Rashaad Penny: 2018 Results and 2019 Projections

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  • This was a pick that seemed a glaring reach at the time. A player projected to go much later being taken in front of more heralded backs. I attribute it to a bit of Seahawk front office arrogance thinking they are smarter than everyone else. Sometimes they are but mostly they aren’t. Results for the drafted RBs was as follows:

    2018 NFL Rookie Running back results:

    1st Round
    Saquon Barkley. 261 attempts. 1307 yards
    Rashad Penny. 85 attempts. 419 yards.
    Sony Michel. 209 attempts. 931 yards

    2nd Round
    Nick Chubb. 192 attempts. 996 yards
    Ronald Jones II. 23 attempts 44 carries
    Kerryon Johnson. 118 attempts 641 yards 200+ receiving
    Derrius Guise Injured

    Round 3
    Royce Freeman. 130 attempts. 531 yards

    While there were a lot more drafted I think comparisons to the first three rounds for a first rounder is fair.

    Every healthy player but 1 had more carries and more yards than Penny.

    Our first rounder was not a position of need and earlier in the year appeared to be way over his head. Remember this was a year the Seahawks led the league in rushing. Our first rounder was our third string back behind Mike Davis.

    Mike Davis is gone but that doesn’t mean Penny is any better.

    I hope he turns the corner.
    JayhawkMike
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  • Penny can thrive on the edges if Schotty finds ways to get him the ball in space.
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:Every healthy player but 1 had more carries and more yards than Penny.


    Well, we utilized a three-headed RB in which Carson was unquestionably the main act, so it's probably not exactly fair to compare Penny's # of carries and # of yards to the other players you listed, unless every one was also the #2 or #3 RB on their respective teams.

    Don't average yards matter more? Using the attempts/yards numbers you listed for Rounds 1-3 RBs drafted, Kerryon averaged about 5.4 yards per carry. The next two players' averages are so close it's nearly a tie: Saquon at 5.00 avg yards/carry, and Penny at 4.93 avg yards/carry.

    The next best average behind Penny was Sony M. at about 4.45 yards per carry.
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  • Statistical comparison is irrelevant when you have to take the 5th leading rusher in the NFL OFF the field to use Penny. I really don't get the mental hangup on that. Not even the fact that he was a 1st round pick given Carson’s injury last year. It was an absolute priority.

    OTOH, Penny should really focus on the passing game this year. If he snatches up Davis' role amd snags 8-10 carries a game as Carson’s pitch hitter then that's great. Carson is a freak of a RB. I don't get the issue.
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  • vin.couve12 wrote:Statistical comparison is irrelevant when you have to take the 5th leading rusher in the NFL OFF the field to use Penny. I really don't get the mental hangup on that. Not even the fact that he was a 1st round pick given Carson’s injury last year. It was an absolute priority.

    OTOH, Penny should really focus on the passing game this year. If he snatches up Davis' role amd snags 8-10 carries a game as Carson’s pitch hitter then that's great. Carson is a freak of a RB. I don't get the issue.


    The issue lies between "JayhawkMike" and the Seahawks Front Office. The label ...... "arrogant front office" is a reoccurring favorite. This thread is simply the most recent iteration of that ongoing theme.
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  • The previous year, Carson got hurt and we had no one to replace him. The fans jeered. So we got someone to step in if Carson got hurt again. The fans jeered.

    At some point we have to realise the fans are idiots.
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  • Jville wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:Statistical comparison is irrelevant when you have to take the 5th leading rusher in the NFL OFF the field to use Penny. I really don't get the mental hangup on that. Not even the fact that he was a 1st round pick given Carson’s injury last year. It was an absolute priority.

    OTOH, Penny should really focus on the passing game this year. If he snatches up Davis' role amd snags 8-10 carries a game as Carson’s pitch hitter then that's great. Carson is a freak of a RB. I don't get the issue.


    The issue lies between "JayhawkMike" and the Seahawks Front Office. The label ...... "arrogant front office" is a reoccurring favorite. This thread is simply the most recent iteration of that ongoing theme.


