Can the Hawks afford Irvin to be a project?

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  • I think pressure up the middle was even more important than another edge rusher and that's why they got Jason Jones. The combo of Jones with Clemons may improve the rush a lot this year while Bruce gets up to speed.

    We will need to draft a younger version of Jason in the next year or so as well, in
    my opinion.
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  • sc85sis wrote:I think pressure up the middle was even more important than another edge rusher and that's why they got Jason Jones. The combo of Jones with Clemons may improve the rush a lot this year while Bruce gets up to speed.

    We will need to draft a younger version of Jason in the next year or so as well, in
    my opinion.


    Maybe we already have them in Sruggs and Howard, Both look promising prospects. I taking the wait and see approach. It's easy to get discouraged with what we saw on Sunday. But we went all last year with a mediocre pass rush and still was a top 10 defense. In a few weeks I think we'll start to hit our stride as a team.
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  • pehawk wrote:
    KCHawkGirl wrote:@Jkent82, spot on just because you and others think our window is open I don't and I'm confident JS/PC are far nearer my stance than yours.


    Bitter pill to swallow (but I'm man enough to swallow).

    Ha! I'm just trying to make sense of the pick and it's the only thing that makes any sense to me. I really like him but the timing is all wrong if your team is at anymore than darkhorse status. DE's are rarely ever immediate hits. But his speed have ever seen anything like it? He just needs a bit of technique and 15-20 lbs of muscle and he may change the position much like L.T. did for linebackers or Ronnie Lott for safeties. That may be a bit of an overreach but with the direction the NFL is going it's plausible.
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  • pehawk wrote:I know this is way premature, but as my bitches like to point out, I do all things premature (especially when shooting from the hip).

    I find myself salivating at the thought of a Peppers or Mathews type on the Seahawks roster. Not only do they change field position, it's as if their playing offense from a defensive position. Their rush, changes everything. And, yeah, would help an offense with a rookie QB and questionable receivers.

    This is year 3, and if this year doesn't work, it COULD be hotseat time for Carroll. He has to know that, so I'm not sure this staff can necessarily afford Irvin to be a project. Even if he lives up to the draft day haters prognostication, 10 sacks, that'd change so many things.

    You cant have a losing season, and a draft day pick that drew tons of head-tilts, can you?

    Man, they need to manufacture ways to get him going. He's got speed, tenacity and at least in college a knack for finding QB's. There's GOT TO a way to utilize that, outside of a hand down, dont ya think?



    This should have just been the first line and I'd facebook like it.

    But to the rest of it, they made it clear there was a 4 year plan for this organization. Whether they meant we would be a winning team by then, or it'll take 4 years to become that is unknown. We are on year 3 with a promising young, fiery, and mostly unexperienced defense. It took Carroll a few years to get USC where he wanted it, even if college is a different monster than the NFL, but in respect to recruiting and getting 'what you want' takes time.' IMO there is no way Carroll is on the hot seat this season unless we go 0-16. Paul Allen knew there was a 4 year plan and I imagine he will trust the braintrust til that point. Purely going off talent this team should be a 9-10 win team without any outside factors like lucky breaks. As much as I think we should have steamrolled the Cards, they are 8-2 in their last 10 games, which is tied with only the Pats.

    Bruce Irvin on paper is exactly what this defense needed. PURE speed from a hybrid LE/DE type player. His main knock was he didn't have the 'NFL pass rush repertoire' and relied on just being more athletic. So far that seems what he still has, but he is young and very moldable. Every interview points out he is willing to work and improve, and I guess as fans that's all we can hope. We just need to trust we have the coaching to make him elevate his play to what he can be. DE is a tough position for young players since they are going against for the most part, the best linemen in the league, and it is hard to get a JPP or Aldon Smith to immediately make an impact. I personally wanted Chandler Jones because he seemed to be incredibly NFL ready and to this point seems to be just that for the Pats. But they draft very well for value every year, so it is expected.

