Our cost of letting Richard go

chris98251

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I will start by saying he was too soft as a DC, too much Bradley in him. But what he brought was the ability to teach technique and not just to our CB's but Safety positions as well, when he was able to focus on the Secondary we were like developing juggernaut for secondary positions in the league, Maybe they can bring in Manual who was fired who was here at the same time and got his job in Jacksonville largely due to his work here.


I see two CB's that can play but are missing some ingredients that under Richard would have been there, all our CB's and Safeties were ball hawkers when Richard was here, it was because they were taught to read a Receiver and QB and play great position on them.


We need that ability coached into this new group, it is across the board, we had a large number of take away's this year but fewer interceptions then I remember and QB's didn't fear challenging our secondary, where we stepped it up was the LB'S that was Norton's influence.


Anyway thoughts......
 

WestcoastSteve

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chris98251":388h9eq7 said:
I will start by saying he was too soft as a DC, too much Bradley in him. But what he brought was the ability to teach technique and not just to our CB's but Safety positions as well, when he was able to focus on the Secondary we were like developing juggernaut for secondary positions in the league, Maybe they can bring in Manual who was fired who was here at the same time and got his job in Jacksonville largely due to his work here.


I see two CB's that can play but are missing some ingredients that under Richard would have been there, all our CB's and Safeties were ball hawkers when Richard was here, it was because they were taught to read a Receiver and QB and play great position on them.


We need that ability coached into this new group, it is across the board, we had a large number of take away's this year but fewer interceptions then I remember and QB's didn't fear challenging our secondary, where we stepped it up was the LB'S that was Norton's influence.


Anyway thoughts......

Great post, someone posted last night Richard shut down our run game which I laughed at because he is their passing game coordinator and secondary coach.

But you're right our DB's have always played well under him, I can't help but wonder if his departure has anything to do with Shaq taking a step back.
 

Sports Hernia

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I think Richard is nothing special, just your average at best coach which are a dime a dozen.
Seattle didn’t lose the game yesterday because anything that he or *allas did, they lost the game because the offensive coaching staff decided to neuter the offense for 3.5 quarters.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Truth. Conservative stubborn play calling ruined this playoff run, period. You can't play scared in the playoffs, and they just kept running it up the gut, and REFUSED to adjust.
 

Tusc2000

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Kris Richard is a good coach, and may very well get a shot at a HC gig one day. That said, I think we needed to make coordinator changes after last year, if for no other reason than to have a fresh start. I certainly agree our secondary has room for improvement.
 

TheLegendOfBoom

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SoulfishHawk":2lnd7i6g said:
Truth. Conservative stubborn play calling ruined this playoff run, period. You can't play scared in the playoffs, and they just kept running it up the gut, and REFUSED to adjust.
Agreed.

What sucks is, Pete Carroll, will not change.

His run run run formula is all he knows.

Except when he's on the one yard line at the Super Bowl with the game on the line, but that's a different story...

But I digress....
 

TwistedHusky

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This is funny.

Letting go of Kris was idiotic.

Kris was dealing with a number of players that were playing hurt or at diminished capacity.

He had no Kam, which our defense relied on.

No Avril or Bennett, and Reed had not stepped up as a pass rusher at all. I suppose you can attribute the rise and growth of both Reed and Clark to Norton if you wish but Norton hasn't been great this year at all. Not only that, but losing Kris can be attributed to the sudden change from the Dallas D being a weakpoint to a sudden strength.

And the inexplicable drop in the effectiveness of our own secondary (though a LOT of that was losing ET).

Firing Kris was stupid, if not outright idiotic. Bringing in a guy as the DC from a struggling defense and then asking him to somehow make it work here? Sort of worked but the numbers were masked a bit by the way we played the game.

It was a middle of the pack defense that was masked by an offensive strategy that ground the clock down and limited possessions. But on a per-possession basis? Other than 3rd down conversion %, it was pretty average. And that 3rd down conversion % might be so great because they were giving up something like 6 yards per play - so the opposing offense probably saw 3rd down less (it would be interesting to see the avg 3rd down to go #s for opposing offenses).

In any event, the cost of letting Kris go was making another team better in an area that was a terrible weakness for them. That move resulted in us being out in the first game of the playoffs. I would say that is a significant cost.

I would bet that this defense under Kris would have been better. He did a pretty good job after losing some key players last year so having more guys healthy would have likely resulted in a better D. You have to remember he had to work the D for 3 qtrs last year when our offense was setting historical records for being worthless - but he was still keeping us in games. Imagine him with a good offense?
 

Sgt. Largent

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TwistedHusky":3u3621hm said:
This is funny.

Letting go of Kris was idiotic.

