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The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?

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The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:45 am
  • I've heard many times over the years that pre-season doesn't matter. While that is true in one sense, it is an indicator of days ahead it seems. Before Pete Carroll, there seemed to be a correlation between our pre-season results and our regular season results (i.e. loosing seasons). With Carroll I think he has said pre -eason matters and we see how players compete. It appears our first 2 pre-season games show a recurring theme of all the same things that haunted us last year. So at this point, do these games matter?

    From last night, We haven't established the running game (58 yds on 16 attempts) and we default to Wilson's arm (282 yds on 36 attempts). Penalties were much better (6 for 50), and 3rd down conversion on offense 6-13. We still have Red Zone issues and perhaps the absence of Graham will hurt us here.

    On defense we gave up 176 yds rushing and 146 yds passing. If that holds during the regular season it seems teams will be able to grind it out on the ground and wear us out.

    What we don't know yet is how good the Chargers or Colts are (or will be this season) or how good the Seahawks will be once the new coaches and players get it going. But does pre-season matter? I just don't know?
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:59 am
  • Well the Lions looked unstoppable a few years ago in Preseason and easily went 4-0. For that regular season they posted a 0-16 record. I don’t put much stock into preseason games.


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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:26 am
  • What was the hawks preseason record in 2017?


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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:30 am
  • The Browns won every pre season game last year.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:54 am
  • They don’t matter when we add up wins/loses for playoff spots.


    They sure as Hell matter for a multitude of other reasons.

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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:18 am
  • - Our first three drives we made it to the Chargers 10 yard line. All without Baldwin, Lockett, and Penny. The offense was moving. Yes the redzone issues are still a concern but I have confidence they will fix it. One drive ended on a fumble on the goal line. Another was a ball where if Wilson just led Vannett a little more we convert that TD pass. Russ knew it as soon as he threw it. Good learning experience

    - The Chargers scored a punt return off the punter who will not be on the team this year. Dickson wouldn’t have allowed the Chargers to get set before the return team got downfield.

    - Austin Davis is a terrible QB. You want proof Kap is getting blackballed? Guys like him playing in the NFL is your evidence. Kind of hard to win preseason games when they have guys like him playing 20 minutes.

    - Defense is a concern, however we know we don’t have prime LOB anymore and the Chargers have always had their way with us on offense. Even in our elite defense years. To be expected.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:28 am
  • All good points so far. Interesting about teams going 4-0 in preseason then getting blanked the rest of the year.

    Two things I was looking for last night:

    1. Shotts commitment to the run and the OL blocking - both not answered in last nights performance.

    2. DB's and somewhat DL, both have a long way to go, but very young also so hope is there.

    Our first SB under Holmgren was a young team also. Tatupu was a rookie that year if I remember right and similar things were said of that team that are being said of us this year, i.e. rebuilding.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:19 am
  • Last night's pre season game has left me disappointed and worried for the upcoming season.

    Pre season for the Hawks typically correlate to the upcoming season as the OP said.

    In the 2013 pre season, Seattle destroyed the Broncos. The exact same result occurred in the Superbowl.

    I think it's best if we just lower our expectations for this season. It'll have to be a throw away season, and an unfortunate wasted one in the prime of Wagner and Wilson's careers, but in the end it may be necessary to take a step back before moving forward.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:55 am
  • Jerhawk wrote:Last night's pre season game has left me disappointed and worried for the upcoming season.

    Pre season for the Hawks typically correlate to the upcoming season as the OP said.

    In the 2013 pre season, Seattle destroyed the Broncos. The exact same result occurred in the Superbowl.

    I think it's best if we just lower our expectations for this season. It'll have to be a throw away season, and an unfortunate wasted one in the prime of Wagner and Wilson's careers, but in the end it may be necessary to take a step back before moving forward.


    You’re not going to win preseason games with Austin Davis getting the bulk of the second half reps. He’s one of the worst back up QBs in the NFL. We were dominant in preseason in 2012 because Wilson was going HAM on practice squad players, and 2013-2016 with TJacks experience and Boykins athleticism.


    Teams who win preseason games have backup QBs who can actually play.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:12 am
  • Meh, I just don't get too fired up either way when it comes to preseason. Neither team is showing their hand, there is no real scheming and game planning...They are nothing more than glorified practices.