    Not going to argue with that. They make some decisions that are questionable. I looked at a bunch of redrafts the other day and one listed Penny as the worst pick in the draft. If you draft a first rounder they should contribute immediately barring a preexisting injury. Seattle got no where close to first round value last year. Better performing backs where taken later.
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  • May be the weight gain before camp and not 'spectacular' during the first half of the season left some question marks?
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:Not going to argue with that. They make some decisions that are questionable. I looked at a bunch of redrafts the other day and one listed Penny as the worst pick in the draft. If you draft a first rounder they should contribute immediately barring a preexisting injury. Seattle got no where close to first round value last year. Better performing backs where taken later.

    What a load of bullshit.

    Teams bring in players to replace existing players without intending them to start immediately. That's how QBs used to be developed, and it was considered folly to start your 1st-round QB in his rookie year because you'd ruin him.

    With our identity as a rushing football team, there is a requirement to have a top-flight running back, and also to have someone who can replace that running back if he gets injured, and hopefully someone to challenge the existing back for the starting role. You don't get that at Mr. Irrelevant.

    However, if you do draft your guy early and he's beaten by your existing back, then you use your existing back because for competition to be real you have to ignore the source or contract of the players and go with the one who has the performance.

    We didn't draft Penny to play one year. We drafted him to develop him and to step in should Carson get hurt, or to eventually beat our Carson for the #1 job. However, if Carson continues to win then Carson is going to continue to be The Guy because he's earned it, and - and this is the important bit - that doesn't in any way lessen Penny as a draft pick. We still need the guy to back up Carson, and we still want a guy who can push for that starting spot.

    That doesn't show up on a stat sheet. Penny didn't not get yards because he sucked. He didn't get yards because Carson was healthily rampaging through the league, which is the whole point - to have a strong running game, regardless of who carries.
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:
    Jville wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:Statistical comparison is irrelevant when you have to take the 5th leading rusher in the NFL OFF the field to use Penny. I really don't get the mental hangup on that. Not even the fact that he was a 1st round pick given Carson’s injury last year. It was an absolute priority.

    OTOH, Penny should really focus on the passing game this year. If he snatches up Davis' role amd snags 8-10 carries a game as Carson’s pitch hitter then that's great. Carson is a freak of a RB. I don't get the issue.


    The issue lies between "JayhawkMike" and the Seahawks Front Office. The label ...... "arrogant front office" is a reoccurring favorite. This thread is simply the most recent iteration of that ongoing theme.


    Not going to argue with that. They make some decisions that are questionable. I looked at a bunch of redrafts the other day and one listed Penny as the worst pick in the draft. If you draft a first rounder they should contribute immediately barring a preexisting injury. Seattle got no where close to first round value last year. Better performing backs where taken later.


    I don't think Pete & John place as much value on first round picks as everybody else. They always seem to figure out who they want and snatch them whenever they think the time is right.

    You can disagree with me here, but I loved the Penny pick, would I have preferred him to be taken in the 2nd round? Sure, but they didn't have a 2nd round pick last year. I saw Penny as a jack-of-all-trades RB. We all knew Carson was the guy, as long as he stayed healthy, he was RB1, Penny wasn't going to displace him. I was hoping though, that they would use Penny on kick returns, and as a pass-catching RB, I was disappointed that they didn't do that last season, I thought he could be a natural pass-catcher even though he didn't do much of it in college, he just seemed to have good hands. I'm still holding out hope that they can utilize him in those plays. Hopefully by now, Penny is in better shape, knows the playbook more, and is itching for his opportunity to be RB2.
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  • 12AngryHawks wrote:I don't think Pete & John place as much value on first round picks as everybody else. They always seem to figure out who they want and snatch them whenever they think the time is right.

    You can disagree with me here, but I loved the Penny pick, would I have preferred him to be taken in the 2nd round? Sure, but they didn't have a 2nd round pick last year. I saw Penny as a jack-of-all-trades RB. We all knew Carson was the guy, as long as he stayed healthy, he was RB1, Penny wasn't going to displace him. I was hoping though, that they would use Penny on kick returns, and as a pass-catching RB, I was disappointed that they didn't do that last season, I thought he could be a natural pass-catcher even though he didn't do much of it in college, he just seemed to have good hands. I'm still holding out hope that they can utilize him in those plays. Hopefully by now, Penny is in better shape, knows the playbook more, and is itching for his opportunity to be RB2.

