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Time to pay Frank

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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:02 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Hawksfan78 wrote:From BR - ranked 18 among DEs. As a pure football talent, there are few players with as bright of an on-field future as Seahawks defensive end Frank Clark. The 24-year-old 2015 second-round draft pick already has 22 sacks in his NFL career. His short-area quickness allows him to beat tackles to the outside or set up a swift inside counter. Over the last two seasons, only eight edge defenders have recorded nine or more sacks in both 2016 and 2017: Mario Addison, Joey Bosa, Chandler Jones, Ryan Kerrigan, Khalil Mack, Von Miller, Cameron Wake and Clark. Should Cliff Avril not return to football, making Clark a 16-game starter for the first time in his career, expect him to fit right in.

    Maybe it’s just my eyes, but he’s not worth what he is going to be asking. I like him, just not for QB money


    So you just broke copy and pasted Bleacher Report's breakdown of Clark putting him in the same category as the best pass rushing DE's in the league, and then tell us you don't see it?

    We will pay Clark...........he's worth it, and we don't have a choice.


    He is worth what exactly? $20M per year?

    Nope, not IMO. Hell yes we need Frank, but I draw the line around $15M or so.

    You can't just say "he's worth it" without throwing a number out there.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:11 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Hawksfan78 wrote:From BR - ranked 18 among DEs. As a pure football talent, there are few players with as bright of an on-field future as Seahawks defensive end Frank Clark. The 24-year-old 2015 second-round draft pick already has 22 sacks in his NFL career. His short-area quickness allows him to beat tackles to the outside or set up a swift inside counter. Over the last two seasons, only eight edge defenders have recorded nine or more sacks in both 2016 and 2017: Mario Addison, Joey Bosa, Chandler Jones, Ryan Kerrigan, Khalil Mack, Von Miller, Cameron Wake and Clark. Should Cliff Avril not return to football, making Clark a 16-game starter for the first time in his career, expect him to fit right in.

    Maybe it’s just my eyes, but he’s not worth what he is going to be asking. I like him, just not for QB money


    So you just broke copy and pasted Bleacher Report's breakdown of Clark putting him in the same category as the best pass rushing DE's in the league, and then tell us you don't see it?

    We will pay Clark...........he's worth it, and we don't have a choice.


    He is worth what exactly? $20M per year?

    Nope, not IMO. Hell yes we need Frank, but I draw the line around $15M or so.

    You can't just say "he's worth it" without throwing a number out there.


    You can't arbitrarily say he's only worth 15M, when the market is now 18-20M. That's not how it works in the NFL.

    If you draw a line in the sand and demand he take less than the current market, then you lose him because someone else will pay him more.

    We messed up, now the market's higher and we'll pay it. Again, because the alternative is let him walk or franchise, which is 19M fully guaranteed.

    So no, we don't have a choice. We'd be insane to let a top 5-6 player in the now the 2nd most important position on the field walk over 3-4M a year, with a ton of cap space next year.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:23 am
  • Seymour can draw whatever lines he wants. But they're irrelevant to what actually happens with Frank Clark.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:28 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Hawksfan78 wrote:From BR - ranked 18 among DEs. As a pure football talent, there are few players with as bright of an on-field future as Seahawks defensive end Frank Clark. The 24-year-old 2015 second-round draft pick already has 22 sacks in his NFL career. His short-area quickness allows him to beat tackles to the outside or set up a swift inside counter. Over the last two seasons, only eight edge defenders have recorded nine or more sacks in both 2016 and 2017: Mario Addison, Joey Bosa, Chandler Jones, Ryan Kerrigan, Khalil Mack, Von Miller, Cameron Wake and Clark. Should Cliff Avril not return to football, making Clark a 16-game starter for the first time in his career, expect him to fit right in.

    Maybe it’s just my eyes, but he’s not worth what he is going to be asking. I like him, just not for QB money


    So you just broke copy and pasted Bleacher Report's breakdown of Clark putting him in the same category as the best pass rushing DE's in the league, and then tell us you don't see it?

    We will pay Clark...........he's worth it, and we don't have a choice.


    He is worth what exactly? $20M per year?

    Nope, not IMO. Hell yes we need Frank, but I draw the line around $15M or so.

    You can't just say "he's worth it" without throwing a number out there.


    You can't arbitrarily say he's only worth 15M, when the market is now 18-20M. That's not how it works in the NFL.

    If you draw a line in the sand and demand he take less than the current market, then you lose him because someone else will pay him more.

    We messed up, now the market's higher and we'll pay it. Again, because the alternative is let him walk or franchise, which is 19M fully guaranteed.

    So no, we don't have a choice. We'd be insane to let a top 5-6 player in the now the 2nd most important position on the field walk over 3-4M a year, with a ton of cap space next year.


    I sure can and did.

    Clark is ranked around a #15 DE which pays around $10M per year and I'm +5M over that! Bennett who we just got rid of makes that, and still is producing at a high level and it can be argued is more versatile.....yet we paid to dump him.

    So I absolutely can. And no way in hell is he top 5....not feasting on Cable's low hanging fruit.

    https://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-end/
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:43 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    I sure can and did.

    Clark is ranked around a #15 DE which pays around $10M per year and I'm +5M over that! Bennett who we just got rid of makes that, and still is producing at a high level and it can be argued is more versatile.....yet we paid to dump him.

    So I absolutely can. And no way in hell is he top 5....not feasting on Cable's low hanging fruit.

    https://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-end/


    You can pick and choose whatever arbitrary lines in the sand you want to justify your salary range, but we WILL sign Clark for far more than 10-15M per year.

    That's just how it works.....Ansah and Lawrence set the market a couple years ago at 17M, now Mack set the market at 20M+, so that's where we're at for Frank.

    He probably won't make 23M like Mack, but I betcha it'll be in the 18-20M range.........but don't worry it'll be a nice long contract, probably 4-5 years, so we'll spread it out nicely. That's the luxury of a 2nd contract with a younger player, and not a 3rd contract that burned us with so much guaranteed money at the end.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:46 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Hawksfan78 wrote:From BR - ranked 18 among DEs. As a pure football talent, there are few players with as bright of an on-field future as Seahawks defensive end Frank Clark. The 24-year-old 2015 second-round draft pick already has 22 sacks in his NFL career. His short-area quickness allows him to beat tackles to the outside or set up a swift inside counter. Over the last two seasons, only eight edge defenders have recorded nine or more sacks in both 2016 and 2017: Mario Addison, Joey Bosa, Chandler Jones, Ryan Kerrigan, Khalil Mack, Von Miller, Cameron Wake and Clark. Should Cliff Avril not return to football, making Clark a 16-game starter for the first time in his career, expect him to fit right in.

    Maybe it’s just my eyes, but he’s not worth what he is going to be asking. I like him, just not for QB money


    So you just broke copy and pasted Bleacher Report's breakdown of Clark putting him in the same category as the best pass rushing DE's in the league, and then tell us you don't see it?