    4-0, 0-4...Neither matters when the bullets fly for real.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:13 am
  • The results of prseason dont matter. Some details and tidbits might matter.
    Last edited by TwilightError on Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:13 am
  • I don't care about winning or losing that much. The issues that worried me are the starting run defense, pass rush, red zone offense, and run blocking.

    Ifedi I can understand. He's going to lose around 1/3 snaps to guys on Ingram's level. We can maybe work around that with scheme if Schotty is up to it. The problem comes when we have to go against two edge rushers of that caliber... Namely Ingram and his running mate Bosa.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:58 am
  • Steve2222 wrote:Austin Davis is a terrible QB. You want proof Kap is getting blackballed? Guys like him playing in the NFL is your evidence. Kind of hard to win preseason games when they have guys like him playing 20 minutes.

    Not to derail this thread or get political, but Austin Davis is competing for a backup QB spot at $880k. Do you have information to suggest that Kap is looking to play for a cheap backup contract? Publicly available information indicates that he is not.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:03 am
  • I’m not trying to get political. Im just tired of watching trash like Austin Davis out there when there are clearly better alternatives. Do we even know if the Hawks offered him a contract? And if so, how much did they offer?
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:11 am
  • Steve2222 wrote:I’m not trying to get political. Im just tired of watching trash like Austin Davis out there when there are clearly better alternatives. Do we even know if the Hawks offered him a contract? And if so, how much did they offer?


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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:46 pm
  • Preseason is all about dress rehearsals, and getting to see the guys in an environment that simulates a real game. It is a time for experimentation, finding out what works and what doesn't. You will see teams running plays in the preseason that they wouldn't otherwise draw up in the regular season. A good example of this is Schottenheimers redzone offense. For the most part it looked like he looked like he was trying to get our short yardage running game hammered out.

    Certain elements in the preseason can be dissected, for example: How well is an individual playing. In players such as Tedric Thompson and Delano Hills case, I don't think they are going to magically get better when the regular season starts. On the flip side, guys like Green are showing good technique, speed, and pass rushing abilities, that kind of thing might translate over to the regular season.

    Now, what about the good ol' preseason heroes that don't amount to much? Well, lets analyse some of them here. That tiny defensive end, Reed from Oregon that always led the preseason in sacks, why didn't he work out? Reed was undersized and he only had one good move. He could make fools out of guys who weren't going to be in the NFL for much longer. When he got put against NFL caliber talent they simply just pancaked, and threw him around.

    What about Kasen Williams? Again, he is a story of a very one dimensional player. He did one thing well, and that was the go-route. When put into real situations he struggled to get anything going last season. The other parts of his game were lacking.

    Generally the guys that succeed in preseason, that don't make it in the NFL are very one dimensional or simply lack the athleticism or measurables needed to succeed. They are one trick ponies, and that doesn't usually work very well in the NFL.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:55 pm
  • I get why the Seahawks released Kasen Williams last year. He’s a fringe player, who was not great at blocking or special teams. But the Colts reportedly love Kasen Williams. He’s been making a lot of catches for them in training camp and had three catches for 46 yards against the Seahawks last week.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:02 pm
  • With the roster churn we are doing our pre season is about looking at match ups and situational stuff, I am not worried, guys like Moore who showed they can catch in traffic, go up and fight for a ball and get deep get bonus points, Brown may be the Richardson replacement based on how we used him, stuff like that is what I look at. On defense it is harder, without game film we don't see the play being ran in stop sequence, but reads and reaction time and where players need to be is important, a step late and a play can explode on you. The reaction to reads is a lot of inexperience, how much of that was happening. The thinking instead of playing concept portion of learning how to play in the NFL.

    Goal line and the power blocking scheme, are our guys getting leverage or getting pushed back, technique there to get a hole for Carson to run through, Madden using leverage to take on a LB to allow Carson to cut and plunge, another aspect.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:22 pm
  • The biggest disappointment has been the fullback position. Madden sucks as a blocker, but unfortunately injuries decimated this position battle. It seems we are doomed to not have a decent lead blocker unless a veteran addition is made at the cutdown.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:12 pm
  • It's a young team, with little experience together. Give it time, I still think this will be a good team. The starting d line looked like it improved within the game. To me, it's clear that Naz and Green should start next pre season game, tho.

