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Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers

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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:54 am
  • Def. has not lost a step. Not pounding the rock and making him stay in the pocket is like clapping with one hand. It's useless.
    R.I.P. THE EDGAR, YOU WILL BE MISSED......
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    SoulfishHawk
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:18 am
  • JimmyG wrote:
    Fade wrote:See Jared Goff with Jeff Fisher. Now see Jared Goff with Sean McVay. Coaching is everything.

    Look at franchise QBs around the league, and you will find that they have a great offensive mind either at Head Coach, or Offensive Coordinator to elevate their play, to give them a great scheme that extenuates their strengths.

    Pete is running a dated offense Jeff Fisher style, he even brought in Schottenheimer from the Rams to perfect it. What a disaster.


    Tribisky is a dumpster fire at QB, but the play design, and scheme he was in was far more modern, and designed to take advantage of Wilson's strengths. Much better than what Wilson had to deal with tonight in his own scheme. Tribisky just cannot throw accurately he missed open recievers all night. Every ball Wilson threw was in a tight window, with blanketed receivers.


    Rank Seattle's Offensive Scheme among the other 32 teams.
    Rank Seattle's Weapons among the other 32 teams.
    Rank the Offensive Line among the other 32 teams.

    Now contrast those rankings with Rodgers, Brees, & Brady. You will quickly come to the conclusion. Wilson gets the short end of the stick in all categories.


    What I find so baffling is why people are so pissed at Wilson, when it is Carroll who has been in charge of this mess for 5 years. That is a half a decade of getting worse every year. How many more years do people need to realize Pete lost the plot a long time ago.

    Trading Wilson won't make the team better, it will make them even worse. There is nowhere to go but down at QB.... but
    They could significantly get better @ scheming, OL, & Skill players. That is where the team could make the biggest leap.

    It won't happen though until Pete is gone. Pete is not going to catch lightning in a bottle twice, and hit on a bunch of amazing players in the draft in a 3 year period. Nope. They are going to have to build it the old-fashioned way around a franchise QB, Pete Carroll doesn't know how. He knows defense. He doesn't know offense.

    See Jared Goff with Jeff Fisher. Now see Jared Goff with Sean McVay. Coaching is everything.

    See Matt Ryan with Kyle Shanahan. Now see Matt Ryan with Sark. Coaching is everything.

    Coaching is not everything. What coaching is is a convenient scapegoat to deflect blame from players. Players need to execute. If they don't execute, nothing else matters.

    You're just cherry-picking examples. I can do that too. Everyone here hates Darrel Bevell. He is universally regarded as terrible (now I'm seeing -- predictably -- comments like, "Schotty is equal to, if not worse than Bevell"). I could say, "did you know that in 2009, Brett Favre put up arguably the best year of his career [33 TD, 7 INT, 107.2 passer rating, 7.9 Y/A] under a Darrell Bevell offense?"

    Or, you cite the 2016 Falcons. Yes, they were an offensive juggernaut. You're right. Matt Ryan had career highs in many categories, and had an explosive year overall (38 TD, 7 INT, 117.1 passer rating, 7.7 Y/A). Here's what you left out: Kyle Shanahan was the coordinator in 2015 too, and the Ryan and the Falcons were very pedestrian.
    Ryan, 2015 (Kyle Shanahan): 21 TD, 16 INT, 89.0 passer rating, 7.4 Y/A (21.2 PPG - T21st in the NFL)
    Ryan, 2017 (Steve Sarkisian): 20 TD, 12 INT, 91.4 passer rating, 7.7 Y/A (22.1 PPG - 15th in the NFL)

    Alex Smith "broke out" in 2011, and transformed into a pretty good QB. This was under Jim Harbaugh/Greg Roman, who -- like Pete et al. -- were regarded as dinosaurs that failed to evolve. Then, he got traded to Kansas City, and got to play underneath Andy Reid, a very creative offensive playcaller. Here's a comparison of his numbers:
    Smith, 2011-2012 (SF, "old school" scheme): 64.3 CMP%, 4.5 TD%, 1.5%, 95.1 passer rating
    Smith, 2013-2017 (KC, innovative mind in Andy Reid): 65.1 CMP%, 4.2 TD%, 1.4%, 94.8 passer rating

    Andy Dalton had the best year of his career (25 TD, 7 INT, 106.3 passer rating) under Hue Jackson. Meanwhile, Colin Kaepernick continued to look a lot like... Colin Kaepernick, even after being paired with one of the most creative offensive minds in Chip Kelly. I could go on and on.

    I do believe that coaching and scheme matters. However, execution is equally as important. This is where fans start to lose objectivity. Any time a play, or drive, fails, they immediately blame the coaches. You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your quarterback is gunshy or starts abandoning clean pockets, it does not matter. Wilson is one of the hardest players in the league to coach because of how often he goes off-script. A scheme can get players open, but if your QB isn't making the reads or the throws, it doesn't matter.

    The other area where fans are misguided is this eternally hopeful mindset that a player is going to continue to improve, and that his deficiencies are going to disappear. Eventually players plateau, and you accept they are who they are. If players always got better and improved, you wouldn't see guys like Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Matt Stafford and such peak at good-but-not-great players. I'm not saying Wilson is Joe Flacco-level, I'm just saying that all QBs have flaws, and often times they are just inherent to who a player is. No amount of coaching is going to make them magically disappear. Wilson is also 30 in a couple months. I'm not holding my breath that this guy is going to continue to improve as his speed and lightning-quick evasion starts to wane -- he needs that to compensate for his height.

    For some fans, Wilson never gets the blame. It's always someone else's fault. It's his weapons. It's his line. It's Bevell. It's Schotty. It's Pete. You know, in spite of all of these external factors, there's one constant here... Wilson himself.



