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QB Throwaways
Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:15 pm
  • During my time watching this forum before joining one common theme for some is why doesn't Wilson throw the ball away more, rather than get sacked or run. Well, the answer is he already has to throw it away more than anyone else.



    Add in his sacks and that is close to 100 wasted plays thank mostly to our oline.
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Re: QB Throways
Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:40 pm
  • A lot of that has to do with the style that Rusell plays. Most QBs can't break the pocket like RW and find secondary throwing options or pick up yards with his feet, so for those QBs they are forcing the ball into tighter coverage leading to incomplete passes, where Russ can keep the play alive, make a good throw or throw the ball away.
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Re: QB Throways
Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:43 pm
  • Recon_Hawk wrote:A lot of that has to do with the style that Rusell plays. Most QBs can't break the pocket like RW and find secondary throwing options or pick up yards with his feet, so for those QBs they are forcing the ball into tighter coverage leading to incomplete passes, where Russ can keep the play alive, make a good throw or throw the ball away.


    Most QBs would have more sacks and more Ints behind this oline.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:27 am
  • Rivers was #2 in throwaways under pressure and I'm pretty sure he had the most total throwaways (including those when he wasn't pressured). It's interesting because he's a pure pocket passer and Russ isn't and they both throw the ball away quite often.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:05 am
  • Wonder how much of it was receivers not getting open too?
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:58 am
  • Hawk1217 wrote:
    Recon_Hawk wrote:A lot of that has to do with the style that Rusell plays. Most QBs can't break the pocket like RW and find secondary throwing options or pick up yards with his feet, so for those QBs they are forcing the ball into tighter coverage leading to incomplete passes, where Russ can keep the play alive, make a good throw or throw the ball away.


    Most QBs would have more sacks and more Ints behind this oline.

    I highly doubt that most QB's would have more sacks behind this offensive line. Russell Wilson is great at turning what looks like sunk plays into big plays, but we also must understand that this can comes with draw backs. Wilson has consistently held the ball longer than most QB's through out his career. There are some years where traditional QB's such as Brady get the ball out of their hands a second or so quicker than Wilson does. This tendency to take gamble on his abilities rather than take the safe play leads to more sacks and pressures.

    Another thing that must be noted is his poor pocket presence. A common thread in Wilson's career is a weak spot in setting up blockers, and making subtle movements that help blockers deflect. Wilson much prefers an open field to the pocket. His default is to step back, rather than step up in the pocket ( staying within the hashmarks is considered being in the pocket). This style works for him because of his elusiveness, burst, and agility. He may not be the fastest guy in the world (though he is still VERY fast) but he gets up to speed very quickly, and can change directions like the great Berry Sanders could. This style results in many defenders looking stupid, but it also leads to more sacks than normal.

    I think the guy I would compare Wilson to is Ben Roethlisberger in these respects. Roethlisberger likes living on the edge much like Wilson does (though he does it in a different way). He is very hard to take down, and this allows him to hold onto the ball longer than most QB's. Big risk, big reward. It doesn't matter how good his line is at blocking, the guy still finds ways to be sacked. Most of his seasons he racks up 30-40 sacks, and once even 50. The style that these QB's play lends itself to being hit, and sacked more than other QBs.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:13 am
  • Ben's style of play shifted significantly to that of a more cerebral pocket passer after the Arians to Haley transition. I think we could see something like that for Wilson, though I think he should be let loose more often than Ben as he has been healthier up to this point in his career. The quality of pass protection Ben has these day is much better as well as the Steelers transitioned from defensive-led to offensive-led and invested more in their line and of course their skill position players. It'll be interesting to see if that happens with the Seahawks, though I imagine it would be after Pete Carroll retires.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:31 am
  • adeltaY wrote:Ben's style of play shifted significantly to that of a more cerebral pocket passer after the Arians to Haley transition. I think we could see something like that for Wilson, though I think he should be let loose more often than Ben as he has been healthier up to this point in his career. The quality of pass protection Ben has these day is much better as well as the Steelers transitioned from defensive-led to offensive-led and invested more in their line and of course their skill position players. It'll be interesting to see if that happens with the Seahawks, though I imagine it would be after Pete Carroll retires.

    Yes, Ben's style is much different now. He has really transitioned as a player, though I think age and injuries played a big part in the necessity of such a switch. While still hard to take down, I do not think he is capable of recreating some of the feats from his earlier years. He relies more on timing, pre-snap checks, and pocket manipulation these days. I think Russ needs to start transitioning to this style soon, he is getting up to his 30s. I think Ben is a great career path to emulate, though I think there is something to Russ letting lose a little bit more than Ben does currently.

    I also think line play looks better for the Steelers because of Roethlisbergers style -- I'm not necessarily sold on it being because of better line play. He's had some very solid units over the years. Roethlisberger simply gets rid of the ball much quicker, and plays a more traditional style with some improv sprinkled in. The offense also helps as you mentioned.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:44 am
  • Not surprised at all with this stat. And even with all the throw away plays, due to no blocking and/or nobody getting open, he STILL has a good completion percentage.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:26 am
  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    Hawk1217 wrote:
    Recon_Hawk wrote:A lot of that has to do with the style that Rusell plays. Most QBs can't break the pocket like RW and find secondary throwing options or pick up yards with his feet, so for those QBs they are forcing the ball into tighter coverage leading to incomplete passes, where Russ can keep the play alive, make a good throw or throw the ball away.


    Most QBs would have more sacks and more Ints behind this oline.

    I highly doubt that most QB's would have more sacks behind this offensive line. Russell Wilson is great at turning what looks like sunk plays into big plays, but we also must understand that this can comes with draw backs. Wilson has consistently held the ball longer than most QB's through out his career. There are some years where traditional QB's such as Brady get the ball out of their hands a second or so quicker than Wilson does. This tendency to take gamble on his abilities rather than take the safe play leads to more sacks and pressures.

    Another thing that must be noted is his poor pocket presence. A common thread in Wilson's career is a weak spot in setting up blockers, and making subtle movements that help blockers deflect. Wilson much prefers an open field to the pocket. His default is to step back, rather than step up in the pocket ( staying within the hashmarks is considered being in the pocket). This style works for him because of his elusiveness, burst, and agility. He may not be the fastest guy in the world (though he is still VERY fast) but he gets up to speed very quickly, and can change directions like the great Berry Sanders could. This style results in many defenders looking stupid, but it also leads to more sacks than normal.

