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Sometimes I wonder....

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Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:09 am
  • Sometimes I wonder if...

    All the clamoring for shoring up our run game was an admission by some fans that we will never have a passing game that will more often than not take care of business. "We must have A because we will never have B"

    An adept rushing game is only as good as the defense you put on the field because of the obvious likelihood that you will need to go get points rapidly at some point. "Our A doesn't matter that much because of C"

    Getting adept in our rushing game absolutely comes at the expense of other things because of dogma "We must focus on A in lieu of B because A is how you win games"

    We, the fans, have it wrong on how the game works. In common theory, having a good rushing game should open up the passing game, not only by trying to force more stacked boxes and clumping the defense together but also lending credence to the play action and provoking brain farts by the defense. What if we are wrong about the impact this has? Or what if Schotty is such a doofus he doesn't really know how to harness the advantages the run game should provide in theory? "We only get a portion of the benefits of A because Schotty is a doofus"

    I wonder these things because at this point in the season it just feels like we're stuck in a comfortable 1st gear getting our yards on the ground but when we need to shift into 2nd gear the transmission drops out of the chassis and it's just hapless and carried by hope.

    I could be more frustrated by it, I guess, but it is refreshing in one regard to see some of the stink of 2017 fall away. On the other hand, it is distressing to see the Hawks seemingly play how they want for a large portion of games and it obviously not be the holistic remedy we hoped for. I think it goes to show you that there are way more moving parts on a team and you simply can't 'shore up' a weak spot while maintaining all the other spinning plates as they were. I know it isn't easy to get the recipe right but if you had told me last season that we'd figure out how to effectively rush and we wouldn't be much better for it I would have been somewhat incredulous.

    Just some food for thought as I try to make some sense of why this jalopy won't go.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:15 am
  • mrt144 wrote:
    Just some food for thought as I try to make some sense of why this jalopy won't go.


    It's going, to the tune of 200 yards of rushing per game.

    Which is great, but when you're entire identity as an offense is geared around run the ball, open up play action.........and then your defense can't hold a lead and you fall behind?

    It's Houston we have a problem time. So that's where this style of offense is a problem, you need a great defense to do their part in order for it to reach it's maximum effectiveness.......which is grind the clock and wear your opponent down.

    Which is what Pete's again building towards. So the good news is once we add more playmakers on defense over the next couple of years, we should be there. Just not there now, which is why it's hard to watch.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:20 am
  • Well, there is one aspect that some people seem to miss sometimes. The premise of Pete's apparent basic philosophy is that the D must keep the opponents from out scoring us by more than one score, thus leaving us always with a chance at the end to make that final drive count.

    Over the last few games, we've had some brainfarts on offense that turned one score games into two score games. Russ's pick six was a good example. Then, of course, the strip sack that left the Lambs with a scoring chance in the red zone. In both cases, it left us with the need not to just drive down and take the lead or tie the game, but the need to do it twice. I'm no mathlete when it comes to probabilities, but it seems like it would be exponentially harder to get two late 4th Qtr drives than only one. Then, of course, we had the situation a few weeks ago against these same Lambs when we drove into FG-for-the-lead territory only to commit two penalties that took us out of range.

    Hey, admittedly, our talent level is a bit lower and younger than a few years ago. It happens to teams in the NFL. Right now, we're at a place where near perfect execution is necessary to beat good teams. We're not seeing that this year so far.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:20 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    mrt144 wrote:
    Just some food for thought as I try to make some sense of why this jalopy won't go.


    It's going, to the tune of 200 yards of rushing per game.

    Which is great, but when you're entire identity as an offense is geared around run the ball, open up play action.........and then your defense can't hold a lead and you fall behind?

    It's Houston we have a problem time. So that's where this style of offense is a problem, you need a great defense to do their part in order for it to reach it's maximum effectiveness.......which is grind the clock and wear your opponent down.

    Which is what Pete's again building towards. So the good news is once we add more playmakers on defense over the next couple of years, we should be there. Just not there now, which is why it's hard to watch.


    If we are not there now, there is no such thing as a must win unless we "must see" a quick playoff exit.

    Without a top 3 defense, Pete ball is destined for more mediocrity.
    Last edited by Seymour on Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:20 am
  • If we had a moderate running game last year under Bevell we make the playoffs imo. If we had SeaBass or someone else at kicker last year, same thing. But then we would have been more tempted to keep the old players
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:24 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    mrt144 wrote:
    Just some food for thought as I try to make some sense of why this jalopy won't go.