    We will pay Clark...........he's worth it, and we don't have a choice.


    He is worth what exactly? $20M per year?

    Nope, not IMO. Hell yes we need Frank, but I draw the line around $15M or so.

    You can't just say "he's worth it" without throwing a number out there.


    You can't arbitrarily say he's only worth 15M, when the market is now 18-20M. That's not how it works in the NFL.

    If you draw a line in the sand and demand he take less than the current market, then you lose him because someone else will pay him more.

    We messed up, now the market's higher and we'll pay it. Again, because the alternative is let him walk or franchise, which is 19M fully guaranteed.

    So no, we don't have a choice. We'd be insane to let a top 5-6 player in the now the 2nd most important position on the field walk over 3-4M a year, with a ton of cap space next year.


    I am more or less resigned to the fact that we will sign him. His age is an asset but I don't think a reasonable person would take him straight up over Mack, Watt, Bosa, Donald, Heyward and 5 or 6 others who in my estimation are far more disruptive play after play. And before you compare stats you have to look how many times the top guys draw double teams and open it up for the rest of the DLine. Earlier you referenced Kalil Macks stat line for a recent game. One game is a single data point. KMack and Aaron Donald water the eyes play after play when you watch them. Frank Clark does not. JS is paid to make the decision and collect the accolades or grief however it turns out.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:49 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    I sure can and did.

    Clark is ranked around a #15 DE which pays around $10M per year and I'm +5M over that! Bennett who we just got rid of makes that, and still is producing at a high level and it can be argued is more versatile.....yet we paid to dump him.

    So I absolutely can. And no way in hell is he top 5....not feasting on Cable's low hanging fruit.

    https://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-end/


    You can pick and choose whatever arbitrary lines in the sand you want to justify your salary range, but we WILL sign Clark for far more than 10-15M per year.

    That's just how it works.....Ansah and Lawrence set the market a couple years ago at 17M, now Mack set the market at 20M+, so that's where we're at for Frank.

    He probably won't make 23M like Mack, but I betcha it'll be in the 18-20M range.........but don't worry it'll be a nice long contract, probably 4-5 years, so we'll spread it out nicely. That's the luxury of a 2nd contract with a younger player, and not a 3rd contract that burned us with so much guaranteed money at the end.


    That is where YOU are at, not "we".

    Comparing Frank to Mack is laughable.....and flat out ridiculous! Sorry, nobody makes that comparison besides you. :177692:

    If that is your "proof" then I'm done because that is way way way off base.

    PFF puts him at #17, others not even top 20. :roll:

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/frank-clark/9496
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:56 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    I sure can and did.

    Clark is ranked around a #15 DE which pays around $10M per year and I'm +5M over that! Bennett who we just got rid of makes that, and still is producing at a high level and it can be argued is more versatile.....yet we paid to dump him.

    So I absolutely can. And no way in hell is he top 5....not feasting on Cable's low hanging fruit.

    https://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-end/


    You can pick and choose whatever arbitrary lines in the sand you want to justify your salary range, but we WILL sign Clark for far more than 10-15M per year.

    That's just how it works.....Ansah and Lawrence set the market a couple years ago at 17M, now Mack set the market at 20M+, so that's where we're at for Frank.

    He probably won't make 23M like Mack, but I betcha it'll be in the 18-20M range.........but don't worry it'll be a nice long contract, probably 4-5 years, so we'll spread it out nicely. That's the luxury of a 2nd contract with a younger player, and not a 3rd contract that burned us with so much guaranteed money at the end.


    That is where YOU are at, not "we".

    Comparing Frank to Mack is laughable.....and flat out ridiculous! Sorry, nobody makes that comparison besides you. :177692:

    If that is your "proof" then I'm done because that is way way way off base.


    We are done, cause you obviously don't understand how the NFL market works Seymour. Is Cousins, Garappolo or Smith worth 28M a year? Cause that's what they're making.

    That's just how it is, once a player sets the market, that's where it starts for the next guy, and Clark is the next guy.

    It's our fault, we could have gotten him at 15M if we would have gotten him signed during camp after Daniel Hunter signed his new deal. But we didn't, now we're gonna pay the price.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:00 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    I sure can and did.

    Clark is ranked around a #15 DE which pays around $10M per year and I'm +5M over that! Bennett who we just got rid of makes that, and still is producing at a high level and it can be argued is more versatile.....yet we paid to dump him.

    So I absolutely can. And no way in hell is he top 5....not feasting on Cable's low hanging fruit.

    https://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-end/


    You can pick and choose whatever arbitrary lines in the sand you want to justify your salary range, but we WILL sign Clark for far more than 10-15M per year.

    That's just how it works.....Ansah and Lawrence set the market a couple years ago at 17M, now Mack set the market at 20M+, so that's where we're at for Frank.

    He probably won't make 23M like Mack, but I betcha it'll be in the 18-20M range.........but don't worry it'll be a nice long contract, probably 4-5 years, so we'll spread it out nicely. That's the luxury of a 2nd contract with a younger player, and not a 3rd contract that burned us with so much guaranteed money at the end.


    That is where YOU are at, not "we".

    Comparing Frank to Mack is laughable.....and flat out ridiculous! Sorry, nobody makes that comparison besides you. :177692:

    If that is your "proof" then I'm done because that is way way way off base.


    We are done, cause you obviously don't understand how the NFL market works Seymour. Is Cousins, Garappolo or Smith worth 28M a year? Cause that's what they're making.

    That's just how it is, once a player sets the market, that's where it starts for the next guy, and Clark is the next guy.

    It's our fault, we could have gotten him at 15M if we would have gotten him signed during camp after Daniel Hunter signed his new deal. But we didn't, now we're gonna pay the price.


    That is how the LOSING NFL works. Not how NE works though is it? If you want to be a loser, then learn nothing and spend $20M on Clark.

    Smith makes #23.5M per year not $28M...better bone up some more.

    I understand more than you. I understand that a #15 rated DE is not in the same conversation as a generational type top DE, that is for sure!!
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:38 am
  • And....if you really want to use sacks as the argument. There has been 52 players in the NFL at DE that have had more sacks than Frank Clark in their 1st 3 years. The 2nd number is number of sacks in 1st 3 years.

