs and TEs that aren't wide open, making throws into tight windows. I also remember a lot of people throwing Jackson under the bus for the same thing; waiting for a guy to be wide open and not seeing much else.
One of Flynn's strengths was that he knows how to throw guys open. I thought at the beginning of the year this would be his strength that would help us now. Yes, Wilson's mobility would be better suited behind our OL. Yes, Flynn would probably take more sacks (although that's looking debatable). But for guys that don't get separation, but are in the right place, you throw to the open spot in the zone, and let the WR go get it. Flynn also has much better deep accurace at this point in his career than Wilson does, and I'd say he's just as good if not better in play action. PC even admitted he was farther ahead in the playbook and reading defenses, and also making presnap adjustments.
I also had suspicions they were making up the tendinitis with Flynn. If he's hurt, there's a reason he's benched, and when you have to replace Wilson, it would be because Flynn is now healthy. I'm not so sure if it's true now, but in looking at Flynn's body language on the sidelines, he looks more unhappy than hurt. Another thing that seems weird....Flynn is healthy enough to throw for the scout team, but not enough to take 1st team reps ?? That seems weird to me.
MontanaHawk05
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:20 pm
* 17Power Blogger *
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:46 am Posts: 10842
Hawks46 wrote:
One of Flynn's strengths was that he knows how to throw guys open. I thought at the beginning of the year this would be his strength that would help us now. Yes, Wilson's mobility would be better suited behind our OL. Yes, Flynn would probably take more sacks (although that's looking debatable). But for guys that don't get separation, but are in the right place, you throw to the open spot in the zone, and let the WR go get it. Flynn also has much better deep accurace at this point in his career than Wilson does, and I'd say he's just as good if not better in play action. PC even admitted he was farther ahead in the playbook and reading defenses, and also making presnap adjustments.
PC has also said that he would be limiting the playbook as much with Flynn as he is with Wilson. Ergo, Flynn would not be allowed to be throwing into tight coverages, because that's what Wilson is being barred from.
As far as the rest, Flynn's strengths would win him some plays that Wilson is not winning, but the O-line situation would be leaving him in a lot of 3rd-down-and-long situations that Wilson is salvaging. It's a deadly tradeoff. Sacks are a danger because they're a fumble risk, and the pressure that creates them also becomes an interception risk. Flynn has shown a high turnover rate in his limited play.
I actually think of Wilson like Marshawn Lynch in his first game in Seattle, against the Bears. He had terrible stats, but he fought hard for yardage and turned what would have been damaging stops for losses with Julius Jones, into no-gains or small chunks. Didn't seem like a big deal until you realized that Matt Hasselbeck was enjoying a lot more manageable 3rd-and-5/6/7 situations as a result, instead of constant 3rd-and-10+'s. That played a big role in the offense's ability to string drives together. You think Wilson's bad on 3rd down and 6? Try Flynn behind a porous weak-side O-line on 3rd-and-10.
One of Flynn's strengths was that he knows how to throw guys open. I thought at the beginning of the year this would be his strength that would help us now. Yes, Wilson's mobility would be better suited behind our OL. Yes, Flynn would probably take more sacks (although that's looking debatable). But for guys that don't get separation, but are in the right place, you throw to the open spot in the zone, and let the WR go get it. Flynn also has much better deep accurace at this point in his career than Wilson does, and I'd say he's just as good if not better in play action. PC even admitted he was farther ahead in the playbook and reading defenses, and also making presnap adjustments.
PC has also said that he would be limiting the playbook as much with Flynn as he is with Wilson. Ergo, Flynn would not be allowed to be throwing into tight coverages, because that's what Wilson is being barred from. There is a huge difference between throwing receivers open and throwing into tight windows, in fact they are nearly the opposite. Throwing receivers open is what leads to YAC which is another area we are strugling in.
As far as the rest, Flynn's strengths would win him some plays that Wilson is not winning, but the O-line situation would be leaving him in a lot of 3rd-down-and-long situations that Wilson is salvaging. It's a deadly tradeoff. Sacks are a danger because they're a fumble risk, and the pressure that creates them also becomes an interception risk. Flynn has shown a high turnover rate in his limited play.
The o-line play is not nearly as bad as you think either. Wilson is not taking three step drops and hitting receivers in stride, he is having to drop deep into the pocket to aide his vision and giving DC's absolutely no reason not to send the house after him. Those three step drops Flynn was using in the Detroit game were responsible for YAC and backing the opponents defense off the LOS. That is how you burn defenses for cheating the box, add in a nice deep ball every now and then and you keep defenses on their heals. Another team with a less than stellar O-line is the Packers. Rogers has been a pinata behind that line.