    I think the guy I would compare Wilson to is Ben Roethlisberger in these respects. Roethlisberger likes living on the edge much like Wilson does (though he does it in a different way). He is very hard to take down, and this allows him to hold onto the ball longer than most QB's. Big risk, big reward. It doesn't matter how good his line is at blocking, the guy still finds ways to be sacked. Most of his seasons he racks up 30-40 sacks, and once even 50. The style that these QB's play lends itself to being hit, and sacked more than other QBs.


    Agree to disagree on nearly all counts and you forgot more throwaways and sacks. Counting you there is only one who really thinks most QBs would not have more sacks than Wilson. Remember it would be the same scheme and a lot of the holding the balls is waiting on the play and receivers to get open. One thing for sure is all my research prior to joining this site has been proven accurate.
    Last edited by Hawk1217 on Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:28 am
  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:Ben's style of play shifted significantly to that of a more cerebral pocket passer after the Arians to Haley transition. I think we could see something like that for Wilson, though I think he should be let loose more often than Ben as he has been healthier up to this point in his career. The quality of pass protection Ben has these day is much better as well as the Steelers transitioned from defensive-led to offensive-led and invested more in their line and of course their skill position players. It'll be interesting to see if that happens with the Seahawks, though I imagine it would be after Pete Carroll retires.

    Yes, Ben's style is much different now. He has really transitioned as a player, though I think age and injuries played a big part in the necessity of such a switch. While still hard to take down, I do not think he is capable of recreating some of the feats from his earlier years. He relies more on timing, pre-snap checks, and pocket manipulation these days. I think Russ needs to start transitioning to this style soon, he is getting up to his 30s. I think Ben is a great career path to emulate, though I think there is something to Russ letting lose a little bit more than Ben does currently.

    I also think line play looks better for the Steelers because of Roethlisbergers style -- I'm not necessarily sold on it being because of better line play. He's had some very solid units over the years. Roethlisberger simply gets rid of the ball much quicker, and plays a more traditional style with some improv sprinkled in. The offense also helps as you mentioned.


    I rest my case, research-proven again.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:39 am
  • Just when I thought this site got rid of Anthony..
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:25 am
  • Also doesn't help when the OC is calling plays with long developing routes and the receivers are 20 yards down field
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:44 am
  • Good point. I think most of us can agree on one thing, seeing something DIFFERENT from the Offense would be nice. Hopefully that's exactly what we will get.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:05 pm
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Good point. I think most of us can agree on one thing, seeing something DIFFERENT from the Offense would be nice. Hopefully that's exactly what we will get.


    Agreed!
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:05 pm
  • Hawk1217 wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:Ben's style of play shifted significantly to that of a more cerebral pocket passer after the Arians to Haley transition. I think we could see something like that for Wilson, though I think he should be let loose more often than Ben as he has been healthier up to this point in his career. The quality of pass protection Ben has these day is much better as well as the Steelers transitioned from defensive-led to offensive-led and invested more in their line and of course their skill position players. It'll be interesting to see if that happens with the Seahawks, though I imagine it would be after Pete Carroll retires.

    Yes, Ben's style is much different now. He has really transitioned as a player, though I think age and injuries played a big part in the necessity of such a switch. While still hard to take down, I do not think he is capable of recreating some of the feats from his earlier years. He relies more on timing, pre-snap checks, and pocket manipulation these days. I think Russ needs to start transitioning to this style soon, he is getting up to his 30s. I think Ben is a great career path to emulate, though I think there is something to Russ letting lose a little bit more than Ben does currently.

    I also think line play looks better for the Steelers because of Roethlisbergers style -- I'm not necessarily sold on it being because of better line play. He's had some very solid units over the years. Roethlisberger simply gets rid of the ball much quicker, and plays a more traditional style with some improv sprinkled in. The offense also helps as you mentioned.


    I rest my case, research-proven again.

    Saying "research-proven" does not make my assertions any less true. In fact, you're attacking my viewpoint on the matter with a single shred of evidence. Saying "research proven" is no argument at all, in fact it is a logical fallacy. You're attacking an argument saying "I've done the research" without showing a shred of said research, and deferring to research that may or may not exist.

    I guess this is the Anthony that we all know and love.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:57 pm
  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    Hawk1217 wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:Ben's style of play shifted significantly to that of a more cerebral pocket passer after the Arians to Haley transition. I think we could see something like that for Wilson, though I think he should be let loose more often than Ben as he has been healthier up to this point in his career. The quality of pass protection Ben has these day is much better as well as the Steelers transitioned from defensive-led to offensive-led and invested more in their line and of course their skill position players. It'll be interesting to see if that happens with the Seahawks, though I imagine it would be after Pete Carroll retires.

    Yes, Ben's style is much different now. He has really transitioned as a player, though I think age and injuries played a big part in the necessity of such a switch. While still hard to take down, I do not think he is capable of recreating some of the feats from his earlier years. He relies more on timing, pre-snap checks, and pocket manipulation these days. I think Russ needs to start transitioning to this style soon, he is getting up to his 30s. I think Ben is a great career path to emulate, though I think there is something to Russ letting lose a little bit more than Ben does currently.

    I also think line play looks better for the Steelers because of Roethlisbergers style -- I'm not necessarily sold on it being because of better line play. He's had some very solid units over the years. Roethlisberger simply gets rid of the ball much quicker, and plays a more traditional style with some improv sprinkled in. The offense also helps as you mentioned.


    I rest my case, research-proven again.

    Saying "research-proven" does not make my assertions any less true. In fact, you're attacking my viewpoint on the matter with a single shred of evidence. Saying "research proven" is no argument at all, in fact it is a logical fallacy. You're attacking an argument saying "I've done the research" without showing a shred of said research, and deferring to research that may or may not exist.

    I guess this is the Anthony that we all know and love.