    All in all, a 7-9 team shouldn't just take a shot on a player in the first round for hopes on what he could be. We are unorthodox in a sense where we plug players in to a spot that they can succeed more than any other standard position, and I'm sure the hope for this season is Bruce can learn, improve, and still see a lot of playing time while making some impact. If he can consistently make pressure this year even if it doesn't result in sacks, I think that is enough to warrent a first round draft pick for him.
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  • pehawk wrote:
    JKent82 wrote:Only safe low first round picks guys! Would JPP been a bad pick? Is Vernon Ghoulston a bad pick? Wait no not what I meant!

    Half Kidding aside, I don't think they can afford him to be a project that gives zero value this year. I think that will hurt the team quite a bit. Assuming no one else steps up as the other edge threat.

    If he can be fairly effective in part time play by the second half of the year, it's fine in my opinion for him to be a bit of a non factor now. Not that's what I'd like but more realistic expectations. I think it's still early to have a good sense of what he's gonna bring this year. Hopefully some stuff clicks and he goes off a few times. It might take a bit though.

    Pass rushers take time, they might have wanted to bring a vet as insurance, maybe even Mark Anderson if he proves healthy.

    I think you take the guy with higher upside, I feel while we may feel this is OUR window starting right now, but I feel Pete and John are still very much looking ahead. We have to have a pass rusher waiting in the wings for when Clem is gone. While maybe other picks may have provided more immediate value, Bruce provides potentially huge value at a key position.

    So yeah, the Hawks can afford it. Maybe it hurts them at times this year, but I think the end benefit, assuming he turns out, is good enough.


    See Montana, he got it. Maybe sound out the words?

    When the Giants took JPP, didn't they have Strahan, Osi, and a freak line already?


    They did, but just because you don't have the front line strength doesn't mean you shouldn't take the better long term player. I mean you have to weigh things out in terms of immediate impact, overall risk, ceiling, etc, but I'd rather go this route.

    Personally I much prefer a long term "willing to take risks" FO than a short term "Win now/keep my job" GM, unless you are legitimately in the closing of your proverbial window. I think things just turn out better generally.

    Now I do think Pete and John thought Irvin could impact this year, they said as much. So we probably need to see him do that to at least fill their expectations for this year. At the end of the year I don't think one can say "He's a defensive end, they take a long time to develop, adjust to NFL etc etc" as an excuse for him if he is a complete failure in his role this year. While it's okay not to write him off as a bust and it's a valid response to his career chances, it's not for what he was supposed to be this year. So that would be a disappointment in my opinion.

    I'm optimistic he figures it out sooner than later. He's got the tools and the coaching to do it. Course he will probably be in some gray area of production and everyone will have something to say come next year's off season.
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  • KCHawkGirl wrote:DE's are rarely ever immediate hits. But his speed have ever seen anything like it?


    I think this here is key. DE's are hard to hit on in general, particularly speed rushers. They gotta take shots to get one as it's tough to win without one. And even more so when your are trying to win via the "elite" defense ground game route.
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  • Yes, since we started a rookie QB, which tells me they think that rookie is the future, this basically becomes a project year with hopes that we can still win big while we go thru the rookie lumps. So we can allow Irvin some time to grow as well.

    If Flynn was our starter i'd say the answer was no, as then it woudl be more of a win now type scenario.

    I have a feeling that by the end of the season both Wilson and Irvin will be playing like first round picks. I'm also pretty certain we might have to take some lumps along the way and i'm ok with that. Half step back now for 5 steps forward next season.

    And I really hope that Carroll allows them to both keep playing thru any lumps that might arise.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:I may be only an amateur psychologist, but I doubt the thread would exist if you weren't worried that he will be a project. ;)

    FWIW, I expect Irvin to get more chances against Dallas' offense. Romo doesn't like the quick dink-and-dunk stuff that Arizona used to dodge our edge rush; he prefers to wind up and look for a 400-yard touchdown on every play.


    Okay, fair point. I kid because I know you can take it, Buttercup.
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  • They can afford a project about as well as they can afford a game winning drive by the likes of Kolb while they left irvin on the field.
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  • I thought that abomination of a dog avatar was horrible but Kiper seriously? Are you trying to make everyone want to kill you or just being a contrarian for the lolz? Now that I have been here a minute I get your whole modus operandi but there are limits.

    "Loser" symbol or not that man knows less about football than my non-sports liking Aunt.
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  • Verndog wrote:They can afford a project about as well as they can afford a game winning drive by the likes of Kolb while they left irvin on the field.


