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  • The same excuses you give Rodgers, or other detractors will give Rivers, Ben, Ryan. The 10-7 in the playoffs Aaron Rodgers.

    Ive watched Wilson take snaps and run for his life for a whole half, throw for 300 plus, 3 plus TDs and have nothing to show for it but absurd disdain or indifference for the efforts.

    Rodgers gets hero like accolades for his performances, somehow gets bailed out of criticism by others with blame going to coaches and other players, all the while doing basically the same as wilson in their careers.

    Its dumb. More than that, the continued effort in limiting Wilsons achievements through minimalizing them while waiting for a bad game to embolden the next wave of criticism is tiresome and demonstrates a willingness to only undercut the conversation while pretending to have it

    I actually hoped for more from you.
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Rodgers, Brady or Rottenbarfer could throw a bunch of picks in a game and lose, and it would get spun as being anyone BUT their own fault. Russ had a horrific first half (in part to butterfingers Kearse, but he was way off) and took the team back from 16 points with 5 minutes to go to go to his 2ND STRAIGHT SUPERBOWL. But somehow, it wasn't because of him, it was because the Pack coaches messed up etc. Rodgers is unreal, but winning games and playoff games? He has been no better than Russ.


    All three of these cities have been ready to run their QB's out of town at one time or another.

    Hell I got a buddy in Boston that said he was never going to watch another Patriot game again because they traded Garoppolo cause he thought Brady was done.

    Steelers fans were pissed the last three or four drafts because they didn't draft a QB because they think Roethlessberger is going to fall apart at any time.

    Same in GB, their fan boards are on fire with every poor Rodgers game.

    So stop with the made up hyperbole, it's the same in every city. Fans are way more critical on their QB, coaches, players and coordinators.
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  • Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:I will add that Russ has only finished in the top-10 in yards once, I believe. Not that yards is a measure of efficiency, but does show that he is asked to, and produces less than many other quarterbacks. A lot of quarterbacks can only achieve team success by throwing the ball into the teeth of zones that are singularly focused on preventing him from doing so. Russ, outside of last year, which was his worst year, I believe, has never really been saddled with that burden.

    We tried to build around the passing game, gave him a HOF TE, spent early draft picks on WR's, and the experiment fell on it's face. We committed again to becoming a run-first team, became the best running team in football, and Russ is flourishing. I think everybody in the building realized that building around the passing game wasn't an option.

    Hugh Millen uttered a line a few weeks ago that I thought was pretty fantastic..."Russell Wilson will win you a ton of games, as long as you don't ask Russell Wilson to win you a ton of games."


    Well, like most haters, you are wrong. Top 10 twice. Want to know what years? 2016 and 2017.....yet people like you hate him more than ever. :roll: Russell plays for Pete Carroll, did you know that? Reason I ask is Pete is a run first coach. Did you know that? If you did, you would put "yards per season" as a non issue to determine your QB's effectiveness. So I'll assume you just learned 2 new things.


    Elway only broke 4,000 yards one season out of 17. He probably wasn't elite either by some people's reasoning on this thread. It's laughable how people will stand by a position that is wrong.

    In the 80's and 90's, not even half the league threw for 3,000, let alone 4.
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  • Seymour wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:I will add that Russ has only finished in the top-10 in yards once, I believe. Not that yards is a measure of efficiency, but does show that he is asked to, and produces less than many other quarterbacks. A lot of quarterbacks can only achieve team success by throwing the ball into the teeth of zones that are singularly focused on preventing him from doing so. Russ, outside of last year, which was his worst year, I believe, has never really been saddled with that burden.

    We tried to build around the passing game, gave him a HOF TE, spent early draft picks on WR's, and the experiment fell on it's face. We committed again to becoming a run-first team, became the best running team in football, and Russ is flourishing. I think everybody in the building realized that building around the passing game wasn't an option.

    Hugh Millen uttered a line a few weeks ago that I thought was pretty fantastic..."Russell Wilson will win you a ton of games, as long as you don't ask Russell Wilson to win you a ton of games."


    Well, like most haters, you are wrong. Top 10 twice. Want to know what years? 2016 and 2017.....yet people like you hate him more than ever. :roll: Russell plays for Pete Carroll, did you know that? Reason I ask is Pete is a run first coach. Did you know that? If you did, you would put "yards per season" as a non issue to determine your QB's effectiveness. So I'll assume you just learned 2 new things.

    Sorry, I didn't notice that 10th most yards season. I'm saying most of the others don't get the luxury of playing for "run first" coaches. He's asked to do less than many others. That is a fact. They have to go out and get yards that he doesn't have to go out and get. Get it?

    Thanks for the lesson.
    Last edited by Tical21 on Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • Tical21 wrote:
    Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:I will add that Russ has only finished in the top-10 in yards once, I believe. Not that yards is a measure of efficiency, but does show that he is asked to, and produces less than many other quarterbacks. A lot of quarterbacks can only achieve team success by throwing the ball into the teeth of zones that are singularly focused on preventing him from doing so. Russ, outside of last year, which was his worst year, I believe, has never really been saddled with that burden.

    We tried to build around the passing game, gave him a HOF TE, spent early draft picks on WR's, and the experiment fell on it's face. We committed again to becoming a run-first team, became the best running team in football, and Russ is flourishing. I think everybody in the building realized that building around the passing game wasn't an option.

    Hugh Millen uttered a line a few weeks ago that I thought was pretty fantastic..."Russell Wilson will win you a ton of games, as long as you don't ask Russell Wilson to win you a ton of games."


    Well, like most haters, you are wrong. Top 10 twice. Want to know what years? 2016 and 2017.....yet people like you hate him more than ever. :roll: Russell plays for Pete Carroll, did you know that? Reason I ask is Pete is a run first coach. Did you know that? If you did, you would put "yards per season" as a non issue to determine your QB's effectiveness. So I'll assume you just learned 2 new things.


    Elway only broke 4,000 yards one season out of 17. He probably wasn't elite either by some people's reasoning on this thread. It's laughable how people will stand by a position that is wrong.

    In the 80's and 90's, not even half the league threw for 3,000, let alone 4.


    So you're saying that an elite QB doesn't have to meet your self-made criteria to be called elite? We can cherry pick stats all day. Russ already has twice the 30+ TD seasons as Joe Montana. Jeez.... I'd sure hate to be that pedestrian. :roll: The bottom line is, his passer rating, completion percentage and every measurable aspect of his performance is elite. Your "feelings" don't change his performance.
    Last edited by Sox-n-Hawks on Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:
    Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Well, like most haters, you are wrong. Top 10 twice. Want to know what years? 2016 and 2017.....yet people like you hate him more than ever. :roll: Russell plays for Pete Carroll, did you know that? Reason I ask is Pete is a run first coach. Did you know that? If you did, you would put "yards per season" as a non issue to determine your QB's effectiveness. So I'll assume you just learned 2 new things.