    LOL you really did not get what I was getting at, that's okay, that says a lot.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:00 pm
  • Hawk1217 wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    Hawk1217 wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:Yes, Ben's style is much different now. He has really transitioned as a player, though I think age and injuries played a big part in the necessity of such a switch. While still hard to take down, I do not think he is capable of recreating some of the feats from his earlier years. He relies more on timing, pre-snap checks, and pocket manipulation these days. I think Russ needs to start transitioning to this style soon, he is getting up to his 30s. I think Ben is a great career path to emulate, though I think there is something to Russ letting lose a little bit more than Ben does currently.

    I also think line play looks better for the Steelers because of Roethlisbergers style -- I'm not necessarily sold on it being because of better line play. He's had some very solid units over the years. Roethlisberger simply gets rid of the ball much quicker, and plays a more traditional style with some improv sprinkled in. The offense also helps as you mentioned.


    I rest my case, research-proven again.

    Saying "research-proven" does not make my assertions any less true. In fact, you're attacking my viewpoint on the matter with a single shred of evidence. Saying "research proven" is no argument at all, in fact it is a logical fallacy. You're attacking an argument saying "I've done the research" without showing a shred of said research, and deferring to research that may or may not exist.

    I guess this is the Anthony that we all know and love.



    LOL you really did not get what I was getting at, that's okay, that says a lot.

    Once again you're deflecting and being passive aggressive. Making vague and passive aggressive slights do nothing to advance your argument. Are you trying to see how many logical fallacies you can include in one sentence? If that was your goal, you've done well.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:22 pm
  • There were too many plays that were throwaways and I blame Bev more than Russ. The Hawks suck at the check down throw even though with Carson, Davis, Prosise, McKissic, and Madden they had the talent to be excellent at it.

    Schott has been working with RW on having a wider base so he's ready to throw it for a completion instead of away.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:40 pm
  • Seafan wrote:There were too many plays that were throwaways and I blame Bev more than Russ. The Hawks suck at the check down throw even though with Carson, Davis, Prosise, McKissic, and Madden they had the talent to be excellent at it.

    Schott has been working with RW on having a wider base so he's ready to throw it for a completion instead of away.


    Yeah, what was the deal with the lack of checkdowns? I saw Russ check down to Mike Davis a few times later in the season and it worked really well. He even juked Sean Lee out of his shoes for a first down in the Cowboys game. I'd love to see more checkdowns and screens this year.
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Re: QB Throways
Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:17 pm
  • Schottenheimer knows his way around world-class quarterbacks, having worked with Brett Favre with the New York Jets and working as Drew Brees’ position coach in San Diego before becoming friends with him. Schottenheimer, of course, was hesitant to compare Russell Wilson to any of them.

    “I don’t think that’s fair to him or to any of the guys that I’ve had,” Schottenheimer said. “I’ve been blessed to be around some great ones. Having been out there, I think the first thing that I recognized is just how instinctive he is on the football field. He sees things that maybe some other guys I’ve been around just wouldn’t notice. Now, when they go watch film they see it, but again, that’s what allows him to stay ahead of the defense.

    “He’ll come over from time to time and he’ll tell me something that he saw, and I’ll be like ‘no way.’ And I go back and I watch and I’m like, ‘Yeah, he was right.’”

    That’s not to say Schottenheimer doesn’t have ideas about how Wilson can get better.

    “Russell’s obviously a tremendous athlete, but there’s certain things we’re trying to teach him in terms of his drop mechanics, his setup mechanics – it’ll be a little bit different,” Schottenheimer said. “One of those things is just trying to get him to play with a little bit of a wider base. By staying and having a wider base, you’re always ready to throw. If something pops that you’re not expecting to pop open, you’re in balance and ready to throw.

    Schottenheimer and Carroll clearly share a plan for the offense this season – Schottenheimer used the world “philosophy” at least 10 times during the course of his interview with Q13 – and it’s one that will bring the focus back to the run game.

    “We’re always going to want to be balanced,” Schottenheimer said. “We’re going to want to have a running attack that teams know … when we call runs and we need to run the ball late in the game, we can do that. But, we also want to have the ability to hurt people throwing the football.

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Re: QB Throways
Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:10 am
  • KitsapGuy wrote:Schottenheimer knows his way around world-class quarterbacks, having worked with Brett Favre with the New York Jets and working as Drew Brees’ position coach in San Diego before becoming friends with him. Schottenheimer, of course, was hesitant to compare Russell Wilson to any of them.

    “I don’t think that’s fair to him or to any of the guys that I’ve had,” Schottenheimer said. “I’ve been blessed to be around some great ones. Having been out there, I think the first thing that I recognized is just how instinctive he is on the football field. He sees things that maybe some other guys I’ve been around just wouldn’t notice. Now, when they go watch film they see it, but again, that’s what allows him to stay ahead of the defense.

    “He’ll come over from time to time and he’ll tell me something that he saw, and I’ll be like ‘no way.’ And I go back and I watch and I’m like, ‘Yeah, he was right.’”

    That’s not to say Schottenheimer doesn’t have ideas about how Wilson can get better.

    “Russell’s obviously a tremendous athlete, but there’s certain things we’re trying to teach him in terms of his drop mechanics, his setup mechanics – it’ll be a little bit different,” Schottenheimer said. “One of those things is just trying to get him to play with a little bit of a wider base. By staying and having a wider base, you’re always ready to throw. If something pops that you’re not expecting to pop open, you’re in balance and ready to throw.

    Schottenheimer and Carroll clearly share a plan for the offense this season – Schottenheimer used the world “philosophy” at least 10 times during the course of his interview with Q13 – and it’s one that will bring the focus back to the run game.

    “We’re always going to want to be balanced,” Schottenheimer said. “We’re going to want to have a running attack that teams know … when we call runs and we need to run the ball late in the game, we can do that. But, we also want to have the ability to hurt people throwing the football.

    https://q13fox.com/2018/07/16/brian-sch ... ll-wilson/

    Sounds really good and I hope it works out..
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Re: QB Throways
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:24 am
  • Seafan wrote:There were too many plays that were throwaways and I blame Bev more than Russ. The Hawks suck at the check down throw even though with Carson, Davis, Prosise, McKissic, and Madden they had the talent to be excellent at it.