    Wow, at least try to hide your agenda

    Saying a coach is only a scapegoat is a low football knowledge sentiment to express. Coaches matter, players matter. The discussion is who's to blame more. Most NFL experts are saying that Russell, who is better than Goff and Trubitsky, is not being given a lot to work with. Your counter points are even weaker

    Chip Kelly's "innovative offense" only succeeded for one year. It failed...which is why he was fired from both the Eagles AND the Niners. Kaepernick is not great, but neither is Case Keenum or several other bottom tier QBs. A better coach would have gotten more out of him.

    With the Niners, Mike Singletary got blamed for Alex Smith's failures. Smith basically looked like Geno Smith for years..actually worse. Jim Harbaugh came in and every NFL analyst praised the fact that because Harbaugh himself was a QB, he was able to get more out of Smith. Alex Smith did a COMPLETE 180 and played like a competent QB. Ditto for his time with Andy Reid. And by the way, Andy Reid has gotten the best out of every QB he's worked with.

    So, so far your Harbaugh/Andy Reid comparison didn't make sense given Mike Singletary, and your Chip Kelly point didn't make sense. What's next?

    Hue Jackson? He's a really good offensive mind who got the best out of Andy Dalton. I would love it if he was Wilson's Offensive Coordinator. Kyle Shanahan? He had some success with RG3, and he had success with Matt Ryan. He doesn't have a long history of failure like Schotty. Also, in 2015, the offense wasn't "terrible." They started out 5-0. Oh, and it was Dan Quinn's FIRST year as head coach They were still working out kinks, still working on the defense, which kept struggling. And still figuring out the running game. Poor comparison

    Brett Favre is Brett Favre. He had Adrian Peterson in his prime, and guess who else? Dun Dun Dunnnnnnn....Brad Childress. Who came from under the Andy Reid tree. Bevell was running Childress' system, the same system they ran in Philly with McNabb. Know your football history bud. Bevell had ONE good year in a system that wasn't really his, and one with Russell. Shanahan, McVay, and others have had more successful seasons with less time and arguably less talented Quarterbacks

    Execution matters but not if that coach is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Coaches get fired for a reason. The film doesn't lie, so instead of simply itching to blame Russell at all costs, try being objective. Russ deserves some blame, but he's not being given much margin for error. He's expected to save everything, pressure in his face and coverage downfield be damned. By any objective metric, the film shows that Bevell and Schotty are failures. And they've NEVER had a consistent track record of success
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:23 am
  • Scorpion05 wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:
    Fade wrote:See Jared Goff with Jeff Fisher. Now see Jared Goff with Sean McVay. Coaching is everything.

    Look at franchise QBs around the league, and you will find that they have a great offensive mind either at Head Coach, or Offensive Coordinator to elevate their play, to give them a great scheme that extenuates their strengths.

    Pete is running a dated offense Jeff Fisher style, he even brought in Schottenheimer from the Rams to perfect it. What a disaster.


    Tribisky is a dumpster fire at QB, but the play design, and scheme he was in was far more modern, and designed to take advantage of Wilson's strengths. Much better than what Wilson had to deal with tonight in his own scheme. Tribisky just cannot throw accurately he missed open recievers all night. Every ball Wilson threw was in a tight window, with blanketed receivers.


    Rank Seattle's Offensive Scheme among the other 32 teams.
    Rank Seattle's Weapons among the other 32 teams.
    Rank the Offensive Line among the other 32 teams.

    Now contrast those rankings with Rodgers, Brees, & Brady. You will quickly come to the conclusion. Wilson gets the short end of the stick in all categories.


    What I find so baffling is why people are so pissed at Wilson, when it is Carroll who has been in charge of this mess for 5 years. That is a half a decade of getting worse every year. How many more years do people need to realize Pete lost the plot a long time ago.

    Trading Wilson won't make the team better, it will make them even worse. There is nowhere to go but down at QB.... but
    They could significantly get better @ scheming, OL, & Skill players. That is where the team could make the biggest leap.

    It won't happen though until Pete is gone. Pete is not going to catch lightning in a bottle twice, and hit on a bunch of amazing players in the draft in a 3 year period. Nope. They are going to have to build it the old-fashioned way around a franchise QB, Pete Carroll doesn't know how. He knows defense. He doesn't know offense.

    See Jared Goff with Jeff Fisher. Now see Jared Goff with Sean McVay. Coaching is everything.

    See Matt Ryan with Kyle Shanahan. Now see Matt Ryan with Sark. Coaching is everything.

    Coaching is not everything. What coaching is is a convenient scapegoat to deflect blame from players. Players need to execute. If they don't execute, nothing else matters.

    You're just cherry-picking examples. I can do that too. Everyone here hates Darrel Bevell. He is universally regarded as terrible (now I'm seeing -- predictably -- comments like, "Schotty is equal to, if not worse than Bevell"). I could say, "did you know that in 2009, Brett Favre put up arguably the best year of his career [33 TD, 7 INT, 107.2 passer rating, 7.9 Y/A] under a Darrell Bevell offense?"

