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Russell Wilson "should have won MVP," says Anthony Barr

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  • It's not runing a play doomed to fail 3-4 times. It's knowing what your opposition has seen on tape from you and running it that way once to let them confirm their assessment of that set, then crossing them up later. Walsh played the long game. he'd sacrifice individual plays for the overall game plan. Of course you can waste a play here and there when you have Joe Montana/Steve Young throwing to Jerry Rice if you need to convert a 3rd down.
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  • ivotuk wrote:Put Brady behind our offensive line, and he would have been on IR before the 1st quarter of the season was over. And this team would have been 2-14.

    And there's only one defensive stat that matters in the NFL, scoring defense. You can use all the acronyms and formulas you want, but the #1 defense in the NFL isn't the one that has pretty numbers, or the one that allows the fewest yards, it's the one that allows the fewest points.

    Russell can only do so much, the rest of the team failed him. He didn't have time to launch deep throws, and it's a wonder he played as well as he did at the end of the season after spending 12 weeks getting hammered, and running for his life. NO QB in the NFL could have done as well as Russell Wilson did last year on a horrid team.

    Yet he never complained. I guarantee you Aaron Rodgers or Kaepernick would have been whining by week 5.

    The argument "put Brady behind our offensive line" is not any sort of argument. For one it is something that is never going to happen, thus it cannot be proven or disproven. We can only judge what we have in front of us. Secondly, Brady has played behind some bad lines in his career, and he still looked good. Brady, too is good at avoiding pressure, he just does so in a different manner than Russ does. It doesn't show up in the highlight reels, but you can see it if you watch the guy on tape.

    Brady avoids pressure by getting rid of the ball quickly, and making subtle little movements in the pocket to set up his blockers. These are skills that Russell Wilson is not very good at. In the pocket he has always looked like a chicken with his head cut off even in some of the better years of O-line play. There was one play in particular that I recall from this season of him sitting in a clean pocket, and then running around in a circle, then unwittingly running into a defenders arms sacking himself. He is quite possibly one of the worst QB's in the NFL when it comes to pocket management. This would sink most QB's careers, but fortunately for Russ he is the greatest scrambler since Fran Tarkenton (I say Fran and not Vick because while Vick was fast, and great runner he wasn't particularly hard to tackle in the pocket). You can also see statistics for how long on average a QB holds onto the ball. In all years except 2015 Russell Wilson was number 1 or 2 in most time with ball in the hands.

    Russ is a great QB, and is quite possibly the biggest playmaker in the NFL. The sheer amount of BS he can pull off is staggering. He can pull of feats that no other QB in the NFL could ever pull off. He is the Barry Sanders of the QB world. Like Barry Sanders he has times where he can't get out of his own way (Sanders has the most negative yards and TFL is NFL history). This leads to uneven play, and large periods of games where he is irrelevant. Fortunately for us when he does come to bat he is usually unstoppable. I just wonder what changed in 2015 when compared to the rest of his career. I really think Pete's offensive philosophy is holding Russ back as a player, and hindering his development.
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  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    ivotuk wrote:Put Brady behind our offensive line, and he would have been on IR before the 1st quarter of the season was over. And this team would have been 2-14.

    And there's only one defensive stat that matters in the NFL, scoring defense. You can use all the acronyms and formulas you want, but the #1 defense in the NFL isn't the one that has pretty numbers, or the one that allows the fewest yards, it's the one that allows the fewest points.

    Russell can only do so much, the rest of the team failed him. He didn't have time to launch deep throws, and it's a wonder he played as well as he did at the end of the season after spending 12 weeks getting hammered, and running for his life. NO QB in the NFL could have done as well as Russell Wilson did last year on a horrid team.

    Yet he never complained. I guarantee you Aaron Rodgers or Kaepernick would have been whining by week 5.

    The argument "put Brady behind our offensive line" is not any sort of argument. For one it is something that is never going to happen, thus it cannot be proven or disproven. We can only judge what we have in front of us. Secondly, Brady has played behind some bad lines in his career, and he still looked good. Brady, too is good at avoiding pressure, he just does so in a different manner than Russ does. It doesn't show up in the highlight reels, but you can see it if you watch the guy on tape.