    Schott has been working with RW on having a wider base so he's ready to throw it for a completion instead of away.

    I think that Carroll and Bev have really impacted Russ's development as a player. They both encouraged that backyard style of play, and in many cases that backyard style IS his only check down. I think this was a natural tendency for Wilson, but that Bev, and Carroll double downed on it. I wonder what Wilson would look like under competent offensive management? I really do not think the man has been given the tools to succeed. Carroll, and Bev still treated the guy like he is was rookie QB. The time that they decided to give him more responsibility, freedom at the LOS and put more nuance into the playbook he goes off and has his 2015 season.
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Re: QB Throways
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:33 am
  • Hawk1217 wrote:LOL you really did not get what I was getting at, that's okay, that says a lot.


    Sorry Columbus, but this board actually existed before you "discovered" it and doesn't need you to validate us all with your presence and approval. Maybe stop to realize you are NOT the pearl stepping into the .NET oyster.

    Learn a little logic and maybe to actually state whatever questionable "research" you vaguely refer to. If your "research" abilities are so great, why aren't you on an NFL team's payroll as a scout? Your "smack game" is just "lame" here. Can you step it up and actually bring facts, logic, and intelligent discussion?
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Re: QB Throways
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:45 am
  • olyfan63 wrote:
    Hawk1217 wrote:LOL you really did not get what I was getting at, that's okay, that says a lot.


    Sorry Columbus, but this board actually existed before you "discovered" it and doesn't need you to validate us all with your presence and approval. Maybe stop to realize you are NOT the pearl stepping into the .NET oyster.

    Learn a little logic and maybe to actually state whatever questionable "research" you vaguely refer to. If your "research" abilities are so great, why aren't you on an NFL team's payroll as a scout? Your "smack game" is just "lame" here. Can you step it up and actually bring facts, logic, and intelligent discussion?


    Ahh you might want to go back and read all my posts, I bring facts, and logic, and if you read my posts here you would know what I was talking about, instead of just jumping to the defense of others who have been here longer. That is one of the other things I noticed in watching this board, there are a few that feel if you are new you can't say much, towards anyone who has been here for a while, They, on the other hand, can say anything, You just proved that correct, I think perhaps you should read and think with an open mind before you post things and call people names.
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Re: QB Throways
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:48 am
  • IndyHawk wrote:
    KitsapGuy wrote:Schottenheimer knows his way around world-class quarterbacks, having worked with Brett Favre with the New York Jets and working as Drew Brees’ position coach in San Diego before becoming friends with him. Schottenheimer, of course, was hesitant to compare Russell Wilson to any of them.

    “I don’t think that’s fair to him or to any of the guys that I’ve had,” Schottenheimer said. “I’ve been blessed to be around some great ones. Having been out there, I think the first thing that I recognized is just how instinctive he is on the football field. He sees things that maybe some other guys I’ve been around just wouldn’t notice. Now, when they go watch film they see it, but again, that’s what allows him to stay ahead of the defense.

    “He’ll come over from time to time and he’ll tell me something that he saw, and I’ll be like ‘no way.’ And I go back and I watch and I’m like, ‘Yeah, he was right.’”

    That’s not to say Schottenheimer doesn’t have ideas about how Wilson can get better.

    “Russell’s obviously a tremendous athlete, but there’s certain things we’re trying to teach him in terms of his drop mechanics, his setup mechanics – it’ll be a little bit different,” Schottenheimer said. “One of those things is just trying to get him to play with a little bit of a wider base. By staying and having a wider base, you’re always ready to throw. If something pops that you’re not expecting to pop open, you’re in balance and ready to throw.

    Schottenheimer and Carroll clearly share a plan for the offense this season – Schottenheimer used the world “philosophy” at least 10 times during the course of his interview with Q13 – and it’s one that will bring the focus back to the run game.

    “We’re always going to want to be balanced,” Schottenheimer said. “We’re going to want to have a running attack that teams know … when we call runs and we need to run the ball late in the game, we can do that. But, we also want to have the ability to hurt people throwing the football.

    https://q13fox.com/2018/07/16/brian-sch ... ll-wilson/

    Sounds really good and I hope it works out..



    My only fear comes from a story I read were Shotty was I believe with the Giants and had planned to run the ball 40 times no matter what and the HC had to tell him to throw it when they got behind big, as he refused to change. THat concerns me in that Pete is unlikely to tell him that should he fall into that trap here. ITs okay to run 40 times if it is working, but if it is not then its time to change.
    Last edited by Hawk1217 on Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: QB Throways
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:05 pm
  • Hawk1217 wrote:Ahh you might want to go back and read all my posts, I bring facts, and logic, and if you read my posts here you would know what I was talking about, instead of just jumping to the defense of others who have been here longer. That is one of the other things I noticed in watching this board, there are a few that feel if you are new you can't say much, towards anyone who has been here for a while, They, on the other hand, can say anything, You just proved that correct, I think perhaps you should read and think with an open mind before you post things and call people names.

    I believe you are incorrectly attributing peoples' criticism of your posts to being new, and not stopping to see that you have not in fact supported your position adequately.

    The above quote is a great example of the logical fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc.. You posit that because someone criticised you it is proof of a bias against new posters.

    It's entirely possible a different explanation exists for the criticism, that being you are simply wrong or failed to support your point when challenged.

    You don't get a free pass for being a vet around here, and nor do you get a free pass because you are new. You get a pass when you make a reasoned argument that you can support, and you get criticised if you fail to do so.

    Beginning your career here with the self-martyring attitude of "i'm new and the old guys are picking on me" is not going to serve you well, and is probably a path you should not continue to follow.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:38 pm
  • This could end up being a Throwaway thread for safety's sake. :)
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Re: QB Throways
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:08 pm
  • KiwiHawk wrote:
    Hawk1217 wrote:Ahh you might want to go back and read all my posts, I bring facts, and logic, and if you read my posts here you would know what I was talking about, instead of just jumping to the defense of others who have been here longer. That is one of the other things I noticed in watching this board, there are a few that feel if you are new you can't say much, towards anyone who has been here for a while, They, on the other hand, can say anything, You just proved that correct, I think perhaps you should read and think with an open mind before you post things and call people names.