    Or, you cite the 2016 Falcons. Yes, they were an offensive juggernaut. You're right. Matt Ryan had career highs in many categories, and had an explosive year overall (38 TD, 7 INT, 117.1 passer rating, 7.7 Y/A). Here's what you left out: Kyle Shanahan was the coordinator in 2015 too, and the Ryan and the Falcons were very pedestrian.
    Ryan, 2015 (Kyle Shanahan): 21 TD, 16 INT, 89.0 passer rating, 7.4 Y/A (21.2 PPG - T21st in the NFL)
    Ryan, 2017 (Steve Sarkisian): 20 TD, 12 INT, 91.4 passer rating, 7.7 Y/A (22.1 PPG - 15th in the NFL)

    Alex Smith "broke out" in 2011, and transformed into a pretty good QB. This was under Jim Harbaugh/Greg Roman, who -- like Pete et al. -- were regarded as dinosaurs that failed to evolve. Then, he got traded to Kansas City, and got to play underneath Andy Reid, a very creative offensive playcaller. Here's a comparison of his numbers:
    Smith, 2011-2012 (SF, "old school" scheme): 64.3 CMP%, 4.5 TD%, 1.5%, 95.1 passer rating
    Smith, 2013-2017 (KC, innovative mind in Andy Reid): 65.1 CMP%, 4.2 TD%, 1.4%, 94.8 passer rating

    Andy Dalton had the best year of his career (25 TD, 7 INT, 106.3 passer rating) under Hue Jackson. Meanwhile, Colin Kaepernick continued to look a lot like... Colin Kaepernick, even after being paired with one of the most creative offensive minds in Chip Kelly. I could go on and on.

    I do believe that coaching and scheme matters. However, execution is equally as important. This is where fans start to lose objectivity. Any time a play, or drive, fails, they immediately blame the coaches. You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your quarterback is gunshy or starts abandoning clean pockets, it does not matter. Wilson is one of the hardest players in the league to coach because of how often he goes off-script. A scheme can get players open, but if your QB isn't making the reads or the throws, it doesn't matter.

    The other area where fans are misguided is this eternally hopeful mindset that a player is going to continue to improve, and that his deficiencies are going to disappear. Eventually players plateau, and you accept they are who they are. If players always got better and improved, you wouldn't see guys like Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Matt Stafford and such peak at good-but-not-great players. I'm not saying Wilson is Joe Flacco-level, I'm just saying that all QBs have flaws, and often times they are just inherent to who a player is. No amount of coaching is going to make them magically disappear. Wilson is also 30 in a couple months. I'm not holding my breath that this guy is going to continue to improve as his speed and lightning-quick evasion starts to wane -- he needs that to compensate for his height.

    For some fans, Wilson never gets the blame. It's always someone else's fault. It's his weapons. It's his line. It's Bevell. It's Schotty. It's Pete. You know, in spite of all of these external factors, there's one constant here... Wilson himself.



    Wow, at least try to hide your agenda

    Saying a coach is only a scapegoat is a low football knowledge sentiment to express. Coaches matter, players matter. The discussion is who's to blame more. Most NFL experts are saying that Russell, who is better than Goff and Trubitsky, is not being given a lot to work with. Your counter points are even weaker

    Chip Kelly's "innovative offense" only succeeded for one year. It failed...which is why he was fired from both the Eagles AND the Niners. Kaepernick is not great, but neither is Case Keenum or several other bottom tier QBs. A better coach would have gotten more out of him.

    With the Niners, Mike Singletary got blamed for Alex Smith's failures. Smith basically looked like Geno Smith for years..actually worse. Jim Harbaugh came in and every NFL analyst praised the fact that because Harbaugh himself was a QB, he was able to get more out of Smith. Alex Smith did a COMPLETE 180 and played like a competent QB. Ditto for his time with Andy Reid. And by the way, Andy Reid has gotten the best out of every QB he's worked with.

    So, so far your Harbaugh/Andy Reid comparison didn't make sense given Mike Singletary, and your Chip Kelly point didn't make sense. What's next?

    Hue Jackson? He's a really good offensive mind who got the best out of Andy Dalton. I would love it if he was Wilson's Offensive Coordinator. Kyle Shanahan? He had some success with RG3, and he had success with Matt Ryan. He doesn't have a long history of failure like Schotty. Also, in 2015, the offense wasn't "terrible." They started out 5-0. Oh, and it was Dan Quinn's FIRST year as head coach They were still working out kinks, still working on the defense, which kept struggling. And still figuring out the running game. Poor comparison

    Brett Favre is Brett Favre. He had Adrian Peterson in his prime, and guess who else? Dun Dun Dunnnnnnn....Brad Childress. Who came from under the Andy Reid tree. Bevell was running Childress' system, the same system they ran in Philly with McNabb. Know your football history bud. Bevell had ONE good year in a system that wasn't really his, and one with Russell. Shanahan, McVay, and others have had more successful seasons with less time and arguably less talented Quarterbacks

    Execution matters but not if that coach is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Coaches get fired for a reason. The film doesn't lie, so instead of simply itching to blame Russell at all costs, try being objective. Russ deserves some blame, but he's not being given much margin for error. He's expected to save everything, pressure in his face and coverage downfield be damned. By any objective metric, the film shows that Bevell and Schotty are failures. And they've NEVER had a consistent track record of success


    To JimmyG, I bet it makes more sense to him that Matt Ryan is bigger problem and always has been for the Falcons offense than also ran Steve Sarkesian becoming OC there.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:24 am
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Def. has not lost a step. Not pounding the rock and making him stay in the pocket is like clapping with one hand. It's useless.


    I see a lost step.

    Wilson is not escaping the pocket or eluding defenders with the frequency he used to. He's just not.

    What happened to the read option? What happened to the scripted Russell run plays? I'll tell you, they won't work anymore...................because...............wait for it..............he's lost a step.

    I mean, hell just call a couple read options per half if for nothing else to keep edge rushers like Mack and Miller honest with their containment assignments.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:26 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Def. has not lost a step. Not pounding the rock and making him stay in the pocket is like clapping with one hand. It's useless.


    I see a lost step.

    Wilson is not escaping the pocket or eluding defenders with the frequency he used to. He's just not.