    Even former Seahawk Jeff Bryant had more!
    You want to use Bennett / Avril as the reason? Frank wasn't better than either according to Pete and his actions. :177692:

    Again, I say keep Frank, but learn something from what we just went through and do not overpay @ $20M :141847_bnono:

    Reggie White 1-4 52 198
    Dwight Freeney 1-11 40 125
    Richard Dent 8-203 37.5 137.5
    J.J. Watt 1-11 36.5 Active
    Anthony Smith 1-11 36 57.5
    Jevon Kearse 1-16 36 74
    Robert Quinn 1-14 34.5 Active
    Bruce Smith 1-1 33.5 200
    Terrell Suggs 1-10 30.5 Active
    Mario Williams 1-1 30.5 97.5
    Charles Haley 4-96 30 100.5
    Ezekiel Ansah 1-5 30 Active
    Julius Peppers 1-2 30 Active
    Khalil Mack 1-5 30 Active
    Tony Bennett 1-18 29.5 64.5
    Leslie O'Neal 1-8 29 132.5
    Brian Orakpo 1-13 28.5 Active
    Chris Mims 1-23 28 42
    Garin Veris 2-48 28 36
    Cameron Wake 28 Active
    Greg Townsend 4-110 27.5 109.5
    Jason Pierre-Paul 1-15 27.5 Active
    John Abraham 1-13 27.5 133.5
    Charles Grant 1-25 27.5 47
    Jared Allen 4-126 27.5 136
    Simeon Rice 1-3 27.5 122
    Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila 5-149 27 74.5
    Reggie Camp 3-68 27 35
    Will Smith 1-18 26.5 67.5
    Aaron Schobel 2-46 26.5 78
    Elvis Dumervil 4-126 26 Active
    Kevin Williams 1-9 26 63
    Robert Mathis 5-138 25.5 123
    Danielle Hunter 3-88 25.5 Active
    Jim Jeffcoat 1-23 25.5 102.5
    Trent Cole 5-146 25.5 90.5
    Jeff Bryant 1-6 25.5 63
    Andre Carter 1-7 25.5 80.5
    Burt Grossman 1-8 25.5 43.5
    Sean Jones 2-51 25 113
    Adewale Ogunleye 25 67
    Lee Williams 1-6 25 82.5
    Willie McGinest 1-4 25 86
    Darren Howard 2-33 25 67
    Charles Mann 3-84 24.5 83
    Vic Beasley 1-8 24.5 Active
    Chandler Jones 1-21 23.5 Active
    Joey Bosa 1-3 23 Active
    Darrell Russell 1-2 23 28.5
    Kevin Carter 1-6 23 104.5
    Osi Umenyiora 2-56 22.5 85
    Leonard Marshall 2-37 22.5 83.5
    Frank Clark 2-63 22 Active
    John Randle 22 137.5
    Hugh Douglas 1-16 22 80
    Jumpy Geathers 2-42 21.5 62
    Olivier Vernon 3-72 21.5 Active
    Keith Hamilton 4-99 21.5 63
    Jeff Cross 9-239 21.5 59.5
    Cameron Jordan 1-24 21.5 Active
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:45 am
  • I didn't say pay him 20M, I said that's where the market is now, so it's going to be much closer to 20M than the 15M you think he's worth.

    If I had to guess, Frank's average annual salary will be in the 18M range.

    You keep wanting to get into what he's "worth." Worth is completely and utterly meaningless when it comes to football salaries, it's all about the market. That's the only leverage the players have, so they use it when they can.......and believe me, Frank and his agent are using it as we speak.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:51 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:I didn't say pay him 20M, I said that's where the market is now, so it's going to be much closer to 20M than the 15M you think he's worth.

    If I had to guess, Frank's average annual salary will be in the 18M range.

    You keep wanting to get into what he's "worth." Worth is completely and utterly meaningless when it comes to football salaries, it's all about the market. That's the only leverage the players have, so they use it when they can.......and believe me, Frank and his agent are using it as we speak.


    I asked you that in my first response, yet you passed on an answer. :roll:

    So now $18M is "MUCH closer" to $20M than $15M?? More like barely (by 500K)

    I said around $15M....so ya I would go 16M max but no more. Certainly not 20 was my main point. He is not a top 5 DE, and he's not a franchise QB, that I know.

    Worth IS the market, I agree.

    Where we disagree is how great Frank is. You compare to Mack and say that is where "WE" are. Clearly that puts him in the same conversation in your mind, double back or not. I showed evidence of where he stands to others at his position, you didn't.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:01 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    Where we disagree is how great Frank is. You compare to Mack and say that is where "WE" are. Clearly that puts him in the same conversation in your mind, double back or not. I showed evidence of where he stands to others at his position, you didn't.


    I compared the market to Mack, not Frank's talent.

    Mack's obviously the standard, along with Miller and Donald IMO. Then I do think Clark is in the next tier of DE's, mainly because of his current production + upside of being on the come.

    That does make a difference for team's like us willing to give a player like Clark maybe more than his stats prove out, which is what you're mired in. His stats. Because as opposed to guys like Bennett and Avril last time around where you're just hoping they don't fall off.................with Clark you're thinking he's only going to get better and justify paying him a little more than he's worth right now.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:10 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Where we disagree is how great Frank is. You compare to Mack and say that is where "WE" are. Clearly that puts him in the same conversation in your mind, double back or not. I showed evidence of where he stands to others at his position, you didn't.


    I compared the market to Mack, not Frank's talent.

    Mack's obviously the standard, along with Miller and Donald IMO. Then I do think Clark is in the next tier of DE's, mainly because of his current production + upside of being on the come.

    That does make a difference for team's like us willing to give a player like Clark maybe more than his stats prove out, which is what you're mired in. His stats. Because as opposed to guys like Bennett and Avril last time around where you're just hoping they don't fall off.................with Clark you're thinking he's only going to get better and justify paying him a little more than he's worth right now.


    Again, that is you thinking that, not me. Name another recent Seahawk that has gotten noticeably better after his 2nd contract. That is a very slippery slope to climb right there, and I'd be bothered if our FO thinks and gives contracts with that mindset personally.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:52 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Where we disagree is how great Frank is. You compare to Mack and say that is where "WE" are. Clearly that puts him in the same conversation in your mind, double back or not. I showed evidence of where he stands to others at his position, you didn't.


    I compared the market to Mack, not Frank's talent.

    Mack's obviously the standard, along with Miller and Donald IMO. Then I do think Clark is in the next tier of DE's, mainly because of his current production + upside of being on the come.

    That does make a difference for team's like us willing to give a player like Clark maybe more than his stats prove out, which is what you're mired in. His stats. Because as opposed to guys like Bennett and Avril last time around where you're just hoping they don't fall off.................with Clark you're thinking he's only going to get better and justify paying him a little more than he's worth right now.


    Again, that is you thinking that, not me. Name another recent Seahawk that has gotten noticeably better after his 2nd contract. That is a very slippery slope to climb right there, and I'd be bothered if our FO thinks and gives contracts with that mindset personally.



    Russell
    Marshawn
    Bennett
    Avril
    Bobby
    Doug
    KJ
    Lockett's also on pace for a career year after signing his new deal

    It's not my thinking, it's how every GM thinks. Good players who are on the upswing going into their 2nd contracts usually perform well, so you pay them. 3rd contracts? That's where hopefully we learned our lesson.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:14 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Where we disagree is how great Frank is. You compare to Mack and say that is where "WE" are. Clearly that puts him in the same conversation in your mind, double back or not. I showed evidence of where he stands to others at his position, you didn't.


