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2015 Our Offense - what changed?

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2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:25 am
  • I have noticed an interesting narrative about Wilson emerging - that a lot of our odd playcalling is a symptom of Wilson's inability to use a quick strike, middle of the field passing game. I had always considered this an issue with the playcalling but some are adamant that Wilson cannot do this.

    However, in 2015 it seems like he did. I seem to remember a much faster offense and the use of more slants, curls.

    The weird part is that the stats don't seem to bear this out. Maybe I am misremembering?

    I know that there was a large jump in his yardage from 2014 to 2015 (3475 to 4024) but the number of long passes was larger in 2015 than 2016 and his average yds per pass was more in 2015. So why don't we remember 2016 the same way? He actually had more yds passing in 2016 but less TD efficiency.

    (Part could be that season was 2 halves, I seem to remember him going on a tear in the latter half of the season. Was that just a lucky streak like flipping heads 10 times in a row? Or was it a system that finally clicked for him?)

    As one of the resident Wilson 'haters'* it is interesting to see if we can figure out whether we can recapture 2015 on some level. It seemed to work until we abandoned that offense (in the playoffs, but that might be because we were shelled from playing in the IceBowl II and then had to travel across the country twice...because I think we went back to Seattle for some unknown reason after that game)

    2015 is the example you have to use when people say that Wilson cannot work within a rhythm offense or use the short/intermediate passing game effectively. So either something materially changed (if the separation is in the preparation...then did the preparation change?) or he was working within a framework that masked these supposed weaknesses. Or that never was the offense and I am just not remembering it right?

    The only way forward given our roster is to find an approach that gets the ball out before pressure gets to us. That means replicating what we can from 2015 offense. So I thought a thread where people smarter and more knowledgeable than I am can share their thoughts on this might make sense.

    Can Wilson do this again? Why or Why not?





    * Not true. I just don't believe you give him a free pass or focus more on Wilson being great vs the team.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:56 am
  • TwistedHusky wrote:
    The only way forward given our roster is to find an approach that gets the ball out before pressure gets to us. That means replicating what we can from 2015 offense. So I thought a thread where people smarter and more knowledgeable than I am can share their thoughts on this might make sense. .


    We've always had this approach with Russell at QB. The problem is his protection is actually worse than it was in 2015, and more importantly the roster is different.

    What's worked for Russell in the past is having a RB like Lynch that defenses had to respect the play action on, AND receivers that Russell trusts, mainly Doug and Kearse (and in 2015 Lockett stretching the defense on play action).

    None of this exists now, so defenses with nasty front fours like the Broncos and Bears can just pin their ears back and collapse the pocket because they neither respect our run game nor our receivers to beat press one on one coverage.

    That's what we've seen so far, to a T.

    So you can't just say "we gotta develop a quick passing game to relieve the pressure." This only happens with a run game and receivers that can get separation quickly.........and again, receivers that Russell trusts implicitly to be EXACTLY where they're suppose to be in those tight short to intermediate windows.

    Without Doug, it just hasn't been there, and neither has the run game cause Pete is too impatient.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:56 am
  • TwistedHusky wrote:I have noticed an interesting narrative about Wilson emerging - that a lot of our odd playcalling is a symptom of Wilson's inability to use a quick strike, middle of the field passing game. I had always considered this an issue with the playcalling but some are adamant that Wilson cannot do this.

    However, in 2015 it seems like he did. I seem to remember a much faster offense and the use of more slants, curls.

    The weird part is that the stats don't seem to bear this out. Maybe I am misremembering?

    I know that there was a large jump in his yardage from 2014 to 2015 (3475 to 4024) but the number of long passes was larger in 2015 than 2016 and his average yds per pass was more in 2015. So why don't we remember 2016 the same way? He actually had more yds passing in 2016 but less TD efficiency.

    (Part could be that season was 2 halves, I seem to remember him going on a tear in the latter half of the season. Was that just a lucky streak like flipping heads 10 times in a row? Or was it a system that finally clicked for him?)

    As one of the resident Wilson 'haters'* it is interesting to see if we can figure out whether we can recapture 2015 on some level. It seemed to work until we abandoned that offense (in the playoffs, but that might be because we were shelled from playing in the IceBowl II and then had to travel across the country twice...because I think we went back to Seattle for some unknown reason after that game)

    2015 is the example you have to use when people say that Wilson cannot work within a rhythm offense or use the short/intermediate passing game effectively. So either something materially changed (if the separation is in the preparation...then did the preparation change?) or he was working within a framework that masked these supposed weaknesses. Or that never was the offense and I am just not remembering it right?

    The only way forward given our roster is to find an approach that gets the ball out before pressure gets to us. That means replicating what we can from 2015 offense. So I thought a thread where people smarter and more knowledgeable than I am can share their thoughts on this might make sense.

    Can Wilson do this again? Why or Why not?





    * Not true. I just don't believe you give him a free pass or focus more on Wilson being great vs the team.


    To quote the irrepressible Earth Wind and Fire "You won't find out if you never try". To me that'd the bigger hurdle than whether or not it would work. The will to try at all is the stumbling block.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:13 am
  • Largent,

    Ok but if the change in personnel is the culprit, how is calling longer developing pass plays instead the solution? Isn't that worse?

    If you don't have the protection, then not having RBs to dump off to, sending all your WRs long, and barely using your TEs (who can shield off defenders with their body) seems like it makes it worse.

    Also, your point seems to indicate this is not a limitation because of Wilson but because of the personnel around him.

    We were just in the preseason, supposedly WR was a strength. But most of the WRs we were trying to stack up were guys like Marshall, big bodied guys we can send out that win the redline. We should have been looking for slant guys (though Moore could be that - not seeing him used that way).

    You don't need much separation from the WRs on the short passes because the WR just needs to run to where the ball will be.

    If this is the problem, then it isn't a weakness of Wilson and getting rid of him would make no sense. The better option would be getting quick, shifty slot guys we can make the short passes to. That does not seem to be a Marshall or Brown types of FAs we were clearly trying to sign.

    I get you do the long passes to open up the middle, but that only works if you then throw over the middle.


    Are you saying that no version of the 2015 offense can be implemented with this personnel group?
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:25 am
  • Whew had to go way back in the vault for this one. So here was my thread back right before the 2015 run.

    viewtopic.php?f=2&t=118257

    You can tell i saw the future a little purely based on the shift in schedule. And that's the basis of my response here. 2015 was based largely on scheduling perfection if you're a Seahawks fan, and we executed accordingly. This is when the ravens were a laugher, , browns. Cards in disarray. Rams still locked us down during that stretch too, so there you go. We cannot physically scheme a solid game plan against a stout front. And obtw, Denver and Chicago, on the road, are no pushovers in the least. Let alone first game in thin air, followed by soldier field which has brought down aaron Rodgers too.