    It's going, to the tune of 200 yards of rushing per game.

    Which is great, but when you're entire identity as an offense is geared around run the ball, open up play action.........and then your defense can't hold a lead and you fall behind?

    It's Houston we have a problem time. So that's where this style of offense is a problem, you need a great defense to do their part in order for it to reach it's maximum effectiveness.......which is grind the clock and wear your opponent down.

    Which is what Pete's again building towards. So the good news is once we add more playmakers on defense over the next couple of years, we should be there. Just not there now, which is why it's hard to watch.


    If we are not there now, there is no such thing as a must win unless we "must see" a quick playoff exit.


    I can't be a defeatist like this.

    It's the NFL, if every game isn't a must win for you, your fans, your players and your coaching staff...........then I don't want you on my team or in my organization.

    So yes, I'd rather over achieve, make the playoffs and lose in the first round then pack it in and not treat this like a must win game in order to keep that momentum and positive culture in the locker room during this rebuild.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:26 am
  • A thats hard to fallow your tain of thought or B I was just reading a little too fast. Or my B lead to my A or C theres just to many negative vibs I've been reading as of late. But the good news is, I can spell CAB.LOL
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:30 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    mrt144 wrote:
    Just some food for thought as I try to make some sense of why this jalopy won't go.


    It's going, to the tune of 200 yards of rushing per game.

    Which is great, but when you're entire identity as an offense is geared around run the ball, open up play action.........and then your defense can't hold a lead and you fall behind?

    It's Houston we have a problem time. So that's where this style of offense is a problem, you need a great defense to do their part in order for it to reach it's maximum effectiveness.......which is grind the clock and wear your opponent down.

    Which is what Pete's again building towards. So the good news is once we add more playmakers on defense over the next couple of years, we should be there. Just not there now, which is why it's hard to watch.


    If we are not there now, there is no such thing as a must win unless we "must see" a quick playoff exit.


    I can't be a defeatist like this.

    It's the NFL, if every game isn't a must win for you, your fans, your players and your coaching staff...........then I don't want you on my team or in my organization.

    So yes, I'd rather over achieve, make the playoffs and lose in the first round then pack it in and not treat this like a must win game in order to keep that momentum and positive culture in the locker room during this rebuild.


    I would rather make the playoffs too, and I'm certainly not packing it in. I just define "must" different than some others here. If you fail to win a "must win" then that implies the mission is over after the loss. That is what I disagree with, as there is much that still can be accomplished toward becoming a championship team once again.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:36 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    mrt144 wrote:
    Just some food for thought as I try to make some sense of why this jalopy won't go.


    It's going, to the tune of 200 yards of rushing per game.

    Which is great, but when you're entire identity as an offense is geared around run the ball, open up play action.........and then your defense can't hold a lead and you fall behind?

    It's Houston we have a problem time. So that's where this style of offense is a problem, you need a great defense to do their part in order for it to reach it's maximum effectiveness.......which is grind the clock and wear your opponent down.

    Which is what Pete's again building towards. So the good news is once we add more playmakers on defense over the next couple of years, we should be there. Just not there now, which is why it's hard to watch.


    If we are not there now, there is no such thing as a must win unless we "must see" a quick playoff exit.


    I can't be a defeatist like this.

    It's the NFL, if every game isn't a must win for you, your fans, your players and your coaching staff...........then I don't want you on my team or in my organization.

    So yes, I'd rather over achieve, make the playoffs and lose in the first round then pack it in and not treat this like a must win game in order to keep that momentum and positive culture in the locker room during this rebuild.


    Here, here. You play to win the game. The game is too rough to not cheer every week for your guys to win. And losing begets losing. Create a winning culture at all times even in down years.

    We surely need a better passing attack. But I’m happy the run game is firing on all cylinders. One step at a time. We also need a defense that can figure out these college offenses. They are ripping our defense for 8 yds at a time. That’s gotta stop. Likely need another stud DT and DE for that to happen. And some more seasoning to the defense. Or a more attacking scheme like Arizona.

    Just glad we can still have an entertaining season even if we don’t make the playoffs, the guys are putting on a show.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:41 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    mrt144 wrote:
    Just some food for thought as I try to make some sense of why this jalopy won't go.


    It's going, to the tune of 200 yards of rushing per game.

    Which is great, but when you're entire identity as an offense is geared around run the ball, open up play action.........and then your defense can't hold a lead and you fall behind?