    I compared the market to Mack, not Frank's talent.

    Mack's obviously the standard, along with Miller and Donald IMO. Then I do think Clark is in the next tier of DE's, mainly because of his current production + upside of being on the come.

    That does make a difference for team's like us willing to give a player like Clark maybe more than his stats prove out, which is what you're mired in. His stats. Because as opposed to guys like Bennett and Avril last time around where you're just hoping they don't fall off.................with Clark you're thinking he's only going to get better and justify paying him a little more than he's worth right now.


    Again, that is you thinking that, not me. Name another recent Seahawk that has gotten noticeably better after his 2nd contract. That is a very slippery slope to climb right there, and I'd be bothered if our FO thinks and gives contracts with that mindset personally.



    Russell
    Marshawn
    Bennett
    Avril
    Bobby
    Doug
    KJ
    Lockett's also on pace for a career year after signing his new deal

    It's not my thinking, it's how every GM thinks. Good players who are on the upswing going into their 2nd contracts usually perform well, so you pay them. 3rd contracts? That's where hopefully we learned our lesson.


    LMAO...
    Dude, you have said more than once you believe Wilson has regressed, and just recently called him a game manager "type". He is on his 2nd contract still!! :3-1:

    OK...nobody can prove that either way, but I'd say possibly Bennett. Point being, you don't pay someone a wage "you hope they grow into". Unless you prefer last place that is.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:07 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    I compared the market to Mack, not Frank's talent.

    Mack's obviously the standard, along with Miller and Donald IMO. Then I do think Clark is in the next tier of DE's, mainly because of his current production + upside of being on the come.

    That does make a difference for team's like us willing to give a player like Clark maybe more than his stats prove out, which is what you're mired in. His stats. Because as opposed to guys like Bennett and Avril last time around where you're just hoping they don't fall off.................with Clark you're thinking he's only going to get better and justify paying him a little more than he's worth right now.


    Again, that is you thinking that, not me. Name another recent Seahawk that has gotten noticeably better after his 2nd contract. That is a very slippery slope to climb right there, and I'd be bothered if our FO thinks and gives contracts with that mindset personally.



    Russell
    Marshawn
    Bennett
    Avril
    Bobby
    Doug
    KJ
    Lockett's also on pace for a career year after signing his new deal

    It's not my thinking, it's how every GM thinks. Good players who are on the upswing going into their 2nd contracts usually perform well, so you pay them. 3rd contracts? That's where hopefully we learned our lesson.


    LMAO...
    Dude, you have said more than once you believe Wilson has regressed, and just recently called him a game manager "type". He is on his 2nd contract still!! :3-1:

    OK...nobody can prove that either way, but I'd say possibly Bennett. Point being, you don't pay someone a wage "you hope they grow into". Unless you prefer last place that is.


    You asked for examples, and I gave you a bunch. All these guys have better stats and numbers in their 2nd contracts than their first.

    My opinions or statements you take out of context to take jabs at me because you don't have anything else to add to your flimsy points is irrelevant.

    Clark's gonna get paid, it's gonna be way more than 15M, and that's that. Whether you like it or approve of it or not.


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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:14 pm
  • Frank's next APY will be 1.2 million per sack he gets this year.

    Sacks and strip sacks are essentially the only stats that will factor into his paycheck. Get it done really soon, or he's going to just wait and test the waters.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:15 pm
  • The End is in full loop mode. It never will end and you know it :twisted:

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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:23 pm
  • I'm thinking how in hell can we afford 20 million plus for Clark and 35 million plus to RW?
    I know it doesn't have to be in same year but the cap hit in the year with both at those
    figures :34853_doh: ..I just do not believe there isn't a better way to handle this without
    killing the team overall..
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:42 am
  • Frank is coming off one of his best games as a pro. You have until the beginning of free agency next year to sign him. This would probably be the worst time to try and sign him.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:53 pm
  • I dont wanna think about this dline without Clark on it. Would be a train wreck
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:39 pm
  • edogg23 wrote:Frank is coming off one of his best games as a pro. You have until the beginning of free agency next year to sign him. This would probably be the worst time to try and sign him.


    Wouldn't it be a much worse time when other teams are offering money and there is actually competition for his services?
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:58 pm
  • Seahawks' Frank Clark would be OK with franchise tag, agent says

    With a growing résumé and an insurance policy in his back pocket, Seattle Seahawks defensive end Frank Clark is willing to wait as he tries to secure a deal that makes him one of the NFL's highest-paid pass-rushers -- even if it means playing on the franchise tag first.

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Re: Time to pay Frank
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:14 pm
  • $17 million APY seems like a lot for Clark, who has a solid sack total by doesn’t tend to generate a lot of pressures (he’s been outside the Top 10 among DEs in pressures).

    What is the franchise tag projected to be next year for a DE? This year it was over $17 million.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:23 am
  • I'd pay him whatever it takes.

    The team really doesn't have a choice.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:46 am
  • He is in no hurry ...he is going to want " MACK MONEY " the Hawks will franchise him....IMO
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:40 am
  • Franchise tag, then move on. Draft and develop defense. No one defensive player is worth 20M+ in today’s game. Not enough consistent impact on winning overall.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:46 am
  • Coug_Hawk08 wrote:Franchise tag, then move on. Draft and develop defense. No one defensive player is worth 20M+ in today’s game. Not enough consistent impact on winning overall.


    They absolutely are worth the money, it's why they make so much now.

    It's one of the main reasons why we won our SB, it's THE main reason the Broncos won their SB, and it won the Eagles their SB last year with the strip sack of Brady.

    You just can't be successful in the NFL without a pass rush, as we're about to find out over the next month playing Rivers, Stafford, Goff and Rodgers.

    So yeah, if we already had 2-3 young DE's that we could build our D-line around I'd agree with you guys who don't want to pay Frank............but we don't, so we will. He'll either get his monster deal, or we'll franchise him for a year or two. Which his agent said yesterday they were perfectly fine with.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:28 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Coug_Hawk08 wrote:Franchise tag, then move on. Draft and develop defense. No one defensive player is worth 20M+ in today’s game. Not enough consistent impact on winning overall.


    They absolutely are worth the money, it's why they make so much now.

    It's one of the main reasons why we won our SB, it's THE main reason the Broncos won their SB, and it won the Eagles their SB last year with the strip sack of Brady.

    You just can't be successful in the NFL without a pass rush, as we're about to find out over the next month playing Rivers, Stafford, Goff and Rodgers.

    So yeah, if we already had 2-3 young DE's that we could build our D-line around I'd agree with you guys who don't want to pay Frank............but we don't, so we will.
    He'll either get his monster deal, or we'll franchise him for a year or two. Which his agent said yesterday they were perfectly fine with.


    Here we go again. Clark is not Donnald, he is not Watt ($16M per year through 2021!!), he is not Mack, he is not MIller.......and he's NOT worth $20 million dollars!