    Elway only broke 4,000 yards one season out of 17. He probably wasn't elite either by some people's reasoning on this thread. It's laughable how people will stand by a position that is wrong.

    In the 80's and 90's, not even half the league threw for 3,000, let alone 4.


    So you're saying that an elite QB doesn't have to meet your self-made criteria to be called elite? We can cherry pick stats all day. Russ already has twice the 30+ TD seasons as Joe Montana. Jeez.... I'd sure hate to be that pedestrian. :roll:

    What criteria are you talking about?
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  • Si,

    Let me clarify.

    I am happy with the offense.

    Happy with how Wilson is playing in this offense.

    And I think he is a great QB. He is certainly top#7. He has attributes you cannot teach and he does things that most QBs are not capable of.

    I am not sandbagging Wilson. And Rodgers is responsible for his own mess, most of the reason he has to carry the team is because he is making so much money that his team cannot keep anyone. I don't like Rodgers and I think his own approach screwed his team.

    But Rodgers is still elite. And I still think Wilson has to be able to carry a team in playoff games to get that label. I think he is capable of it. And I think a lot of the missing pieces are now there.

    But we have to move to a point where it is less about excuses and why Wilson couldn't do something (or shouldn't be expected to) and instead about what he delivers. That book is not closed yet.

    I think Wilson still has problems with the things that most average QBs can do regularly but he does things that few of the elite QBs can do - and he does them regularly. However, at some point...ideally now, potential has to turn into reliable production.

    I think it is possible though. I don't think that requires him to be elite regardless but carrying the team through the playoffs (not a SB just a playoff win) would be a big next step.
    Last edited by TwistedHusky on Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • :snack:
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  • Tical21 wrote:
    Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:
    Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    Elway only broke 4,000 yards one season out of 17. He probably wasn't elite either by some people's reasoning on this thread. It's laughable how people will stand by a position that is wrong.

    In the 80's and 90's, not even half the league threw for 3,000, let alone 4.


    So you're saying that an elite QB doesn't have to meet your self-made criteria to be called elite? We can cherry pick stats all day. Russ already has twice the 30+ TD seasons as Joe Montana. Jeez.... I'd sure hate to be that pedestrian. :roll:

    What criteria are you talking about?


    Maybe you can enlighten us as to the Objective performance criteria you'd like to evaluate. The OP did one hell of a good job doing that. Please. Enlighten us with stats to support your position.
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  • TwistedHusky wrote:Si,

    Let me clarify.

    I am happy with the offense.

    Happy with how Wilson is playing in this offense.

    And I think he is a great QB. He is certainly top#7. He has attributes you cannot teach and he does things that most QBs are not capable of.

    I am not sandbagging Wilson. And Rodgers is responsible for his own mess, most of the reason he has to carry the team is because he is making so much money that his team cannot keep anyone. I don't like Rodgers and I think his own approach screwed his team.

    But Rodgers is still elite. And I still think Wilson has to be able to carry a team in playoff games to get that label. I think he is capable of it. And I think a lot of the missing pieces are now there.

    But we have to move to a point where it is less about excuses and why Wilson couldn't do something (or shouldn't be expected to) and instead about what he delivers. That book is not closed yet.

    I think Wilson still has problems with the things that most average QBs can do regularly but he does things that few of the elite QBs can do - and he does them regularly. But at some point, potential has to turn into reliable production.

    I think it is possible though. I don't think that requires him to be elite regardless but carrying the team through the playoffs (not a SB just a playoff win) would be a big next step.


    Fair enough.

    I dont disagree on Rodgers. I do think Wilson deserves more credit from his critics.

    This thread has been far better from both "sides" than of late.

    Winning does that i suppose.

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  • And I don't like Rodgers, but some of the throws he makes are just plain stupid good. We basically laughed on 2 of those because the throws were so incredible. That being said, he body language and the way he calls out receivers and coaches? His leadership isn't near the level of Russ, and I guarantee a lot of his teammates don't like him.
    Amazing player, not really an amazing leader.
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:And I don't like Rodgers, but some of the throws he makes are just plain stupid good. We basically laughed on 2 of those because the throws were so incredible. That being said, he body language and the way he calls out receivers and coaches? His leadership isn't near the level of Russ, and I guarantee a lot of his teammates don't like him.
    Amazing player, not really an amazing leader.


    Definitely agree on the intangibles and leadership.

    Rodgers is a terrible team leader, sulks and outwardly blames everyone and everything for his failures other than himself.

    Hell he just said the ball stuck to his hand when he threw it into the dirt Thursday night. Not he just flat out missed the throw, the ball...........stuck.............to............his.............hand.

    That's a new one for me.

    Russell's corny as hell, but he's a great teammate, has an unrivaled work ethic and I've never seen him once not take 100% of the blame when we lose, never once making excuses.
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  • Tical21 wrote:@Fade, the most intriguing part of this post so far, to me, has been the discussion about Rodgers.

    If Russell can't be considered elite primarily because he holds the ball too long and misses critical windows against zone coverage, can we then say Rodgers is not elite because he holds the ball even longer?

    To be honest, I have never studied Rodgers on tape. My guess is that he holds the ball for different reasons than Russell, but it is a pretty interesting thought. TBF, I hold Rodgers in lower esteem than most do. He is an absolute god talent-wise, but he doesn't put it together often enough for me or win enough games. They're 4-5 far too often, and usually without horrible rosters.


    Brees goes 7-9 all the time. And I think he is one of the all-time greats.

    Where most of these casual fans lose track is they want to make everything a 1 to 1 comparison.

    What I am more interested in is how can a guy perform, when you take things away from him. The degree of difficulty.

    The systems, and O-lines these QBs play in can have a wild impact on their play.

    Goff & Trubisky prove my point resoundingly. So if you believe a QB can be helped by systems & O-line? Can't QBs be hindered by them as well? The answer is yes.

    Matt Ryan & Andrew Luck prove it, really any QB you find proves it. When you dive into their numbers the years they get the best O-Line play, they have their best seasons.

    The true greats find a way to maintain their production, and get it done regardless. Wilson is in that category irrefutably.

    Roethisberger is a fraud as an example.

    Top defenese, top O-Lines, top offensive coaching, top skill players. He has been handed everything. The lowest degree of difficulty. And he can't get the Steelers back to the big game? Fraud.

    Give Wilson all of that season after season, and he would have a cabinet full of trophies. Rivers, Brees, etc as well.

    Wilson has been playing in the opposite side of the spectrum offensively (-minus defense). A super high degree of difficulty.