    Brady avoids pressure by getting rid of the ball quickly, and making subtle little movements in the pocket to set up his blockers. These are skills that Russell Wilson is not very good at. In the pocket he has always looked like a chicken with his head cut off even in some of the better years of O-line play. There was one play in particular that I recall from this season of him sitting in a clean pocket, and then running around in a circle, then unwittingly running into a defenders arms sacking himself. He is quite possibly one of the worst QB's in the NFL when it comes to pocket management. This would sink most QB's careers, but fortunately for Russ he is the greatest scrambler since Fran Tarkenton (I say Fran and not Vick because while Vick was fast, and great runner he wasn't particularly hard to tackle in the pocket). You can also see statistics for how long on average a QB holds onto the ball. In all years except 2015 Russell Wilson was number 1 or 2 in most time with ball in the hands.

    Russ is a great QB, and is quite possibly the biggest playmaker in the NFL. The sheer amount of BS he can pull off is staggering. He can pull of feats that no other QB in the NFL could ever pull off. He is the Barry Sanders of the QB world. Like Barry Sanders he has times where he can't get out of his own way (Sanders has the most negative yards and TFL is NFL history). This leads to uneven play, and large periods of games where he is irrelevant. Fortunately for us when he does come to bat he is usually unstoppable. I just wonder what changed in 2015 when compared to the rest of his career. I really think Pete's offensive philosophy is holding Russ back as a player, and hindering his development.


    No. You can easily come to the conclusion Brady would have gotten hurt behind this OL. Definitely couldn’t perform behind this OL. Sure Brady has played behind bad OLs. He has never, however, played behind historically terrible OLs. And for the large portion of his career, he’s played behind league average to top 10 OLs.

    Brady can manipulate the pocket, but he is still a statue in the pocket.
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  • Steve2222 wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    ivotuk wrote:Put Brady behind our offensive line, and he would have been on IR before the 1st quarter of the season was over. And this team would have been 2-14.

    And there's only one defensive stat that matters in the NFL, scoring defense. You can use all the acronyms and formulas you want, but the #1 defense in the NFL isn't the one that has pretty numbers, or the one that allows the fewest yards, it's the one that allows the fewest points.

    Russell can only do so much, the rest of the team failed him. He didn't have time to launch deep throws, and it's a wonder he played as well as he did at the end of the season after spending 12 weeks getting hammered, and running for his life. NO QB in the NFL could have done as well as Russell Wilson did last year on a horrid team.

    Yet he never complained. I guarantee you Aaron Rodgers or Kaepernick would have been whining by week 5.

    The argument "put Brady behind our offensive line" is not any sort of argument. For one it is something that is never going to happen, thus it cannot be proven or disproven. We can only judge what we have in front of us. Secondly, Brady has played behind some bad lines in his career, and he still looked good. Brady, too is good at avoiding pressure, he just does so in a different manner than Russ does. It doesn't show up in the highlight reels, but you can see it if you watch the guy on tape.

    Brady avoids pressure by getting rid of the ball quickly, and making subtle little movements in the pocket to set up his blockers. These are skills that Russell Wilson is not very good at. In the pocket he has always looked like a chicken with his head cut off even in some of the better years of O-line play. There was one play in particular that I recall from this season of him sitting in a clean pocket, and then running around in a circle, then unwittingly running into a defenders arms sacking himself. He is quite possibly one of the worst QB's in the NFL when it comes to pocket management. This would sink most QB's careers, but fortunately for Russ he is the greatest scrambler since Fran Tarkenton (I say Fran and not Vick because while Vick was fast, and great runner he wasn't particularly hard to tackle in the pocket). You can also see statistics for how long on average a QB holds onto the ball. In all years except 2015 Russell Wilson was number 1 or 2 in most time with ball in the hands.

    Russ is a great QB, and is quite possibly the biggest playmaker in the NFL. The sheer amount of BS he can pull off is staggering. He can pull of feats that no other QB in the NFL could ever pull off. He is the Barry Sanders of the QB world. Like Barry Sanders he has times where he can't get out of his own way (Sanders has the most negative yards and TFL is NFL history). This leads to uneven play, and large periods of games where he is irrelevant. Fortunately for us when he does come to bat he is usually unstoppable. I just wonder what changed in 2015 when compared to the rest of his career. I really think Pete's offensive philosophy is holding Russ back as a player, and hindering his development.


    No. You can easily come to the conclusion Brady would have gotten hurt behind this OL. Definitely couldn’t perform behind this OL. Sure Brady has played behind bad OLs. He has never, however, played behind historically terrible OLs. And for the large portion of his career, he’s played behind league average to top 10 OLs.