    We had the worst possible 2 game stretch to open the season. I would have rather had the pats or falcons on the road. These teams were both in the mud for a long time and trying to come out, they are truly fighting for their lives while we seem to be playing in a daze constantly. Anyone who thinks this team is playing with the backs against the wall don't count us out mentality like the dawn of this era is delusional. I read a thousand of the threads pre season saying as much and first laughed then cried, because when you have top five players in the league on both sides of the ball, you're a moron for trying to take that mentality to the game. How about sound executing, solid game management, winning culture instead?.

    But back to your point. I want the RO to come back, and heavily involve russ running and passing from it similar to the rpo style Nick foles used. Anytime russ burns someone for ten yards on a RO i really think it slows the rush a bit. Also i think we need deeper drops. Russ needs lots of space and when he can isolate from the defender in a wide open space, he annihilates them vs being penned in the pocket.

    I also feel our empty set is more a liability than threat, and it sucks that we went from Graham to vannett essentially. Wow.

    Just my opinion.
    Last edited by Optimus25 on Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:26 am
  • TwistedHusky wrote:
    We were just in the preseason, supposedly WR was a strength.


    Where did you see or hear that?

    Doug never even practiced, so anyone following the Hawks should have known WR was once again not going to be the strength of our offense.

    And our FO knew it too, that's why we fired everyone, got two run game coordinators in Solari and Schottenheimer, and acquired/drafted players like Dissly (run blocking TE), Fluker (run grater), Ed Dickson (big experienced run blocking TE) and used our first round pick on a RB.

    So if you're wondering why all the 5 and 7 step drops and passing 80% of the time? Beats the living hell out of me Husky, I have no idea why we're abandoning the run so quicky, when Carson's averaging 4 yards a carry, then he doesn't play the entire 2nd half?

    Pete's lose his mind dude, idk what to tell you.......................other than you can't spend your ENTIRE off season getting back to the run, and then asking all these players to do things they're not very good at, nor have been preparing to do.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:27 am
  • Optimus25 wrote:Whew had to go way back in the vault for this one. So here was my thread back right before the 2015 run.

    viewtopic.php?f=2&t=118257

    You can tell i saw the future a little purely based on the shift in schedule. And that's the basis of my response here. 2015 was based largely on scheduling perfection if you're a Seahawks fan, and we executed accordingly. This is when the ravens were a laugher, , browns. Cards in disarray. Rams still locked us down during that stretch too, so there you go. We cannot physically scheme a solid game plan against a stout front. And obtw, Denver and Chicago, on the road, are no pushovers in the least. Let alone first game in thin air, followed by soldier field which has brought down aaron Rodgers too.

    We had the worst possible 2 game stretch to open the season. I would have rather had the pats or falcons on the road. These teams were both in the mud for a long time and trying to come out, they are truly fighting for their lives while we seem to be playing in a daze constantly. Anyone who thinks this team is playing with the backs against the wall don't count us out mentality like the dawn of this era is delusional. I read a thousand of the threads pre season and first laughed then cried, because when you have top five players in the league on both sides of the ball, you're a moron for trying to take that mentality to the game. How about sound executing, solid game management, winning culture instead?.

    But back to your point. I want the RO to come back, and heavily involve russ running and passing from it similar to the rpo style Nick foles used. Anytime russ burns someone for ten yards on a RO i really think it slows the rush a bit. Also i think we need deeper drops. Russ needs lots of space and when he can isolate from the defender in a wide open space, he annihilates them vs being penned in the pocket.

    I also feel our empty set is more a liability than threat, and it sucks that we went from Graham to vannett essentially. Wow.

    Just my opinion.


    I would like deeper drops if the Hawks could actually execute a screen pass like I see so many other teams do. But they don't.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:27 am
  • Our defense.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:30 am
  • Diminished skills at QB and poor coaching. There are many people who feel that Wilson is an elite QB. He is a good QB but flashes of greatness don't make him great;at least not to me. He was lucky at the beginning of his career to have the best defense and running game. That didn't last and he was exposed when that ended. His speed and agility have dropped off the last 2-3 years and that is his go to game. Expecting a 5'10" QB to stand tall in the pocket is fantasy. He has to break out just to see his targets. Without a good OL and very good running game he can't succeed. Many here keep posting all his past stats; but I say "what has he done lately". I don't care about 3 or 4 years ago and all the numbers blah blah blah. I've been a Hawk fan for 42 years. I want wins not useless stats. Remember "Winning isn't everything it's the ONLY thing".
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:35 am
  • xray wrote: Remember "Winning isn't everything it's the ONLY thing".



    Even Vince Lombardi stated that was the quote he is least proud of and wish he'd never said. It sets impossible expectations and erases so much potential for enjoyment in life from lesser accomplishments. Not a quote to live by at all.

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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:36 am
  • xray wrote:Diminished skills at QB and poor coaching. There are many people who feel that Wilson is an elite QB. He is a good QB but flashes of greatness don't make him great;at least not to me. He was lucky at the beginning of his career to have the best defense and running game. That didn't last and he was exposed when that ended. His speed and agility have dropped off the last 2-3 years and that is his go to game. Expecting a 5'10" QB to stand tall in the pocket is fantasy. He has to break out just to see his targets. Without a good OL and very good running game he can't succeed. Many here keep posting all his past stats; but I say "what has he done lately". I don't care about 3 or 4 years ago and all the numbers blah blah blah. I've been a Hawk fan for 42 years. I want wins not useless stats. Remember "Winning isn't everything it's the ONLY thing".


    I agree that Russell's quickness has slowed a little, but all stats show that he can throw well from the pocket.

    The issue is there's rarely a clean pocket.

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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:40 am
  • xray wrote:Diminished skills at QB and poor coaching. There are many people who feel that Wilson is an elite QB. He is a good QB but flashes of greatness don't make him great;at least not to me. He was lucky at the beginning of his career to have the best defense and running game. That didn't last and he was exposed when that ended. His speed and agility have dropped off the last 2-3 years and that is his go to game. Expecting a 5'10" QB to stand tall in the pocket is fantasy. He has to break out just to see his targets. Without a good OL and very good running game he can't succeed. Many here keep posting all his past stats; but I say "what has he done lately". I don't care about 3 or 4 years ago and all the numbers blah blah blah. I've been a Hawk fan for 42 years. I want wins not useless stats. Remember "Winning isn't everything it's the ONLY thing".