    No, wrong yet again, We had the game winning drive, but did not execute.
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  • I didn't bother reading everyones posts, but the answer is NO, NEVER, HELL NO! !st round picks should be first year starters that make some sorta impact on your team. Unless it's a QB that you wanna understudy. Save the projects for the 5th round and later.
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  • Largent80 wrote:
    Verndog wrote:They can afford a project about as well as they can afford a game winning drive by the likes of Kolb while they left irvin on the field.


    No, wrong yet again, We had the game winning drive, but did not execute.

    Why let facts stand in the way of another chance to be a "Debbie Downer". I admit that I'm pragmatic and want results before I fully jump in but Verndog is ridiculous and does it on purpose in my opinion.
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  • This is pretty much the same reason I made that "trade - phone call" thread a couple weeks ago. There might have been some opportunity out there, particularly with the Eagles, to add a pass rusher to this roster as insurance for Bruce Irvin. Much of the season is still ahead of us, but we are more than 1 game in. We've had 4 preseason games of Irvin to look at and lots of TC reports. The expectation was that Irvin probably would struggle in 2012, but there was hope that he could be an Aldon Smith/Von Miller story. So far, it appears very likely that he's going to be the former, not the latter. And that's a problem, because Seattle has banked on Irvin to be the latter- as evidenced by how they provided no competition whatsoever for the Raheem Brock role.

    Seattle said that pass rush was their top priority during the offseason. They repeated this over and over. Before and after the draft, Carroll talked about finding his Von Miller. Seattle had chances to sign or trade for other pass rushers and didn't. I look at that body of evidence, and I think it's pretty clear that they didn't plan on Irvin waiting until year 4 to start contributing.

    I say this as a huge pre-draft fan of Irvin's, and a huge fan of this FO, but I think that calculation was a big gamble, and it already looks like it is a gamble they will lose. Irvin has special talent as a pass rusher, but he might be even more raw than project-passrusher-posterchild JPP was in terms shedding blocks. In TC, he was getting stonewalled by Alex Barron. In the preseason, he was a total non-factor until the final (and most meaningless) preseason game, a game against Oakland, who is terrible and wasn't even really trying in that game. Now we've seen him be a non-factor against AZ, who had a terrible and injury depleted line and a terrible QB.

    Does this mean Irvin will bust? Of course not. Does this mean that we can definitively say that Irvin will not be Von Miller right away? No, we can't even say that, because stranger things have happened. Can we say that it's looking doubtful that he'll be Von Miller? Yeah, that's probably safe to say at this point, as early as it is. He looks years away from being a complete pass rusher right now.

    Can Seattle afford for Irvin to be a project? No, not really. As said above, Carroll's language and expectations were that the pass rush was a major problem- a top priority. It's not something he hopes is fixed in a few years- it's something he wants fixed NOW. It's hard to criticize Carroll though. He had no real shot at Mario Williams in FA. Cliff Avril was franchised. And who knows, maybe John Schneider did make some phone calls around the 53 cut down looking for pass rush help. I'd be a little surprised if he didn't. My only complaint was that Seattle passed on Vinny Curry in round 2, who looks an awful lot like Chris Clemons jr. on tape (fittingly, he went to the Eagles). But Seattle needed a fast MLB, and they had the 3rd rounder reserved for Wilson, so it is what it is.

    If this problem continues all season, I hope people realize that we might see two offseasons in a row where pass rush is the top priority. Carroll won't rest until this issue is fixed. As a defensive mind, and as a former DB, he appreciates pass rush more than most. Irvin has a ton of ability, but I think we might have to wait a painfully long amount of time before he cashes in on it.
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  • I do not mind them trying to get him going, as long as they do not do it on our 3 yard line on 3rd down and put him in for Red Bryant who just batted down a pass on 2nd down, and then have AZ run to his side and score a TD when if Red was in it would have been stopped!! Use Irvin on 3rd and long only! I mean honestly I like big red being in there on 3rd downs, he seems quicker this year and he is a ball batting beast!!!!
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  • Good post kearly. I don't necessarily agree with Irvin being the Alex Smith of pass rushers but like you said, stranger things have happened. I don't know why, but I immediately thought of Derrick Burgess when you made that comparison.