    So if Big Ben is elite, then Russell Wilson is elite. Wilson has outproduced him while being placed in an impossible, unsustainable situation for 50ish games. This in no small sample size here.

    When you look at the bottom portion of the elite tier. Ryan, Luck. Newton. These guys crumble behind bad O-Lines. Wilson bodies them, and then puts up numbers right there with many players that people consider the GOAT's of the sport.

    The most underrated player in Seattle sports history.


    On to Rodgers he is actually very similar to Wilson in terms of style of play. They love to hold the ball and extend plays looking for the home run downfield. Missing checkdowns and wideopen players underneath. When it works fans cheer, when it doesn't well Wilson held the ball too long, not elite, he can't see. With Rodgers it's let's make every excuse in the book for him.

    It's hard to grade out who is actually worse at holding the ball because. Wilson's lines have been so bad that it doesn't hurt their DVOA protection rating that bad.

    While Rodgers kills the great O-Lines he has had by holding the ball.

    2017
    Wilson: Oline PFF = 25, DVOA Protection = 25

    Rodgers Oline PFF = 5, DVOA Protection = 28

    Wilson & Rodgers are the two hardest great QBs to block for. But to get an accurate comparison we need Seattle's O-Line play to get into the top 10. Regardless I wouldn't care anyway because Wilson's numbers would explode, due to how elite he is if he ever found himself with a top 10 O-Line.

    I am too lazy to re-pull up the numbers on Brees & Brady. But they obviously help their lines. It is a style of play choice.
    And yes Wilson needs to improve in this area, I am not absolving him of it.

    Just pointing out even other elite guys don't get the ball out quickly, you cannot have a double standard.

    Rodgers loses because he has a horrible attitude, and struggles with adversity. He is amazing beating up on tomato cans, but put another elite QB in front of him, and he usually wilts in the clutch. He is something like 0-34 when trailing against a winning team in the 4th qtr.

    He has had good teams around him as well. The defenses have been a problem in years past, but that is not the case this year. The Packers defense leads the league in sacks. They have a top Oline, with a great mix of skill players, and a good young runningback. Yet he can't manage a winning record? LOL.

    Rodgers also has a horrible career record on the road.

    These guys have worts. They are not as great as the media tells you they are. Put them under the microscope and you will see.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:And I don't like Rodgers, but some of the throws he makes are just plain stupid good. We basically laughed on 2 of those because the throws were so incredible. That being said, he body language and the way he calls out receivers and coaches? His leadership isn't near the level of Russ, and I guarantee a lot of his teammates don't like him.
    Amazing player, not really an amazing leader.


    Definitely agree on the intangibles and leadership.

    Rodgers is a terrible team leader, sulks and outwardly blames everyone and everything for his failures other than himself.

    Hell he just said the ball stuck to his hand when he threw it into the dirt Thursday night. Not he just flat out missed the throw, the ball...........stuck.............to............his.............hand.

    That's a new one for me.

    Russell's corny as hell, but he's a great teammate, has an unrivaled work ethic and I've never seen him once not take 100% of the blame when we lose, never once making excuses.


    Interesting how "the ball" can stick to your hands when your fingers don't let go because you just CHOKED your last game winning drive.

    Given that BS I'd say the reason we lost to the Rams is the scoreboard got stuck on Seahawks 31. :snack:
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  • Tical21 wrote:I will add that Russ has only finished in the top-10 in yards once, I believe. Not that yards is a measure of efficiency, but does show that he is asked to, and produces less than many other quarterbacks. A lot of quarterbacks can only achieve team success by throwing the ball into the teeth of zones that are singularly focused on preventing him from doing so. Russ, outside of last year, which was his worst year, I believe, has never really been saddled with that burden.

    We tried to build around the passing game, gave him a HOF TE, spent early draft picks on WR's, and the experiment fell on it's face. We committed again to becoming a run-first team, became the best running team in football, and Russ is flourishing. I think everybody in the building realized that building around the passing game wasn't an option.

    Hugh Millen uttered a line a few weeks ago that I thought was pretty fantastic..."Russell Wilson will win you a ton of games, as long as you don't ask Russell Wilson to win you a ton of games."


    Do the 2200 yards he rushed for between 2014-2017 not count towards the offense? Wilson has been responsible for on average of 4,500 total yards of offense each of the past 4 years.
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  • I really want to end all this drama with you guys and the perception that I'm a flat out Wilson hater. I love this team and have been a season ticket holder for almost a decade. I'm also heavily involved in several charity programs that many of the players are involved in. My biggest flaw as a fan at times is I've always had a glass half empty outlook on things. Wilson exceeded all our expectations as a rookie and beyond but has recently been off. That has obviously clouded my judgement of him. Just wanted to clear things up with some of you. I want Wilson to succeed as well as this team. Cheers. :2thumbs:
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  • Tical21 wrote: Rodgers has so many style points that his warts are offset by things that we see almost weekly that nobody else has been able to do. Guys aren't supposed to be able to flick their wrist from their back foot and throw a 40-yard dime.

    He's like Freddy Couples. Freddy doesn't have a HOF resume. He isn't in the HOF, his immaculate golf swing is.


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    You were saying.



    The more you argue the bigger hole you dig.


    You're on the ropes right now, I got some advice for you.... hit the one in the middle.

    *EDIT* I missed the quote tag. LOL.
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  • RCATES wrote:I really want to end all this drama with you guys and the perception that I'm a flat out Wilson hater. I love this team and have been a season ticket holder for almost a decade. I'm also heavily involved in several charity programs that many of the players are involved in. My biggest flaw as a fan at times is I've always had a glass half empty outlook on things. Wilson exceeded all our expectations as a rookie and beyond but has recently been off. That has obviously clouded my judgement of him. Just wanted to clear things up with some of you. I want Wilson to succeed as well as this team. Cheers. :2thumbs:


    I don’t define “recently been off” by throwing TD passes, having a perfect QBR game while learning to work with an entirely new OC. Facts.


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  • Sorry. Perfect isn't good enough when you're 4 feet 11...
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  • Tical you have been a great poster for years.Whether I agree or not I can always see the logic in your arguments. The fact people here have so many different takes on subjects is what makes this place work.
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  • I think the criteria of what makes an elite QB is holding this up and again we are holding Wilson for the most part to a critical standard because we’ve seen him at his highest of highs and his lowest of lows and for the most part dissected everything he has done in between.

    I’m not saying some people haven’t watched other QBs on that level (maybe some of you have the type of life where you can pour your time and energy into that. I’m guessing the majority of detractors aren’t privy to that) but I’m saying you have watched Wilson with the passion of being a Seahawks fan because you watch every Seahawks game and that puts him under the microscope and absolutely desensitizes Wilson to the rest of the NFL’s elite if all you are valuing is thier highlight reels and fantasy stats and what the majority of talkings heads say and like I said most of them (not all) are more instigators/promoters than professors.