    He was actually an integral part of that running game though. It's not like he was passively handing the ball off and letting Lynch do Lynch things exclusively. He was there, running himself, making himself an 'option'. And while the value of the RO diminished because defenses actually started getting a handle on it, which you would kind of expect them to do, the RO evaporated almost completely after 2015, and yes the first game injury to RW in 2016 probably spelled the end of it as part of the repertoire.

    And it's sad that you can diagnose that RW can't succeed without X and Y but seemingly the makeup of the team went the opposite of X and Y. Maybe the coaching staff has misplaced faith in RW to succeed but by your own belief in what helps RW, they did the opposite to support him, either purposefully or through just being poor at talent evaluation in OL and RB.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:11 am
  • The narrative of a “Quick Passing game” is often lazy thinking. And I don’t mean that specific to this thread. What I mean is that in order to have a “quick passing game” you still need respectable protection up front. The Packers vs the Bears..guess what? They could hold their own against Mack & company. Every elite QB has strong protection

    A strong pass rush can obviously harass any O-line. But when your O-line is weak, defenses can plan to jump your routes, press man coverage..because on every snap you’re toast under 3.5 seconds. A defense needs to be able to respect your protection enough to know they can’t assume, press, and jump routes.

    In 2015, in the second half the O-line was VERY respectable. The quick passing game at times worked because we could keep defenses honest. For a quick passing game to work, the O-line protection should be good enough to cleanly take deep shots. Watch a Tom Brady game and you’ll see what I’m talking about. He gets the ball out quick, but he has the OPTION to throw it deep. Both frustrate a defense, keeping them honest. :stirthepot:

    We’re asking Russ to do too much with what we’ve given him. The moment we decided to pay Wilson, we should have added a strong O-line and weapons. People talk about McVay, Peterson, and McNagy. But they all went out of their way to invest in their QB. McVay’s first move was to get Whitworth. His scheme doesn’t work without RESPECTABLE protection
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:39 am
  • True, but that is why you have the long routes. They open up the middle for those passes.

    Back in 2015, we had plenty of long passes, many for over 40. Generally, those were PA passes, so without a run game we lose those. But we are taking long shots now, which require protection - even more protection than the kind you are stating we would require for the shorter passes.

    Regardless, we bring up 2015 because this is an example of when Wilson was doing this. The myth started to be that Wilson CAN'T do these kinds of passes well and 2015 seemed to indicate he could. Now, the consensus is that the reason we cannot do this now is less because of Wilson and more because of either:

    1 . OL talent
    2 . WR that get separation

    Either way, those do not appear to be limitations on Wilson. So it is starting to look like the personnel creating the team we have built this team to be - is not conducive to Wilson's success. Which leads me to wonder who or what they are building around if we aren't building around the defense or the QB. ???

    Obviously, the playcalling changed with the new OC but I don't know that I agree that the success was a statistical anomaly based on the scheduling as Optimus suggests. We scored points in bunches on some decent defenses, the Ravens and the Steelers were not amazing but not terrible and we put up near 30.

    That was the year Wilson had his big shootout with Ben that we won. It wasn't just the sisters of the poor or paper-thin defenses he was raking.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:57 am
  • TwistedHusky wrote:True, but that is why you have the long routes. They open up the middle for those passes.

    Back in 2015, we had plenty of long passes, many for over 40. Generally, those were PA passes, so without a run game we lose those. But we are taking long shots now, which require protection - even more protection than the kind you are stating we would require for the shorter passes.

    Regardless, we bring up 2015 because this is an example of when Wilson was doing this. The myth started to be that Wilson CAN'T do these kinds of passes well and 2015 seemed to indicate he could. Now, the consensus is that the reason we cannot do this now is less because of Wilson and more because of either:

    1 . OL talent
    2 . WR that get separation

    Either way, those do not appear to be limitations on Wilson. So it is starting to look like the personnel creating the team we have built this team to be - is not conducive to Wilson's success. Which leads me to wonder who or what they are building around if we aren't building around the defense or the QB. ???

    Obviously, the playcalling changed with the new OC but I don't know that I agree that the success was a statistical anomaly based on the scheduling as Optimus suggests. We scored points in bunches on some decent defenses, the Ravens and the Steelers were not amazing but not terrible and we put up near 30.

    That was the year Wilson had his big shootout with Ben that we won. It wasn't just the sisters of the poor or paper-thin defenses he was raking.


    I listed above what our FO's intention was with what we're building around...........the run game. Every offensive coach, draft pick and player acquisition was to build a run game.

    So what's changed? Pete's insanity, impatience, disregard, or all of the above in abandoning the run game early in both games so far.

    Offensive scheming and personnel moves is not something you fix on the fly once the season starts. It takes an entire off season of installing the scheme/playbook AND acquiring the right players to run your offense.

    So why the hell we're throwing it 80% of the time watching Russell get sacked over over is beyond me.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:09 am
  • Kearse, Baldwin, and Rookie Lockett were way better than what we have now. Baldwin and Lockett were great at creating separation (Baldwin elite at this) and Lockett had burner speed. Kearse didn't get much separation, but Russ trusted the heck out of him. Trust is the big difference. Wilson Trusts Marshall, maybe Lockett, but not really anyone else. You have to have that trust to get the ball out quickly before a receiver is open.

    Combine that with playing bad/injured defenses and we went on a historic offensive run. Also our OL was NOT good that year. Got demolished against remotely respectable DL.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:24 am
  • TwistedHusky wrote:...Back in 2015, we had plenty of long passes, many for over 40. Generally, those were PA passes, so without a run game we lose those. But we are taking long shots now, which require protection - even more protection than the kind you are stating we would require for the shorter passes...


    So you are asking why we are trying to throw deep which requires more protection, instead of a quicker pass game?

    So, nevermind the run game, because right now, it's inexplicable what is happening, from play design, commitment to, and personnel use.

    Defenses have to accept a vulnerability no matter what they do. If you play tight press, you are exposing yourself to deep shots and a big play run game at times, because the DBs have so much focus directed towards their man they can be late to respond to run support. If you play soft zone, you can be more reactionary to the run, but risk a precision attack nickle and diming you. There are a myriad ways to line up, and all of them have particular strengths and weaknesses.