    Brady can manipulate the pocket, but he is still a statue in the pocket.

    You cannot for say "you can easily come to the conclusion" here. It is something that will never happen, and furthermore these players have completely different styles of play. It is not a foregone conclusion either way. Especially since Brady is the type of QB that makes a linemans job very easy. If he sees a mismatch at the LOS he defaults to another play and changes protections, or makes corrections. Brady is also very good at manipulating blockers, and getting the ball out of his hands quickly. As far as injuries go, Brady is the kind of QB that just goes down when he sees there is no chance, or just throws the ball out of bounds. He knows when to hold 'em and he knows when to fold 'em. That combined with his quick release makes it so he is able to play in the NFL at his old age at an elite level without getting injured.

    Russ on the other hand is the antithesis to the Brady way. Instead of stepping up in the pocket he has a bad habit of retreating back which makes defenders have an easy angle. One of the core skills an offensive lineman uses is just simply deflection. Rerouting the D-lineman past the QB using the D-linemans momentum. This fundamental becomes useless if your QB is hanging 15+ yards past the LOS. Furthermore, Wilson tends to hold onto the ball longer than any QB in the league. A lot of times Brown looked very confused as to where he should be when we traded for him. Wilson is also very bad at managing the pocket. I've seen him manufacture pressure on himself by walking into a defenders area, or not having a good grasp what is going on around him in the pocket. He is able to get around his poor pocket presence by his phenomenal agility, and elusiveness. As I said, it like watching people trying to tackle Barry Sanders.

    Did Russell Wilson have to deal with a bad situation? Yes. Can we say for sure that Brady would be better than Wilson in this situation, or perhaps be worse than Wilson in this situation? No. There are good arguments for both sides, and honestly I find it a waste of time since Brady will never play on the 2017 Seahawks. All we're doing is coming up with a lovely piece of fiction that suits our world view here.
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  • KiwiHawk wrote:It's not runing a play doomed to fail 3-4 times. It's knowing what your opposition has seen on tape from you and running it that way once to let them confirm their assessment of that set, then crossing them up later. Walsh played the long game. he'd sacrifice individual plays for the overall game plan. Of course you can waste a play here and there when you have Joe Montana/Steve Young throwing to Jerry Rice if you need to convert a 3rd down.


    Even if Wilson goes off script you still get to see how they react to the play called, because most of the time when he goes off script it is late in the play, unless they get a jailbreak rush on him, and then I am pretty sure any coach would prefer him running than getting hit.
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  • So Bradys pass blocking oline in his career

    The worst he had and only once was 26th and he did not have a great year, QB rating 86.5 18tds 12ints not good. The best he had was 1st and he had an MVP year. His avg for his career is 11th

    Wilsons worst was 32nd in pass blocking, he had a good year 101.2 QB rating, 26 tds 9 ints. His best was 20th, his league avg is 26th. Think about that Wilson avg pass blocking oline ranking is Bradys worst year and Bradys avg pass blocking oline Wilson has never even come close to. So yeah huge difference and you can easily make the leap that Brady would not have done well behind this oline. Imagine if Wilson had the 112th ranked pass blocking oline for most of his career so far. WOW All data was from footballoutsider.com and ESPN
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  • Hawk1217 wrote:So Bradys pass blocking oline in his career

    The worst he had and only once was 26th and he did not have a great year, QB rating 86.5 18tds 12ints not good. The best he had was 1st and he had an MVP year. His avg for his career is 11th

    Wilsons worst was 32nd in pass blocking, he had a good year 101.2 QB rating, 26 tds 9 ints. His best was 20th, his league avg is 26th. Think about that Wilson avg pass blocking oline ranking is Bradys worst year and Bradys avg pass blocking oline Wilson has never even come close to. So yeah huge difference and you can easily make the leap that Brady would not have done well behind this oline. Imagine if Wilson had the 112th ranked pass blocking oline for most of his career so far. WOW All data was from footballoutsider.com and ESPN

    You're completely misrepresenting my argument. I am saying that Wilson has the tendency to make offensive lines look worse than they really are, and Brady is conversely the opposite. They approach the game in two drastically different fashions. That is not the kind of thing that shows up in these kind of statistics such as "offensive line rankings". There is a good reason why Brady's offensive lines always rank so high. The reason being the way they approach the game is completely different. Wilson at times will straight up walk himself into sacks, and create phantom pressure, or bail from a clean pocket inexplicably. He also does not give up on a seemingly doomed play because he has that ability. It's a double edged sword.