    It's Houston we have a problem time. So that's where this style of offense is a problem, you need a great defense to do their part in order for it to reach it's maximum effectiveness.......which is grind the clock and wear your opponent down.

    Which is what Pete's again building towards. So the good news is once we add more playmakers on defense over the next couple of years, we should be there. Just not there now, which is why it's hard to watch.


    If we are not there now, there is no such thing as a must win unless we "must see" a quick playoff exit.


    I can't be a defeatist like this.

    It's the NFL, if every game isn't a must win for you, your fans, your players and your coaching staff...........then I don't want you on my team or in my organization.

    So yes, I'd rather over achieve, make the playoffs and lose in the first round then pack it in and not treat this like a must win game in order to keep that momentum and positive culture in the locker room during this rebuild.


    I am generally on the side of 'it doesn't matter if you win or lose, it's how well you play the game' when a team is in transition and not on the precipice of a deep playoff run. You need to show marginal improvement from your last game, last season, whatever, and build off of that and just keep sharpening yourself and in doing so, the wins will come. But my optimism and faith in that process is a bit shaken by how defined that path is. Like with the Cover 3 Zones that are just eaten alive - are we really going to keep trying to force our DBs and LBs into it until it clicks even if it could never do so?

    Why do other teams seem at ease going into a Tampa 2 or Cover 2 against us which seemingly stymies us hard? And by that token, why would an opposing team ever run a Cover 0 against us ever again? It just seems like sometimes coaches in football do what they do out of habit, not because there is some tactical or strategic imperative at stake.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:42 am
  • Mad Dog wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    It's going, to the tune of 200 yards of rushing per game.

    Which is great, but when you're entire identity as an offense is geared around run the ball, open up play action.........and then your defense can't hold a lead and you fall behind?

    It's Houston we have a problem time. So that's where this style of offense is a problem, you need a great defense to do their part in order for it to reach it's maximum effectiveness.......which is grind the clock and wear your opponent down.

    Which is what Pete's again building towards. So the good news is once we add more playmakers on defense over the next couple of years, we should be there. Just not there now, which is why it's hard to watch.


    If we are not there now, there is no such thing as a must win unless we "must see" a quick playoff exit.


    I can't be a defeatist like this.

    It's the NFL, if every game isn't a must win for you, your fans, your players and your coaching staff...........then I don't want you on my team or in my organization.

    So yes, I'd rather over achieve, make the playoffs and lose in the first round then pack it in and not treat this like a must win game in order to keep that momentum and positive culture in the locker room during this rebuild.


    Here, here. You play to win the game. The game is too rough to not cheer every week for your guys to win. And losing begets losing. Create a winning culture at all times even in down years.

    We surely need a better passing attack. But I’m happy the run game is firing on all cylinders. One step at a time. We also need a defense that can figure out these college offenses. They are ripping our defense for 8 yds at a time. That’s gotta stop. Likely need another stud DT and DE for that to happen. And some more seasoning to the defense. Or a more attacking scheme like Arizona.

    Just glad we can still have an entertaining season even if we don’t make the playoffs, the guys are putting on a show.


    A million times yes on the last statement. It hasn't always been the best football and we are 1-5 in one score games but...this is definitely a step up from last season in terms of entertainment.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:43 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    I would rather make the playoffs too, and I'm certainly not packing it in. I just define "must" different than some others here. If you fail to win a "must win" then that implies the mission is over after the loss. That is what I disagree with, as there is much that still can be accomplished toward becoming a championship team once again.


    If your mission is to make the playoffs, which it should be.........then the mission is over after a loss on Thursday. Unless you think the Hawks can win out with good to great teams like the Chiefs, Panthers and Viking still on the schedule.

    If that's not the textbook definition of "must win," then I don't know what is.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:53 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    I would rather make the playoffs too, and I'm certainly not packing it in. I just define "must" different than some others here. If you fail to win a "must win" then that implies the mission is over after the loss. That is what I disagree with, as there is much that still can be accomplished toward becoming a championship team once again.


    If your mission is to make the playoffs, which it should be.........then the mission is over after a loss on Thursday. Unless you think the Hawks can win out with good to great teams like the Chiefs, Panthers and Viking still on the schedule.

    If that's not the textbook definition of "must win," then I don't know what is.


    My mission is to win another Super Bowl....period. The playoffs are just an obvious required step to doing that. I would hope that making the playoffs and exiting early should always be considered "mission not accomplished" for the team as well.