    Pete and John see the draft for what it is: a means of acquiring players. If they want X player they have to determine if he will be there when they make their 2nd pick. If he's not likely to be, then they need to take him with their first pick or not get him. Fortunately, they are not concerned with how the talking heads rank the players; they have their own people and their own ranking board, and they trust their people.

    If they wanted Penny and he wasn't likely to be there for our next pick, then first-round it is.

    But acquiring players and starting players are two different things. You acquire players by any means necessary including but not limited to drafts, free agent contracts, and trades. Once you have a player, how he performs on the field with the team determines whether or not he starts. It's not handed to someone because they were drafted.
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  • You also have to remember we traded our 18th pick for Rashaad Penny & Rashard Green. Not much impact last year but i got feeling these two will play great, worth the value of 18th pick.
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  • KiwiHawk wrote:
    12AngryHawks wrote:I don't think Pete & John place as much value on first round picks as everybody else. They always seem to figure out who they want and snatch them whenever they think the time is right.

    You can disagree with me here, but I loved the Penny pick, would I have preferred him to be taken in the 2nd round? Sure, but they didn't have a 2nd round pick last year. I saw Penny as a jack-of-all-trades RB. We all knew Carson was the guy, as long as he stayed healthy, he was RB1, Penny wasn't going to displace him. I was hoping though, that they would use Penny on kick returns, and as a pass-catching RB, I was disappointed that they didn't do that last season, I thought he could be a natural pass-catcher even though he didn't do much of it in college, he just seemed to have good hands. I'm still holding out hope that they can utilize him in those plays. Hopefully by now, Penny is in better shape, knows the playbook more, and is itching for his opportunity to be RB2.

    Pete and John see the draft for what it is: a means of acquiring players. If they want X player they have to determine if he will be there when they make their 2nd pick. If he's not likely to be, then they need to take him with their first pick or not get him. Fortunately, they are not concerned with how the talking heads rank the players; they have their own people and their own ranking board, and they trust their people.

    If they wanted Penny and he wasn't likely to be there for our next pick, then first-round it is.

    But acquiring players and starting players are two different things. You acquire players by any means necessary including but not limited to drafts, free agent contracts, and trades. Once you have a player, how he performs on the field with the team determines whether or not he starts. It's not handed to someone because they were drafted.


    That's what I'm saying, Penny was the guy they wanted, and I'm not butthurt at all that they took him at 27. If I were a GM, I'd do things the way Pete & John do, figure out beforehand who you want, and not just take players based on what the mediots think their so-called potential is. So many first-rounders end up becoming busts, the draft is a total crapshoot, that's why everyone shouldn't put so much value on 1st round players, nothing is guaranteed. Luckily, Pete & John are a couple of the best talent evaluators out there, it doesn't matter when they take a player, any one of them could turn out to have real talent. What really matters is development, a 7th rounder could play like a 1st rounder & vice versa, if your teams coaching staff can't develop players, it won't matter who you take or where you take them, they won't succeed. You put crap in, you get crap out.
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  • KiwiHawk wrote:At some point we have to realise the fans are idiots.


    I knew that as fact the second I became one. :P
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  • Aros wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:At some point we have to realise the fans are idiots.


    I knew that as fact the second I became one. :P


    I don't know about you, but I was an idiot long before I became one. :lol:
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  • Many drafts, teams don't have as many as 32 players ranked as 1st Round players. Mel Kiper does, because he has to justify a mock draft. That makes him money, but has nothing to do with reality.
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:
    Jville wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:Statistical comparison is irrelevant when you have to take the 5th leading rusher in the NFL OFF the field to use Penny. I really don't get the mental hangup on that. Not even the fact that he was a 1st round pick given Carson’s injury last year. It was an absolute priority.

    OTOH, Penny should really focus on the passing game this year. If he snatches up Davis' role amd snags 8-10 carries a game as Carson’s pitch hitter then that's great. Carson is a freak of a RB. I don't get the issue.