    What happened to the read option? What happened to the scripted Russell run plays? I'll tell you, they won't work anymore...................because...............wait for it..............he's lost a step.

    I mean, hell just call a couple read options per half if for nothing else to keep edge rushers like Mack and Miller honest with their containment assignments.


    They aren't calling those plays. It's not Wilson's fault. Do you think Wilson is a worse athlete at this point than Alex Smith (who is very athletic, yes)? Because they were running all those plays with Smith last year in KC.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:30 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Def. has not lost a step. Not pounding the rock and making him stay in the pocket is like clapping with one hand. It's useless.


    I see a lost step.

    Wilson is not escaping the pocket or eluding defenders with the frequency he used to. He's just not.

    What happened to the read option? What happened to the scripted Russell run plays? I'll tell you, they won't work anymore...................because...............wait for it..............he's lost a step.

    I mean, hell just call a couple read options per half if for nothing else to keep edge rushers like Mack and Miller honest with their containment assignments.


    And yet I've seen Alex Smith under Reid's offense...run the damn ball on a designed QB run play. Edit: Thank you ADeltaY!

    I mean...

    If you don't think RW can do it at all, fine, then don't call the play. Ever. But don't tell me RW can't do it because he is physically incapable of doing anything positive on it. The highest highs in value outcomes might not be there but we're just seeing the most insipid reactions here.

    And to me, I think a huge part of it is mental. RW is resisting his urge to just do the damn thing and take off. That makes him a good puppy who still craps on the carpet.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:39 am
  • adeltaY wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Def. has not lost a step. Not pounding the rock and making him stay in the pocket is like clapping with one hand. It's useless.


    I see a lost step.

    Wilson is not escaping the pocket or eluding defenders with the frequency he used to. He's just not.

    What happened to the read option? What happened to the scripted Russell run plays? I'll tell you, they won't work anymore...................because...............wait for it..............he's lost a step.

    I mean, hell just call a couple read options per half if for nothing else to keep edge rushers like Mack and Miller honest with their containment assignments.


    They aren't calling those plays. It's not Wilson's fault. Do you think Wilson is a worse athlete at this point than Alex Smith (who is very athletic, yes)? Because they were running all those plays with Smith last year in KC.


    I just said I think we still need to try designed Russell run plays, either read options, RPO's or designed draws.

    But I was disputing Soulfish and others who think Russell is still as fast and quick as he used to be. Because so far this year, I haven't seen the same burst out of the pocket or the eluding of defenders that we're used to seeing out of Russell.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:41 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    I see a lost step.

    Wilson is not escaping the pocket or eluding defenders with the frequency he used to. He's just not.

    What happened to the read option? What happened to the scripted Russell run plays? I'll tell you, they won't work anymore...................because...............wait for it..............he's lost a step.

    I mean, hell just call a couple read options per half if for nothing else to keep edge rushers like Mack and Miller honest with their containment assignments.


    Wait, you said those plays won't work because he lost a step? Am I misreading your post?
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:47 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Def. has not lost a step. Not pounding the rock and making him stay in the pocket is like clapping with one hand. It's useless.


    I see a lost step.

    Wilson is not escaping the pocket or eluding defenders with the frequency he used to. He's just not.

    What happened to the read option? What happened to the scripted Russell run plays? I'll tell you, they won't work anymore...................because...............wait for it..............he's lost a step.

    I mean, hell just call a couple read options per half if for nothing else to keep edge rushers like Mack and Miller honest with their containment assignments.


    Of course he isn't!!!

    Can you see the look on his face of frustration???

    He's been ordered to stay in the pocket longer, and he is and it's not working!!...he's getting crushed trying. :roll:
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:09 am
  • They are trying to make him do something they shouldn't, it makes absolutely no sense. Stay in the pocket where there is no blocking or separation by the receivers. Yeah, that makes sense.
    Shotty and his play calling has been as bad or worse than Bevell. Yes, I said that. :pukeface:
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:16 am
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:They are trying to make him do something they shouldn't, it makes absolutely no sense. Stay in the pocket where there is no blocking or separation by the receivers. Yeah, that makes sense.
    Shotty and his play calling has been as bad or worse than Bevell. Yes, I said that. :pukeface:


    Then people try to blame Wilson for everything....so old! :pukeface: No...he's not doing well...the question is why? Answer seems obvious to me. Wilson is now even trying to audible out of plays and getting reamed for it now.

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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:17 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    He's been ordered to stay in the pocket longer, and he is and it's not working!!...he's getting crushed trying. :roll:


    But that's the conundrum with Russell as he ages. Do you still try to run him with designed roll outs, read option, draws plays, etc and risk injury and the diminished effectiveness as he ages and gets slower.

    Or do you do what it's VERY evident that Pete and Schottenheimer are trying to do, install a more traditional pocket passing offense that doesn't cater to what Russell does best (run around and make plays with his legs).

    That's my entire point on the "do we give Russell another massive contract" discussion. Can he age, become slower and still be a top 10 QB having to pass from the pocket most of the time?

    I say no, especially with the garbage we're surrounding him with.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:18 am
  • He's a guy who gets very hot, seems obvious that they should let him run things a little more.
    Not only does he get too much blame, he seems to often not get credit. Very odd
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:20 am
  • I can't remember as I'm typing this if it was Largent or now but where are the RPO's? Read options? We seem to fail at utilizing his strengths and attempt to fit him into Pete's vision of an outdated offense. Andy Reid would have a field day with Wilson if he coached him.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:20 am
  • Sports Hernia wrote:
    King Dog wrote:I don't want to pay this guy.