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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:40 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Coug_Hawk08 wrote:Franchise tag, then move on. Draft and develop defense. No one defensive player is worth 20M+ in today’s game. Not enough consistent impact on winning overall.


    They absolutely are worth the money, it's why they make so much now.

    It's one of the main reasons why we won our SB, it's THE main reason the Broncos won their SB, and it won the Eagles their SB last year with the strip sack of Brady.

    You just can't be successful in the NFL without a pass rush, as we're about to find out over the next month playing Rivers, Stafford, Goff and Rodgers.

    So yeah, if we already had 2-3 young DE's that we could build our D-line around I'd agree with you guys who don't want to pay Frank............but we don't, so we will.
    He'll either get his monster deal, or we'll franchise him for a year or two. Which his agent said yesterday they were perfectly fine with.


    Here we go again. Clark is not Donnald, he is not Watt ($16M per year through 2021!!), he is not Mack, he is not MIller.......and he's NOT worth $20 million dollars!

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    But that is almost irrelevant as none of them are due for a contract at the end of this year.
    How much would you want to pay him? What do you think he is worth? If he finishes with 12-15 sacks what do you think he will get on the open market?
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:54 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Coug_Hawk08 wrote:Franchise tag, then move on. Draft and develop defense. No one defensive player is worth 20M+ in today’s game. Not enough consistent impact on winning overall.


    They absolutely are worth the money, it's why they make so much now.

    It's one of the main reasons why we won our SB, it's THE main reason the Broncos won their SB, and it won the Eagles their SB last year with the strip sack of Brady.

    You just can't be successful in the NFL without a pass rush, as we're about to find out over the next month playing Rivers, Stafford, Goff and Rodgers.

    So yeah, if we already had 2-3 young DE's that we could build our D-line around I'd agree with you guys who don't want to pay Frank............but we don't, so we will. He'll either get his monster deal, or we'll franchise him for a year or two. Which his agent said yesterday they were perfectly fine with.


    Isn't this exactly how we ended up giving monster deals to Lynch and the Legion that everyone hated? "We've failed to develop any alternatives, so we have to do this."?
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:54 am
  • ^^^IIga, You'll need to catch up. I've already stated all that in this thread.

    Rank Clark in his position group before you set his wage. I'd really like to hear how he is even top 10.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:08 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Coug_Hawk08 wrote:Franchise tag, then move on. Draft and develop defense. No one defensive player is worth 20M+ in today’s game. Not enough consistent impact on winning overall.


    They absolutely are worth the money, it's why they make so much now.

    It's one of the main reasons why we won our SB, it's THE main reason the Broncos won their SB, and it won the Eagles their SB last year with the strip sack of Brady.

    You just can't be successful in the NFL without a pass rush, as we're about to find out over the next month playing Rivers, Stafford, Goff and Rodgers.

    So yeah, if we already had 2-3 young DE's that we could build our D-line around I'd agree with you guys who don't want to pay Frank............but we don't, so we will. He'll either get his monster deal, or we'll franchise him for a year or two. Which his agent said yesterday they were perfectly fine with.


    Isn't this exactly how we ended up giving monster deals to Lynch and the Legion that everyone hated? "We've failed to develop any alternatives, so we have to do this."?


    Right, and the overpaying narrative can change if we draft a pass rusher next year AND guys like Green start coming on as viable DE's.

    But DE is right up there with QB and LT as the most important positions on a team, so..............overpaid. As many have said, DE has even overtaken LT as the 2nd most important position because of how the league is changing into a flag football pass happy league.

    And Seymour, I agree Clark isn't worth 20M, but when you have no other above average to elite pass rushers on your roster, what choice do we have? This D-line is already thin and not very good at rushing the passer. No Clark and we become downright pathetic.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:18 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Coug_Hawk08 wrote:Franchise tag, then move on. Draft and develop defense. No one defensive player is worth 20M+ in today’s game. Not enough consistent impact on winning overall.


    They absolutely are worth the money, it's why they make so much now.

    It's one of the main reasons why we won our SB, it's THE main reason the Broncos won their SB, and it won the Eagles their SB last year with the strip sack of Brady.

    You just can't be successful in the NFL without a pass rush, as we're about to find out over the next month playing Rivers, Stafford, Goff and Rodgers.

    So yeah, if we already had 2-3 young DE's that we could build our D-line around I'd agree with you guys who don't want to pay Frank............but we don't, so we will. He'll either get his monster deal, or we'll franchise him for a year or two. Which his agent said yesterday they were perfectly fine with.


    Isn't this exactly how we ended up giving monster deals to Lynch and the Legion that everyone hated? "We've failed to develop any alternatives, so we have to do this."?


    Right, and the overpaying narrative can change if we draft a pass rusher next year AND guys like Green start coming on as viable DE's.

    But DE is right up there with QB and LT as the most important positions on a team, so..............overpaid. As many have said, DE has even overtaken LT as the 2nd most important position because of how the league is changing into a flag football pass happy league.

    And Seymour, I agree Clark isn't worth 20M, but when you have no other above average to elite pass rushers on your roster, what choice do we have?
    This D-line is already thin and not very good at rushing the passer. No Clark and we become downright pathetic.


    You have the choice to not pass rush as well until you find him OVER destroying your future with overbearing contracts. We are just getting out of cap hell next year, and people want to start a whole new round of cap madness. $20M Clark goes down and we are screwed as opposed to 4 1/2 Bradley McDougald type contracts where 3+ are always on the field.

    My other suggestion is quit drafting McDowells and we will have an answer soon enough.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:27 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    You have the choice to not pass rush as well until you find him OVER destroying your future with overbearing contracts. We are just getting out of cap hell next year, and people want to start a whole new round of cap madness. $20M Clark goes down and we are screwed as opposed to 4 1/2 Bradley McDougald type contracts where 3+ are always on the field..


    That's the problem though, there are far more McDougald's in the league than Clarks, thus why good DE's make so much.

    I get what you're saying, I don't like compromising our cap either. But IMO good DE's are just too important to let Clark walk, especially on this roster with no other good pass rushers.

    Again, maybe that changes next off season with the draft and more money to spend on free agency. But now? IMO gotta at least franchise him for a year if no reasonable extension can be worked out.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:36 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    You have the choice to not pass rush as well until you find him OVER destroying your future with overbearing contracts. We are just getting out of cap hell next year, and people want to start a whole new round of cap madness. $20M Clark goes down and we are screwed as opposed to 4 1/2 Bradley McDougald type contracts where 3+ are always on the field..


    That's the problem though, there are far more McDougald's in the league than Clarks, thus why good DE's make so much.

    I get what you're saying, I don't like compromising our cap either. But IMO good DE's are just too important to let Clark walk, especially on this roster with no other good pass rushers.

    Again, maybe that changes next off season with the draft and more money to spend on free agency. But now? IMO gotta at least franchise him for a year if no reasonable extension can be worked out.