    Now, you are a DC playing the Hawks. They have shown that they have been unwilling/unable to run the ball. They have also shown an inability to even adequately pass block decent defensive fronts, which mean time to hurry/hit/sack Wilson is very low. Now, Run Game and Deep Shots are acknowledged Press Man vulnerabilities. Since Seattle is poor at taking advantage in either of those scenarios, why do anything else?

    To get a defense to stop doing what they are doing, you have to hurt them by exploiting one of the weakness they have chosen to expose. In order to throw short, you must hurt them with the run or deep ball to get them to adjust. So far, our weaknesses have been greater than our opponents weaknesses, pure and simple.

    PS It is more nuanced and complicated than this. You could also make great use of rub routes and the screen game for example. Oh hell, two more things we don't coach/suck at......
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:40 am
  • Technically I am asking what factors are preventing us from running an offense like 2015, or if Wilson can repeat something similar.

    I was saying we do the long passes anyway, so it makes no sense to say we cannot do short to med range quick passes because we cannot protect when a good % of our offensive attempts are long passes that require more protection.

    Say we admit the look is that we chose to build the team around the run game, instead of the QB or defense.

    And the run game is a key element that would allow us to flourish with the midrange to short passing (which I think is the opposite - if you don't bother using the middle of the field the defense can move almost everything near the LOS and just keep the safeties deep for the deep shots. That would make running the ball much more difficult. So balancing run and short pass seems more reasonable given the personnel we have.)

    It still seems to argue that run and short passing makes more sense than the current approach and nothing about the difference between now and 2015 seems to indicate this is not possible because of some inherent flaw in Wilson's game.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:40 am
  • Scorpion05 wrote:Every elite QB has strong protection


    And here we see the old myth come out again.

    There's been no correlation between OL strength and deep playoff runs. Aaron Rodgers has been one of the most-sacked QB's at times during his career. Ben Roethlisberger has had terrible protection at times. Cards, same thing when they went a few years ago. Same with the 2013-2014 Seahawks, whom NOBODY on this board thought had a good OL at the time. Nobody.

    Tony Romo, on the other hand, had terrific protection over the years. If the quoted statement were true, he should have won the Cowboys a half dozen Super Bowls. He came close once.

    QB play and scheme play just as much a role in keeping QB's upright as OL's do. That's especially been true in the last 15 years as spread concepts and up-tempo work have worked their way up from college offenses. If you do have a good OL, that's awesome, and it'll give you some options. But a good OL does not mask a QB's issues.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:06 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:Every elite QB has strong protection


    And here we see the old myth come out again.

    There's been no correlation between OL strength and deep playoff runs. Aaron Rodgers has been one of the most-sacked QB's at times during his career. Ben Roethlisberger has had terrible protection at times. Cards, same thing when they went a few years ago. Same with the 2013-2014 Seahawks, whom NOBODY on this board thought had a good OL at the time. Nobody.

    Tony Romo, on the other hand, had terrific protection over the years. If the quoted statement were true, he should have won the Cowboys a half dozen Super Bowls. He came close once.

    QB play and scheme play just as much a role in keeping QB's upright as OL's do. That's especially been true in the last 15 years as spread concepts and up-tempo work have worked their way up from college offenses. If you do have a good OL, that's awesome, and it'll give you some options. But a good OL does not mask a QB's issues.


    I would contend you may not need good/great OL play. But 5 or 6 sacks by halftime? Give Wilson full credit for, hell, 30% to 40% of the sacks allowed if you want. 4+ sacks a game is not even adequate, nevermind good.

    30ish sacks per season is usually middle of the road. We have a QB that plays a bit differently and takes more sacks. Usually comes in around 50ish (league leading or close to it) per season.

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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:11 pm
  • Scorpion05 wrote:The narrative of a “Quick Passing game” is often lazy thinking. And I don’t mean that specific to this thread. What I mean is that in order to have a “quick passing game” you still need respectable protection up front. The Packers vs the Bears..guess what? They could hold their own against Mack & company. Every elite QB has strong protection

    A strong pass rush can obviously harass any O-line. But when your O-line is weak, defenses can plan to jump your routes, press man coverage..because on every snap you’re toast under 3.5 seconds. A defense needs to be able to respect your protection enough to know they can’t assume, press, and jump routes.

    In 2015, in the second half the O-line was VERY respectable. The quick passing game at times worked because we could keep defenses honest. For a quick passing game to work, the O-line protection should be good enough to cleanly take deep shots. Watch a Tom Brady game and you’ll see what I’m talking about. He gets the ball out quick, but he has the OPTION to throw it deep. Both frustrate a defense, keeping them honest. :stirthepot:

    We’re asking Russ to do too much with what we’ve given him. The moment we decided to pay Wilson, we should have added a strong O-line and weapons. People talk about McVay, Peterson, and McNagy. But they all went out of their way to invest in their QB. McVay’s first move was to get Whitworth. His scheme doesn’t work without RESPECTABLE protection

    ^THIS^, people/Coaches expecting Wilson to continue performing miracles with a shitty O-Line in front of him are being delusional.....You can't just 'Dabble' at building a Run Game, or just put a flimsy Band-Aid on your>> Pass-Protection<<<, and expect ANY Quarterback to just tread water until the Offensive Line gets it.
    If you're getting decent runs, WHY abandon the Run Game???? Why get away from what seems to be working fairly well for ya????
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:20 pm
  • 2nd half of 2015 the offense started to gel when Graham went out and Russ quit trying to force him the ball. This allowed everybody to be a factor in the offense, the read option was being run and Rawls was the benefit of some nice running lanes instead of just receiving a hand off and trying to beat the Dline by himself, this in turn opened up the long ball, and the schedule was favorable in that stretch. Oline was better then also.

    Start of the 2016 to present Pete went straight back to that ball control/home run, feast or famine offense and with the Oline and talent we have had,,,,,it isnt working.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:59 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:Every elite QB has strong protection


    And here we see the old myth come out again.

    There's been no correlation between OL strength and deep playoff runs. Aaron Rodgers has been one of the most-sacked QB's at times during his career. Ben Roethlisberger has had terrible protection at times. Cards, same thing when they went a few years ago. Same with the 2013-2014 Seahawks, whom NOBODY on this board thought had a good OL at the time. Nobody.

    Tony Romo, on the other hand, had terrific protection over the years. If the quoted statement were true, he should have won the Cowboys a half dozen Super Bowls. He came close once.