    Luckily you won’t be making that choice. Put an competent offensive line around him and you’ll get different results.

    ....and don’t get me wrong Russ played like pure crap tonight, no excuses.
    He reminded me of QB that played in Auburn a couple of weeks ago, he was that bad tonight!


    Nonsense. You can't blame the OL for everything. RW holds the ball way too long. The gameplan last night should have been to come out with quick strike 3 step drop passes. But since RW is extremely inconsistent in this he takes a lot of sacks. Even when he has time, he runs into trouble, sometimes by his uncertainty (the Fumble).


    RW needs to play better period.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:21 am
  • ? You're complaining that he's doing what they are telling him to do? All while nobody seems to be getting any separation to help him out?? Um........ok
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:30 am
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:? You're complaining that he's doing what they are telling him to do? All while nobody seems to be getting any separation to help him out?? Um........ok


    We don't know if this is the case. We don't know if no one was open or if he was missing guys. Have to wait for someone to analyze the All 22.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:34 am
  • RECENT GAMESMORE
    WK OPP RESULT Passing Rushing Fumbles
    Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
    1 @DEN L 24-27 19 33 57.6 298 9.0 3 2 6 56 92.7 2 5 2.5 0 2 0
    2 @CHI L 17-24 22 36 61.1 226 6.3 2 1 6 24 86.1 3 17 5.7 0 2 1

    Those 3 picks and 4 fumbles are on all on Russ. We can give him half those 12 sacks too.

    Seattle receivers haven't dropped a single pass this season. And passes like Lockett's TD would be picks if the WR didn't sell/hide/win it.

    We continue to have success running the ball with Chris Carson (5.8 ypc) and then don't run it. (2:1 pass/run ratio the first two games.)

    So:
    1) We have a running game, but just don't use it.
    2) Even without Baldwin, our receivers are getting the job done.
    3) Russ' decision making is costing us games.

    That said, it just looks to me like he is not in command of this offense. From week 1 to 2 I can see he's trying to stay in the pocket more and get the ball out quicker, but he doesn't know where to go with it yet.

    Until he gains that command, I'd run the ball 2:1 over pass to take the pressure off him and develop the physical identity this team has lost. As the season wears on, Russ' comfort with the offense will improve and we may be able to put together a string of decent ball games to close the season. Right now, I see either Russ getting hurt or the coaches losing the team with this say one thing and do another offense.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:40 am
  • jlwaters1 wrote:
    Sports Hernia wrote:
    King Dog wrote:I don't want to pay this guy.

    Luckily you won’t be making that choice. Put an competent offensive line around him and you’ll get different results.

    ....and don’t get me wrong Russ played like pure crap tonight, no excuses.
    He reminded me of QB that played in Auburn a couple of weeks ago, he was that bad tonight!


    Nonsense. You can't blame the OL for everything. RW holds the ball way too long. The gameplan last night should have been to come out with quick strike 3 step drop passes. But since RW is extremely inconsistent in this he takes a lot of sacks. Even when he has time, he runs into trouble, sometimes by his uncertainty (the Fumble).


    RW needs to play better period.


    This isn't a single player video game where you can grind hours away trying to improve and go through slumps without anyone being the wiser. RW needs to play better - how do you propose he does that?
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:43 am
  • austinslater25 wrote:I can't remember as I'm typing this if it was Largent or now but where are the RPO's? Read options? We seem to fail at utilizing his strengths and attempt to fit him into Pete's vision of an outdated offense. Andy Reid would have a field day with Wilson if he coached him.


    A lot of coaches would............unfortunately our coach is a dinosaur that's clinging to an antiquated style of offense that no longer is successful in this pass happy flag football league, and more importantly has been downright terrible drafting and acquiring players to surround his QB to help him be successful.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:43 am
  • Scorpion05 wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:
    Fade wrote:See Jared Goff with Jeff Fisher. Now see Jared Goff with Sean McVay. Coaching is everything.

    Look at franchise QBs around the league, and you will find that they have a great offensive mind either at Head Coach, or Offensive Coordinator to elevate their play, to give them a great scheme that extenuates their strengths.

    Pete is running a dated offense Jeff Fisher style, he even brought in Schottenheimer from the Rams to perfect it. What a disaster.


    Tribisky is a dumpster fire at QB, but the play design, and scheme he was in was far more modern, and designed to take advantage of Wilson's strengths. Much better than what Wilson had to deal with tonight in his own scheme. Tribisky just cannot throw accurately he missed open recievers all night. Every ball Wilson threw was in a tight window, with blanketed receivers.


    Rank Seattle's Offensive Scheme among the other 32 teams.
    Rank Seattle's Weapons among the other 32 teams.
    Rank the Offensive Line among the other 32 teams.

    Now contrast those rankings with Rodgers, Brees, & Brady. You will quickly come to the conclusion. Wilson gets the short end of the stick in all categories.


    What I find so baffling is why people are so pissed at Wilson, when it is Carroll who has been in charge of this mess for 5 years. That is a half a decade of getting worse every year. How many more years do people need to realize Pete lost the plot a long time ago.

    Trading Wilson won't make the team better, it will make them even worse. There is nowhere to go but down at QB.... but
    They could significantly get better @ scheming, OL, & Skill players. That is where the team could make the biggest leap.

    It won't happen though until Pete is gone. Pete is not going to catch lightning in a bottle twice, and hit on a bunch of amazing players in the draft in a 3 year period. Nope. They are going to have to build it the old-fashioned way around a franchise QB, Pete Carroll doesn't know how. He knows defense. He doesn't know offense.

    See Jared Goff with Jeff Fisher. Now see Jared Goff with Sean McVay. Coaching is everything.