    I think Irvin will be stellar this season. Maybe 4 or 5 sacks. Some might be disappointed, but I fully expect Scruggs and Howard to put up solid production in the sack department as well (3 or 4 from Scruggs, 2 from Howard possibly) so hopefully that'll keep the pass rush from being completely anemic.
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  • Too soon to tell. Going to need to see him in some different scenarios against some different competition before I pass anything resembling judgement. I seem to remember being all bunged up with dread after the first few games last year when Clem had bugger all for sacks, but he did pretty alright last year when it was all said and done. Some scenarios and schemes freeze some pass rushers out, and some scenarios and schemes give them opportunities to shine. have to see him against a few different looks before I can have anything resembling an opinion.

    I'll get back to you with an opinion of some sort after week four. Hopefully he has about 4 or 5 sacks by that point and it'll be a big Bruce Irvin love-in around here by then.
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  • NYCoug wrote:Good post kearly. I don't necessarily agree with Irvin being the Alex Smith of pass rushers but like you said, stranger things have happened. I don't know why, but I immediately thought of Derrick Burgess when you made that comparison.

    I think Irvin will be stellar this season. Maybe 4 or 5 sacks. Some might be disappointed, but I fully expect Scruggs and Howard to put up solid production in the sack department as well (3 or 4 from Scruggs, 2 from Howard possibly) so hopefully that'll keep the pass rush from being completely anemic.



    well no wonder that alex smith was such a bad quarterback for so long..that was the real reason.
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  • First post guys. Happy to be starting now. My belief is that yes the hawks can wait a half season or a full one for irvin to light a spark and learn his techniques. I mean, if the hawks play D like they did last year would u give up on PC's plan for it? We have clemons still (looks super legit) and up graded innterior pressure with jones.

    I love everyone's armageddon spirit...AFTER ONE GAME! it was predicted and fully implemented by everyone. chill lets see what happens in a few weeks.

    OR WE CAN OVERREACT TO THAT RIGHT NOW -_-'
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  • two words... mario f'ing williams
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  • Do you think he would have any more success if he was in more of a Mathews role? Like a outside 3-4 linebacker, move him around, or even stack him over Clem at times. I feel like the coach need to get more creative with him, they are just lining him up and hoping his speed works. Maybe his football IQ will improve over the season and the game will slow down for him. At this point he looks to be overwhelmed and over thinking.could be why the coaches are keeping it simple for him.
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  • Standing him up sounds like a good idea I also like the idea of Clemons and Irvin stacked. That could be a potent combo off the edge.
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  • Gareth87 wrote:Do you think he would have any more success if he was in more of a Mathews role? Like a outside 3-4 linebacker, move him around, or even stack him over Clem at times. I feel like the coach need to get more creative with him, they are just lining him up and hoping his speed works. Maybe his football IQ will improve over the season and the game will slow down for him. At this point he looks to be overwhelmed and over thinking.could be why the coaches are keeping it simple for him.


    I really like this idea. However I think the real issue is that Irvin does not know how to engage blockers. If you watch Mathews he does a great job using his hands once hes engaged with the linemen. It looks like Irvin just tries to run by them and if doesn't work he quits.
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  • Gareth87 wrote:Do you think he would have any more success if he was in more of a Mathews role? Like a outside 3-4 linebacker, move him around, or even stack him over Clem at times. I feel like the coach need to get more creative with him, they are just lining him up and hoping his speed works. Maybe his football IQ will improve over the season and the game will slow down for him. At this point he looks to be overwhelmed and over thinking.could be why the coaches are keeping it simple for him.


    That's a great point. It's almost like he is back at West Virginia being put on the line trying to outmuscle 310 pound behemoths. He's not ready for that. He should be in more of a Wide 9 look to give his speed an advantage.
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  • I don't think he is a project, a project normally is not set to start game 1 and continue to be in the starting roster. He is a rookie and will have to go through some downs before he figures thinks out, I think he will be just fine after another 4 or 5 games, he has the physical tools, he just need to understand the speed and tune his mind, when to rush, whether it is on snap or delayed rush, but he is definitely a fast guy. He has only potential to go up, how soon is the question, that we will have to see.
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  • FlyingGreg wrote:I'm with you...you don't take "projects" in the first round.