    Not buying that, next man up. We had Avril and Bennett here 5 years and never had to even pay $10M per year for either one. People are freakin' and coping out IMO.

    Yes, it will cost more today, No it will not cost over double.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:42 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    You have the choice to not pass rush as well until you find him OVER destroying your future with overbearing contracts. We are just getting out of cap hell next year, and people want to start a whole new round of cap madness. $20M Clark goes down and we are screwed as opposed to 4 1/2 Bradley McDougald type contracts where 3+ are always on the field..


    That's the problem though, there are far more McDougald's in the league than Clarks, thus why good DE's make so much.

    I get what you're saying, I don't like compromising our cap either. But IMO good DE's are just too important to let Clark walk, especially on this roster with no other good pass rushers.

    Again, maybe that changes next off season with the draft and more money to spend on free agency. But now? IMO gotta at least franchise him for a year if no reasonable extension can be worked out.


    Not buying that, next man up. We had Avril and Bennett here 5 years and never had to even pay $10M per year for either one. People are freakin' and coping out IMO.

    Yes, it will cost more today, No it will not cost over double.


    But that's the thing, at the time of their contracts they were right there with the other highest paid D-lineman in the league 4-5 years ago. So you can't compare where those guys were 4-5 years ago and now.

    As the cap goes up, so do the average salaries at every position. Just so happens DE has escalated more because of where the league's at and how important the position is.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:25 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    You have the choice to not pass rush as well until you find him OVER destroying your future with overbearing contracts. We are just getting out of cap hell next year, and people want to start a whole new round of cap madness. $20M Clark goes down and we are screwed as opposed to 4 1/2 Bradley McDougald type contracts where 3+ are always on the field..


    That's the problem though, there are far more McDougald's in the league than Clarks, thus why good DE's make so much.

    I get what you're saying, I don't like compromising our cap either. But IMO good DE's are just too important to let Clark walk, especially on this roster with no other good pass rushers.

    Again, maybe that changes next off season with the draft and more money to spend on free agency. But now? IMO gotta at least franchise him for a year if no reasonable extension can be worked out.


    Not buying that, next man up. We had Avril and Bennett here 5 years and never had to even pay $10M per year for either one. People are freakin' and coping out IMO.

    Yes, it will cost more today, No it will not cost over double.


    But that's the thing, at the time of their contracts they were right there with the other highest paid D-lineman in the league 4-5 years ago. So you can't compare where those guys were 4-5 years ago and now.

    As the cap goes up, so do the average salaries at every position. Just so happens DE has escalated more because of where the league's at and how important the position is.


    You are wrong about that! Bennett when we first signed him for around $8M per year there were guys making +70% over that! Mario Williams was making around $13.5M at that time in 2012. After the first 7 top DE that all make $15M and up there are many good DE's around 10-12M still today. Suh (DT can swing to DE) just signed this year for $14M and we PASSED on him!!

    Do some homework.

    https://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-end/
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:50 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    That's the problem though, there are far more McDougald's in the league than Clarks, thus why good DE's make so much.

    I get what you're saying, I don't like compromising our cap either. But IMO good DE's are just too important to let Clark walk, especially on this roster with no other good pass rushers.

    Again, maybe that changes next off season with the draft and more money to spend on free agency. But now? IMO gotta at least franchise him for a year if no reasonable extension can be worked out.


    Not buying that, next man up. We had Avril and Bennett here 5 years and never had to even pay $10M per year for either one. People are freakin' and coping out IMO.

    Yes, it will cost more today, No it will not cost over double.


    But that's the thing, at the time of their contracts they were right there with the other highest paid D-lineman in the league 4-5 years ago. So you can't compare where those guys were 4-5 years ago and now.

    As the cap goes up, so do the average salaries at every position. Just so happens DE has escalated more because of where the league's at and how important the position is.


    You are wrong about that! Bennett when we first signed him for around $8M per year there were guys making +70% over that! Mario Williams was making around $13.5M at that time in 2012. After the first 7 top DE that all make $15M and up there are many good DE's around 10-12M still today. Suh (DT can swing to DE) just signed this year for $14M and we PASSED on him!!

    Do some homework.

    https://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-end/


    Right, 3-4 years ago the average annual salary was around 10M for the highest paid D-lineman, now over the past 3-4 years it's up over 17M.

    Thus where Clark's looking. You wanna go backwards, and I'm telling you that's not how this works. You can offer Clark 15M, but he knows he can get way more elsewhere, or force the Hawk's to franchise him for 19M.

    So let's just agree to disagree, again. I think he's worth keeping and building around until the depth needed on the D-line is drafted or aquired for cheaper, and you think it's OK to suck on the D-line without Clark because you don't think he's worth that.

    In essence you think 4-5M isn't worth having an average D-line with a top pass rusher vs a terrible D-line with literally no pass rushers. That's a great recipe for more losses like we saw earlier in the year against the Rams, Bears and Broncos where the QB had all day to throw. What do you think those scores would look like without Clark? Cause that's what you're saying.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:16 am
  • It's good for both sides that there are still 10 games left in the season. It's simply too early for the Hawks to give Clark a huge extension, and with Clark's camp getting insurance and welcoming a franchise tag they are in no rush to get a deal done either. All of the options are still open and will depend a lot on these next 10 games. Best case scenario is that he earns the extension from the Hawks. Next best option is probably some sort of tag and trade.

    As a fan with a long-term interest in the team I do not agree with overpaying players based on perceived need. I see that as a short term approach that leads to trouble down the road, whereas I have a very low discount rate as a fan and would like to see the team trying to maximize wins over the next fifty years. Competitive "windows" are self-inflicted by teams that go all-in because NFL owners are impatient and so front offices are forced to operate with high discount rates and short-term priorities to keep their jobs.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:55 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Not buying that, next man up. We had Avril and Bennett here 5 years and never had to even pay $10M per year for either one. People are freakin' and coping out IMO.

    Yes, it will cost more today, No it will not cost over double.


    But that's the thing, at the time of their contracts they were right there with the other highest paid D-lineman in the league 4-5 years ago. So you can't compare where those guys were 4-5 years ago and now.

    As the cap goes up, so do the average salaries at every position. Just so happens DE has escalated more because of where the league's at and how important the position is.


    You are wrong about that! Bennett when we first signed him for around $8M per year there were guys making +70% over that! Mario Williams was making around $13.5M at that time in 2012. After the first 7 top DE that all make $15M and up there are many good DE's around 10-12M still today. Suh (DT can swing to DE) just signed this year for $14M and we PASSED on him!!

    Do some homework.

    https://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-end/


    Right, 3-4 years ago the average annual salary was around 10M for the highest paid D-lineman, now over the past 3-4 years it's up over 17M.

    Thus where Clark's looking. You wanna go backwards, and I'm telling you that's not how this works. You can offer Clark 15M, but he knows he can get way more elsewhere, or force the Hawk's to franchise him for 19M.