I actually think of Wilson like Marshawn Lynch in his first game in Seattle, against the Bears. He had terrible stats, but he fought hard for yardage and turned what would have been damaging stops for losses with Julius Jones, into no-gains or small chunks. Didn't seem like a big deal until you realized that Matt Hasselbeck was enjoying a lot more manageable 3rd-and-5/6/7 situations as a result, instead of constant 3rd-and-10+'s. That played a big role in the offense's ability to string drives together. You think Wilson's bad on 3rd down and 6? Try Flynn behind a porous weak-side O-line on 3rd-and-10.
Other notes, people need to stop with the Whitehurst comparison, it just makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about.
Anyone on here that wants to put more importance on a preseason game than the real games is a complete moron.
And anyone who is justifying to give up wins now because they are afraid Wilson might not get another chance are no better than the suck for Luck crowd. If Wilson is anywhere near what we hope he is then he will get his shot. His work ethic and leadership will force it. Yes I interpret not giving Flynn a chance when Wilson is ranked as the worst QB in the NFL right now as willing to give up wins. You aren't willing to even look because your afraid that he may prevent Wilson from becoming our hero but the fact is the only way that happens ifs if Flynn is winning. How is this a problem?
_________________ "cheating", Eddie D. pled to a FELONY to avoid prison and paid players under the table. Brent Jones was paid 500k the year after he stopped playing for "services" in the 90's.. Of course, there is Carmen Policy also
Throwdown
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:09 pm
* NET Baller *
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:02 am Posts: 14810 Location: Graham, WA
RichNhansom wrote:
And anyone who is justifying to give up wins now because they are afraid Wilson might not get another chance are no better than the suck for Luck crowd. If Wilson is anywhere near what we hope he is then he will get his shot. His work ethic and leadership will force it. Yes I interpret not giving Flynn a chance when Wilson is ranked as the worst QB in the NFL right now as willing to give up wins. You aren't willing to even look because your afraid that he may prevent Wilson from becoming our hero but the fact is the only way that happens ifs if Flynn is winning. How is this a problem?
He isn't costing us any games, so how is anyone giving up wins?
We're a few misfortunate plays away from 4-0, Wilson is not the issue here.
_________________ 3elieve
MontanaHawk05
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:17 pm
* 17Power Blogger *
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:46 am Posts: 10842
RichNhansom wrote:
Yes I interpret not giving Flynn a chance when Wilson is ranked as the worst QB in the NFL right now as willing to give up wins. You aren't willing to even look because your afraid that he may prevent Wilson from becoming our hero but the fact is the only way that happens if its Flynn is winning. How is this a problem?
Well, I did say "perhaps that's not so bad for us" a couple of posts ago. But I do have reasons for preferring Wilson as a project over Flynn as a project.
However, since you still haven't learned to stop twisting others' words in order to shed favorable light on your own stance, I'll simply end our conversation with a hearty "what Throwdown said".
Not to change the subject much but, Let’s slow down a bit on the great Green Bay quarterback machine…
Since Matt Hasselbeck left Green Bay here’s the list of great QB’s developed there… Aaron Rodgers drafted to be (hopefully at the time) Brett Favre’s replacement and Matt Flynn who we know little about…
That’s been since 2001, eleven years, and they are so good at developing great talent their back up QB is now 27-year-old Graham Harrell who in his four preseason games this year threw 45-of-78 passes for 484 yds a per game average of 121 yds.
Unless Flynn makes a mark as a starter Green Bay hasn’t sent out a marketable QB since the Holmgren/Wolf era and I could argue there where only two, Mark Brunell and Matt Hasselbeck.
So let’s stop with the great QB system over there, they have had two great QBs and developed two more in the last 20 years. Their system is no better than say New England’s or Philadelphia’s…
_________________ "Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis." Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe. (St. Augustine of Hippo)
"Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim." (“Ovid”)
edogg23
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:37 pm
NET Starter
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 8:30 pm Posts: 364
Throwdown wrote:
RichNhansom wrote:
And anyone who is justifying to give up wins now because they are afraid Wilson might not get another chance are no better than the suck for Luck crowd. If Wilson is anywhere near what we hope he is then he will get his shot. His work ethic and leadership will force it. Yes I interpret not giving Flynn a chance when Wilson is ranked as the worst QB in the NFL right now as willing to give up wins. You aren't willing to even look because your afraid that he may prevent Wilson from becoming our hero but the fact is the only way that happens ifs if Flynn is winning. How is this a problem?
He isn't costing us any games, so how is anyone giving up wins?
We're a few misfortunate plays away from 4-0, Wilson is not the issue here.
Some people would disagree with this assessment. Even an average passing offense and we are 4-0
bestfightstory
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:41 pm
* Glitter over Knives *
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:13 pm Posts: 8511
SO CORRECT, edogg.