    Wilson holds the ball longer than any other QB, and does not have much pocket presence. Those two things alone will negatively affect sack rates, and offensive line "rankings". The play between a line and the QB is symbiotic, one can make the other look better, it goes both ways. Russ can make impossible things happen, but on the same token he takes a lot of sacks, and negative plays trying to make a big play. That type of style will always make a line look bad on paper. You're trying to look at these statistics in a vacuum to support your view on this issue. In reality it is much more nuanced than many on here want to admit.

    What would Brady do here? Nobody knows, and it is entirely hypothetical and fictitious. It amounts to Seahawk fans patting themselves on the back, and saying SEE my guy is better than the other guy. It is foolish mental gymnastics. The truth of the matter is Wilson faltered when the Seahawks needed him the most, and we didn't make the post season. He had a giant burden on his shoulders, yes, however 10/10 not making the post season will take you out of the running for MVP, and rightfully so. With or without Wilson we still couldn't make the playoffs. That fact alone makes the 2017 Seahawks entirely irrelevant. Brady, and Wilson had similar stats, and Brady made it to the post season. You shouldn't be surprised that he got the MVP award.
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  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    Hawk1217 wrote:So Bradys pass blocking oline in his career

    The worst he had and only once was 26th and he did not have a great year, QB rating 86.5 18tds 12ints not good. The best he had was 1st and he had an MVP year. His avg for his career is 11th

    Wilsons worst was 32nd in pass blocking, he had a good year 101.2 QB rating, 26 tds 9 ints. His best was 20th, his league avg is 26th. Think about that Wilson avg pass blocking oline ranking is Bradys worst year and Bradys avg pass blocking oline Wilson has never even come close to. So yeah huge difference and you can easily make the leap that Brady would not have done well behind this oline. Imagine if Wilson had the 112th ranked pass blocking oline for most of his career so far. WOW All data was from footballoutsider.com and ESPN

    You're completely misrepresenting my argument. I am saying that Wilson has the tendency to make offensive lines look worse than they really are, and Brady is conversely the opposite. They approach the game in two drastically different fashions. That is not the kind of thing that shows up in these kind of statistics such as "offensive line rankings". There is a good reason why Brady's offensive lines always rank so high. The reason being the way they approach the game is completely different. Wilson at times will straight up walk himself into sacks, and create phantom pressure, or bail from a clean pocket inexplicably. He also does not give up on a seemingly doomed play because he has that ability. It's a double edged sword.

    Wilson holds the ball longer than any other QB, and does not have much pocket presence. Those two things alone will negatively affect sack rates, and offensive line "rankings". The play between a line and the QB is symbiotic, one can make the other look better, it goes both ways. Russ can make impossible things happen, but on the same token he takes a lot of sacks, and negative plays trying to make a big play. That type of style will always make a line look bad on paper. You're trying to look at these statistics in a vacuum to support your view on this issue. In reality it is much more nuanced than many on here want to admit.

    What would Brady do here? Nobody knows, and it is entirely hypothetical and fictitious. It amounts to Seahawk fans patting themselves on the back, and saying SEE my guy is better than the other guy. It is foolish mental gymnastics. The truth of the matter is Wilson faltered when the Seahawks needed him the most, and we didn't make the post season. He had a giant burden on his shoulders, yes, however 10/10 not making the post season will take you out of the running for MVP, and rightfully so. With or without Wilson we still couldn't make the playoffs. That fact alone makes the 2017 Seahawks entirely irrelevant. Brady, and Wilson had similar stats, and Brady made it to the post season. You shouldn't be surprised that he got the MVP award.


    I disagree with 90% of what you said. But to each there own.
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  • Well, if someone would actually BLOCK for him consistently, he would be able to feel a hell of a lot more comfortable back there. Instead of having to run for his life and/or have that timer in his head that assumes he's about to get crushed by a defensive player who was unblocked, yet again.
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Well, if someone would actually BLOCK for him consistently, he would be able to feel a hell of a lot more comfortable back there. Instead of having to run for his life and/or have that timer in his head that assumes he's about to get crushed by a defensive player who was unblocked, yet again.