    Edit: Getting Maxie, Doug, Tyler and hopefully Jordan back is going to greatly improve this team, too.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:16 pm
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:53 pm
  • Preseason #s, in aggregate, do not matter a whole lot.

    What other teams do is not relevant at all though.

    Under Pete's watch, the progress of the 1s vs the 1s, almost exactly mirrors the results throughout the season later.

    Based on that, the first few possessions, on both sides, of the preseason are indicators of the type of team we are going to get for the season.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:30 pm
  • AgentDib wrote:
    Steve2222 wrote:Austin Davis is a terrible QB. You want proof Kap is getting blackballed? Guys like him playing in the NFL is your evidence. Kind of hard to win preseason games when they have guys like him playing 20 minutes.

    Not to derail this thread or get political, but Austin Davis is competing for a backup QB spot at $880k. Do you have information to suggest that Kap is looking to play for a cheap backup contract? Publicly available information indicates that he is not.

    Do you have any info that he wouldn’t ?
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:44 pm
  • No game planning. Vanilla everything. Hard to REALLY know but the first team offense moved the ball. Dickson can be a huge asset. Not puckered every time we kick a field goal. And aside from Ifedi, the line does look a bit better. Carson is proving he can run the ball. I, like most of you, wanted to see more but two new coordinators and loads of new faces means a lot of feeling things out.

    I'm not worried. Yet.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:17 am
  • It doesn't matter even sort of. Getting worked up about glorified practice games is hilarious.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:21 am
  • The last few seasons, I've felt our preseason winning record was mostly due to having a stronger front-to-back roster than most teams we played. Our 3rd string has been better than the opponent's 3rd string. When our 2nd string is also clearly better than our opponents, we've won by a bigger margin.

    On Saturday, the Chargers' 2nd string outplayed our 2nd string. Our 3rd string couldn't close the gap. Not exactly time to declare the sky is falling.

    Do preseason results matter? NO.
    Does the preseason PROCESS matter? HECK YEAH.
    Coaches use it to get enough data to make separate players and make roster decisions.
    Which guys are coachable?
    Which guys just flat get outmanned against NFL athletes and need a year of development and strength work on PS before they can compete at an NFL level?
    Which guys show they have the mental and physical speed to compete?

    Let's take the QB position. Russell looks like he is on board with Schotty's offense well enough so far. Probably in part because Schotty has already tailored the offense to match Russell's skill set. Meantime, in the competition for backup QB, so far, Austin Davis has struggled to adjust to the new offense, and generally sucked. Does this mean Austin Davis simply sucks, or does it simply mean it's a different offensive concept from Bevell and Fisher, and he has to unlearn prior offenses enough to get the reads right on this one? Once he "gets" this offense, will he be a serviceable NFL backup? The coaches by now have a pretty good idea about this.

    Then McGough goes out and sucks in game 1 vs. Colts. Coaches see the rook is overwhelmed with the offense, and pare it down for him, for game 2. McGough does a credible job in game 2, and looks more capable than Davis. Does this mean McGough is already better than Davis? Unlikely. I'd guess that Davis, as a veteran, is expected to learn and master the ENTIRE offense, no rookie pare-down for him. So I think Davis sucking so far only means: 1) Davis does not have Russell Wilson's skill set (really, Captain Obvious?), 2) Davis has not yet internalized the reads of the offense, to make them at NFL speed, 3) So far, the team emphasis has been on getting Russell and the O-Line up to speed with the offense.

    The Chargers' offense was ahead of our defense for the most part. Not a huge surprise, given the impact players we've lost on D, the less experienced players replacing them, and the effect that has on the cohesiveness and chemistry of the D. I'm not too worried; Pete has a history of getting the D playing well.

    So far, our overall D-Line rotation has impressed, especially the young guys. Naz Jones, Rasheem Green, Jarran Reed, Quinton Jefferson, all have made plays. We know Frank Clark will bring it.

    We got enough data to know that Michael Dickson is our punter for the next decade-plus. We've seen nice plays at WR from Jaron Brown, David Moore, BMarshall, and others. We've seen that TE is still an open question, and it's unclear if Vannett is the answer.

    So far all we've really seen is that the 'Hawks are on track to play about .500 ball against NFL-level competition. And that the preseason games are successfully asking questions of the front office and the coaching staff. They are working on answering those questions.