_________________ "Some people here have been groomed to accept mediocrity and lame ducks, I'm on board with the vibrato!" -SouthSoundHawk "BFS is kicking ass in here." -kearly (8/9/2013)
FidelisHawk
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:53 am
NET Starter
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:39 am Posts: 325
edogg23 wrote:
Throwdown wrote:
RichNhansom wrote:
And anyone who is justifying to give up wins now because they are afraid Wilson might not get another chance are no better than the suck for Luck crowd. If Wilson is anywhere near what we hope he is then he will get his shot. His work ethic and leadership will force it. Yes I interpret not giving Flynn a chance when Wilson is ranked as the worst QB in the NFL right now as willing to give up wins. You aren't willing to even look because your afraid that he may prevent Wilson from becoming our hero but the fact is the only way that happens ifs if Flynn is winning. How is this a problem?
He isn't costing us any games, so how is anyone giving up wins?
We're a few misfortunate plays away from 4-0, Wilson is not the issue here.
Some people would disagree with this assessment. Even an average passing offense and we are 4-0
By average do you mean like New England who averages 294 yds a game and lost to Az by 8 or Chicago who averages 206 yds a game and beat St Louis by 17?
Or maybe you mean like Philadelphia who averages 272 yds a game and lost to Az. by 17 instead of St Louis who averages 183 yds a game and beat them easily?
So listen, I too have been a silent advocate for Flynn to start from the get go, but to think he will be the savior for this team is a little naïve and to think any of us know more about how to win football games than Carroll is a little assuming to say the least…
_________________ "Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis." Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe. (St. Augustine of Hippo)
"Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim." (“Ovid”)
By average do you mean like New England who averages 294 yds a game and lost to Az by 8 or Chicago who averages 206 yds a game and beat St Louis by 17?
Or maybe you mean like Philadelphia who averages 272 yds a game and lost to Az. by 17 instead of St Louis who averages 183 yds a game and beat them easily?
So listen, I too have been a silent advocate for Flynn to start from the get go, but to think he will be the savior for this team is a little naïve and to think any of us know more about how to win football games than Carroll is a little assuming to say the least…
Yes, I think that is exactly what he means.
With our defense and running game, if we would have averaged 294 yds a game against Az and 206 yds against St. Louis , we would have beat the shit out of both of them.
I will go a step further. With a slightly LESS than average passing attack, we are 4-0. Anything BUT the worst passing team in the entire NFL, we are probably 3-1.
FidelisHawk
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:46 am
NET Starter
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:39 am Posts: 325
Okay, (I promised myself I wasn’t going to do this but here goes) surely nobody expects Flynn to be the second coming of Tom Brady or Jay Cutler (god forbid) or even Sam Bradford do they?
I contend if our top ten defense had stopped Kevin Kolb for one drive they would have won as well or if our “special” special team had recovered a onside kick we’d be talking differently, if only our league leading rusher had rushed for just ten more yds in either game we would be 4 and 0 just as easily.
The point is “we are what we thought we were” a young team, that’s improving every game, and has yet to reach it’s potential. Wishing we had a top ten passing game, to go with our top ten rushing game, and our top ten special teams at this stage of our development is a fool’s dream at best. Yet for a few more breaks here or there we could all be singing Russell’s praises, instead of caring about many yards he’s averaging.
But for an extra first down here or there, or a third down stop, or one more special teams play we wouldn’t be calling for Bevell’s or Carroll’s or the towel boy’s head, we’d be basking in our lustrous glory at being undefeated while playing a rookie QB. If only "wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas" all the way to the playoffs.
Now let me make this perfectly clear, I was on the start Flynn bandwagon from the beginning and said so here. But all this speculation and palaver on how Flynn would somehow change the situation we’re in is ludicrous, we don’t have Payton Manning sitting on the bench. The chances of picking up someone else’s backup QB and have him be dramatically better than your old starting QB are very slim. Unless his name’s Brett Favre the odds are you’ll only get a serviceable QB for a few years at best.
Shame on my fellow Hawk fans for playing the backup QB card by the fourth game, you guys must kill at Three Card Monte…
_________________ "Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis." Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe. (St. Augustine of Hippo)
"Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim." (“Ovid”)
Tech Worlds
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:48 am
* Capt'n Dom *
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:40 am Posts: 8715 Location: Granite Falls, WA
I think when i go to my next job that I am just going to tell my boss from the get go that it will be 4 years before my job performance meets expectations.
_________________
bestfightstory
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:58 am
* Glitter over Knives *
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:13 pm Posts: 8511
Tech Worlds wrote:
I think when i go to my next job that I am just going to tell my boss from the get go that it will be 4 years before my job performance meets expectations.
Yeah. Your current boss has already figured that out about you.
_________________ "Some people here have been groomed to accept mediocrity and lame ducks, I'm on board with the vibrato!" -SouthSoundHawk "BFS is kicking ass in here." -kearly (8/9/2013)
MontanaHawk05
Post subject: Re: The 4 year plan
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:09 am
* 17Power Blogger *
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:46 am Posts: 10842
Tech Worlds wrote:
I think when i go to my next job that I am just going to tell my boss from the get go that it will be 4 years before my job performance meets expectations.
Sneer all you want. The 49ers are pretty happy right now.
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