    BTW losing Thursday does not knock us out of the playoffs anymore than losing week 1 or 2 did.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:03 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    I would rather make the playoffs too, and I'm certainly not packing it in. I just define "must" different than some others here. If you fail to win a "must win" then that implies the mission is over after the loss. That is what I disagree with, as there is much that still can be accomplished toward becoming a championship team once again.


    If your mission is to make the playoffs, which it should be.........then the mission is over after a loss on Thursday. Unless you think the Hawks can win out with good to great teams like the Chiefs, Panthers and Viking still on the schedule.

    If that's not the textbook definition of "must win," then I don't know what is.


    My mission is to win another Super Bowl....period. The playoffs are just an obvious required step to doing that. I would hope that making the playoffs and exiting early should always be considered "mission not accomplished" for the team as well.

    BTW losing Thursday does not knock us out of the playoffs anymore than losing week 1 or 2 did.


    Like I said, it does knock us out unless you think we can run the table.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:26 pm
  • The problem isn't the offense. The offense is scoring in bunches. The problem is the recent slow starts on defense. If we can make the same adjustments midway through the half as we do at the half, it will change the results. I LOVE what I'm seeing from the offense, and the second half defense. Let's dial in the first half a bit better on defense and we are where we need to be.

    Sure I'd LOVE to see a big speed rusher on the line, but we don't have that person.

    Better in game defensive adjustments during the first half are what we need. period.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:31 pm
  • Pete and Company are trying to prove that they don't need a $30million QB to compete. If anything, it shows that is they get a mobile QB that throws 20 passes a game with decent accuracy they are good and that the $30mil could be spent on the defense.....again.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:42 pm
  • Sox-n-Hawks wrote:The problem isn't the offense. The offense is scoring in bunches. The problem is the recent slow starts on defense. If we can make the same adjustments midway through the half as we do at the half, it will change the results. I LOVE what I'm seeing from the offense, and the second half defense. Let's dial in the first half a bit better on defense and we are where we need to be.

    Sure I'd LOVE to see a big speed rusher on the line, but we don't have that person.

    Better in game defensive adjustments during the first half are what we need. period.


    Well that's what I wonder about - where are the marginal returns of a rushing game if your defense isn't locking it down. We saw how dominant the totality of our game was against the scrub Raiders and Lions and I love that it looks so dominant there but...

    We gotta have answers somewhere for the bigguns that have good offenses. Methodical 4 minute drives down by two scores aren't awful and we have had opportunities to cinch it on our last offensive drives but nothing in the preceding games shows me that the team is adept in playing time constrained specific goal oriented football. If past is prologue the way they run their 2 minute drills towards the end of the first half leaves a ton to be desired and history rhymes in the 4th quarter.

    So in a roundabout way I agree - our defense isn't setting the table for our offense to do their bread and butter and when the offense is tasked with moving away from their bread and butter they just don't look like they have 'it' which is a rude departure from what we've been accustomed to.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:46 pm
  • 2_0_6 wrote:Pete and Company are trying to prove that they don't need a $30million QB to compete. If anything, it shows that is they get a mobile QB that throws 20 passes a game with decent accuracy they are good and that the $30mil could be spent on the defense.....again.


    For the most part though, a lot of the money spent on defense was resigning obvious studs and arguably best at their position across the board. The shift in cap allocation between 2013 and 2016 was drastic. One of the lessons to take away from the whole adventure might be that you draft the defense you want and turn that over a bit more briskly than looking at the offense to do the same. Possibly.

    I think it makes some sort of sense to go that way but 2020 is gonna be bananas with the CBA changes and RW's contract coming up if he isn't extended ahead of the CBA.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:47 pm
  • The Rams are using the Hawks template currently, and I wouldn't put it past the Hawks to revert back to that.
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Re: Sometimes I wonder....
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:49 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    I would rather make the playoffs too, and I'm certainly not packing it in. I just define "must" different than some others here. If you fail to win a "must win" then that implies the mission is over after the loss. That is what I disagree with, as there is much that still can be accomplished toward becoming a championship team once again.


    If your mission is to make the playoffs, which it should be.........then the mission is over after a loss on Thursday. Unless you think the Hawks can win out with good to great teams like the Chiefs, Panthers and Viking still on the schedule.

    If that's not the textbook definition of "must win," then I don't know what is.


    My mission is to win another Super Bowl....period. The playoffs are just an obvious required step to doing that. I would hope that making the playoffs and exiting early should always be considered "mission not accomplished" for the team as well.

    BTW losing Thursday does not knock us out of the playoffs anymore than losing week 1 or 2 did.

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