    I believe you are incorrectly attributing peoples' criticism of your posts to being new, and not stopping to see that you have not in fact supported your position adequately.

    The above quote is a great example of the logical fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc.. You posit that because someone criticised you it is proof of a bias against new posters.

    It's entirely possible a different explanation exists for the criticism, that being you are simply wrong or failed to support your point when challenged.

    You don't get a free pass for being a vet around here, and nor do you get a free pass because you are new. You get a pass when you make a reasoned argument that you can support, and you get criticised if you fail to do so.

    Beginning your career here with the self-martyring attitude of "i'm new and the old guys are picking on me" is not going to serve you well, and is probably a path you should not continue to follow.


    lol, Okay whatever you say :roll:
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Re: QB Throwaways
Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:48 am
  • Hawk1217 wrote:lol, Okay whatever you say :roll:


    Everything that KiwiHawk said in addition to what I said. All you're doing is further validating and putting an exclamation point on negative things that have been said regarding your posts.

    I find the recurrng retaliatory dismissive attitude towards others so juvenile, and it's so unnecessary and out of place here; it really sticks out like a sore thumb. Why do you NEED to do that? Lose that, develop some humility about your own level of knowledge, and you could be a real asset here. The truth is that we all have such limited information compared to what PC/JS and the team insiders have.

    There are so many great posters here who share great information and analysis, and the quality of their posts and information stands on its own. They also know there are many other smart people here and appreciate and value the insights that others bring, even when it's different than their take. When challenged, they typically either respond with quality information, or accept and incorporate some of the valid points from the challenge into their view.

    Your overall point in starting this thread was a good one, and there is still a lot of room for great discussion on the original point. It may be an oversimplification to blame Russell's throwaways so much on the (historically) crappy OL.

    We haven't even talked about how much of the "throwaways" issue is due to receivers not getting separation, and then there is Russell's seeming lack of confidence in some of his receivers to throw it up for them to make a play. It's only this last year or so Russell figured out he could throw jump balls to Jimmy Graham for TDs. Why did that take so long?

    There was some discussion of play design and overall offensive concept giving Russell more check-down options, and Russell learning better to use those options. Maybe Schotty will improve things there. We can always hope.

    QB throwaways are a complicated, multi-factor issue, involving way more than just the OL.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:38 am
  • olyfan63 wrote:
    Hawk1217 wrote:lol, Okay whatever you say :roll:


    Everything that KiwiHawk said in addition to what I said. All you're doing is further validating and putting an exclamation point on negative things that have been said regarding your posts.

    I find the recurrng retaliatory dismissive attitude towards others so juvenile, and it's so unnecessary and out of place here; it really sticks out like a sore thumb. Why do you NEED to do that? Lose that, develop some humility about your own level of knowledge, and you could be a real asset here. The truth is that we all have such limited information compared to what PC/JS and the team insiders have.

    There are so many great posters here who share great information and analysis, and the quality of their posts and information stands on its own. They also know there are many other smart people here and appreciate and value the insights that others bring, even when it's different than their take. When challenged, they typically either respond with quality information, or accept and incorporate some of the valid points from the challenge into their view.

    Your overall point in starting this thread was a good one, and there is still a lot of room for great discussion on the original point. It may be an oversimplification to blame Russell's throwaways so much on the (historically) crappy OL.

    We haven't even talked about how much of the "throwaways" issue is due to receivers not getting separation, and then there is Russell's seeming lack of confidence in some of his receivers to throw it up for them to make a play. It's only this last year or so Russell figured out he could throw jump balls to Jimmy Graham for TDs. Why did that take so long?

    There was some discussion of play design and overall offensive concept giving Russell more check-down options, and Russell learning better to use those options. Maybe Schotty will improve things there. We can always hope.

    QB throwaways are a complicated, multi-factor issue, involving way more than just the OL.


    and so it starts, Okay lets look at it. My first post in this thread

    "During my time watching this forum before joining one common theme for some is why doesn't Wilson throw the ball away more, rather than get sacked or run. Well, the answer is he already has to throw it away more than anyone else. " This is the post that started the whole thread with facts. nothing bad here at all.

    My second p[ost "Most QBs would have more sacks and more Ints behind this oline." again my opinion and nothing bad here at all. and was in response to someone else's opinion.

    MY 3rd post
    "Agree to disagree on nearly all counts and you forgot more throwaways and sacks. Counting you there is only one who really thinks most QBs would not have more sacks than Wilson. Remember it would be the same scheme and a lot of the holding the balls is waiting on the play and receivers to get open. One thing for sure is all my research prior to joining this site has been proven accurate." I said agree to disagree and made a point that the person who posted above was the only one who said this, despite posting like ti was a fact. I bring up the research I did prior to joining this forum and that his post fits what I found, never said it was good or bad just there.

    My 4th post "I rest my case, research-proven again." Again just saying the what I saw on the board as the norm was baring out.

    5th post I agreed in total with someone who voiced their opinion. "Agreed!"

    6th
    "LOL you really did not get what I was getting at, that's okay, that says a lot." I made it clear the person in question did not get what I was saying and instead turned this into something it was not and tried to claim I was someone I was not, an attack and not the first on me in this thread,

    7th post

    In response to someone who was trying really hard to belittle me "Ahh you might want to go back and read all my posts, I bring facts, and logic, and if you read my posts here you would know what I was talking about, instead of just jumping to the defense of others who have been here longer. That is one of the other things I noticed in watching this board, there are a few that feel if you are new you can't say much, towards anyone who has been here for a while, They, on the other hand, can say anything, You just proved that correct, I think perhaps you should read and think with an open mind before you post things and call people names."

    8th post were I try to get back on topic and voice a fear I have relevant to the offense "My only fear comes from a story I read were Shotty was I believe with the Giants and had planned to run the ball 40 times no matter what and the HC had to tell him to throw it when they got behind big, as he refused to change. THat concerns me in that Pete is unlikely to tell him that should he fall into that trap here. ITs okay to run 40 times if it is working, but if it is not then its time to change."