    This, ESPN had a stat and sorry no link, was on one of the shows, where it showed the QBs under pressure the quickest and Wilson was #1 buy a huge number of times and by at least a full second on avg. My biggest issue with the whole Brady helps his line thing is, you cant really prove it. I mean is it Brady or is it Bellechek with his play calling and design helping the oline. Since Brady does not call the plays or create them that tells me it is Bellechek. Just as Wilson does not call or design the plays here. How many times have we seen all go routes? A lot they take time. While some would say if it is not there in 2 seconds or less then throw it away, you can do that every time or you don't move the ball. Also how many sacks has Wilson saved, I am thinking way more than he creates, based on the 5 games I rewatched over the weekend.
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  • More check downs and screen passes would help this offense immensely. Not to be confused with bubble screens :lol:
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:More check downs and screen passes would help this offense immensely. Not to be confused with bubble screens :lol:



    Bevell had very few usable hot reads also, it was go deep or go no where a lot, Schotty will take 5 if 50 isn't there and Wilson will need to read the field to know which guy is going to be his hot out. Schotty puts a lot more on the QB. if Wilson misses the read he will also hear about it, Schotty doers one thing and that's hold the QB accountable, something Brees commented on in making him better.
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  • Yeah, I've heard that. Should be a good thing, and I'm sure Russ will listen.
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  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    Steve2222 wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    ivotuk wrote:Put Brady behind our offensive line, and he would have been on IR before the 1st quarter of the season was over. And this team would have been 2-14.

    And there's only one defensive stat that matters in the NFL, scoring defense. You can use all the acronyms and formulas you want, but the #1 defense in the NFL isn't the one that has pretty numbers, or the one that allows the fewest yards, it's the one that allows the fewest points.

    Russell can only do so much, the rest of the team failed him. He didn't have time to launch deep throws, and it's a wonder he played as well as he did at the end of the season after spending 12 weeks getting hammered, and running for his life. NO QB in the NFL could have done as well as Russell Wilson did last year on a horrid team.

    Yet he never complained. I guarantee you Aaron Rodgers or Kaepernick would have been whining by week 5.

    The argument "put Brady behind our offensive line" is not any sort of argument. For one it is something that is never going to happen, thus it cannot be proven or disproven. We can only judge what we have in front of us. Secondly, Brady has played behind some bad lines in his career, and he still looked good. Brady, too is good at avoiding pressure, he just does so in a different manner than Russ does. It doesn't show up in the highlight reels, but you can see it if you watch the guy on tape.

    Brady avoids pressure by getting rid of the ball quickly, and making subtle little movements in the pocket to set up his blockers. These are skills that Russell Wilson is not very good at. In the pocket he has always looked like a chicken with his head cut off even in some of the better years of O-line play. There was one play in particular that I recall from this season of him sitting in a clean pocket, and then running around in a circle, then unwittingly running into a defenders arms sacking himself. He is quite possibly one of the worst QB's in the NFL when it comes to pocket management. This would sink most QB's careers, but fortunately for Russ he is the greatest scrambler since Fran Tarkenton (I say Fran and not Vick because while Vick was fast, and great runner he wasn't particularly hard to tackle in the pocket). You can also see statistics for how long on average a QB holds onto the ball. In all years except 2015 Russell Wilson was number 1 or 2 in most time with ball in the hands.

    Russ is a great QB, and is quite possibly the biggest playmaker in the NFL. The sheer amount of BS he can pull off is staggering. He can pull of feats that no other QB in the NFL could ever pull off. He is the Barry Sanders of the QB world. Like Barry Sanders he has times where he can't get out of his own way (Sanders has the most negative yards and TFL is NFL history). This leads to uneven play, and large periods of games where he is irrelevant. Fortunately for us when he does come to bat he is usually unstoppable. I just wonder what changed in 2015 when compared to the rest of his career. I really think Pete's offensive philosophy is holding Russ back as a player, and hindering his development.


    No. You can easily come to the conclusion Brady would have gotten hurt behind this OL. Definitely couldn’t perform behind this OL. Sure Brady has played behind bad OLs. He has never, however, played behind historically terrible OLs. And for the large portion of his career, he’s played behind league average to top 10 OLs.

    Brady can manipulate the pocket, but he is still a statue in the pocket.