We are not privy to the post season meetings between Pete and his coaches and coordinators, so it's very possible that Richard didn't want to be here if Pete was going to clean house and re-build the defense over again.

Richard was very good friends with the LOB and the other vets on that defense. He coached them as their DB coach from day one.

Maybe it was all Pete, and he just wanted to clean house, but maybe Richard wanted to leave if he didn't have his players.
 

flmmkrz

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Were the cbs and safeties really taught to be ball hawks by Richard or was he gifted generational talents. Earl has other worldly skills, Sherm was so heady and had receiver instincts, Kam was just a beast and had a knack for creating turnovers... and whomever they sprinkled in just benefited from playing with those guys....the more that got asked of that 4th and beyond guy(s) or as they parlayed their success into paychecks away from these other 3 the more they got exposed.
 

Sgt. Largent

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flmmkrz":20wt8byc said:
Were the cbs and safeties really taught to be ball hawks by Richard or was he gifted generational talents. Earl has other worldly skills, Sherm was so heady and had receiver instincts, Kam was just a beast and had a knack for creating turnovers... and whomever they sprinkled in just benefited from playing with those guys....the more that got asked of that 4th and beyond guy(s) or as they parlayed their success into paychecks away from these other 3 the more they got exposed.

No Richard was taught to teach DB's to ball hawk and play his style of defensive back at USC by Pete.

People forget that Pete is one of the greatest DB coaches in the history of football, and defense in general.

Yeah Griffin has an absolute HORRENDOUS game against the Cowboys, but if anyone doubts Pete's skill at assembling another great defense after what we saw him do with this defense made up of new players and band aids this year, hasn't been paying attention.

Resign Sweezy and Fluker, give Russ a new contract then focus all the cap and draft picks on the defensive side of the ball, and we'll be back in the playoffs. Guaranteed.
 

NOLAHawk

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I would bet that this defense under Kris would have been better.

What if we only had Carey on both sides?

Which game was lost by the defense other than maybe the Rams. We had a shot against every team. Special teams coaching to be crucified, but defense no. Our o-line gave them 25 yards alone in a potentially winning try.

This game is a loss because Darryl Beville and the 3andOuts made a encore performance, playing their greatest hit compilation or Run Run Pass Punt, or that holiday classic Throw for 40 when you only need 3 momma. And my favorite anthem 1 and 20. Our offense needs a few more pieces to make a consistent + 5 yard pass as viable as a 3 yard run, short QB or not.


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Sgt. Largent

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NOLAHawk":3tdiz0es said:
I would bet that this defense under Kris would have been better.

What if we only had Carey on both sides?

Which game was lost by the defense other than maybe the Rams. We had a shot against every team. Special teams coaching to be crucified, but defense no. Our o-line gave them 25 yards alone in a potentially winning try.

This game is a loss because Darryl Beville and the 3andOuts made a encore performance, playing their greatest hit compilation or Run Run Pass Punt, or that holiday classic Throw for 40 when you only need 3 momma. And my favorite anthem 1 and 20. Our offense needs a few more pieces to make a consistent + 5 yard pass as viable as a 3 yard run, short QB or not.


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This defense overachieved this year, so to say Richard could have done better is pure unadulterated speculation.

Richard is a good coach, but so are Pete and Norton. They squeezed every bit of effort and talent out of our young rebuild in progress defense.........and I have all the faith that they'll continue to build another great defense, it's just not this year.
 

TwistedHusky

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Largent,

The defense this year was OK but it wasn't great.

You just think it was because it had so few possessions to defend because our offense limited opposing offense possessions.

Our defense literally gave up 6 yds per play to the opposing team.

We were middle of the pack in punts per play and punts per score.

We were not exceptional in forcing TOs.

Middle of the pack in pretty much everything but 3rd down conversion % which makes sense when you consider we were giving up 6 yds per play that many opposing 1st down conversions did not need a 3rd down.

Norton did an OK job. But a lot of that was the result of an offense that kept his opponents from possessing the ball in the first place. It was a middle of the pack defense with a slightly above average in scores per play #s and scores per drive. Good, but nothing you pin your playoff hopes on.
 

Sgt. Largent

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TwistedHusky":r9n8zd5u said:
Largent,

We were not exceptional in forcing TOs.


We were not only exceptional, we were #1 in TO ratio, + 15.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/givetake

Again, over achieved..............so give credit to Pete and Norton. Not sure what you guys expected out of a defense in the middle of a rebuild with holes and depth issues all over the place.