    So let's just agree to disagree, again. I think he's worth keeping and building around until the depth needed on the D-line is drafted or aquired for cheaper, and you think it's OK to suck on the D-line without Clark because you don't think he's worth that.

    In essence you think 4-5M isn't worth having an average D-line with a top pass rusher vs a terrible D-line with literally no pass rushers.
    That's a great recipe for more losses like we saw earlier in the year against the Rams, Bears and Broncos where the QB had all day to throw. What do you think those scores would look like without Clark? Cause that's what you're saying.


    No pass rushers is an exaggeration, Reed has 4 himself. Avril and Bennett and Clemons were other teams rejects and they worked out just fine. We have pass rushers and could blitz more as well, and Clark is just one of many 10 sack guys that can be found around the league. Clark is one of 15 players this year with 5.5 or more sacks after feasting on Cables low hanging gift fruit. He is not Miller or Mack no matter what his agent says.

    Let me ask you this....you pick one.
    Suh for $14M (signed this year)
    Clark for $20M
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    Seymour
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:12 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    But that's the thing, at the time of their contracts they were right there with the other highest paid D-lineman in the league 4-5 years ago. So you can't compare where those guys were 4-5 years ago and now.

    As the cap goes up, so do the average salaries at every position. Just so happens DE has escalated more because of where the league's at and how important the position is.


    You are wrong about that! Bennett when we first signed him for around $8M per year there were guys making +70% over that! Mario Williams was making around $13.5M at that time in 2012. After the first 7 top DE that all make $15M and up there are many good DE's around 10-12M still today. Suh (DT can swing to DE) just signed this year for $14M and we PASSED on him!!

    Do some homework.

    https://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-end/


    Right, 3-4 years ago the average annual salary was around 10M for the highest paid D-lineman, now over the past 3-4 years it's up over 17M.

    Thus where Clark's looking. You wanna go backwards, and I'm telling you that's not how this works. You can offer Clark 15M, but he knows he can get way more elsewhere, or force the Hawk's to franchise him for 19M.

    So let's just agree to disagree, again. I think he's worth keeping and building around until the depth needed on the D-line is drafted or aquired for cheaper, and you think it's OK to suck on the D-line without Clark because you don't think he's worth that.

    In essence you think 4-5M isn't worth having an average D-line with a top pass rusher vs a terrible D-line with literally no pass rushers.
    That's a great recipe for more losses like we saw earlier in the year against the Rams, Bears and Broncos where the QB had all day to throw. What do you think those scores would look like without Clark? Cause that's what you're saying.


    No pass rushers is an exaggeration, Reed has 4 himself. Avril and Bennett and Clemons were other teams rejects and they worked out just fine. We have pass rushers and could blitz more as well, and Clark is just one of many 10 sack guys that can be found around the league. Clark is one of 15 players this year with 5.5 or more sacks after feasting on Cables low hanging gift fruit. He is not Miller or Mack no matter what his agent says.

    Let me ask you this....you pick one.
    Suh for $14M (signed this year)
    Clark for $20M


    D-line is like O-line, one link get's weakened and it affects the entire line. It's why Fluker's helped the O-line immensely, and it's why Clark has helped Reed, and vice versa. It ALL needs to work together. Doubt Reed has 4 sacks if Clark isn't on the team.

    But to answer your question, I'd take a 25 year old Clark in his prime for the next 4-5 years at 20M over a 31 year old Suh who's play is already starting to diminish.

    He should be dominating right now next to Donald and Brockers. What, 3 sacks, 10 tackles? Got his ass pancaked to China by Fluker. No thanks, I'll pay the extra 5-6M for Clark continuing to play well for the next 4-5 years.
    If there is no Seahawk football in heaven, then we will never die.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:22 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    You are wrong about that! Bennett when we first signed him for around $8M per year there were guys making +70% over that! Mario Williams was making around $13.5M at that time in 2012. After the first 7 top DE that all make $15M and up there are many good DE's around 10-12M still today. Suh (DT can swing to DE) just signed this year for $14M and we PASSED on him!!

    Do some homework.

    https://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-end/


    Right, 3-4 years ago the average annual salary was around 10M for the highest paid D-lineman, now over the past 3-4 years it's up over 17M.

    Thus where Clark's looking. You wanna go backwards, and I'm telling you that's not how this works. You can offer Clark 15M, but he knows he can get way more elsewhere, or force the Hawk's to franchise him for 19M.

    So let's just agree to disagree, again. I think he's worth keeping and building around until the depth needed on the D-line is drafted or aquired for cheaper, and you think it's OK to suck on the D-line without Clark because you don't think he's worth that.

    In essence you think 4-5M isn't worth having an average D-line with a top pass rusher vs a terrible D-line with literally no pass rushers.
    That's a great recipe for more losses like we saw earlier in the year against the Rams, Bears and Broncos where the QB had all day to throw. What do you think those scores would look like without Clark? Cause that's what you're saying.


    No pass rushers is an exaggeration, Reed has 4 himself. Avril and Bennett and Clemons were other teams rejects and they worked out just fine. We have pass rushers and could blitz more as well, and Clark is just one of many 10 sack guys that can be found around the league. Clark is one of 15 players this year with 5.5 or more sacks after feasting on Cables low hanging gift fruit. He is not Miller or Mack no matter what his agent says.

    Let me ask you this....you pick one.
    Suh for $14M (signed this year)
    Clark for $20M


    D-line is like O-line, one link get's weakened and it affects the entire line. It's why Fluker's helped the O-line immensely, and it's why Clark has helped Reed, and vice versa. It ALL needs to work together. Doubt Reed has 4 sacks if Clark isn't on the team.

    But to answer your question, I'd take a 25 year old Clark in his prime for the next 4-5 years at 20M over a 31 year old Suh who's play is already starting to diminish.

    He should be dominating right now next to Donald and Brockers. What, 3 sacks, 10 tackles? Got his ass pancaked to China by Fluker. No thanks, I'll pay the extra 5-6M for Clark continuing to play well for the next 4-5 years.


    And Clark has 3 also with a gift package from a backup Cable guy. Fluker on a good day can pancake anyone in the league including Watt, that means nothing.

    OK....you take Clark for $20M. But I'm going to send your ass to Cleveland now..bye bye. :twisted: :snack:
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:28 pm
  • Seymour wrote: But I'm going to send your ass to Cleveland now..bye bye. :twisted: :snack:


    Cruel.
    If there is no Seahawk football in heaven, then we will never die.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:58 pm
  • Yeah I did not mean to say Frank isn’t a nice player or that DEs are not important. It’s just paying them 20m is difficult to get value back from, and puts us in a position to make more difficult choices at other positions. Any game that goes by without serious pressure, sack etc. is a failure to produce on that value dedicated to them. With more player protection penalties than ever, it’s harder and harder for any defensive player to not also get caught with more negative or negated plays as well, which is marginalizing players broadly.