    You cannot for say "you can easily come to the conclusion" here. It is something that will never happen, and furthermore these players have completely different styles of play. It is not a foregone conclusion either way. Especially since Brady is the type of QB that makes a linemans job very easy. If he sees a mismatch at the LOS he defaults to another play and changes protections, or makes corrections. Brady is also very good at manipulating blockers, and getting the ball out of his hands quickly. As far as injuries go, Brady is the kind of QB that just goes down when he sees there is no chance, or just throws the ball out of bounds. He knows when to hold 'em and he knows when to fold 'em. That combined with his quick release makes it so he is able to play in the NFL at his old age at an elite level without getting injured. Russ on the other hand is the antithesis to the Brady way. Instead of stepping up in the pocket he has a bad habit of retreating back which makes defenders have an easy angle. One of the core skills an offensive lineman uses is just simply deflection. Rerouting the D-lineman past the QB using the D-linemans momentum. This fundamental becomes useless if your QB is hanging 15+ yards past the LOS. Furthermore, Wilson tends to hold onto the ball longer than any QB in the league. A lot of times Brown looked very confused as to where he should be when we traded for him. Wilson is also very bad at managing the pocket. I've seen him manufacture pressure on himself by walking into a defenders area, or not having a good grasp what is going on around him in the pocket. He is able to get around his poor pocket presence by his phenomenal agility, and elusiveness. As I said, it like watching people trying to tackle Barry Sanders.

    Did Russell Wilson have to deal with a bad situation? Yes. Can we say for sure that Brady would be better than Wilson in this situation, or perhaps be worse than Wilson in this situation? No. There are good arguments for both sides, and honestly I find it a waste of time since Brady will never play on the 2017 Seahawks. All we're doing is coming up with a lovely piece of fiction that suits our world view here.

    Good stuff in these post(s)..Oh I know you guys dislike Brady but the things he does are well explained
    in the bolded section,things I'd love RW to do as I have said many times but I won't bore you further.
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  • IndyHawk wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    Steve2222 wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:The argument "put Brady behind our offensive line" is not any sort of argument. For one it is something that is never going to happen, thus it cannot be proven or disproven. We can only judge what we have in front of us. Secondly, Brady has played behind some bad lines in his career, and he still looked good. Brady, too is good at avoiding pressure, he just does so in a different manner than Russ does. It doesn't show up in the highlight reels, but you can see it if you watch the guy on tape.

    Brady avoids pressure by getting rid of the ball quickly, and making subtle little movements in the pocket to set up his blockers. These are skills that Russell Wilson is not very good at. In the pocket he has always looked like a chicken with his head cut off even in some of the better years of O-line play. There was one play in particular that I recall from this season of him sitting in a clean pocket, and then running around in a circle, then unwittingly running into a defenders arms sacking himself. He is quite possibly one of the worst QB's in the NFL when it comes to pocket management. This would sink most QB's careers, but fortunately for Russ he is the greatest scrambler since Fran Tarkenton (I say Fran and not Vick because while Vick was fast, and great runner he wasn't particularly hard to tackle in the pocket). You can also see statistics for how long on average a QB holds onto the ball. In all years except 2015 Russell Wilson was number 1 or 2 in most time with ball in the hands.

    Russ is a great QB, and is quite possibly the biggest playmaker in the NFL. The sheer amount of BS he can pull off is staggering. He can pull of feats that no other QB in the NFL could ever pull off. He is the Barry Sanders of the QB world. Like Barry Sanders he has times where he can't get out of his own way (Sanders has the most negative yards and TFL is NFL history). This leads to uneven play, and large periods of games where he is irrelevant. Fortunately for us when he does come to bat he is usually unstoppable. I just wonder what changed in 2015 when compared to the rest of his career. I really think Pete's offensive philosophy is holding Russ back as a player, and hindering his development.


    No. You can easily come to the conclusion Brady would have gotten hurt behind this OL. Definitely couldn’t perform behind this OL. Sure Brady has played behind bad OLs. He has never, however, played behind historically terrible OLs. And for the large portion of his career, he’s played behind league average to top 10 OLs.

    Brady can manipulate the pocket, but he is still a statue in the pocket.