    9th post I make it clear though perhaps passively that this is getting us no place "lol, Okay whatever you say :roll:"


    And now this one. if you read all my posts and then read the posts I am responding to with an open mind you would say I did not say anything wrong and tried several times to defuse the situation and yet some here the ones who have been here awhile and know each other felt the need to attack when one of their own felt slighted, despite no slit being made.

    As to my posts, there is nothing wrong with my posts, I posted facts when required and gave my opinion when needed and defended this opinion just like the people I responded to.

    Now hopefully we can get back on subject and stop with these thread stealing, need to alienate and chastise anyone who does not agree with the guard.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:41 am
  • Get over it Sherm, I mean Hawk
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Re: QB Throwaways
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:47 am
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Get over it Sherm, I mean Hawk


    So not knowing other than the player who you are referring to, I have tried to get over it, but the usual pile-on started. Hopefully, we can get back on track.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:29 am
  • Go Hawks
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Re: QB Throwaways
Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:36 am
  • Let's stay on topic here folks.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:43 pm
  • Throwaways > sacks amirite?
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Re: QB Throwaways
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:25 pm
  • Hawk1217 wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Get over it Sherm, I mean Hawk


    So not knowing other than the player who you are referring to, I have tried to get over it, but the usual pile-on started. Hopefully, we can get back on track.

    I'll try to be as constructive as I can here.

    Can you see that saying you have done a lot of research prior to joining this site, yet offering none of it, and proclaiming the entirety is proven by a thread in which we agree only that throwaways are a complex issue with no single right answer, looks a bit contrived, to say the least?

    A: nothing had been proven to be anything, conclusively

    and

    B: where is all this research such that it might be reviewed?

    This is an odd mix of argumentum ad verecundiam ("appeal to authority") and petitio principii ("circular argument") in which you promote yourself as the authority ("research") and then use your authority to prove yourself right.

    It doesn't make for someone I want to have a discourse with, because you can literally pull any "proof" out of your ass and attribute it to volumes of "research" no one has ever seen.

    I am sometimes critical of Wilson because he doesn't throw it away when he should, and because he sometimes missed HUGE opportunities because he's too busy running around to see them.

    For example:


    Wilson spends a bit of time juking around, but has plenty of opportunities to throw the ball away "near" someone even though he's still in the pocket, and i would have preferred he throw it away to the wide-freaking-open Doug Baldwin streaking to the end zone.

    in this play:

    https://www.seahawks.com/video/cowboys- ... ack-203346

    Wilson is outside the pocket and can lob the ball out of bounds, but continues to drop back and takes a whopping 22-yard sack and looked stupid doing it.

    The following two pays were sacks. Look at Kearse in each of them:
    Image

    Image

    A throwaway (he has Baldwin at the 39 and another guy whose number I can't see at the 34):
    Image

    And this play resulted in a scramble for a short gain:
    Image

    Here's a throwaway - he was under pressure but could have hit Lynch. Baldwin was open deep, but probably too deep to be useful.
    Image

    Another throwaway with a clearly open receiver and a clear throwing lane:
    Image

    So not all the throwaways are about avoiding sacks. Some are missed opportunities - sometimes huge opportunities, and it's a fair call to be occasionally critical of Wilson when he misses these opportunities.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:49 am
  • When your scrambling your not seeing the whole field, your looking for defenders, your seeing whats down field in the direction your running and your gauge of separation is off, hard to see speed between guys when your running also. Why guys that are good at going into scramble drill mode run into his line of sight not away from it and run to where he is going not where he has been.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:03 am
  • chris98251 wrote:When your scrambling your not seeing the whole field, your looking for defenders, your seeing whats down field in the direction your running and your gauge of separation is off, hard to see speed between guys when your running also. Why guys that are good at going into scramble drill mode run into his line of sight not away from it and run to where he is going not where he has been.


    Exactly, pictures are great but you don't know what the QB sees, what order the progression is, saying someone is open is great but again can the QB see them, are they at a distance that helps given it might be 3rd and long or whatever. etc etc. So a lot of variables and far from cut a dry.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:27 am
  • Nah, the fans clearly can do better from their couch :lol:
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Re: QB Throwaways
Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:50 am
  • Well from those pics you can see either the protection is good and he bails early or he's still in the pocket. He's either bailing too early with good protection, being coached to bail after a certain amount of time, or hit early so often that he sees phantom pressure. Maybe all of those.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:04 pm
  • adeltaY wrote:Well from those pics you can see either the protection is good and he bails early or he's still in the pocket. He's either bailing too early with good protection, being coached to bail after a certain amount of time, or hit early so often that he sees phantom pressure. Maybe all of those.



    Actually no you cant let's start with
    picture 1, he is still in the pocket, you say look at Kearse and I do and see lineman that could get a hand up and a defender looking at Wilson that could jump it and another behind Kearse who could jump the route and again no idea the down and distance
    Picture 2 he is turned you have no clue what he is doing, he could be turning and staying in the pocket, also you see pressure coming right up the middle. I see Kearse and he is open however Wilson has his back to him with a defender coming up the middle, a lot of people on that side that could get a hand up. Another example of needing to see the play form the start to know.
    Picture 3 he is in the pocket
    Picture 4 now he is moving outside the pocket with a guy about 2 yards away though he is stumbling, and no one open
    picture 5 Cant really see him but I believe he is in the pocket deep, and has someone running free at him
    Picture 6 he is in the pocket,

    Now as to you saying throw away or whatever, I would need to see the whole play to know as your opinion is your opinion and I and others may see it differently. That is the downside of pictures you get one moment in time without the context around it. They prove nothing and often cause more questions.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:36 am
  • Hawk1217 wrote:Now as to you saying throw away or whatever, I would need to see the whole play to know as your opinion is your opinion and I and others may see it differently. That is the downside of pictures you get one moment in time without the context around it. They prove nothing and often cause more questions.

    Right, so I am to take it as gospel that you have this mountain of research proving your every point, and yet you have the gall to question my integrity. What a crock of bullshit.

    I have been posting to this site for decades and have never once misrepresented anything I have posted here, and even people who dislike me here can at least vouch for my integrity.

    If I post a picture saying it ended in a sack, you can believe that it ended in a freaking sack.