    The issue lies between "JayhawkMike" and the Seahawks Front Office. The label ...... "arrogant front office" is a reoccurring favorite. This thread is simply the most recent iteration of that ongoing theme.


    Not going to argue with that. They make some decisions that are questionable. I looked at a bunch of redrafts the other day and one listed Penny as the worst pick in the draft. If you draft a first rounder they should contribute immediately barring a preexisting injury. Seattle got no where close to first round value last year. Better performing backs where taken later.


    By that logic, I can think of about a half dozen Hall of Fame players off the top of my head who were wasted draft picks. Troy Aikman, Drew Brees, Chris Carter, Steve Young, Michael Strahan, Peyton Manning, Jerry Rice.. man that's just what popped up as I was reading this.

    When it comes to modern running backs, Melvin Gordon comes to mind. His rookie season was worse than Penny's.

    If you think a rookie RB in a system with 3 starters and a first-year OC has to put up 1000 yards and a pro bowl appearance or they're a wasted pick, well... I'd just encourage you to kick back and be patient. You can't judge him yet.

    And frankly, he looked pretty good by the end of the season. I'm actually excited to see how he does this season.
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:Seattle got no where close to first round value last year.


    A first-round pick is a means to an end, not an end unto itself. A different first-rounder wouldn't necessarily have elevated the Seahawks any further than they went.
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  • Ask yourself this: would you have been happier with Penny selection right now if Chris Carson had gotten hurt again last year and Penny had rushed for 250/1225 yards?

    I'm sure I don't need to remind you that Marshawn only started six games in 2015, Rawls only started seven games in 2016, and Carson got hurt in week 4 in 2017. Our RBs just could not stay healthy over many seasons and that was a huge blow to our offensive production. Having Carson start 15 out of 17 games for us last season was a fantastic improvement in our luck, and as a Seahawks fan you should only feel happy about that.
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  • Penny was such a bad pick that as soon as the Seahawks picked him a the Lions were on the phone trying to trade for him.
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  • How many yards did Shaun Alexander rush for in his first year? I am too lazy to look it up.
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  • I looked it up. 64 attempts and 313 yards. Would anyone consider him a wasted first round pick? Guess I am not as lazy as I thought.
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  • Rashaad Penny is the least of our worrie I perfectly understand why they picked him up! Some of his runs were great last year Rasaad will be ok. As stated above our injury history over the year justified the pick. There are more busts that come out of the fist round than there are all pro's! Relax Bro Penny is going to have his time to shine!
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  • Comparing the time to develop of a running back to quarterbacks is simply a false argument. Comparing Penny to running backs that he was drafted in front of shows him as having a mediocre to poor draft choice so far. Not a bust yet but certainly a poor choice. If he would have performed more like a Chubb or Michel he probably would have had more chance to run and then more yards.

    Also, pulling out some stats from some hall of fame and saying “see, this guy had a poor rookie year and went on to success” completely ignores the vast majority of players who had a poor rookie year and got cut. Exceptions happen but as a rule poor play results in unemployment. But of course this is part of the Seahawks front offic problems. They play the longer shots on their picks and point to the couple that payoff and ignore the majority that don’t.

    Rookie first rounder should contribute their rookie years far more than Penny did (unless some qbs in waiting) I hope he proves me wrong but when he was picked I though it was one of the stupider picks the Seahawks made. Nothing has changed my mind yet.

    Oh, and the Trust in JS and PC went out the window a few years back. If you trust in them then why be on a discussion board? If every time someone wants to point out the flaws they get shut down then what is there to discuss? The only team that can legitimately use that argument is the Patriots.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    JayhawkMike wrote:Seattle got no where close to first round value last year.


    A first-round pick is a means to an end, not an end unto itself. A different first-rounder wouldn't necessarily have elevated the Seahawks any further than they went.


    I think many people thought they would pick Harold Landry, he didn't have an immediate impact either, 4.5 sacks, 24 tackles, and 1 FF. Neither him or Penny had a bad first year, IMO. Fans just need to be patient, once he get acclimated, he can carve out a role for himself.