    What is Russell Wilson in a nutshell?

    Find me a QB more consistent that at least ranks top 5, top 8 in all these categories:

    Deep Passing
    Passing against the Blitz
    Passing off Play Action
    TD/Int Effeciency
    QB rating
    Rushing
    RPO fits
    Scrambling/Unpredictably
    The way he affects defensive schemes
    Winning/Competitiveness
    Availability/Health
    Yards Per Attempt/Adjusted Yards Per Attempt (as this reduces the advantage of volume passing)

    For instance on the last one Wilson has a career AYA of 8.1, Luck on the other hand has only 7.0, in my quick research Wilson is only behind Rodger’s 8.5 out of most of the QBs named in this thread. Which means while he isn’t getting the volume of attempts as some of his contemporaries, he’s still executing at variably high level as a passer more often than not.

    The only categories I would not say Wilson isn’t top 5, top 8 in is:

    In the pocket (which is the key argument in all of these types of threads)
    Yards per Game
    Throwing WRs open for YAC

    But a pocket QB needs a pocket to function and we’ve seen Wilson dominate at times when he does have clean pockets but his offensive lines have been far from consistent to what the top QBs have experienced.

    And Wilson has found a way to be successful in spite of having some of the worst pass-blocking lines, without a truly legit #1 receiving target, and without a great offensive minded genius allowing him to push the threshold of his capabilities.

    Wilson is corralled in Pete’s vision whether you like it or not but we’ve seen Russ put the team on his back when needed and produce at high rate when given a high volume of the offense.

    If it weren’t for Blair Walsh in 2017, Seahawks are in the Playoffs with Russ accounting for 89% of the offense.

    In 2015, Wilson was lights out in that 2nd half and was unstoppable as a passer.

    In 2016, Russ still carried this team to a 10-6 record despite multiple injuries and behind perhaps the worst offensive line of his career.

    But those are outliers to Pete’s vision. If the goal is 6000 offensive yards, he wants Russ to only account for 3500 yards as a passer and then put 2500 on the ground. That’s his vision.

    You saw this in 2012-2014. It’s not a knock on Wilson but just how Carroll wants his offense to run. And in terms of that vision Wilson might be having the most consistent, most successful season game to game of his career where he might throw for under 3500 yards, where his sack% is the highest of his career, yet he’s on pace to have his highest TDs, 2nd lowest Ints, 2nd highest YPA and AYA plus highest QB rating of his career. Statistically, he’s having a season just as good or better as a passer on a per attempt basis as his 2015 season form. That’s not regression as some here have questioned.

    Russ under Carroll is never going to have the high volume nor the offensive scheme/personnel to give him the most elite passing stats but despite that he’s still holding his own in producing as much as the top QBs in this league. That means something. You cannot just discount that. I don’t think anyone but Wilson could have survived what he has and still do what he does in the whole body of his work.

    I completely get where Tical is coming from but it’s not Fade argument... if you want to argue Wilson as a consistently elite passer... that’s debatable... However, Russ as a consistently elite QB... I think Wilson is right on that line with his overall body of work. No doubt.
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  • RCATES wrote:I really want to end all this drama with you guys and the perception that I'm a flat out Wilson hater. I love this team and have been a season ticket holder for almost a decade. I'm also heavily involved in several charity programs that many of the players are involved in. My biggest flaw as a fan at times is I've always had a glass half empty outlook on things. Wilson exceeded all our expectations as a rookie and beyond but has recently been off. That has obviously clouded my judgement of him. Just wanted to clear things up with some of you. I want Wilson to succeed as well as this team. Cheers. :2thumbs:


    The inconsistency in his play is whats brought this debate on. And the criticism is fair.

    Hes both elite and sometimes infuriating
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  • Pandion Haliaetus wrote:I think the criteria of what makes an elite QB is holding this up and again we are holding Wilson for the most part to a critical standard because we’ve seen him at his highest of highs and his lowest of lows and for the most part dissected everything he has done in between.

    I’m not saying some people haven’t watched other QBs on that level (maybe some of you have the type of life where you can pour your time and energy into that. I’m guessing the majority of detractors aren’t privy to that) but I’m saying you have watched Wilson with the passion of being a Seahawks fan because you watch every Seahawks game and that puts him under the microscope and absolutely desensitizes Wilson to the rest of the NFL’s elite if all you are valuing is thier highlight reels and fantasy stats and what the majority of talkings heads say and like I said most of them (not all) are more instigators/promoters than professors.

    What is Russell Wilson in a nutshell?

    Find me a QB more consistent that at least ranks top 5, top 8 in all these categories:

    Deep Passing
    Passing against the Blitz
    Passing off Play Action
    TD/Int Effeciency
    QB rating
    Rushing
    RPO fits
    Scrambling/Unpredictably
    The way he affects defensive schemes
    Winning/Competitiveness
    Availability/Health
    Yards Per Attempt/Adjusted Yards Per Attempt (as this reduces the advantage of volume passing)

    For instance on the last one Wilson has a career AYA of 8.1, Luck on the other hand has only 7.0, in my quick research Wilson is only behind Rodger’s 8.5 out of most of the QBs named in this thread. Which means while he isn’t getting the volume of attempts as some of his contemporaries, he’s still executing at variably high level as a passer more often than not.

    The only categories I would not say Wilson isn’t top 5, top 8 in is:

    In the pocket (which is the key argument in all of these types of threads)
    Yards per Game
    Throwing WRs open for YAC

    But a pocket QB needs a pocket to function and we’ve seen Wilson dominate at times when he does have clean pockets but his offensive lines have been far from consistent to what the top QBs have experienced.

    And Wilson has found a way to be successful in spite of having some of the worst pass-blocking lines, without a truly legit #1 receiving target, and without a great offensive minded genius allowing him to push the threshold of his capabilities.

    Wilson is corralled in Pete’s vision whether you like it or not but we’ve seen Russ put the team on his back when needed and produce at high rate when given a high volume of the offense.

    If it weren’t for Blair Walsh in 2017, Seahawks are in the Playoffs with Russ accounting for 89% of the offense.

    In 2015, Wilson was lights out in that 2nd half and was unstoppable as a passer.

    In 2016, Russ still carried this team to a 10-6 record despite multiple injuries and behind perhaps the worst offensive line of his career.

    But those are outliers to Pete’s vision. If the goal is 6000 offensive yards, he wants Russ to only account for 3500 yards as a passer and then put 2500 on the ground. That’s his vision.