    Mario Williams?
    Look, I understand where you guys are coming from to some degree, I too would like to see a glimps or two from the kid showing why PC & JS made the decide to take him (he wouldn't have made it to the second round), so apparently they scouted him pretty hard, and felt he was going to be solid,,Maybe not right away, but somewhere down the road.
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  • I think maybe we can. I went back today and watched the defense during the second half of last week's game, and I noticed something surprising. Our four man pass rushing was actually working. With one or two exceptions, Irvin was not a part of that. With Clemons on one side and Bryant on the other, we were actually getting a solid amount of pressure. When I was trying to remember the game, I thought we had been sending blitzes regularly, but that wasn't true.

    For the record, while Irvin had one near sack (which caused the interception that Clemons' offsides penalty nulled), he definitely didn't get regular pressure. Everyone already knew that, but it leads to my next point: I'm not sure we can afford for Irvin to not be a project. If they try to force the issue with him, I think we'll be worse off than if they rely on the actual disruption that Bryant causes. I'm okay with Irvin getting his reps, but at this point I think it would be better if they keep him on the bench in the red zone and other critical situations. There's no reason they couldn't work him in as he progresses. The guy actually has some potential to hurry the QB so it's not a total waste as long as we're not talking about do-or-die situations.
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  • Yes, we can afford a "project." Of course, that depends a bit on how you define the word.

    IIRC, Irvin was picked specifically to play the LEO position. Since we re-signed Clemons, that means that our LOTF can step back a bit from the spotlight of being a mid first round pick and take some time to learn the pro game. In fact, he'll not be playing LEO much while Clem is healthy. He'll be playing other roles he's not as well suited for physically. I trust that the coaching staff are looking for ways to use Irvin productively.

    Sacks come in bunches and streaks, on the team and on the individual level. Clem has been our best pass rusher for two years had 11 sacks per season. That means that he did not get a sack in every game. Even the best sack artists in NFL history seldom (never?) got a sack in every game of a season. The fact that Irvin didn't get a sack against AZ does not concern me much. I think he'll come around, and soon. I expect a half dozen sacks from him this year, at least.
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  • Loaded question.

    A lot of how you might respond is how you expect a "project" to perform in his rookie season. If you expect it to be subpar from Week 1 through Week 16, then no, I imagine you can't afford that type of project.

    If you expect struggles early on and then growth which leads to promising production later in the season, then yeah, I think that's a project you take on if the potential payoff is big.
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  • If Irvin has potential at OLB, you can expect him to end up there once a real DE is found. Carroll is always moving guys around and tweaking things. He enabled Bryant, experimented with Curry, adjusted to Mebane's strengths (he looked good in Arizona), all kinds of stuff. If Irvin's a Clay Matthews type waiting to happen, Pete will figure it out. Malcolm Smith certainly has no monopoly on the position yet. (And I agree that Irvin should be used as a Wide 9 for the moment, not lined up tight - several others made that point earlier in the year).

    I'm cautiously curious about what Greg Scruggs can do at DE. You never know who's going to emerge on this team.
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  • Irvin has all the physical tools to go to war just like Mathews. But I don't see any of that hunger. You gotta want that type of battle every play. Correct me if you think I am wrong, but do any of you see that hunger yet? A hint of it?
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  • KCHawkGirl wrote:Why let facts stand in the way of another chance to be a "Debbie Downer". I admit that I'm pragmatic and want results before I fully jump in but Verndog is ridiculous and does it on purpose in my opinion.


    You are going to call me ridiculous because I pointed out Irvin was on the field the entire game winning drive? Did you really see no difference in results with that drive compared to prior with Red in the game? You are right about 1 thing...yes I did it on purpose, and that is pointed out the fact we appeared my liable with Irvin then without. Get over it.
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  • Verndog wrote:
    KCHawkGirl wrote:Why let facts stand in the way of another chance to be a "Debbie Downer". I admit that I'm pragmatic and want results before I fully jump in but Verndog is ridiculous and does it on purpose in my opinion.