    Fans can't label Penny a bust because of his stats after his first season, Penny didn't get a lot of carries, Pete Carroll probably kept it that way because he was the rookie, and they had a healthy Carson and Davis, so of course his stats won't look great. As I said before, Pete doesn't place as much value on first rounders as everyone else, that's why he was content with not putting pressure on himself to give Penny more carries. Think about it this way, Prosise was a healthy scratch all season and McKissic rarely showed up on offense, if Penny was so bad like many fans think, then Prosise & McKissic would be taking more of his snaps.

    So right now, I think Penny is doing just fine, maybe we should give it a year or two before we label him a bust.
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:2018 NFL Rookie Running back results:

    1st Round
    Saquon Barkley. 5.01 yards per carry
    Rashad Penny. 4.93 yards per carry
    Sony Michel. 4.45 yards per carry

    2nd Round
    Nick Chubb. 5.19 yards per carry
    Ronald Jones II. 1.91 yards per carry
    Kerryon Johnson. 5.43 yards per carry
    Derrius Guise Injured

    Round 3
    Royce Freeman. 4.08 yards per carry


    I went ahead and did the math for you. Apparently every team's FO that didn't make Kerryon Johnson the first RB picked in the first round are a bunch of arrogant idiots.

    :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:completely ignores the vast majority of players who had a poor rookie year and got cut. Exceptions happen but as a rule poor play results in unemployment.

    You continue to ignore the main point which is that playing behind a great RB who stayed healthy doesn't mean Penny had a poor rookie year. Barkley is the only RB on your list that would have started over Chris Carson last season. You can gripe about Chris Carson staying healthy now all you want but that's 100% hindsight driven opinion.

    What matters more for evaluating the pick is how Penny looked in the snaps that he got, and that IMO is still too early to tell. 4.9 YPC is pretty good but a lot of that came in chunk plays and I didn't like him showing up out of shape either. This next year will tell us a lot more.[/quote]

    JayhawkMike wrote:They play the longer shots on their picks and point to the couple that payoff and ignore the majority that don’t.

    Every FO has tons of picks that don't work, Patriots included. The Patriots have gotten a total of just 18 career approximate value out of their 2017 and 2018 draft classes so far compared to 67 from the Seahawks (Carson alone has 12). In fact, the Patriots have gotten very little from their first three selections of '16, '17 and '18 yet (Cyrus Jones, Derek Rivers, Isaiah Wynn).

    JayhawkMike wrote:When he was picked I though it was one of the stupider picks the Seahawks made. Nothing has changed my mind yet.

    That's exactly how it works when you form a strong opinion too early and then spend your time defending it.
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:Comparing the time to develop of a running back to quarterbacks is simply a false argument. Comparing Penny to running backs that he was drafted in front of shows him as having a mediocre to poor draft choice so far. Not a bust yet but certainly a poor choice. If he would have performed more like a Chubb or Michel he probably would have had more chance to run and then more yards.

    Also, pulling out some stats from some hall of fame and saying “see, this guy had a poor rookie year and went on to success” completely ignores the vast majority of players who had a poor rookie year and got cut. Exceptions happen but as a rule poor play results in unemployment. But of course this is part of the Seahawks front offic problems. They play the longer shots on their picks and point to the couple that payoff and ignore the majority that don’t.

    Rookie first rounder should contribute their rookie years far more than Penny did (unless some qbs in waiting) I hope he proves me wrong but when he was picked I though it was one of the stupider picks the Seahawks made. Nothing has changed my mind yet.

    Oh, and the Trust in JS and PC went out the window a few years back. If you trust in them then why be on a discussion board? If every time someone wants to point out the flaws they get shut down then what is there to discuss? The only team that can legitimately use that argument is the Patriots.

    There is no way around it, this is goofy logic by any measure or metrics....Did you actually expect the Seahawks to bench Carson in favor of playing Penny? :roll:
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  • Fans can be so impatient sometimes; just this whole entitlement era that we’re living in right now I guess.