    See Matt Ryan with Kyle Shanahan. Now see Matt Ryan with Sark. Coaching is everything.

    Coaching is not everything. What coaching is is a convenient scapegoat to deflect blame from players. Players need to execute. If they don't execute, nothing else matters.

    You're just cherry-picking examples. I can do that too. Everyone here hates Darrel Bevell. He is universally regarded as terrible (now I'm seeing -- predictably -- comments like, "Schotty is equal to, if not worse than Bevell"). I could say, "did you know that in 2009, Brett Favre put up arguably the best year of his career [33 TD, 7 INT, 107.2 passer rating, 7.9 Y/A] under a Darrell Bevell offense?"

    Or, you cite the 2016 Falcons. Yes, they were an offensive juggernaut. You're right. Matt Ryan had career highs in many categories, and had an explosive year overall (38 TD, 7 INT, 117.1 passer rating, 7.7 Y/A). Here's what you left out: Kyle Shanahan was the coordinator in 2015 too, and the Ryan and the Falcons were very pedestrian.
    Ryan, 2015 (Kyle Shanahan): 21 TD, 16 INT, 89.0 passer rating, 7.4 Y/A (21.2 PPG - T21st in the NFL)
    Ryan, 2017 (Steve Sarkisian): 20 TD, 12 INT, 91.4 passer rating, 7.7 Y/A (22.1 PPG - 15th in the NFL)

    Alex Smith "broke out" in 2011, and transformed into a pretty good QB. This was under Jim Harbaugh/Greg Roman, who -- like Pete et al. -- were regarded as dinosaurs that failed to evolve. Then, he got traded to Kansas City, and got to play underneath Andy Reid, a very creative offensive playcaller. Here's a comparison of his numbers:
    Smith, 2011-2012 (SF, "old school" scheme): 64.3 CMP%, 4.5 TD%, 1.5%, 95.1 passer rating
    Smith, 2013-2017 (KC, innovative mind in Andy Reid): 65.1 CMP%, 4.2 TD%, 1.4%, 94.8 passer rating

    Andy Dalton had the best year of his career (25 TD, 7 INT, 106.3 passer rating) under Hue Jackson. Meanwhile, Colin Kaepernick continued to look a lot like... Colin Kaepernick, even after being paired with one of the most creative offensive minds in Chip Kelly. I could go on and on.

    I do believe that coaching and scheme matters. However, execution is equally as important. This is where fans start to lose objectivity. Any time a play, or drive, fails, they immediately blame the coaches. You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your quarterback is gunshy or starts abandoning clean pockets, it does not matter. Wilson is one of the hardest players in the league to coach because of how often he goes off-script. A scheme can get players open, but if your QB isn't making the reads or the throws, it doesn't matter.

    The other area where fans are misguided is this eternally hopeful mindset that a player is going to continue to improve, and that his deficiencies are going to disappear. Eventually players plateau, and you accept they are who they are. If players always got better and improved, you wouldn't see guys like Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Matt Stafford and such peak at good-but-not-great players. I'm not saying Wilson is Joe Flacco-level, I'm just saying that all QBs have flaws, and often times they are just inherent to who a player is. No amount of coaching is going to make them magically disappear. Wilson is also 30 in a couple months. I'm not holding my breath that this guy is going to continue to improve as his speed and lightning-quick evasion starts to wane -- he needs that to compensate for his height.

    For some fans, Wilson never gets the blame. It's always someone else's fault. It's his weapons. It's his line. It's Bevell. It's Schotty. It's Pete. You know, in spite of all of these external factors, there's one constant here... Wilson himself.



    Wow, at least try to hide your agenda

    Saying a coach is only a scapegoat is a low football knowledge sentiment to express. Coaches matter, players matter. The discussion is who's to blame more. Most NFL experts are saying that Russell, who is better than Goff and Trubitsky, is not being given a lot to work with. Your counter points are even weaker

    Chip Kelly's "innovative offense" only succeeded for one year. It failed...which is why he was fired from both the Eagles AND the Niners. Kaepernick is not great, but neither is Case Keenum or several other bottom tier QBs. A better coach would have gotten more out of him.

    With the Niners, Mike Singletary got blamed for Alex Smith's failures. Smith basically looked like Geno Smith for years..actually worse. Jim Harbaugh came in and every NFL analyst praised the fact that because Harbaugh himself was a QB, he was able to get more out of Smith. Alex Smith did a COMPLETE 180 and played like a competent QB. Ditto for his time with Andy Reid. And by the way, Andy Reid has gotten the best out of every QB he's worked with.

    So, so far your Harbaugh/Andy Reid comparison didn't make sense given Mike Singletary, and your Chip Kelly point didn't make sense. What's next?

    Hue Jackson? He's a really good offensive mind who got the best out of Andy Dalton. I would love it if he was Wilson's Offensive Coordinator. Kyle Shanahan? He had some success with RG3, and he had success with Matt Ryan. He doesn't have a long history of failure like Schotty. Also, in 2015, the offense wasn't "terrible." They started out 5-0. Oh, and it was Dan Quinn's FIRST year as head coach They were still working out kinks, still working on the defense, which kept struggling. And still figuring out the running game. Poor comparison

    Brett Favre is Brett Favre. He had Adrian Peterson in his prime, and guess who else? Dun Dun Dunnnnnnn....Brad Childress. Who came from under the Andy Reid tree. Bevell was running Childress' system, the same system they ran in Philly with McNabb. Know your football history bud. Bevell had ONE good year in a system that wasn't really his, and one with Russell. Shanahan, McVay, and others have had more successful seasons with less time and arguably less talented Quarterbacks

    Execution matters but not if that coach is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Coaches get fired for a reason. The film doesn't lie, so instead of simply itching to blame Russell at all costs, try being objective. Russ deserves some blame, but he's not being given much margin for error. He's expected to save everything, pressure in his face and coverage downfield be damned. By any objective metric, the film shows that Bevell and Schotty are failures. And they've NEVER had a consistent track record of success

    I am the one with an "agenda", says the guy who responds with 7 paragraphs worth of mindless drivel and mental gymnastics about how my comparisons "don't count". Even better, you respond with completely hollow commentary like "the film shows that Bevell and Schotty are failures". That's the ace-in-the-hole argument for the ignorant fan. You have no idea what you're talking about. The only only thing the tape "objectively" shows is that our FQB has the pocket presence of a D2 college football player.