    You cannot for say "you can easily come to the conclusion" here. It is something that will never happen, and furthermore these players have completely different styles of play. It is not a foregone conclusion either way. Especially since Brady is the type of QB that makes a linemans job very easy. If he sees a mismatch at the LOS he defaults to another play and changes protections, or makes corrections. Brady is also very good at manipulating blockers, and getting the ball out of his hands quickly. As far as injuries go, Brady is the kind of QB that just goes down when he sees there is no chance, or just throws the ball out of bounds. He knows when to hold 'em and he knows when to fold 'em. That combined with his quick release makes it so he is able to play in the NFL at his old age at an elite level without getting injured. Russ on the other hand is the antithesis to the Brady way. Instead of stepping up in the pocket he has a bad habit of retreating back which makes defenders have an easy angle. One of the core skills an offensive lineman uses is just simply deflection. Rerouting the D-lineman past the QB using the D-linemans momentum. This fundamental becomes useless if your QB is hanging 15+ yards past the LOS. Furthermore, Wilson tends to hold onto the ball longer than any QB in the league. A lot of times Brown looked very confused as to where he should be when we traded for him. Wilson is also very bad at managing the pocket. I've seen him manufacture pressure on himself by walking into a defenders area, or not having a good grasp what is going on around him in the pocket. He is able to get around his poor pocket presence by his phenomenal agility, and elusiveness. As I said, it like watching people trying to tackle Barry Sanders.

    Did Russell Wilson have to deal with a bad situation? Yes. Can we say for sure that Brady would be better than Wilson in this situation, or perhaps be worse than Wilson in this situation? No. There are good arguments for both sides, and honestly I find it a waste of time since Brady will never play on the 2017 Seahawks. All we're doing is coming up with a lovely piece of fiction that suits our world view here.

    Good stuff in these post(s)..Oh I know you guys dislike Brady but the things he does are well explained
    in the bolded section,things I'd love RW to do as I have said many times but I won't bore you further.


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  • Wilson makes his OL look bad. I’ve heard it all now lol.
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  • Exactly. Well, you know, everything else is Wilson's fault so.........
    Now, it's his fault the guys in front of him can't block :34853_doh:
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Exactly. Well, you know, everything else is Wilson's fault so.........
    Now, it's his fault the guys in front of him can't block :34853_doh:


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  • Steve2222 wrote:Wilson makes his OL look bad. I’ve heard it all now lol.


    It's true sometimes and it's also true the OL looks plenty bad entirely on its own most of the time. For example, Wilson takes really deep drops and that makes it difficult for the OL to simply push the rushers around the edge of the pocket because the pocket is so deep.
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  • adeltaY wrote:
    Steve2222 wrote:Wilson makes his OL look bad. I’ve heard it all now lol.


    It's true sometimes and it's also true the OL looks plenty bad entirely on its own most of the time. For example, Wilson takes really deep drops and that makes it difficult for the OL to simply push the rushers around the edge of the pocket because the pocket is so deep.


    The problem with that is you are presuming several things: 1- he only does this in the games, given they practice all this against our defense they should know how to block for this. 2 that he is the one deciding how far to drop. Has it occurred to you the coaches are having him do this to give him an extra second because they don't trust the line or they called long developing plays? That is the biggest issue with most of what is posted negatively on Wilson it's all assumptions, with little to support it. An example was one a read before I joined were some said he cant throw over the middle, with any accuracy. Meanwhile, the facts showed he had a high completion % and Qb rating over the middle. The facts are he has played behind one of the worse pass blocking oline in the league every year. Trying to put that on him is just wrong.
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  • It's Russell Wilson. Global Warming is his fault as well :lol:
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  • Hawk1217 wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:
    Steve2222 wrote:Wilson makes his OL look bad. I’ve heard it all now lol.


    It's true sometimes and it's also true the OL looks plenty bad entirely on its own most of the time. For example, Wilson takes really deep drops and that makes it difficult for the OL to simply push the rushers around the edge of the pocket because the pocket is so deep.


    The problem with that is you are presuming several things: 1- he only does this in the games, given they practice all this against our defense they should know how to block for this. 2 that he is the one deciding how far to drop. Has it occurred to you the coaches are having him do this to give him an extra second because they don't trust the line or they called long developing plays? That is the biggest issue with most of what is posted negatively on Wilson it's all assumptions, with little to support it. An example was one a read before I joined were some said he cant throw over the middle, with any accuracy. Meanwhile, the facts showed he had a high completion % and Qb rating over the middle. The facts are he has played behind one of the worse pass blocking oline in the league every year. Trying to put that on him is just wrong.