    You saw this in 2012-2014. It’s not a knock on Wilson but just how Carroll wants his offense to run. And in terms of that vision Wilson might be having the most consistent, most successful season game to game of his career where he might throw for under 3500 yards, where his sack% is the highest of his career, yet he’s on pace to have his highest TDs, 2nd lowest Ints, 2nd highest YPA and AYA plus highest QB rating of his career. Statistically, he’s having a season just as good or better as a passer on a per attempt basis as his 2015 season form. That’s not regression as some here have questioned.

    Russ under Carroll is never going to have the high volume nor the offensive scheme/personnel to give him the most elite passing stats but despite that he’s still holding his own in producing as much as the top QBs in this league. That means something. You cannot just discount that. I don’t think anyone but Wilson could have survived what he has and still do what he does in the whole body of his work.

    I completely get where Tical is coming from but it’s not Fade argument... if you want to argue Wilson as a consistently elite passer... that’s debatable... However, Russ as a consistently elite QB... I think Wilson is right on that line with his overall body of work. No doubt.



    Ding ding.... We have a winner
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  • Uncle Si wrote:
    RCATES wrote:I really want to end all this drama with you guys and the perception that I'm a flat out Wilson hater. I love this team and have been a season ticket holder for almost a decade. I'm also heavily involved in several charity programs that many of the players are involved in. My biggest flaw as a fan at times is I've always had a glass half empty outlook on things. Wilson exceeded all our expectations as a rookie and beyond but has recently been off. That has obviously clouded my judgement of him. Just wanted to clear things up with some of you. I want Wilson to succeed as well as this team. Cheers. :2thumbs:


    The inconsistency in his play is whats brought this debate on. And the critucism is fair.

    Hes both elite and sometimes infuriating



    Just like every star QB ever. You’ll find forum haters bagging on their QB for every 32 teams when they lose. Human behavior is nothing if not predictable. Many fans have unrealistic expectations of what a human is capable of. 100% consistency is impossible.
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  • Is anyone watching this Monday Night Football game??? LOL


    Both QBs have basically given up scores due to sack fumbles, poor throws. Both have made overthrows and missed some open guys(Goff and Mahomes). Other times they have guys running wide open with no defender around. Do some fans watch this with perspective? It's pretty clear the scheme of McVay and Andy Reid is what's truly elite here. Although I do like Mahomes.
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  • Scorpion05 wrote:Is anyone watching this Monday Night Football game??? LOL


    Both QBs have basically given up scores due to sack fumbles, poor throws. Both have made overthrows and missed some open guys(Goff and Mahomes). Other times they have guys running wide open with no defender around. Do some fans watch this with perspective? It's pretty clear the scheme of McVay and Andy Reid is what's truly elite here. Although I do like Mahomes.


    Yup... Remember the rams and Goff with Fisher? Coaching is the difference...... Russ would put up insane numbers with mcvay.
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  • Scorpion05 wrote:Is anyone watching this Monday Night Football game??? LOL


    Both QBs have basically given up scores due to sack fumbles, poor throws. Both have made overthrows and missed some open guys(Goff and Mahomes). Other times they have guys running wide open with no defender around. Do some fans watch this with perspective? It's pretty clear the scheme of McVay and Andy Reid is what's truly elite here. Although I do like Mahomes.


    Yep, check my comment on it in the LA vs KC thread in the NFL forum.

    I think my message is finally starting to seep through. :2thumbs:


    Adjust that lens and look at all of the QBs with the same standard, and mistakes start to appear everywhere.


    These dudes that say Russell is not elite, are not watching these other guys that way guaranteed.

    THE DOUBLE STANDARD IS THROUGH.

    I put the nail in the coffin.
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  • I think you're selling me a little short, but I digress.

    At the end of the day, whether or not he is "elite" or whatever, doesn't really matter. Can you win with him? Absolutely. Can you win while paying him top-shelf money? That question is a bit more murky. The talent level and record of the team have clearly diminished since he got paid. I blame age of the core and poor drafting far more than the play of Russell, but it is worth thinking about. Can you win while paying him 25-30 per? That would be the question. However, there is a 0% chance that they don't pay him, so any thought put into the matter is a fool's errand.

    Just do me a favor and watch the coach's tape for a game or two, look at whether the opponent is in zone or man presnap, and watch what happens. Or, if you can, determine that presnap while you're watching the game live and see what happens. It isn't a coincidence that the team he put up a perfect rating against is the team on our schedule that plays more man coverage than any other team. Just humor me and take a look, and you'll see things you can't unsee.
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  • Pandion Haliaetus wrote:I think the criteria of what makes an elite QB is holding this up and again we are holding Wilson for the most part to a critical standard because we’ve seen him at his highest of highs and his lowest of lows and for the most part dissected everything he has done in between.

    I’m not saying some people haven’t watched other QBs on that level (maybe some of you have the type of life where you can pour your time and energy into that. I’m guessing the majority of detractors aren’t privy to that) but I’m saying you have watched Wilson with the passion of being a Seahawks fan because you watch every Seahawks game and that puts him under the microscope and absolutely desensitizes Wilson to the rest of the NFL’s elite if all you are valuing is thier highlight reels and fantasy stats and what the majority of talkings heads say and like I said most of them (not all) are more instigators/promoters than professors.

    What is Russell Wilson in a nutshell?

    Find me a QB more consistent that at least ranks top 5, top 8 in all these categories:

    Deep Passing
    Passing against the Blitz
    Passing off Play Action
    TD/Int Effeciency
    QB rating
    Rushing
    RPO fits
    Scrambling/Unpredictably
    The way he affects defensive schemes
    Winning/Competitiveness
    Availability/Health
    Yards Per Attempt/Adjusted Yards Per Attempt (as this reduces the advantage of volume passing)

    For instance on the last one Wilson has a career AYA of 8.1, Luck on the other hand has only 7.0, in my quick research Wilson is only behind Rodger’s 8.5 out of most of the QBs named in this thread. Which means while he isn’t getting the volume of attempts as some of his contemporaries, he’s still executing at variably high level as a passer more often than not.

    The only categories I would not say Wilson isn’t top 5, top 8 in is:

    In the pocket (which is the key argument in all of these types of threads)
    Yards per Game
    Throwing WRs open for YAC

    But a pocket QB needs a pocket to function and we’ve seen Wilson dominate at times when he does have clean pockets but his offensive lines have been far from consistent to what the top QBs have experienced.

    And Wilson has found a way to be successful in spite of having some of the worst pass-blocking lines, without a truly legit #1 receiving target, and without a great offensive minded genius allowing him to push the threshold of his capabilities.

    Wilson is corralled in Pete’s vision whether you like it or not but we’ve seen Russ put the team on his back when needed and produce at high rate when given a high volume of the offense.