    You are going to call me ridiculous because I pointed out Irvin was on the field the entire game winning drive? Did you really see no difference in results with that drive compared to prior with Red in the game? You are right about 1 thing...yes I did it on purpose, and that is pointed out the fact we appeared my liable with Irvin then without. Get over it.


    Earl Thomas was on the field that whole drive as well. So were Browner and Sherman. Just sayin.
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  • Curry part II....over commits since his motor is running too fast.

    But honestly, it is way to early to say that. I hope he can get to what Pete "thinks" he can.
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  • I think Irvin needs to learn and perfect some "get-around" moves, like a spin-move, or swim-move. Bull-rushing around the outside is simply not going to cut it.

    Until he can stop getting pushed around the back side of the pocket, and can effectively get on a straight trajectory to the QB, he's simply going to be dancing with the tackle all the time.
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  • Verndog wrote:
    KCHawkGirl wrote:Why let facts stand in the way of another chance to be a "Debbie Downer". I admit that I'm pragmatic and want results before I fully jump in but Verndog is ridiculous and does it on purpose in my opinion.


    You are going to call me ridiculous because I pointed out Irvin was on the field the entire game winning drive? Did you really see no difference in results with that drive compared to prior with Red in the game? You are right about 1 thing...yes I did it on purpose, and that is pointed out the fact we appeared my liable with Irvin then without. Get over it.


    Did you even notice that the team was in soft zone coverage and Kolb was getting the ball out of there fast...? Even Skelton was doing it, That negates pass rush.
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  • If it helps leads to a Super Bowl in the next couple of years, yes.
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  • HoustonHawk82 wrote:I think Irvin needs to learn and perfect some "get-around" moves, like a spin-move, or swim-move. Bull-rushing around the outside is simply not going to cut it.

    Until he can stop getting pushed around the back side of the pocket, and can effectively get on a straight trajectory to the QB, he's simply going to be dancing with the tackle all the time.


    I saw signs of a pretty wicked looking hump move during that Oakland game. With his burst, he'll get guys selling out to beat him to the edge (because he'll eventually start toasting people around the corner). All he has to do then is plant that outside foot hard and shoot inside while shoving his man along with the inside hand. That move put Reggie White in Canton. While I don't necessarily see it getting Irvin into the HOF, it'll get him a Pro Bowl or two if he keeps developing it. Speed kils after all.

    Dude has great athleticism and a super high ceiling. All these comparisons to Aaron Curry are way too premature, we're one game in. I think right now, he's playing too reserved because he's afraid to screw up. He seems concerned with all those classic DE things like setting the edge, outside containment and all that shit, but that's not his job. He just needs to let loose and uncork it; be a QB killer. He's a ballistic missile and once he starts playing like it....... whoo doggie! It'll just happen one day, he'll have a 3 sack day and all the doubters and nervous nellies will feel really stupid for prognosticating his failure once it does.
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  • Scottemojo wrote:
    Verndog wrote:
    KCHawkGirl wrote:Why let facts stand in the way of another chance to be a "Debbie Downer". I admit that I'm pragmatic and want results before I fully jump in but Verndog is ridiculous and does it on purpose in my opinion.


    You are going to call me ridiculous because I pointed out Irvin was on the field the entire game winning drive? Did you really see no difference in results with that drive compared to prior with Red in the game? You are right about 1 thing...yes I did it on purpose, and that is pointed out the fact we appeared my liable with Irvin then without. Get over it.


    Earl Thomas was on the field that whole drive as well. So were Browner and Sherman. Just sayin.


    Rodger that. I'm just saying that the first place to look when troubleshooting a failure is what has changed from when it was working.
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  • Jason Pierre Paul only had 4.5 sacks his rookie year, and didn't record a single one until WEEK 8.

    Would you all be satisfied if it took Irvin a year to turn into a player like that? Obviously they're slightly different roles, but both were / are EXTREMELY gifted athletes who were super raw coming out of college. Give the guy some time. I agree it's been frustrating but I'm willing to bank on PC & JS knowing what the hell they are doing (on the defensive side, at least).