    Leaving out yards per carry seemed like a purposeful omission in order to strengthen whatever point they were trying to make. Which for Penny was 4.9, less than Chubb and Johnson, but more than Carson, Elliott, Kamara, Hunt, Michel, and the same as Gurley.
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  • Well, at least we didn't take Ronald Jones, 44 yds on 23 carries? That's less than two yds per carry. Many on the board wanted him bad, I did not. So yes, I can be right once in a while too, lol.
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:Oh, and the Trust in JS and PC went out the window a few years back. If you trust in them then why be on a discussion board? If every time someone wants to point out the flaws they get shut down then what is there to discuss? The only team that can legitimately use that argument is the Patriots.


    Oh, drop the martyr complex. There's plenty of people here who have criticized the front office over the last few years. The only difference is whether they provide a mature-sounding, data-driven opinion, or whether they just spout absolutes and ingratitude.
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  • rcaido wrote:You also have to remember we traded our 18th pick for Rashaad Penny & Rashard Green. Not much impact last year but i got feeling these two will play great, worth the value of 18th pick.

    Indeed. Penny just turned 23 a couple months ago and Green turned 22 a couple days ago. They have quite a bit of time. Green was technically 20 years old when he was drafted and Penny had just turned 22. Green is green. Penny got on the field while playing behind one of the best RBs in football.

    This conversation is beyond stupid. The funny thing is, it's largely based off of a draft pundit business model. The OP is reading that last statement as of that's not a problem, but the draft in and of itself has gone from what used to be about aquiring players that you want based on fit and use case to a media based circus that is more intent on making the NFL more money by drumming up more "pundit" talk, sites, advertising, licensing, etc. That's fine and all, but still meaningless.

    "No...NO! IT'S 7 MINITE ABS!"
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:Comparing the time to develop of a running back to quarterbacks is simply a false argument. Comparing Penny to running backs that he was drafted in front of shows him as having a mediocre to poor draft choice so far. Not a bust yet but certainly a poor choice. If he would have performed more like a Chubb or Michel he probably would have had more chance to run and then more yards.

    Also, pulling out some stats from some hall of fame and saying “see, this guy had a poor rookie year and went on to success” completely ignores the vast majority of players who had a poor rookie year and got cut. Exceptions happen but as a rule poor play results in unemployment. But of course this is part of the Seahawks front offic problems. They play the longer shots on their picks and point to the couple that payoff and ignore the majority that don’t.

    Rookie first rounder should contribute their rookie years far more than Penny did (unless some qbs in waiting) I hope he proves me wrong but when he was picked I though it was one of the stupider picks the Seahawks made. Nothing has changed my mind yet.

    Oh, and the Trust in JS and PC went out the window a few years back. If you trust in them then why be on a discussion board? If every time someone wants to point out the flaws they get shut down then what is there to discuss? The only team that can legitimately use that argument is the Patriots.




    He did perform like Chubb and Michel.

    Since he didnt have the same opportunities as many of the other backs, its only fair to look at ypc, which put him right near the top of the heap.

    It seems as if your confirmation bias is at play here. Since you hated the pick and grumble about the front office, you will continue to look for stats/etc that confirm your belief to be true. We all do it at times, and that appears to be what is at play here.

    Penny is fine. Glad we have him on the roster.
    Hawkpower
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  • So, it was a poor choice not only because he underperformed but because it wasn’t a position we needed when we had other glaring holes, A healthy Carson and Davis were not going to be sat for Penny.

    Agreed.
    JayhawkMike
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  • AgentDib wrote:
    JayhawkMike wrote:completely ignores the vast majority of players who had a poor rookie year and got cut. Exceptions happen but as a rule poor play results in unemployment.

    You continue to ignore the main point which is that playing behind a great RB who stayed healthy doesn't mean Penny had a poor rookie year. Barkley is the only RB on your list that would have started over Chris Carson last season. You can gripe about Chris Carson staying healthy now all you want but that's 100% hindsight driven opinion.

    What matters more for evaluating the pick is how Penny looked in the snaps that he got, and that IMO is still too early to tell. 4.9 YPC is pretty good but a lot of that came in chunk plays and I didn't like him showing up out of shape either. This next year will tell us a lot more.