    Not that you deserve it - certainly you are not forthcoming regarding your own sources - but here is the source for many of the images, which I recalled from the time it was produced and retrieved for the purpose of my above post:

    http://www.neontommy.com/news/2014/12/s ... hrough-air

    You will notice a certain consistency between my assessment of whether something was a sack or throwaway with the article.

    Nice start you have here. Come in all hot about your opinions and vast research and proceed to call the locals liars. it pains me certain words are barred from this forum because you've earned a fair sampling.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:26 am
  • Everybody has their right to their opinion. But let's be civil about it. Agree to disagree or whatever, but be nice about it.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:50 am
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Nah, the fans clearly can do better from their couch :lol:

    Ah yes, the good ol' northwestern passive aggressive jab. Of course we aren't NFL QBs, but we do have access to the tools to pick them apart, and analyze what they're doing right, or conversely what they're not doing. We have the replays, and we now have all-22, and slow-mo. It has become easier than ever to see what a QB is or is not doing, or perhaps even missed opportunities.

    By your logic, why even bother having a fan forum such as .NET? It exist to talk about Seahawk football, and that is exactly what is happening right here.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:11 am
  • KiwiHawk wrote:
    Hawk1217 wrote:Now as to you saying throw away or whatever, I would need to see the whole play to know as your opinion is your opinion and I and others may see it differently. That is the downside of pictures you get one moment in time without the context around it. They prove nothing and often cause more questions.

    Right, so I am to take it as gospel that you have this mountain of research proving your every point, and yet you have the gall to question my integrity. What a crock of bullshit.

    I have been posting to this site for decades and have never once misrepresented anything I have posted here, and even people who dislike me here can at least vouch for my integrity.

    If I post a picture saying it ended in a sack, you can believe that it ended in a freaking sack.

    Not that you deserve it - certainly you are not forthcoming regarding your own sources - but here is the source for many of the images, which I recalled from the time it was produced and retrieved for the purpose of my above post:

    http://www.neontommy.com/news/2014/12/s ... hrough-air

    You will notice a certain consistency between my assessment of whether something was a sack or throwaway with the article.

    Nice start you have here. Come in all hot about your opinions and vast research and proceed to call the locals liars. it pains me certain words are barred from this forum because you've earned a fair sampling.

    I'll vouch for you. I've been reading this board since around 2004, and I have seen you around. You're pretty consistent and you admit fault when you have been proven wrong. One of the better posters on this board in my opinion.

    Now, as for you Hawk, you've gotta provide some of this research if you want anyone to take you seriously. Whenever someone makes a point you shoot it down without providing any examples and defer to your research that may, or may not exist. As Kiwi and I have pointed out, you are engaged in several logical fallacies here. It's a game of ring around the rosy in a logical sense. Someone says something, you yell false. When said person starts questioning the "false" you immediately talk about research. The fallacy circle restarts again, and away we go again on another merry go round ride.

    It just gets frustrating trying to have any kind of dialog with you Hawk. You're not a bad guy, it's just that conversations with you get nowhere. It is always a dead end.
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Re: QB Throwaways
Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:37 am
  • KiwiHawk wrote:
    Hawk1217 wrote:Now as to you saying throw away or whatever, I would need to see the whole play to know as your opinion is your opinion and I and others may see it differently. That is the downside of pictures you get one moment in time without the context around it. They prove nothing and often cause more questions.

    Right, so I am to take it as gospel that you have this mountain of research proving your every point, and yet you have the gall to question my integrity. What a crock of bullshit.

    I have been posting to this site for decades and have never once misrepresented anything I have posted here, and even people who dislike me here can at least vouch for my integrity.

    If I post a picture saying it ended in a sack, you can believe that it ended in a freaking sack.

    Not that you deserve it - certainly you are not forthcoming regarding your own sources - but here is the source for many of the images, which I recalled from the time it was produced and retrieved for the purpose of my above post:

    http://www.neontommy.com/news/2014/12/s ... hrough-air

    You will notice a certain consistency between my assessment of whether something was a sack or throwaway with the article.

    Nice start you have here. Come in all hot about your opinions and vast research and proceed to call the locals liars. it pains me certain words are barred from this forum because you've earned a fair sampling.



    Whatever you say :roll:

    But thank you for making one of my points "Come in all hot about your opinions and vast research and proceed to call the locals liars." one I never called anyone a liar, and 2 "Locals" so you think because you have been here for a while you deserve some special treatment and no one should question you. LOL
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Re: QB Throwaways
Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:42 am
  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:
    Hawk1217 wrote:Now as to you saying throw away or whatever, I would need to see the whole play to know as your opinion is your opinion and I and others may see it differently. That is the downside of pictures you get one moment in time without the context around it. They prove nothing and often cause more questions.

    Right, so I am to take it as gospel that you have this mountain of research proving your every point, and yet you have the gall to question my integrity. What a crock of bullshit.

    I have been posting to this site for decades and have never once misrepresented anything I have posted here, and even people who dislike me here can at least vouch for my integrity.

    If I post a picture saying it ended in a sack, you can believe that it ended in a freaking sack.

    Not that you deserve it - certainly you are not forthcoming regarding your own sources - but here is the source for many of the images, which I recalled from the time it was produced and retrieved for the purpose of my above post:

    http://www.neontommy.com/news/2014/12/s ... hrough-air

    You will notice a certain consistency between my assessment of whether something was a sack or throwaway with the article.

    Nice start you have here. Come in all hot about your opinions and vast research and proceed to call the locals liars. it pains me certain words are barred from this forum because you've earned a fair sampling.

    I'll vouch for you. I've been reading this board since around 2004, and I have seen you around. You're pretty consistent and you admit fault when you have been proven wrong. One of the better posters on this board in my opinion.

    Now, as for you Hawk, you've gotta provide some of this research if you want anyone to take you seriously. Whenever someone makes a point you shoot it down without providing any examples and defer to your research that may, or may not exist. As Kiwi and I have pointed out, you are engaged in several logical fallacies here. It's a game of ring around the rosy in a logical sense. Someone says something, you yell false. When said person starts questioning the "false" you immediately talk about research. The fallacy circle restarts again, and away we go again on another merry go round ride.