    If it weren’t for Blair Walsh in 2017, Seahawks are in the Playoffs with Russ accounting for 89% of the offense.

    In 2015, Wilson was lights out in that 2nd half and was unstoppable as a passer.

    In 2016, Russ still carried this team to a 10-6 record despite multiple injuries and behind perhaps the worst offensive line of his career.

    But those are outliers to Pete’s vision. If the goal is 6000 offensive yards, he wants Russ to only account for 3500 yards as a passer and then put 2500 on the ground. That’s his vision.

    You saw this in 2012-2014. It’s not a knock on Wilson but just how Carroll wants his offense to run. And in terms of that vision Wilson might be having the most consistent, most successful season game to game of his career where he might throw for under 3500 yards, where his sack% is the highest of his career, yet he’s on pace to have his highest TDs, 2nd lowest Ints, 2nd highest YPA and AYA plus highest QB rating of his career. Statistically, he’s having a season just as good or better as a passer on a per attempt basis as his 2015 season form. That’s not regression as some here have questioned.

    Russ under Carroll is never going to have the high volume nor the offensive scheme/personnel to give him the most elite passing stats but despite that he’s still holding his own in producing as much as the top QBs in this league. That means something. You cannot just discount that. I don’t think anyone but Wilson could have survived what he has and still do what he does in the whole body of his work.

    I completely get where Tical is coming from but it’s not Fade argument... if you want to argue Wilson as a consistently elite passer... that’s debatable... However, Russ as a consistently elite QB... I think Wilson is right on that line with his overall body of work. No doubt.


    Excellent post, with a lot of good info in there. And I am glad people are understanding what I am trying to articulate.

    I type things sometimes, and have no idea how people are going to take it.

    The volume argument in null and void as well as I will explain.

    As a High volume passer in 2017 he led the league in Total Yards combined (both running & throwing), Total TDs, and Passing TDs.

    With an inept O-line, an oblivious, going through the motions at times play caller, and no running game.

    Wilson was the show, teams were not game planning for Lynch or anyone like that. They were gameplainning to stop Wilson, all 22 eyeballs of the defenders were on him, with no time to throw.

    They could sit in 2 High coverages, which is translation for teams daring you to run because they think you are inept.
    When you see 2 high, you're supposed to run them out of 2 high. The Seahawks couldn't, they sucked. And that is why everyone got fired.

    2 high looks are far harder to throw against than single high looks with no time to throw. Because the underneath defenders can squat on all of the underneath routes because they have safety help over the top. It is the hardest situation to be put in as a QB when they do not have time to throw. Wilson was put in this situation consistently as a QB in both '16, & '17.

    Wilson still tore up the league in 2017, it didn't stop him.


    He wasn't as effective as he could've been. BUT GET THIS…

    instead of these critics blaming the coaching & personnel staffs for not properly supporting the QB. It's Wilson's fault for not performing miracles.

    This sort of criticism would be like blaming Marsawn Lynch for getting tackled immediately in the backfield instead of criticizing the O-Line.

    It is insane, delusional, and lacks total perspective.

    If Wilson wasn't elite he would've been exposed last year, and would've had one of those pedestrian Matt Ryan seasons.
    (He has had many.)

    Nope, instead he damn near Won the MVP.
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  • Tical21 wrote:I think you're selling me a little short, but I digress.

    At the end of the day, whether or not he is "elite" or whatever, doesn't really matter. Can you win with him? Absolutely. Can you win while paying him top-shelf money? That question is a bit more murky. The talent level and record of the team have clearly diminished since he got paid. I blame age of the core and poor drafting far more than the play of Russell, but it is worth thinking about. Can you win while paying him 25-30 per? That would be the question. However, there is a 0% chance that they don't pay him, so any thought put into the matter is a fool's errand.

    Just do me a favor and watch the coach's tape for a game or two, look at whether the opponent is in zone or man presnap, and watch what happens. Or, if you can, determine that presnap while you're watching the game live and see what happens. It isn't a coincidence that the team he put up a perfect rating against is the team on our schedule that plays more man coverage than any other team. Just humor me and take a look, and you'll see things you can't unsee.


    Please do the same for all "elite" QBs, but take into account the plays that Wilson makes that none of these guys can make other than Rodgers would've made while watching. So you can actually get a realistic baseline. Instead of your baseline being perfection.

    PS

    Stop listening to Hugh Millen. If you're getting this from him STAHP, or at least take what he is saying with a grain of salt.

    If you only listened to Hugh Millen speak about Hasselbeck, & Wilson, but never got to see either of them play. You would think Hasselbeck was the future HoFer, and Wilson was the 2nd tier guy.

    I don't mind analysts who want to be hard graders, but they have to stay consistent to remain credible. He treated Hasselbeck with kid gloves, it was always someone else's fault when it came to Hasselbeck. With Wilson it is always his fault. Anything grey area he piles on Wilson. He has an agenda.
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  • Tical21 wrote:I think you're selling me a little short, but I digress.

    At the end of the day, whether or not he is "elite" or whatever, doesn't really matter. Can you win with him? Absolutely. Can you win while paying him top-shelf money? That question is a bit more murky. The talent level and record of the team have clearly diminished since he got paid. I blame age of the core and poor drafting far more than the play of Russell, but it is worth thinking about. Can you win while paying him 25-30 per? That would be the question. However, there is a 0% chance that they don't pay him, so any thought put into the matter is a fool's errand.


    That's a question you can pose about any QB in the league though - Brady, Eli and Big Ben are the only multiple superbowl winners in the league at the moment and none of them are paid that top level.

    Rodgers and Brees have just 1 win each despite illustrious careers and big contracts. So the question shouldn't really be "is Wilson elite enough to command 25-30" - he is, and he will. The question is "can you get by with a lesser level of QB play and still win the superbowl". And the answer is also "yes", but you need generational talent elsewhere in the team to do so anyway.
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  • Add in all of RWs 800 and 600 yard rushing seasons and he is in the top 10 quite a bit I imagine. (I am not doing that legwork)

    Goff and Mahomes were actually crap. They missed a ton of wide open guys, held the ball too long, 5 turnovers for Mahomes, Goff throws a horrible pass that Scandrick drops (should have been game over there because Reid would have been smart enough to run out the clock, McVay? gross)

    Fun game to watch, but actually so much bad football
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  • Glad I'm not the only one who thinks a 100 plus point game isn't a great game. I need some defense.
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  • Tical made the point that is getting overlooked in the entire 'elite' debate.

    It doesn't matter if Wilson is elite. It matters if he is the elite that can produce success when he has less to work with, consistently.