    JayhawkMike wrote:They play the longer shots on their picks and point to the couple that payoff and ignore the majority that don’t.

    Every FO has tons of picks that don't work, Patriots included. The Patriots have gotten a total of just 18 career approximate value out of their 2017 and 2018 draft classes so far compared to 67 from the Seahawks (Carson alone has 12). In fact, the Patriots have gotten very little from their first three selections of '16, '17 and '18 yet (Cyrus Jones, Derek Rivers, Isaiah Wynn).

    JayhawkMike wrote:When he was picked I though it was one of the stupider picks the Seahawks made. Nothing has changed my mind yet.

    That's exactly how it works when you form a strong opinion too early and then spend your time defending it.[/quote]
    I'm in the love Penny camp so far..Good post AD.. :2thumbs:
    IndyHawk
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  • The OP clearly has a burr under his saddle towards the FO, and until they can all be replaced with people of the OP's choosing, no one and nobody is ever going to change his mind. He is wasting his talent in his chosen profession when there are so many teams that need competent coaches and GM's...
    There is no reason we can't select all pros with ever selection and never lose another game.
    Donn2390
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:So, it was a poor choice not only because he underperformed but because it wasn’t a position we needed when we had other glaring holes, A healthy Carson and Davis were not going to be sat for Penny.

    Agreed.




    He didnt underperform.

    His ypc bears that out.

    And nobody knew what to expect with Carson. Durability may still be a question mark moving forward. Nothing at all wrong with adding talent to a position where you have an incumbent starter, especially at a position where injuries can be prevalent, the starter is coming off a big injury, and you are a team that loves to pound the rock.

    This is a non issue. Go Penny. Go Hawks.
    Hawkpower
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  • Hawkpower wrote:
    JayhawkMike wrote:So, it was a poor choice not only because he underperformed but because it wasn’t a position we needed when we had other glaring holes, A healthy Carson and Davis were not going to be sat for Penny.

    Agreed.




    He didnt underperform.

    His ypc bears that out.

    And nobody knew what to expect with Carson. Durability may still be a question mark moving forward. Nothing at all wrong with adding talent to a position where you have an incumbent starter, especially at a position where injuries can be prevalent, the starter is coming off a big injury, and you are a team that loves to pound the rock.

    This is a non issue. Go Penny. Go Hawks.


    Carroll wants to run the ball aggressively, wouldn't it make sense to have more than 1 RB capable of having 20 carries a game? The pick was smarter than some realize. Especially since Davis only lasted one more season.
    12AngryHawks
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:So, it was a poor choice not only because he underperformed but because it wasn’t a position we needed when we had other glaring holes, A healthy Carson and Davis were not going to be sat for Penny.

    Agreed.


    The bolded is an opinion not a fact. His stats are factual and state otherwise. He performed adequately in my opinion.
    hawkfan68
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:So, it was a poor choice not only because he underperformed but because it wasn’t a position we needed when we had other glaring holes, A healthy Carson and Davis were not going to be sat for Penny.

    Agreed.

    In the previous season our QB led the team in rushing. Chris Carson was the only proper running back to get over 4 YPC (ignoring McKissic and Prosise because they were not every-down backs). Not a position we needed?

    We needed a running back to back up Carson, and Penny didn't under-perform. Your narrative fails on both counts.

    It's probably also worth noting that using the first round pick for an athlete who would benefit from some development is a good thing because of the 5th year option, which is something you don't get in the 2nd round on.

    It's not like we're picking top-10. From a top-10 pick I expect immediate impact and if not a QB, game 1 starter. From late 1st round I expect some rough edges because if he had none he would have been taken in the top 10.
    KiwiHawk
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  • Fatty
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:So, it was a poor choice not only because he underperformed but because it wasn’t a position we needed when we had other glaring holes, A healthy Carson and Davis were not going to be sat for Penny.