Richard and Norton both have been with Pete forever, so to think Richard would have done any better is a head scratcher. It would have looked identical, because in the end this is Pete's defense, Richard and Norton coach up and scheme the D how Pete wants it coached and schemed.
 

flmmkrz

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Sgt. Largent":22lg23za said:
flmmkrz":22lg23za said:
Were the cbs and safeties really taught to be ball hawks by Richard or was he gifted generational talents. Earl has other worldly skills, Sherm was so heady and had receiver instincts, Kam was just a beast and had a knack for creating turnovers... and whomever they sprinkled in just benefited from playing with those guys....the more that got asked of that 4th and beyond guy(s) or as they parlayed their success into paychecks away from these other 3 the more they got exposed.

No Richard was taught to teach DB's to ball hawk and play his style of defensive back at USC by Pete.

People forget that Pete is one of the greatest DB coaches in the history of football, and defense in general.

Yeah Griffin has an absolute HORRENDOUS game against the Cowboys, but if anyone doubts Pete's skill at assembling another great defense after what we saw him do with this defense made up of new players and band aids this year, hasn't been paying attention.

Resign Sweezy and Fluker, give Russ a new contract then focus all the cap and draft picks on the defensive side of the ball, and we'll be back in the playoffs. Guaranteed.

I haven't forgotten any of that but what I'm saying is this defense was still generating turnovers this year so to say Richard would've had some dramatic difference this year is overstating it. Any secondary coach brought on is going to be teaching what Pete wants them to know so this isn't something unique that Richard brought to the table. I have 0 doubts as to Petes ability to put out great defenses but I argue the premise of this thread that Richards moving on held this defense back in some way
 

tmobilchawker79

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Richard is likely a head coach next year. Coordinators come and go. It's on Pete to find the next coordinator. In other news, Clint Hurt was a great coordinator that was developed/found/hired.
 

Spin Doctor

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Kris was let go because of the locker room situation. He didn't have much control over his players, some of them outright refusing to play the scheme. A good example of this is Richardson, he just did whatever. Richard was not able to reign his own players in. Pete responded by bringing in the hard nosed Ken Norton, a man respected by players, and a man who demands respect. Norton was brought in to be a drill sergeant.
 

Hawkpower

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TwistedHusky":2j1digz6 said:
Largent,

The defense this year was OK but it wasn't great.

You just think it was because it had so few possessions to defend because our offense limited opposing offense possessions.

Our defense literally gave up 6 yds per play to the opposing team.

We were middle of the pack in punts per play and punts per score.

We were not exceptional in forcing TOs.

Middle of the pack in pretty much everything but 3rd down conversion % which makes sense when you consider we were giving up 6 yds per play that many opposing 1st down conversions did not need a 3rd down.

Norton did an OK job. But a lot of that was the result of an offense that kept his opponents from possessing the ball in the first place. It was a middle of the pack defense with a slightly above average in scores per play #s and scores per drive. Good, but nothing you pin your playoff hopes on.



Considering the personnel we had on D, middle of the pack seems pretty good.

Not sure you are going to have a top 10 defense with guys like Shaq and Calitro starting and playing key roles.

All things considered, you have to be at least decently pleased with the defensive performance this year.
 

Sgt. Largent

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flmmkrz":vd5de3gt said:
Sgt. Largent":vd5de3gt said:
flmmkrz":vd5de3gt said:
Were the cbs and safeties really taught to be ball hawks by Richard or was he gifted generational talents. Earl has other worldly skills, Sherm was so heady and had receiver instincts, Kam was just a beast and had a knack for creating turnovers... and whomever they sprinkled in just benefited from playing with those guys....the more that got asked of that 4th and beyond guy(s) or as they parlayed their success into paychecks away from these other 3 the more they got exposed.

No Richard was taught to teach DB's to ball hawk and play his style of defensive back at USC by Pete.

People forget that Pete is one of the greatest DB coaches in the history of football, and defense in general.

Yeah Griffin has an absolute HORRENDOUS game against the Cowboys, but if anyone doubts Pete's skill at assembling another great defense after what we saw him do with this defense made up of new players and band aids this year, hasn't been paying attention.

Resign Sweezy and Fluker, give Russ a new contract then focus all the cap and draft picks on the defensive side of the ball, and we'll be back in the playoffs. Guaranteed.

I haven't forgotten any of that but what I'm saying is this defense was still generating turnovers this year so to say Richard would've had some dramatic difference this year is overstating it. Any secondary coach brought on is going to be teaching what Pete wants them to know so this isn't something unique that Richard brought to the table. I have 0 doubts as to Petes ability to put out great defenses but I argue the premise of this thread that Richards moving on held this defense back in some way

We're saying the same thing. *high five*

To me this thread is confusing, this defense overachieved well beyond what most thought it would achieve after the purge of key players that retired, left and got traded.

Maybe Richard would have continued to do well here, but if we're handing out blame for Sunday's loss, or any loss this year?....................... defensive coaching is at the bottom of the list. Pete and Norton have done an amazing job teaching the new players and coaching this defense this year.
 

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