    QB play and scheme play just as much a role in keeping QB's upright as OL's do. That's especially been true in the last 15 years as spread concepts and up-tempo work have worked their way up from college offenses. If you do have a good OL, that's awesome, and it'll give you some options. But a good OL does not mask a QB's issues.



    It's not a myth if it's rooted in facts

    Packers - David Bakhtiari, Bryan Bulaga. T.J Lang , Jeff Saturday, Josh Sitton, Scott Wells, Chad Clifton.

    ALL of these players(except for Bulaga, who would be an instant upgrade here) were pro-bowlers and considered among the best in the league during their time with Rodgers. Currently they still have Bakhtiari and Bulaga, and recently gave up Lang and Sitton. They have always protected Rodgers well. Rodgers' sacks could more credibly be credited to him holding the ball, given the performance of his O-lines over the years

    Steelers - Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro. Recent Pro-bowlers, just among the few of good to great O-linemen the Steelers have had during Big Ben's tenure

    Eagles - Brandon Brooks (pro-bowl), Lane Johnson (pro-bowl), Jason Kelce (pretty good, pro-bowl alternate)
    Rams - Andrew Whitworth, Roger Saffold (second team All-Pro), and other solids such as Rob Havenstein

    Falcons - Alex Mack, Ryan Schraeder. Among the reasons the Falcons were ranked by PFF as 2nd best in 2017

    Patriots - Shaq Mason, David Andrews, and formerly Nate Soldier. All considered amongst the best at their position. Bill Belicheck would settle for nothing less

    Saints - Ryan Ramczyk, Max Unger.

    These are all considered amongst the top offenses in the league. And they haven't allowed the dumpster fire of O-line protection that we've come to accept as a fan base

    A great O-line alone will not lead to deep playoff runs. But having good to great O-lines and talent IS key to successful playoff runs. Dak has had a great O-line. But Dak is also not Brady, Rodgers, Brees, or Russ

    I may lean towards defending Wilson most of the time. But we're getting to a point where we're ignoring the basic and obvious as an excuse to critique him. Yes, Wilson holds onto the ball. And Yes, he is being given extremely piss poor pathetic protection. By any objective standard. So like I said before, EVERY other top Quarterback in the league are given good to great protection, with pro-bowlers and top coached talent to protect them. Which allows them to execute their offense consistently. O-line protection matters. It is not something you can neglect, or negate with "quick passes." It is something that serious teams who VALUE their Quarterback invest in. We've done a poor job of investing in Russell's growth and the gap between his O-line versus what Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Wentz, Big Ben, and Matt Ryan has is disturbing
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:49 pm
  • I believe the 2016 game against the Dolphins, in which Russell Wilson suffered a mcl injury, changed both Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson. Prior to the injury Russell was dangerous both on his feet and with his arm. There used to be plays where he would be the first option to run the ball. There’s been less of that, last season and thus far this season. Their whole offensive philosophy changed after RW got hurt. Their scoring, points per game, has dropped. They used to score over 24 pts per game but since 2016 season they have been under that.

    2015 - 26.4 pts per game
    2016 - 22.1 pts per game
    2017 - 22.9 pts per game
    2018 - 20.5 pts per game

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2015.htm
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:52 pm
  • Scorpion05 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:Every elite QB has strong protection


    And here we see the old myth come out again.

    There's been no correlation between OL strength and deep playoff runs. Aaron Rodgers has been one of the most-sacked QB's at times during his career. Ben Roethlisberger has had terrible protection at times. Cards, same thing when they went a few years ago. Same with the 2013-2014 Seahawks, whom NOBODY on this board thought had a good OL at the time. Nobody.

    Tony Romo, on the other hand, had terrific protection over the years. If the quoted statement were true, he should have won the Cowboys a half dozen Super Bowls. He came close once.

    QB play and scheme play just as much a role in keeping QB's upright as OL's do. That's especially been true in the last 15 years as spread concepts and up-tempo work have worked their way up from college offenses. If you do have a good OL, that's awesome, and it'll give you some options. But a good OL does not mask a QB's issues.



    It's not a myth if it's rooted in facts

    Packers - David Bakhtiari, Bryan Bulaga. T.J Lang , Jeff Saturday, Josh Sitton, Scott Wells, Chad Clifton.

    ALL of these players(except for Bulaga, who would be an instant upgrade here) were pro-bowlers and considered among the best in the league during their time with Rodgers. Currently they still have Bakhtiari and Bulaga, and recently gave up Lang and Sitton. They have always protected Rodgers well. Rodgers' sacks could more credibly be credited to him holding the ball, given the performance of his O-lines over the years

    Steelers - Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro. Recent Pro-bowlers, just among the few of good to great O-linemen the Steelers have had during Big Ben's tenure

    Eagles - Brandon Brooks (pro-bowl), Lane Johnson (pro-bowl), Jason Kelce (pretty good, pro-bowl alternate)
    Rams - Andrew Whitworth, Roger Saffold (second team All-Pro), and other solids such as Rob Havenstein

    Falcons - Alex Mack, Ryan Schraeder. Among the reasons the Falcons were ranked by PFF as 2nd best in 2017

    Patriots - Shaq Mason, David Andrews, and formerly Nate Soldier. All considered amongst the best at their position. Bill Belicheck would settle for nothing less

    Saints - Ryan Ramczyk, Max Unger.

    These are all considered amongst the top offenses in the league. And they haven't allowed the dumpster fire of O-line protection that we've come to accept as a fan base

    A great O-line alone will not lead to deep playoff runs. But having good to great O-lines and talent IS key to successful playoff runs. Dak has had a great O-line. But Dak is also not Brady, Rodgers, Brees, or Russ

    I may lean towards defending Wilson most of the time. But we're getting to a point where we're ignoring the basic and obvious as an excuse to critique him. Yes, Wilson holds onto the ball. And Yes, he is being given extremely piss poor pathetic protection. By any objective standard. So like I said before, EVERY other top Quarterback in the league are given good to great protection, with pro-bowlers and top coached talent to protect them. Which allows them to execute their offense consistently. O-line protection matters. It is not something you can neglect, or negate with "quick passes." It is something that serious teams who VALUE their Quarterback invest in. We've done a poor job of investing in Russell's growth and the gap between his O-line versus what Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Wentz, Big Ben, and Matt Ryan has is disturbing


    And every team serious about getting the most out of their QB actually drafts and spends FA money, for better or worse for the entirety of the team, on tools to support that QB beyond just OL. They also hired OCs and fired OCs based on mesh with the QB. Found WRs that meshed with their QB and OC, etc etc.