    Penny took snaps from Davis. Did you actually predict Carson's full season of health on here last year or is that a "I just knew it in my head, trust me" sort of thing?
    AgentDib
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  • 4.93 YPC is very good , I guess you could make the argument that Penny was more of a feast or famine type back but having a guy who can break off a run for 30 plus yards at any time has value. He was hurt to start the year and he simply didn't play much so Penny's value ability and ceiling are far from settled.
    Northwest Seahawk
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  • Important to remember that Shaun Alexander didn't start his rookie year either. Looking at his rookie year stat line, he surely would have looked like a bust too.

    Now, I say that, but I'm also not convinced spending a first round pick on a RB is a good idea. You can get comparable talent later on at that position. But what's done is done and now the team is a solid two deep at a position that it doesn't to be two deep at.
    HawkGA
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  • Well using his logic we didn't need Russell Wilson either since we had just acquired Flynn and had Tjack and Wilson started out third on the depth Chart.
    chris98251
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  • The guy didn't even get a full training camp OR any preseason game work with his injury and surgery.

    As a rookie that's pretty big, yet he could obviously be seen gaining confidence.

    This guy is going to make the O.P. a laugher.
    Largent80
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  • Largent80 wrote:The guy didn't even get a full training camp OR any preseason game work with his injury and surgery.

    As a rookie that's pretty big, yet he could obviously be seen gaining confidence.

    This guy is going to make the O.P. a laugher.

    Go Penny! :2thumbs:
    IndyHawk
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:So, it was a poor choice not only because he underperformed but because it wasn’t a position we needed when we had other glaring holes, A healthy Carson and Davis were not going to be sat for Penny.

    Agreed.


    I’m not sure you were actually paying attention during the 2017 season and the team needs heading into last years draft. 2017 was Carsons rookie year. He was a 7th round draft pick. He flashed some talent but was injured in the 4th game of the year. His injury status and his limited games played put a huge question mark on his ability to not only be a starter but even a contributor for 2018 and beyond. Davis was a guy who had bounced around the league along with McKissic, who btw had the only rushing TD by a RB in2017. Procise? Whatever.

    With Pete’s desire to create and sustain a dominant running attack for his offense, having a RB who could handle the load, meant that they needed to acquire another back ASAP. Penny had the pedigree from his college play. RB was the most needed position going into the 2018 draft. Every single back on the roster going into that draft was a question mark. Penny was the most prudent pick they could have made based on the number of question marks facing the RB position.

    Pete and John identified a weakness (perceived or real) and did what they needed to correct it. The fact that Carson came back from injury and dominated the way he did is only icing on the cake. Please stop with the rhetoric that it was a position that we didn’t need to strengthen. That logic is far from sound.
    oldhawkfan
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:Comparing the time to develop of a running back to quarterbacks is simply a false argument. Comparing Penny to running backs that he was drafted in front of shows him as having a mediocre to poor draft choice so far. Not a bust yet but certainly a poor choice. If he would have performed more like a Chubb or Michel he probably would have had more chance to run and then more yards.

    Also, pulling out some stats from some hall of fame and saying “see, this guy had a poor rookie year and went on to success” completely ignores the vast majority of players who had a poor rookie year and got cut. Exceptions happen but as a rule poor play results in unemployment. But of course this is part of the Seahawks front offic problems. They play the longer shots on their picks and point to the couple that payoff and ignore the majority that don’t.

    Rookie first rounder should contribute their rookie years far more than Penny did (unless some qbs in waiting) I hope he proves me wrong but when he was picked I though it was one of the stupider picks the Seahawks made. Nothing has changed my mind yet.

    Oh, and the Trust in JS and PC went out the window a few years back. If you trust in them then why be on a discussion board? If every time someone wants to point out the flaws they get shut down then what is there to discuss? The only team that can legitimately use that argument is the Patriots.


    But Penny didn’t play for those other teams and those other RBs didn’t play for Seattle. It’s still not an apples-to-apples comparison situationally.
    sc85sis
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:So, it was a poor choice not only because he underperformed but because it wasn’t a position we needed when we had other glaring holes


    Wasn't a position we needed? Carson's injury history goes all the way back to high school. It was a big part of why he was available in the 7th round and I don't disagree that further picks were needed.

    Whether that needed to be a first-rounder is debatable, but remember, this is a front office that values the RB position higher than most of the league.
    MontanaHawk05
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