    I'm very much enjoying watching the preseason games. I hope everyone else is also. OK, so I haven't been enjoying the parts with Austin Davis at QB. But at least we get to watch Michael Dickson punt after all Davis's 3 and outs.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:28 am
  • hawknation2018 wrote:I get why the Seahawks released Kasen Williams last year. He’s a fringe player, who was not great at blocking or special teams. But the Colts reportedly love Kasen Williams. He’s been making a lot of catches for them in training camp and had three catches for 46 yards against the Seahawks last week.


    The Colts can have Kasen Williams. He wouldn't make our team this year either.
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Re: The old "Does Pre-Season Matter"?
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:16 am
  • olyfan63 wrote:The last few seasons, I've felt our preseason winning record was mostly due to having a stronger front-to-back roster than most teams we played. Our 3rd string has been better than the opponent's 3rd string. When our 2nd string is also clearly better than our opponents, we've won by a bigger margin.

    On Saturday, the Chargers' 2nd string outplayed our 2nd string. Our 3rd string couldn't close the gap. Not exactly time to declare the sky is falling.

    Do preseason results matter? NO.
    Does the preseason PROCESS matter? HECK YEAH.
    Coaches use it to get enough data to make separate players and make roster decisions.
    Which guys are coachable?
    Which guys just flat get outmanned against NFL athletes and need a year of development and strength work on PS before they can compete at an NFL level?
    Which guys show they have the mental and physical speed to compete?

    Let's take the QB position. Russell looks like he is on board with Schotty's offense well enough so far. Probably in part because Schotty has already tailored the offense to match Russell's skill set. Meantime, in the competition for backup QB, so far, Austin Davis has struggled to adjust to the new offense, and generally sucked. Does this mean Austin Davis simply sucks, or does it simply mean it's a different offensive concept from Bevell and Fisher, and he has to unlearn prior offenses enough to get the reads right on this one? Once he "gets" this offense, will he be a serviceable NFL backup? The coaches by now have a pretty good idea about this.

    Then McGough goes out and sucks in game 1 vs. Colts. Coaches see the rook is overwhelmed with the offense, and pare it down for him, for game 2. McGough does a credible job in game 2, and looks more capable than Davis. Does this mean McGough is already better than Davis? Unlikely. I'd guess that Davis, as a veteran, is expected to learn and master the ENTIRE offense, no rookie pare-down for him. So I think Davis sucking so far only means: 1) Davis does not have Russell Wilson's skill set (really, Captain Obvious?), 2) Davis has not yet internalized the reads of the offense, to make them at NFL speed, 3) So far, the team emphasis has been on getting Russell and the O-Line up to speed with the offense.

    The Chargers' offense was ahead of our defense for the most part. Not a huge surprise, given the impact players we've lost on D, the less experienced players replacing them, and the effect that has on the cohesiveness and chemistry of the D. I'm not too worried; Pete has a history of getting the D playing well.

    So far, our overall D-Line rotation has impressed, especially the young guys. Naz Jones, Rasheem Green, Jarran Reed, Quinton Jefferson, all have made plays. We know Frank Clark will bring it.

    We got enough data to know that Michael Dickson is our punter for the next decade-plus. We've seen nice plays at WR from Jaron Brown, David Moore, BMarshall, and others. We've seen that TE is still an open question, and it's unclear if Vannett is the answer.

    So far all we've really seen is that the 'Hawks are on track to play about .500 ball against NFL-level competition. And that the preseason games are successfully asking questions of the front office and the coaching staff. They are working on answering those questions.

    I'm very much enjoying watching the preseason games. I hope everyone else is also. OK, so I haven't been enjoying the parts with Austin Davis at QB. But at least we get to watch Michael Dickson punt after all Davis's 3 and outs.


    I like this post. It is after all what you said early....paring down what players we can have trained and those that dont get it. It really does not matter what round they are drafted in nor does it matter they are UDFA types too. Just that they can perform as the coaching and coaching scheme work. Under non training camp conditions, usually vanilla offense and defense, and a different team with different philosophies, competition is more difficult. That is what they need to do in preseason....train under non standard training camp conditions. Chess matches constant with differing pieces playing differing positions. Get the people in that can cohesively compete.
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