    It's not like Rodgers or Brees or Brady went out there and earned the right to have a better offense by crawling through the muck for a couple of seasons with putrid support and then everyone around them realizing "this would be even better if he had more weapons and protection". There was in part a leap a faith that if the teams provided these tools to those players, they could succeed even more.

    And I defy anyone to point to what Seattle has done in a robust effort to provide what RW needs to maximize his talents on an act of faith in him. Was Jimmy Graham the best effort? Was Read Option the best effort? Was firing Bevell and replacing him with an even more milquetoast yesman to PC the best effort? Cause that's all I have and that pales in comparison to what NO, GB and NE have done in support of their QBs.

    And if a QB has to earn their protection and weapons before they get them by demonstrating they don't really need it...it just breaks my brain. If the Legendary 3 are so good why do their teams invest so much in their support, and not just in cash money but with OC and at the expense of defense? And if the Legendary 3 don't need that support and have proved they don't need it, then why have teams offered it anyway? FWIW only the 2x GOAT Candidate Pats are even close to us in cap usage Offense/Defense and position group across multiple years.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:17 pm
  • hawkfan68 wrote:I believe the 2016 game against the Dolphins, in which Russell Wilson suffered a mcl injury, changed both Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson. Prior to the injury Russell was dangerous both on his feet and with his arm. There used to be plays where he would be the first option to run the ball. There’s been less of that, last season and thus far this season. Their whole offensive philosophy changed after RW got hurt. Their scoring, points per game, has dropped. They used to score over 24 pts per game but since 2016 season they have been under that.

    2015 - 26.4 pts per game
    2016 - 22.1 pts per game
    2017 - 22.9 pts per game
    2018 - 20.5 pts per game

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2015.htm

    That injury may very well have changed him.
    I don't see the same speed he had since that time
    and he seems even slower and for him that really
    hurts since he likes to bail out of the pocket...
    I don't understand why some cannot see there is no
    OL that can block for a QB who won't USE the pocket.
    How are supposed to block when they can't see which
    way he takes off or when he holds the rock too long?
    Anyway looking at the scoring,it looks like we are going
    to average about 18.5 pg this year..Looks like we need
    to use that 33 million and picks for a lot of pieces to fix
    this team.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:24 pm
  • Scorpion05 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:Every elite QB has strong protection


    And here we see the old myth come out again.

    There's been no correlation between OL strength and deep playoff runs. Aaron Rodgers has been one of the most-sacked QB's at times during his career. Ben Roethlisberger has had terrible protection at times. Cards, same thing when they went a few years ago. Same with the 2013-2014 Seahawks, whom NOBODY on this board thought had a good OL at the time. Nobody.

    Tony Romo, on the other hand, had terrific protection over the years. If the quoted statement were true, he should have won the Cowboys a half dozen Super Bowls. He came close once.

    QB play and scheme play just as much a role in keeping QB's upright as OL's do. That's especially been true in the last 15 years as spread concepts and up-tempo work have worked their way up from college offenses. If you do have a good OL, that's awesome, and it'll give you some options. But a good OL does not mask a QB's issues.



    It's not a myth if it's rooted in facts

    Packers - David Bakhtiari, Bryan Bulaga. T.J Lang , Jeff Saturday, Josh Sitton, Scott Wells, Chad Clifton.

    ALL of these players(except for Bulaga, who would be an instant upgrade here) were pro-bowlers and considered among the best in the league during their time with Rodgers. Currently they still have Bakhtiari and Bulaga, and recently gave up Lang and Sitton. They have always protected Rodgers well. Rodgers' sacks could more credibly be credited to him holding the ball, given the performance of his O-lines over the years

    Steelers - Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro. Recent Pro-bowlers, just among the few of good to great O-linemen the Steelers have had during Big Ben's tenure

    Eagles - Brandon Brooks (pro-bowl), Lane Johnson (pro-bowl), Jason Kelce (pretty good, pro-bowl alternate)
    Rams - Andrew Whitworth, Roger Saffold (second team All-Pro), and other solids such as Rob Havenstein

    Falcons - Alex Mack, Ryan Schraeder. Among the reasons the Falcons were ranked by PFF as 2nd best in 2017

    Patriots - Shaq Mason, David Andrews, and formerly Nate Soldier. All considered amongst the best at their position. Bill Belicheck would settle for nothing less

    Saints - Ryan Ramczyk, Max Unger.

    These are all considered amongst the top offenses in the league. And they haven't allowed the dumpster fire of O-line protection that we've come to accept as a fan base

    A great O-line alone will not lead to deep playoff runs. But having good to great O-lines and talent IS key to successful playoff runs. Dak has had a great O-line. But Dak is also not Brady, Rodgers, Brees, or Russ

    I may lean towards defending Wilson most of the time. But we're getting to a point where we're ignoring the basic and obvious as an excuse to critique him. Yes, Wilson holds onto the ball. And Yes, he is being given extremely piss poor pathetic protection. By any objective standard. So like I said before, EVERY other top Quarterback in the league are given good to great protection, with pro-bowlers and top coached talent to protect them. Which allows them to execute their offense consistently. O-line protection matters. It is not something you can neglect, or negate with "quick passes." It is something that serious teams who VALUE their Quarterback invest in. We've done a poor job of investing in Russell's growth and the gap between his O-line versus what Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Wentz, Big Ben, and Matt Ryan has is disturbing


    Excellent post Scorpion! These guys are working with much better OL than Russ and it isn't close!

    I'll add that the Cowboys OL wasn't "The Cowboys OL" until 2014, so Romo got one year with them, put up MVP level numbers, and almost beat the Packers (Dez dropped it game). He proceeded to get injured in 2015 and 2016 so never really took advantage of the dominant OL at its peak beyond one season.

    Throw in Brady, too.

    LT Nate Solder and RT Marcus Cannon were/are both really good. Shaq Mason at RG has been solid, David Andrews is also a good center. Overall their line performs better than the sum of its parts.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:46 pm
  • What changed?

    Marshawn Lynch left the team and they were left with no running game which covered a great number of the already apparent warts. Further the OLine got a good deal worse and we have now got a RT that is not worthy of being a starter and have had various guards that were also unworthy of being considered starting quality. Added to this the team has had an OC that was hardly better than a high school OC. The running game coordinator/?OLine guru failed to meet any stated objective and the pass protection was as awful as the total inability to run the ball. Those two jobs have changed and the coaches have been replaced but their overseeing direction seems stuck.