    It just gets frustrating trying to have any kind of dialog with you Hawk. You're not a bad guy, it's just that conversations with you get nowhere. It is always a dead end.



    What a surprise a local defending a local, as he put it. I have supplied my facts and stats when needed. In fact I am the one that started this thread with facts. FYI its mutual it is hard to have a conversation with some on here also, given I am not "local" and therefor not allowed to question anyone, and others can just post their opinion without question but some who are not "local" cant.

    I will leave this thread which I started with facts by simply saying agree to disagree and movng on as this thread is done
    User avatar
    Hawk1217
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 135
    Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:37 am


Re: QB Throwaways
Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:47 am
  • Hawk1217 wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:
    Hawk1217 wrote:Now as to you saying throw away or whatever, I would need to see the whole play to know as your opinion is your opinion and I and others may see it differently. That is the downside of pictures you get one moment in time without the context around it. They prove nothing and often cause more questions.

    Right, so I am to take it as gospel that you have this mountain of research proving your every point, and yet you have the gall to question my integrity. What a crock of bullshit.

    I have been posting to this site for decades and have never once misrepresented anything I have posted here, and even people who dislike me here can at least vouch for my integrity.

    If I post a picture saying it ended in a sack, you can believe that it ended in a freaking sack.

    Not that you deserve it - certainly you are not forthcoming regarding your own sources - but here is the source for many of the images, which I recalled from the time it was produced and retrieved for the purpose of my above post:

    http://www.neontommy.com/news/2014/12/s ... hrough-air

    You will notice a certain consistency between my assessment of whether something was a sack or throwaway with the article.

    Nice start you have here. Come in all hot about your opinions and vast research and proceed to call the locals liars. it pains me certain words are barred from this forum because you've earned a fair sampling.

    I'll vouch for you. I've been reading this board since around 2004, and I have seen you around. You're pretty consistent and you admit fault when you have been proven wrong. One of the better posters on this board in my opinion.

    Now, as for you Hawk, you've gotta provide some of this research if you want anyone to take you seriously. Whenever someone makes a point you shoot it down without providing any examples and defer to your research that may, or may not exist. As Kiwi and I have pointed out, you are engaged in several logical fallacies here. It's a game of ring around the rosy in a logical sense. Someone says something, you yell false. When said person starts questioning the "false" you immediately talk about research. The fallacy circle restarts again, and away we go again on another merry go round ride.

    It just gets frustrating trying to have any kind of dialog with you Hawk. You're not a bad guy, it's just that conversations with you get nowhere. It is always a dead end.



    What a surprise a local defending a local, as he put it. I have supplied my facts and stats when needed. In fact I am the one that started this thread with facts. FYI its mutual it is hard to have a conversation with some on here also, given I am not "local" and therefor not allowed to question anyone, and others can just post their opinion without question but some who are not "local" cant.

    I will leave this thread which I started with facts by simply saying agree to disagree and movng on as this thread is done

    You have not provided any facts here aside from the OP article, which in itself can mean many different things. All you’ve done is deflect and say that you know better than us plebs because of ‘research’. You’re calling yourself the authority on this matter. It’s akin to me saying ‘trust me I’m a 7’8 Chinese woman’. When people ask for proof i deflect and ho hum around the issue.

    This is why nobody is taking you seriously.
    Spin Doctor
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2329
    Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:31 am


Re: QB Throwaways
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:47 pm
  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    Hawk1217 wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:Right, so I am to take it as gospel that you have this mountain of research proving your every point, and yet you have the gall to question my integrity. What a crock of bullshit.

    I have been posting to this site for decades and have never once misrepresented anything I have posted here, and even people who dislike me here can at least vouch for my integrity.

    If I post a picture saying it ended in a sack, you can believe that it ended in a freaking sack.

    Not that you deserve it - certainly you are not forthcoming regarding your own sources - but here is the source for many of the images, which I recalled from the time it was produced and retrieved for the purpose of my above post:

    http://www.neontommy.com/news/2014/12/s ... hrough-air

    You will notice a certain consistency between my assessment of whether something was a sack or throwaway with the article.

    Nice start you have here. Come in all hot about your opinions and vast research and proceed to call the locals liars. it pains me certain words are barred from this forum because you've earned a fair sampling.

    I'll vouch for you. I've been reading this board since around 2004, and I have seen you around. You're pretty consistent and you admit fault when you have been proven wrong. One of the better posters on this board in my opinion.

    Now, as for you Hawk, you've gotta provide some of this research if you want anyone to take you seriously. Whenever someone makes a point you shoot it down without providing any examples and defer to your research that may, or may not exist. As Kiwi and I have pointed out, you are engaged in several logical fallacies here. It's a game of ring around the rosy in a logical sense. Someone says something, you yell false. When said person starts questioning the "false" you immediately talk about research. The fallacy circle restarts again, and away we go again on another merry go round ride.

    It just gets frustrating trying to have any kind of dialog with you Hawk. You're not a bad guy, it's just that conversations with you get nowhere. It is always a dead end.



    What a surprise a local defending a local, as he put it. I have supplied my facts and stats when needed. In fact I am the one that started this thread with facts. FYI its mutual it is hard to have a conversation with some on here also, given I am not "local" and therefor not allowed to question anyone, and others can just post their opinion without question but some who are not "local" cant.

    I will leave this thread which I started with facts by simply saying agree to disagree and movng on as this thread is done

    You have not provided any facts here aside from the OP article, which in itself can mean many different things. All you’ve done is deflect and say that you know better than us plebs because of ‘research’. You’re calling yourself the authority on this matter. It’s akin to me saying ‘trust me I’m a 7’8 Chinese woman’. When people ask for proof i deflect and ho hum around the issue.

    This is why nobody is taking you seriously.


    LOL ahh no one on here other than me has provided facts, the research I have talked about which you obviously did not get was about this forum and the habits of some on here, the "Locals" as they have been called in this thread. Point in case you are speaking for everyone by saying "This is why nobody is taking you seriously" and yet I know for a fact that is not true. But hey thats okay your a "Local". :roll:
    User avatar
    Hawk1217
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 135
    Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:37 am


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