    For example, I cite how Alex Smith turned it around when Harbaugh came around. Remember, 49ers fans HATED Harbaugh (and Roman) because of how draconian their offense was (similar to the way we hate Pete/Bevell). Then, after going to an innovative and modern playcaller in Andy Reid his numbers... well, they pretty much stayed the same. My point is that Alex in an "old school" offense and Alex in a creative offense was largely the same player. Just like Russell Wilson in our "terrible" Bevell/Carroll offense was historically efficient to start his career. A truly great player will succeed in any scheme.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:56 am
  • JimmyG wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:
    Fade wrote:See Jared Goff with Jeff Fisher. Now see Jared Goff with Sean McVay. Coaching is everything.

    Look at franchise QBs around the league, and you will find that they have a great offensive mind either at Head Coach, or Offensive Coordinator to elevate their play, to give them a great scheme that extenuates their strengths.

    Pete is running a dated offense Jeff Fisher style, he even brought in Schottenheimer from the Rams to perfect it. What a disaster.


    Tribisky is a dumpster fire at QB, but the play design, and scheme he was in was far more modern, and designed to take advantage of Wilson's strengths. Much better than what Wilson had to deal with tonight in his own scheme. Tribisky just cannot throw accurately he missed open recievers all night. Every ball Wilson threw was in a tight window, with blanketed receivers.


    Rank Seattle's Offensive Scheme among the other 32 teams.
    Rank Seattle's Weapons among the other 32 teams.
    Rank the Offensive Line among the other 32 teams.

    Now contrast those rankings with Rodgers, Brees, & Brady. You will quickly come to the conclusion. Wilson gets the short end of the stick in all categories.


    What I find so baffling is why people are so pissed at Wilson, when it is Carroll who has been in charge of this mess for 5 years. That is a half a decade of getting worse every year. How many more years do people need to realize Pete lost the plot a long time ago.

    Trading Wilson won't make the team better, it will make them even worse. There is nowhere to go but down at QB.... but
    They could significantly get better @ scheming, OL, & Skill players. That is where the team could make the biggest leap.

    It won't happen though until Pete is gone. Pete is not going to catch lightning in a bottle twice, and hit on a bunch of amazing players in the draft in a 3 year period. Nope. They are going to have to build it the old-fashioned way around a franchise QB, Pete Carroll doesn't know how. He knows defense. He doesn't know offense.

    See Jared Goff with Jeff Fisher. Now see Jared Goff with Sean McVay. Coaching is everything.

    See Matt Ryan with Kyle Shanahan. Now see Matt Ryan with Sark. Coaching is everything.

    Coaching is not everything. What coaching is is a convenient scapegoat to deflect blame from players. Players need to execute. If they don't execute, nothing else matters.

    You're just cherry-picking examples. I can do that too. Everyone here hates Darrel Bevell. He is universally regarded as terrible (now I'm seeing -- predictably -- comments like, "Schotty is equal to, if not worse than Bevell"). I could say, "did you know that in 2009, Brett Favre put up arguably the best year of his career [33 TD, 7 INT, 107.2 passer rating, 7.9 Y/A] under a Darrell Bevell offense?"

    Or, you cite the 2016 Falcons. Yes, they were an offensive juggernaut. You're right. Matt Ryan had career highs in many categories, and had an explosive year overall (38 TD, 7 INT, 117.1 passer rating, 7.7 Y/A). Here's what you left out: Kyle Shanahan was the coordinator in 2015 too, and the Ryan and the Falcons were very pedestrian.
    Ryan, 2015 (Kyle Shanahan): 21 TD, 16 INT, 89.0 passer rating, 7.4 Y/A (21.2 PPG - T21st in the NFL)
    Ryan, 2017 (Steve Sarkisian): 20 TD, 12 INT, 91.4 passer rating, 7.7 Y/A (22.1 PPG - 15th in the NFL)

    Alex Smith "broke out" in 2011, and transformed into a pretty good QB. This was under Jim Harbaugh/Greg Roman, who -- like Pete et al. -- were regarded as dinosaurs that failed to evolve. Then, he got traded to Kansas City, and got to play underneath Andy Reid, a very creative offensive playcaller. Here's a comparison of his numbers:
    Smith, 2011-2012 (SF, "old school" scheme): 64.3 CMP%, 4.5 TD%, 1.5%, 95.1 passer rating
    Smith, 2013-2017 (KC, innovative mind in Andy Reid): 65.1 CMP%, 4.2 TD%, 1.4%, 94.8 passer rating

    Andy Dalton had the best year of his career (25 TD, 7 INT, 106.3 passer rating) under Hue Jackson. Meanwhile, Colin Kaepernick continued to look a lot like... Colin Kaepernick, even after being paired with one of the most creative offensive minds in Chip Kelly. I could go on and on.