    Pete seems stuck in 'coach talk' about wanting run the ball while quietly preferring a downfield passing without pass protection. He preaches competition but has not lived his philosophy by his personnel choices on the field. The team needs to sell out to run the darn ball.

    What changed? I believe frankly not much except the personnel and the personnel we have here aren't getting it done, but they weren't earlier and the defence is rebuilding but now lack any genuine edge presence.

    I love my team and think there are some very good players on this team's roster but they have not come together and many are injured or their effectiveness has been diminished by their present injuries.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

    Super Bowl XLVIII Champions at last after 38 seasons. Awesome!!!
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:52 pm
  • deleted double posting
    Last edited by jammerhawk on Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

    Super Bowl XLVIII Champions at last after 38 seasons. Awesome!!!
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:04 pm
  • When the offense exploded in the latter half of the season, Lynch wasn't even playing. Rawls was tearing it up as our starting RB until he got hurt. Then it was Bryce Brown and I forget who. Running backs matter! :mrgreen:
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:07 pm
  • jammerhawk wrote:Marshawn Lynch left the team and they were left with no running game which covered a great number of the already apparent warts.


    Rawls ran for 800+ yards in 13 games during the 2015 season. We had a running game.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:10 pm
  • That is true about Rawls ( he was a flash in the pan though), however since Rawls got hurt the team has struggled mightily to find a RB who can be the bell cow and to block for the run with any reliability or consistent effectiveness. maybe i misunderstand the question b/c it is what has changed since and without Lynch the team has struggled with a change of focus.

    Right now Pete wants to have a rookie show up and be all that he hopes when the team has a RB who has outcompeted that rookie for PT. The personnel decisions are confusing or confused.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

    Super Bowl XLVIII Champions at last after 38 seasons. Awesome!!!
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:15 pm
  • jammerhawk wrote:That is true about Rawls ( he was a flash in the pan though), however since Rawls got hurt the team has struggled mightily to find a RB who can be the bell cow and to block for the run with any reliability or consistent effectiveness. maybe i misunderstand the question b/c it is what has changed since and without Lynch the team has struggled with a change of focus.

    Right now Pete wants to have a rookie show up and be all that he hopes when the team has a RB who has outcompeted that rookie for PT. The personnel decisions are confusing or confused.


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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:44 pm
  • I watched the 2013 NFC Championship game vs. the Niners...and the offense looks eerily similar.

    The balance was there...Beastmode ran the ball more, but was held to 27 first half yards.

    We led the league in rushing avg-137 yds/game too. But, despite our run game and Beastmode’s presence the play action was ineffective. Aldon Smith ran right thru our Oline and a younger, lighter, faster Russ was sacked 4 times...IN THE FIRST HALF.

    Russ scrambled out of the pocket many times -pressure almost immediately. 2 times he held onto the ball too long, but he converted one into a 50 yd strike to Doug Baldwin.

    And most of the passes were intermediate. He missed Kearse on a 20 yd dig route, threw a 20 out route to Baldwin, threw a 20 yd seam route to Luke Wilsson-Dropped it after a helmet hit,

    Russ also thru a 6 yd out route to Zach Miller, a bubble screen to Baldwin, and a 11 slant route to Baldwin on 3rd and 9...but
    despite a leaky Oline, and facing a fierce pass rusher -Aldon Smith- and a blitzing Navarro Bowman, the Hawks continued to call intermediate routes.

    But, here’s the difference. I mean, the NFC Championship game plan almost looked identical to the Bears. Even the score was the same...behind 10-3 at the half.

    I don’t know if the game plan will be much different vs the Cowboys....but we need to run the ball more, to balance it out because that’s the difference between winning and losing games under the Pete Carroll regime.
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:49 pm
  • Scorpion05 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:Every elite QB has strong protection


    And here we see the old myth come out again.

    There's been no correlation between OL strength and deep playoff runs. Aaron Rodgers has been one of the most-sacked QB's at times during his career. Ben Roethlisberger has had terrible protection at times. Cards, same thing when they went a few years ago. Same with the 2013-2014 Seahawks, whom NOBODY on this board thought had a good OL at the time. Nobody.

    Tony Romo, on the other hand, had terrific protection over the years. If the quoted statement were true, he should have won the Cowboys a half dozen Super Bowls. He came close once.

    QB play and scheme play just as much a role in keeping QB's upright as OL's do. That's especially been true in the last 15 years as spread concepts and up-tempo work have worked their way up from college offenses. If you do have a good OL, that's awesome, and it'll give you some options. But a good OL does not mask a QB's issues.



    It's not a myth if it's rooted in facts

    Packers - David Bakhtiari, Bryan Bulaga. T.J Lang , Jeff Saturday, Josh Sitton, Scott Wells, Chad Clifton.

    ALL of these players(except for Bulaga, who would be an instant upgrade here) were pro-bowlers and considered among the best in the league during their time with Rodgers. Currently they still have Bakhtiari and Bulaga, and recently gave up Lang and Sitton. They have always protected Rodgers well. Rodgers' sacks could more credibly be credited to him holding the ball, given the performance of his O-lines over the years

    Steelers - Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro. Recent Pro-bowlers, just among the few of good to great O-linemen the Steelers have had during Big Ben's tenure

    Eagles - Brandon Brooks (pro-bowl), Lane Johnson (pro-bowl), Jason Kelce (pretty good, pro-bowl alternate)
    Rams - Andrew Whitworth, Roger Saffold (second team All-Pro), and other solids such as Rob Havenstein

    Falcons - Alex Mack, Ryan Schraeder. Among the reasons the Falcons were ranked by PFF as 2nd best in 2017

    Patriots - Shaq Mason, David Andrews, and formerly Nate Soldier. All considered amongst the best at their position. Bill Belicheck would settle for nothing less

    Saints - Ryan Ramczyk, Max Unger.

    These are all considered amongst the top offenses in the league. And they haven't allowed the dumpster fire of O-line protection that we've come to accept as a fan base

    A great O-line alone will not lead to deep playoff runs. But having good to great O-lines and talent IS key to successful playoff runs. Dak has had a great O-line. But Dak is also not Brady, Rodgers, Brees, or Russ

    I may lean towards defending Wilson most of the time. But we're getting to a point where we're ignoring the basic and obvious as an excuse to critique him. Yes, Wilson holds onto the ball. And Yes, he is being given extremely piss poor pathetic protection. By any objective standard. So like I said before, EVERY other top Quarterback in the league are given good to great protection, with pro-bowlers and top coached talent to protect them. Which allows them to execute their offense consistently. O-line protection matters. It is not something you can neglect, or negate with "quick passes." It is something that serious teams who VALUE their Quarterback invest in. We've done a poor job of investing in Russell's growth and the gap between his O-line versus what Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Wentz, Big Ben, and Matt Ryan has is disturbing


    Saturday a probowler with the packers? what kind of weed are you smoking? you need actually watch football instead of read about it on google kid
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:23 am
  • truehawksfan wrote:I watched the 2013 NFC Championship game vs. the Niners...and the offense looks eerily similar.