    Now, to Wilson's credit - he has produced without a lot of important components that most QBs need to have in order to produce. His OL was pretty poor and for a few years, his RB production was iffy. It was also an issue that his OC seemed to be holding him back. However, his issues with the slow starts have continued so that might be a function of Wilson himself (even though his old OC was still worth removing for other reasons).

    So there were lots of reasons to give him excuses. And for the most part, those excuses were valid.

    But he was also gifted with a defense that could hold the opposing team down so that he could fail multiple times, get multiple knocks at the door, and eventually kick it in. Being consistent was not an issue, he didn't need to covert at a high % because drivers that were punts or FGs would eventually turn into a TD drive. Meanwhile, the opposing team was being kept within one score.

    Now that defense is gone. And so is the luxury of knowing you can 3 and out multiple times while still coming back to win.

    He has to score to keep us in games. I believe in the average NFL game the average winning team in the NFL scores 28pts. That leaves 30 pts as objective if you want to win football games. But with the big contract the issue will become - does this team become the Saints, Packers or Steelers? Because once that contract is signed, our team will be thinner and Wilson is going to have to produce in spite of the excuses. He won't have the help he got in years past.

    The question is whether he is the kind of elite that can carry a team that is missing pieces or the kind that puts up good numbers but cannot overcome the holes his own large contract creates. It also bothers me that Carroll does not seem to want to put the offense on his shoulders. Is that because of Carroll's predilection to the run game or because he feels Wilson cannot be the guy to carry the full load consistently for 4 quarters? (Carroll seemed just fine with passing all over the place at USC - so it isn't some aversion to the pass.)
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  • Russell has had less to work with almost his whole career while consistently playing at the highest level. The Russell isn't elite crowd is the most baffling position I've encountered in sports in a long time. Cowherd in the video above is spot on.
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Glad I'm not the only one who thinks a 100 plus point game isn't a great game. I need some defense.


    Welcome to the new NFL, that was exactly what the league wants.

    It's exciting for anyone not a fan of the Chiefs or Rams, but I guarantee you we'd be sick with how terrible our defense played over and over every drive if that game was involving the Hawks.

    But hell, for a non rooting interest fan of football? That was pretty damn exciting to watch.
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  • But it is also why the QB numbers have to be taken in context.

    It is easier now. By far.

    You cannot compare the #s with guys like Jim Kelly that were not allowed to slide or even throw the ball away.

    Much less compare them to Montana or Young. We are going to see QBs putting up 400 yard games regularly at some point, not because they are great but because they play in offenses that emphasize production vs defenses that are hamstrung by rules and schemes designed to de-emphasize them.

    On one hand, this has to be the future because the hard-hitting, physical nature of football is not sustainable. Players know about the CTE risk and parents won't put their kids into the game at all unless the collisions are mitigated/minimized. So I get the league is doing this in order to save itself - but it derails most if not all the records because it isn't comparable.
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  • Fade wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:Is anyone watching this Monday Night Football game??? LOL


    Both QBs have basically given up scores due to sack fumbles, poor throws. Both have made overthrows and missed some open guys(Goff and Mahomes). Other times they have guys running wide open with no defender around. Do some fans watch this with perspective? It's pretty clear the scheme of McVay and Andy Reid is what's truly elite here. Although I do like Mahomes.


    Yep, check my comment on it in the LA vs KC thread in the NFL forum.

    I think my message is finally starting to seep through. :2thumbs:


    Adjust that lens and look at all of the QBs with the same standard, and mistakes start to appear everywhere.


    These dudes that say Russell is not elite, are not watching these other guys that way guaranteed.

    THE DOUBLE STANDARD IS THROUGH.

    I put the nail in the coffin.


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    I hope you used ring shank nails, because the critics are already prying on them. :roll:

    Sadly....the work will never be done because "he just can't see"....too short....
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  • And with all the ticky tack calls against Defenses these days, it makes it real tough to keep a good offense under 30 points. I guess I just prefer old school snot knockers with some defense. Not that it wasn't a fun game to watch.
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  • But you can compare his numbers with todays QB's and he's still at an elite level playing in an offense that isn't conducive to huge numbers. Russell is elite and the only people claiming otherwise are fans. Ask players, NFL front office personnel, people who's job is to report on the NFL and interact internally. Clayton who for a long time was a little harsh on Russell now says its a given league wide. Russ is a top 5 QB in this league. His passer rating, TD/INT ratio, GW drives, 4th quarter passer rating, 4th quarter TD record last year and I could go on and on. He's elite.
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  • "Russell is asked to do less"..... not really. last season he was asked to be the offensive line and the running game besides playing QB. What other QB was asked to do that? Now he is back to being asked to complete passes and score points when the whole world knows what play is coming.
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  • Russ is good. No question.

    Sometimes he's great. No doubt.

    Both the above are even more impressive given his short stature and crappy O-Line/running game history the past few seasons.

    O-Line is now better. Running game is now better. Russel playing well - sometimes great.

    Do we pay him the big $$$$ and try and build around him or let him go and gamble on lower cost QB and build even more around that guy?

    Decisions...decisions...
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  • 1 of 20. Russell is one of only 20QBs to start in multiple Super Bowls. When he goes to his next Superbowl it's be 1 of 13 that have played in 3 or more. I think he's just fine.
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  • semiahmoo wrote:
    Do we pay him the big $$$$ and try and build around him or let him go and gamble on lower cost QB and build even more around that guy? .


    That is the 30 million dollar question.

    As of right now, I'd be OK with franchising Russell for a year and trying our best to find the next great young QB in the draft.

    Bottom line for me, I wouldn't be comfortable trading or letting Russell walk without his replacement on the roster and ready to roll. That's EXACTLY how you become one of the 25 have nots trading away all their draft picks swinging and missing on QB's year after year and going 5-11.

    In other words, you don't trade a top 5-10 QB without his replacement on the roster.
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  • Uncle Si wrote:
    RCATES wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Thx for the laugh. They won 9 games last year with a HISTORICALLY bad Running game, a HORRIFIC O-Line and a ridiculous amount of injuries to some of the best players in the league.
    But yeah, he can't carry a team. Do you even watch football, or do just literally hate the guy? :roll:
    Still between 4-7 in the league and is in the prime of his career. This team is in good hands w/Russ.




    That's nice. Russ finally has a Elite O-Line, #1 run game in the league and a top 5 defense. We're 5-5. 2-10 in the last 12 games decided by a TD or less.


    Do you put that on the qb?


    Not ALL Quarterbacks, just one---> Russell Wilson.
    Opinion Shifters (like Shape Shifters), not only rely on Cherry Picking, but also Nit Picking to twist shit around to fit any point of view.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    semiahmoo wrote:
    Do we pay him the big $$$$ and try and build around him or let him go and gamble on lower cost QB and build even more around that guy? .