    I do believe that coaching and scheme matters. However, execution is equally as important. This is where fans start to lose objectivity. Any time a play, or drive, fails, they immediately blame the coaches. You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your quarterback is gunshy or starts abandoning clean pockets, it does not matter. Wilson is one of the hardest players in the league to coach because of how often he goes off-script. A scheme can get players open, but if your QB isn't making the reads or the throws, it doesn't matter.

    The other area where fans are misguided is this eternally hopeful mindset that a player is going to continue to improve, and that his deficiencies are going to disappear. Eventually players plateau, and you accept they are who they are. If players always got better and improved, you wouldn't see guys like Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Matt Stafford and such peak at good-but-not-great players. I'm not saying Wilson is Joe Flacco-level, I'm just saying that all QBs have flaws, and often times they are just inherent to who a player is. No amount of coaching is going to make them magically disappear. Wilson is also 30 in a couple months. I'm not holding my breath that this guy is going to continue to improve as his speed and lightning-quick evasion starts to wane -- he needs that to compensate for his height.

    For some fans, Wilson never gets the blame. It's always someone else's fault. It's his weapons. It's his line. It's Bevell. It's Schotty. It's Pete. You know, in spite of all of these external factors, there's one constant here... Wilson himself.



    Wow, at least try to hide your agenda

    Saying a coach is only a scapegoat is a low football knowledge sentiment to express. Coaches matter, players matter. The discussion is who's to blame more. Most NFL experts are saying that Russell, who is better than Goff and Trubitsky, is not being given a lot to work with. Your counter points are even weaker

    Chip Kelly's "innovative offense" only succeeded for one year. It failed...which is why he was fired from both the Eagles AND the Niners. Kaepernick is not great, but neither is Case Keenum or several other bottom tier QBs. A better coach would have gotten more out of him.

    With the Niners, Mike Singletary got blamed for Alex Smith's failures. Smith basically looked like Geno Smith for years..actually worse. Jim Harbaugh came in and every NFL analyst praised the fact that because Harbaugh himself was a QB, he was able to get more out of Smith. Alex Smith did a COMPLETE 180 and played like a competent QB. Ditto for his time with Andy Reid. And by the way, Andy Reid has gotten the best out of every QB he's worked with.

    So, so far your Harbaugh/Andy Reid comparison didn't make sense given Mike Singletary, and your Chip Kelly point didn't make sense. What's next?

    Hue Jackson? He's a really good offensive mind who got the best out of Andy Dalton. I would love it if he was Wilson's Offensive Coordinator. Kyle Shanahan? He had some success with RG3, and he had success with Matt Ryan. He doesn't have a long history of failure like Schotty. Also, in 2015, the offense wasn't "terrible." They started out 5-0. Oh, and it was Dan Quinn's FIRST year as head coach They were still working out kinks, still working on the defense, which kept struggling. And still figuring out the running game. Poor comparison

    Brett Favre is Brett Favre. He had Adrian Peterson in his prime, and guess who else? Dun Dun Dunnnnnnn....Brad Childress. Who came from under the Andy Reid tree. Bevell was running Childress' system, the same system they ran in Philly with McNabb. Know your football history bud. Bevell had ONE good year in a system that wasn't really his, and one with Russell. Shanahan, McVay, and others have had more successful seasons with less time and arguably less talented Quarterbacks

    Execution matters but not if that coach is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Coaches get fired for a reason. The film doesn't lie, so instead of simply itching to blame Russell at all costs, try being objective. Russ deserves some blame, but he's not being given much margin for error. He's expected to save everything, pressure in his face and coverage downfield be damned. By any objective metric, the film shows that Bevell and Schotty are failures. And they've NEVER had a consistent track record of success

    I am the one with an "agenda", says the guy who responds with 7 paragraphs worth of mindless drivel and mental gymnastics about how my comparisons "don't count". Even better, you respond with completely hollow commentary like "the film shows that Bevell and Schotty are failures". That's the ace-in-the-hole argument for the ignorant fan. You have no idea what you're talking about. The only only thing the tape "objectively" shows is that our FQB has the pocket presence of a D2 college football player.

    For example, I cite how Alex Smith turned it around when Harbaugh came around. Remember, 49ers fans HATED Harbaugh (and Roman) because of how draconian their offense was (similar to the way we hate Pete/Bevell). Then, after going to an innovative and modern playcaller in Andy Reid his numbers... well, they pretty much stayed the same. My point is that Alex in an "old school" offense and Alex in a creative offense was largely the same player. Just like Russell Wilson in our "terrible" Bevell/Carroll offense was historically efficient to start his career. A truly great player will succeed in any scheme.


    So let's move to what you would do with a player that isn't truly great. Just let them flounder until you find better? This is why I can't at all get behind the 'players just need to execute'. You seem to get that player talent has some stickiness but seemingly think that coaches are infallible in what they want to do and are only ever let down by players (players they seem to like and want and made effort to get) with inadequate talent and or sheer will power to do better. Tell me that I'm barking up the wrong tree on this.

    I don't see every other NFL team so resigned to do ineffectual things, not even from past decades but from the past OC over and over again - some yes, but not all. It doesn't seem like Pete et al even want to try anymore and you're cheering the lack of effort.
    Last edited by mrt144 on Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:57 am
  • Favorite Pizza: GO!
    R.I.P. THE EDGAR, YOU WILL BE MISSED......
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:58 am
  • Can't think of a QB that could last for awhile with the lack of support that Pete has done with RW. Oline is still a mess at times and the best skills players are lacking once again and the offense is archaic cause it worked in the 80s or something.
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Re: Wilson is not Brady or Rodgers
Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:01 am
  • How he hasn't been hurt badly is a mystery. Because man is he getting hit a lot these last couple seasons.
    R.I.P. THE EDGAR, YOU WILL BE MISSED......
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