    The balance was there...Beastmode ran the ball more, but was held to 27 first half yards.

    We led the league in rushing avg-137 yds/game too. But, despite our run game and Beastmode’s presence the play action was ineffective. Aldon Smith ran right thru our Oline and a younger, lighter, faster Russ was sacked 4 times...IN THE FIRST HALF.

    Russ scrambled out of the pocket many times -pressure almost immediately. 2 times he held onto the ball too long, but he converted one into a 50 yd strike to Doug Baldwin.

    And most of the passes were intermediate. He missed Kearse on a 20 yd dig route, threw a 20 out route to Baldwin, threw a 20 yd seam route to Luke Wilsson-Dropped it after a helmet hit,

    Russ also thru a 6 yd out route to Zach Miller, a bubble screen to Baldwin, and a 11 slant route to Baldwin on 3rd and 9...but
    despite a leaky Oline, and facing a fierce pass rusher -Aldon Smith- and a blitzing Navarro Bowman, the Hawks continued to call intermediate routes.

    But, here’s the difference. I mean, the NFC Championship game plan almost looked identical to the Bears. Even the score was the same...behind 10-3 at the half.

    I don’t know if the game plan will be much different vs the Cowboys....but we need to run the ball more, to balance it out because that’s the difference between winning and losing games under the Pete Carroll regime.


    But here's the huge difference.

    That Seahawk defense could be counted on to keep the score low until Wilson and co could figure it out, get lucky, etc. What was that mindblowing stat, 32043204 games where the Hawks had a lead at one point in all of them, and never lost a game by double digits?? Even Patriots and Packers couldn't boast that. Not sure any of the dynasty 49er or Cowboy teams could either.

    The rivalry was defined by the Seahawk defense having Harbaugh's offense and Kaepernick's #. That's it. There was a thread on here titled "17, 13, 13, 19" (or something like that) about how Carroll held Harbaugh's offenses to under 20 points. That was true for the entirety of the Harbaugh era (and then it became like under 10 points). Chip Kelly managed a blistering 23 points one time, but I figure that was a throwaway game. Even last year Shanahan could only muster 9 points and 6 points until the new guy came in and introduced the concept of a touchdown pass against the Seahawks.

    It never ever was about Russell Wilson while the two teams were evenly matched. It's a nice trolling point, but it ain't the truth and gets proven more over time, not less.

    If it was about Wilson's greatness, then Alex Smith is the 3rd best QB in the NFL since 2011 since he's ranked 3rd in wins.

    Bottom line is this:

    If Carroll can figure out how to recreate a top 5 defense, he will win with Wilson.

    A great RB on top of that would present a threat to go very far.

    Don't need to figure out how to make Wilson a prolific passer. Just build up the team around him.
    NINEster
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:29 am
  • The bigger issue is that the Seahawks have become predictable on offense. All 31 teams know what they are doing and have evolved to counter them. Even with a new OC the offense is still the same. Therefore even more ineffective.
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    hawkfan68
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:56 am
  • There is more pressure now on Wilson to constantly manufacture offence and the expectations of a deep passing game with little if hardly any pass protection and no effective running game to force play action respect of that run as a real option has made the O one dimensional. Fix the OLine and fix the O.

    Wilson is is most sacked QB in the NFL. I heard on Sirius that so far he being sacked every 6th offensive play. Some of it is on him but if your team can't/won't run, and he can't be protected it is impossibly unfair to blame him for the O not working.

    The team need to protect him better.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

    Super Bowl XLVIII Champions at last after 38 seasons. Awesome!!!
    jammerhawk
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:04 pm
  • hawkfan68 wrote:The bigger issue is that the Seahawks have become predictable on offense. All 31 teams know what they are doing and have evolved to counter them. Even with a new OC the offense is still the same. Therefore even more ineffective.


    Become?

    We've been predictable on offense in the entire Carroll tenure. The only thing that has made our offense unpredictable is Russell, and he's not the old Russell right now.

    I remember listening to Greg Cosell a couple years ago telling KJR that we had one of the most elementary passing offenses he's ever seen in the NFL. Doesn't look like anything's changed.
    If there is no Seahawk football in heaven, then we will never die.
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    Sgt. Largent
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:42 pm
  • hawkfan68 wrote:I believe the 2016 game against the Dolphins, in which Russell Wilson suffered a mcl injury, changed both Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson. Prior to the injury Russell was dangerous both on his feet and with his arm. There used to be plays where he would be the first option to run the ball. There’s been less of that, last season and thus far this season. Their whole offensive philosophy changed after RW got hurt. Their scoring, points per game, has dropped. They used to score over 24 pts per game but since 2016 season they have been under that.

    2015 - 26.4 pts per game
    2016 - 22.1 pts per game
    2017 - 22.9 pts per game
    2018 - 20.5 pts per game

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2015.htm


    Pete went all in on trying get his Run Game back up, went out and got Lazy, er I mean Lacey, the Run Game was still crap, also, injuries tanked the last couple seasons, and last year, Russell Wilson was the ONLY somewhat consistent ball carrier, and thus the 2017 22.9 point average.
    The Offensive Line has been the common diminishing denominator, it's still regressing.
    They got rid of Cable & Bevell, and now some fools are complaining that MAYBE it's Wilson that is the root problem?
    Some fools are expecting Russell Wilson to fix the entire Offensive woes, or traded away to save money?!? LOLOLOL
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    scutterhawk
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Re: 2015 Our Offense - what changed?
Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:35 am
  • In 2015 Wilson went on one of the best six game runs of all time.

    The rest of 2015 is like the rest of his career.

    If you treat that six game run as the baseline, you'll always be disappointed.You might as well treat his worst six game run (which is pretty bad) as the baseline and spend every week being surprised about how good he is.

    There was nothing special about those six games beyond it being a good high variance player playing what is ultimately a high variance game.

    In their careers practically every really good player (and even across sports too) will have one mind bending tear like that across a small sample of games.
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    Popeyejones
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