    Our own dominance on the DLine had to do with somewhat modest contracts (by comparison) at the position. If we paid Avril and Bennett each 12-15m a year, which I think would be a similar premium at the time vs 20m+ for Clark now, we would have lost guys that mattered. The obvious point being, to accumulate talent and win in games you need quite a few players to outplay their contracts. By paying Clark 20m+, there is almost no where for him to go but down (other than comparing to the next overpay). The overpay can never truly be balanced out, the money is gone/accounted for, but it can be workable assuming you have other ballers coming up on rookie deals at the same time.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:05 pm
  • Our FO has not dragged their feet in an attempt to sign FC.
    His agent just said their camp is not in a rush to sign and if he gets the FT, it will be an expected and a positive moment.
    It will take $20M+ to sign him.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:51 am
  • AgentDib wrote:It's good for both sides that there are still 10 games left in the season. It's simply too early for the Hawks to give Clark a huge extension, and with Clark's camp getting insurance and welcoming a franchise tag they are in no rush to get a deal done either. All of the options are still open and will depend a lot on these next 10 games. Best case scenario is that he earns the extension from the Hawks. Next best option is probably some sort of tag and trade.

    As a fan with a long-term interest in the team I do not agree with overpaying players based on perceived need. I see that as a short term approach that leads to trouble down the road, whereas I have a very low discount rate as a fan and would like to see the team trying to maximize wins over the next fifty years. Competitive "windows" are self-inflicted by teams that go all-in because NFL owners are impatient and so front offices are forced to operate with high discount rates and short-term priorities to keep their jobs.


    Eh...for the Patriots maybe. The rest of the league definitely needs to capitalize when they find themselves in that spot where the optimization starts converging, because they lack the QB who can do it with any offensive talent and the coaches with the ability to adapt far enough to alleviate constraints. For example, the Seahawks and 49ers with QBs on rookie contracts had a small span of time where they could carry greater depth, and both teams were juggernauts for a few years. That cap flexibility wasn't the only factor, to be sure, but it was large enough to warrant being in "final touches" mode in terms of FA signings. For Seattle the window would have been several years had they not made some bad (in hindsight) decisions around Graham and Harvin, and had they evaluated Cable properly in less than 7 years.

    That said, I am also not for overpaying at a position of need because even if I disagree about windows, we are not in the middle of one. Overpaying is exactly how you fail to achieve a window. Building and replenishing from within is how you build a team.

    I completely agree the market for DE is nuts, but I completely disagree we have to, or should, deal from a place of temporary weakness at a position where we have a strong track record of results without having to overpay.

    Clark is a nice player, but I don't want him at 20M or more than 16 really (and I'm not sure about 16). He has the ability to finish pressures, but the consistent bothering of the QB isn't there yet. Playing out this year, considering the franchise tag, all of those are preferable options (to me) to projecting a straight-line increase in production from where he is now to Mack, Watt, etc. territory and paying him for that. For a true game-changer like those, the extra mil or two to get to 20 doesn't smart nearly so much as 16M does for someone who isn't consistently disruptive.

    Bennett was consistently disruptive, run, pass, whatever, blowing up plays regardless of sack numbers. That is what it looks like. If Clark at his age was that disruptive, we could talk about an upper teens contract.
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:52 am
  • hawk45 wrote:
    AgentDib wrote:It's good for both sides that there are still 10 games left in the season. It's simply too early for the Hawks to give Clark a huge extension, and with Clark's camp getting insurance and welcoming a franchise tag they are in no rush to get a deal done either. All of the options are still open and will depend a lot on these next 10 games. Best case scenario is that he earns the extension from the Hawks. Next best option is probably some sort of tag and trade.

    As a fan with a long-term interest in the team I do not agree with overpaying players based on perceived need. I see that as a short term approach that leads to trouble down the road, whereas I have a very low discount rate as a fan and would like to see the team trying to maximize wins over the next fifty years. Competitive "windows" are self-inflicted by teams that go all-in because NFL owners are impatient and so front offices are forced to operate with high discount rates and short-term priorities to keep their jobs.


    Eh...for the Patriots maybe. The rest of the league definitely needs to capitalize when they find themselves in that spot where the optimization starts converging, because they lack the QB who can do it with any offensive talent and the coaches with the ability to adapt far enough to alleviate constraints. For example, the Seahawks and 49ers with QBs on rookie contracts had a small span of time where they could carry greater depth, and both teams were juggernauts for a few years. That cap flexibility wasn't the only factor, to be sure, but it was large enough to warrant being in "final touches" mode in terms of FA signings. For Seattle the window would have been several years had they not made some bad (in hindsight) decisions around Graham and Harvin, and had they evaluated Cable properly in less than 7 years.

    That said, I am also not for overpaying at a position of need because even if I disagree about windows, we are not in the middle of one. Overpaying is exactly how you fail to achieve a window. Building and replenishing from within is how you build a team.

    To Sgt's argument:

    I completely agree the market for DE is nuts, but I completely disagree we have to, or should, deal from a place of temporary weakness at a position where we have a strong track record of results without having to overpay.

    Clark is a nice player, but I don't want him at 20M or more than 16 really (and I'm not sure about 16). He has the ability to finish pressures, but the consistent bothering of the QB isn't there yet. Playing out this year, considering the franchise tag, all of those are preferable options (to me) to projecting a straight-line increase in production from where he is now to Mack, Watt, etc. territory and paying him for that. For a true game-changer like those, the extra mil or two to get to 20 doesn't smart nearly so much as 16M does for someone who isn't consistently disruptive.

    Bennett was consistently disruptive, run, pass, whatever, blowing up plays regardless of sack numbers. That is what it looks like. If Clark at his age was that disruptive, we could talk about an upper teens contract.
    hawk45
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Re: Time to pay Frank
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:25 am
  • hawk45 wrote:For example, the Seahawks and 49ers with QBs on rookie contracts had a small span of time where they could carry greater depth, and both teams were juggernauts for a few years. That cap flexibility wasn't the only factor, to be sure, but it was large enough to warrant being in "final touches" mode in terms of FA signings.

    Obviously hindsight is 20/20 and all that so I am generally willing to give a good front office like ours a pass on the moves that don't work. That being said, our 2017 "slump" and 2018 "reload" were entirely self-inflicted and with moves that worked better we could have kept momentum up even after we paid Russ.

    The Harvin and Graham trades were both disasters. We whiffed on our entire 2013 draft class and all but the top selections in our 2014 and 2015 draft classes. Our top pick in 2017 never played a snap, we replaced our kicker with somebody who couldn't make field goals, and we couldn't get any consistency in the running game due to OL issues and injuries along with RB injuries. We traded draft picks for band-aid solutions and restructured contracts for short term cap relief. To top it off a couple of our key defensive players couldn't get over a single bad play and became toxic.

    Despite all that we still haven't had a losing season in seven years because there are plenty of ways to get value in the NFL besides rookie QB contracts. We are generating as much or more added value from our secondary in 2018 as we did in 2013 from our QB contracts.
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