    And, not to be a total downer, but as clear as it seemed during the preseason that the Hawks "window" was now open, our play in week 1, and even more importantly the 49ers play tells me that we're not QUITE there yet. That's not to say I don't think we can make the playoffs and maybe make some noise, but I'm not ready to declare full on divisional dominance for the next 5-10 years, like maybe it seemed after the preseason.

    So yes, IMO, the Hawks can afford for Irvin to be a project.
    Last edited by SirTed on Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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  • Excellent points, SirTed....

    The only part I differ with you is that I just don't see us as being playoff worthy this year, based on last week's game etc...Baring some catastrophic injuries, San Fran will likely run away and hide on the rest of the division in 2012...
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  • The only thing is...isn't JPP a few years younger than Bruce? Bruce is old for a rookie. He needs to hit his prime quick to justify the investment in my opinion.
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  • Missing_Clink wrote:The only thing is...isn't JPP a few years younger than Bruce? Bruce is old for a rookie. He needs to hit his prime quick to justify the investment in my opinion.



    1 year older.
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  • Are we kinda used to Pete's projects? Carpenter, Irvin...oh and that third round pick.
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  • SirTed wrote:
    Missing_Clink wrote:The only thing is...isn't JPP a few years younger than Bruce? Bruce is old for a rookie. He needs to hit his prime quick to justify the investment in my opinion.



    1 year older.


    He's 24 only 2 years older than your average rookie assuming your 22 when you end your senior year. It's not like he played 6 years of college ball and has that kind of wear.

    It's not like he's Brandon Weeden. This kind of concern is more reserved for a guy like Brandon Browner.

    Being a situational pass rusher his Jr year, i'd like to think he has less wear on his body than you expect.
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  • I think we can afford him to be a project. It is said many places that you draft for instant production, but if a guy takes a season or two to get it and has a good long carear on your team - thats a good pick too first round or not imo.
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  • The thing that worries me, is that a bit too much of his game is dependant on speed and change of direction, and not on a proven and/or signature move to get inside. At this moment in time, Irvin has not demonstrated a move that is effective at gaining him clean separation, and headed to the quarterback in a straight line, within a high enough percentage of attempts, to indicate a sure-dominance potential.

    Sure, he's showed on a few occasions some success with a move or two that has beaten his man, but just barely, and not decisively. It's just not enough times to indicate to this onlooker that we can be that confident he will definitely get there.

    To be crystal clear here:
    I'm not saying he needs to come out and light up the field in his first outing. Nor am I saying that he can't steadily develop over the course of 6-8 games into a confident groove and make a huge difference toward the end of the season. What I'm saying, is that I would really like to see him have much more success with at least one dominant move to get inside on a high enough percentage of attempts to make me believe it WILL happen.

    But, after all, I am a Seahawks fan, and I have developed more patience than any fan of professional sport can possibly muster. Therefore, I remain cautiously optimistic.
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  • HoustonHawk82 wrote:The thing that worries me, is that a bit too much of his game is dependant on speed and change of direction, and not on a proven and/or signature move to get inside. At this moment in time, Irvin has not demonstrated a move that is effective at gaining him clean separation, and headed to the quarterback in a straight line, within a high enough percentage of attempts, to indicate a sure-dominance potential.

    Sure, he's showed on a few occasions some success with a move or two that has beaten his man, but just barely, and not decisively. It's just not enough times to indicate to this onlooker that we can be that confident he will definitely get there.

    To be crystal clear here:
    I'm not saying he needs to come out and light up the field in his first outing. Nor am I saying that he can't steadily develop over the course of 6-8 games into a confident groove and make a huge difference toward the end of the season. What I'm saying, is that I would really like to see him have much more success with at least one dominant move to get inside on a high enough percentage of attempts to make me believe it WILL happen.

    But, after all, I am a Seahawks fan, and I have developed more patience than any fan of professional sport can possibly muster. Therefore, I remain cautiously optimistic.

    Frankly, I don't see anything crystal clear in that rambling, convoluted, both, either/or mish-mash of a post.
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  • I think Bruce is 2 years older than JPP.

    Anyway...I do not understand why playing DE is apparently so tough to learn. If you are a pure pass rusher, it sounds so ridiculously simple: See QB, tackle QB. I would have thought it would be about the easiest position to learn in the NFL.
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