    That is the 30 million dollar question.

    As of right now, I'd be OK with franchising Russell for a year and trying our best to find the next great young QB in the draft.

    Bottom line for me, I wouldn't be comfortable trading or letting Russell walk without his replacement on the roster and ready to roll. That's EXACTLY how you become one of the 25 have nots trading away all their draft picks swinging and missing on QB's year after year and going 5-11.

    In other words, you don't trade a top 5-10 QB without his replacement on the roster.


    The chances of finding a rookie QB who turns into a Wilson level talent is very rare. Ask Cleveland. Goff and Mahomes are playing well but they also have two of the brightest offensive minds in the league coaching them and play calling for them, we don't have that. Seattle is beyond dumb if they let him go and think they're going to land an elite guy in the draft.
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  • austinslater25 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    semiahmoo wrote:
    Do we pay him the big $$$$ and try and build around him or let him go and gamble on lower cost QB and build even more around that guy? .


    That is the 30 million dollar question.

    As of right now, I'd be OK with franchising Russell for a year and trying our best to find the next great young QB in the draft.

    Bottom line for me, I wouldn't be comfortable trading or letting Russell walk without his replacement on the roster and ready to roll. That's EXACTLY how you become one of the 25 have nots trading away all their draft picks swinging and missing on QB's year after year and going 5-11.

    In other words, you don't trade a top 5-10 QB without his replacement on the roster.


    The chances of finding a rookie QB who turns into a Wilson level talent is very rare. Ask Cleveland. Goff and Mahomes are playing well but they also have two of the brightest offensive minds in the league coaching them and play calling for them, we don't have that. Seattle is beyond dumb if they let him go and think they're going to land an elite guy in the draft.


    That's why I said find the QB first, then if you're confident that the new QB can replicate most of what Russell can do, you now have opened up that four year window of having an extra 20-30M to spend on other players.

    Russell isn't asked to do what Mahomes and Goff have to do, Russell is asked to distribute, hand the ball off and run around and make 3-4 explosive plays a game.........and he does it very well most of the time. That's not the same as these other top 10 QB's that have to carry their teams in order for them to win.

    I love Russell, I'd love for him to retire a Seahawk, but we're lying to ourselves if we think it won't be EXTREMELY difficult to get back to a SB paying Russell north of 30M a year for the next 4-5 years.
    If there is no Seahawk football in heaven, then we will never die.
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  • TwistedHusky wrote:Tical made the point that is getting overlooked in the entire 'elite' debate.

    It doesn't matter if Wilson is elite. It matters if he is the elite that can produce success when he has less to work with, consistently.

    Now, to Wilson's credit - he has produced without a lot of important components that most QBs need to have in order to produce. His OL was pretty poor and for a few years, his RB production was iffy. It was also an issue that his OC seemed to be holding him back. However, his issues with the slow starts have continued so that might be a function of Wilson himself (even though his old OC was still worth removing for other reasons).

    So there were lots of reasons to give him excuses. And for the most part, those excuses were valid.

    But he was also gifted with a defense that could hold the opposing team down so that he could fail multiple times, get multiple knocks at the door, and eventually kick it in. Being consistent was not an issue, he didn't need to covert at a high % because drivers that were punts or FGs would eventually turn into a TD drive. Meanwhile, the opposing team was being kept within one score.

    Now that defense is gone. And so is the luxury of knowing you can 3 and out multiple times while still coming back to win.

    He has to score to keep us in games. I believe in the average NFL game the average winning team in the NFL scores 28pts. That leaves 30 pts as objective if you want to win football games. But with the big contract the issue will become - does this team become the Saints, Packers or Steelers? Because once that contract is signed, our team will be thinner and Wilson is going to have to produce in spite of the excuses. He won't have the help he got in years past.

    The question is whether he is the kind of elite that can carry a team that is missing pieces or the kind that puts up good numbers but cannot overcome the holes his own large contract creates. It also bothers me that Carroll does not seem to want to put the offense on his shoulders. Is that because of Carroll's predilection to the run game or because he feels Wilson cannot be the guy to carry the full load consistently for 4 quarters? (Carroll seemed just fine with passing all over the place at USC - so it isn't some aversion to the pass.)

    Sidestepping away from the "Elite" conversation over to $$$$ eh. (That's a body.)

    Now here me out on this, don't jump the gun. Give me a chance to sell you on my logic & reasoning here.

    You're concerned with not being able to score enough points?

    So your answer to that is to dump Wilson, and go with a game manager, or some rookie....? To score more points? You would score less.

    The Seahawks under-performed these last few years, not because they payed Wilson. They under-performed because of CaBevell. They are back on the rise now because they got rid of that problem. That is a false correlation.

    Btw Pete pounded the rock at USC with Lendale White (Carson) & Reggie Bush (Penny) a two-headed attack. He is doing what he has always done.


    Pete Carroll with a game manager would be a disaster. He needs Wilson.

    CASE KEENUM 2015-2018

    G 37 | 21-16

    64.1%
    46 TD
    29 INT
    87.9 Passer Rating (Higher than Newton LOL)

    Rushing

    3.1 YPC
    251 Yards
    3 TD

    This is what $20M APY will buy you in 2020 if you let Wilson walk to save 7% on the salary cap. Mediocre journeyman game manager. I highly advise to re-think the idea of moving on from Wilson to save a little Salary Cap Space.

    -or-

    RUSSELL WILSON 2015-2018

    58 G | 34-23-1

    64.8%
    112 TD
    35 INT
    7.8 YPA
    100.6 Rating

    Rushing

    5.3 YPC
    1625 Yards
    5 TD

    3 Receptions for 3 Yards and a TD.

    PFF O-Line Rankings 2015-2018 [[ 30,32,27,19 ]]


    IN A BETTER WAY TO PUT IT

    Would you rather have Wilson and a $170M to build the rest of your team?

    -or-

    A Kase Keenum type game manager and a $185M to build the rest of your team?


    Carroll can make up the difference quite easily by drafting and developing some young guys on defense. He does it all the time, you can bank on that, that is his history. I have no faith especially in such an old-school offensive system they can hit the lottery again and find another QB. (Still drafting some QBs here and there hoping you get lucky, but you can't bank on it.)

    The smart play is to re-sign Wilson, and build a young and hungry defense.

    The Seahawks have their own advantage that a lot of these teams with franchise QBs don't have. A defensive genius Head Coach.

    The Seahawks can have the best of both worlds. A stud QB, and a top Defense via Pete Carroll.
    With Solari now on board to fix the O-Line. This is a logical plan that can win them another championship.
    Last edited by Fade on Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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