    It was the short passes over the middle that some of us are bringing up
    and there has been graphics posted on here to that in many different threads
    with RW in it so you can see them in archives.
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  • IndyHawk wrote:
    Hawk1217 wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:
    Steve2222 wrote:Wilson makes his OL look bad. I’ve heard it all now lol.


    It's true sometimes and it's also true the OL looks plenty bad entirely on its own most of the time. For example, Wilson takes really deep drops and that makes it difficult for the OL to simply push the rushers around the edge of the pocket because the pocket is so deep.


    The problem with that is you are presuming several things: 1- he only does this in the games, given they practice all this against our defense they should know how to block for this. 2 that he is the one deciding how far to drop. Has it occurred to you the coaches are having him do this to give him an extra second because they don't trust the line or they called long developing plays? That is the biggest issue with most of what is posted negatively on Wilson it's all assumptions, with little to support it. An example was one a read before I joined were some said he cant throw over the middle, with any accuracy. Meanwhile, the facts showed he had a high completion % and Qb rating over the middle. The facts are he has played behind one of the worse pass blocking oline in the league every year. Trying to put that on him is just wrong.

    It was the short passes over the middle that some of us are bringing up
    and there has been graphics posted on here to that in many different threads
    with RW in it so you can see them in archives.


    And again all the ones I saw made it clear he does, can and has a high completion % and Qb rating doing it. Now are there some QBs who do it more...yes, are there some who do it less...yes. Also that thread, the one I read, perfectly illustrated my point. First, it was he can't, Then when it was proved he can, then it went to but not very accurately, then that was proved wrong, then it became not for a high Qb rating. Then that was proven wrong, it was changed to well not as much as other QBs and that is Wilson problem. The lengths that some want to go to bag on the guy is mind-boggling. I mean Yeah he is not perfect no QB is to include Rodgers and Brady. But the constant, almost obsessive by some to specifically make it clear Wilson is not great, or not that great, or has faults is well pathetic. Point in case the oline, every Qb in the league at times hurts and helps their oline in different ways, to include Brady. However the great ones, Wilson included, do a lot more helping than hurting.
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  • I agree RW doesn't have issues throwing over the middle, short, whatever. I think he's shown he can make those throws so we are in concert there. With respect to the deep dropback, it could definitely be a coaching issue, we will see if it improves with the new regime.

    He does have faults, though I think that's problem #5 or #6 in our list of offensive woes so I'm not worried. This was not a great season for him though. Throwing 21 interceptable passes from week 1-8 and 32 overall for the season is atypical and not good. I'm confident with Schotty coaching him, he will get that under control.
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  • adeltaY wrote:I agree RW doesn't have issues throwing over the middle, short, whatever. I think he's shown he can make those throws so we are in concert there. With respect to the deep dropback, it could definitely be a coaching issue, we will see if it improves with the new regime.

    He does have faults, though I think that's problem #5 or #6 in our list of offensive woes so I'm not worried. This was not a great season for him though. Throwing 21 interceptable passes from week 1-8 and 32 overall for the season is atypical and not good. I'm confident with Schotty coaching him, he will get that under control.



    Agreed on all front except, but now we are looking at interceptable balls, not just Ints. So one, were did you get that number? 2 how does it compare to other Qbs. If we are looking at those are we also going to look at the actual Int that was because the receiver mishandled a good pass, or the drops and add them back to the numbers.

    So Footballoutsiders.com has data on this Wilson had 11 int during the Season his adjusted was 15 this included drops by the Defender, interceptable balls ect. That's only 4 more, and far from the 32 you listed. Heck Bradys adjusted was 13 so Wilson is in good company

    https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/adjusted-interceptions-2017
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  • I got mine from Cian Fahey's 2018 QB catalogue. He had at least all of the eight from the Washington game on his twitter feed in gif form as well as I think the rest from weeks 1-8, but he deleted his twitter so I can't pull up the thread with the Wilson INTable passes. I watched all the gifs and all of them looked like interceptable passes to me. I wish every interceptable play was logged with a timestamp so we could check for ourselves, but neither FO nor Fahey made that available. Not sure what the difference in criteria is between his and FO, especially since he used to work for FO. For what it's worth, he had Brady credited with 33 interceptable passes, but since Brady threw more passes, his rate is 4.6% as opposed to Wilson's 5.8%.

    I'm trying to find more sources, but it's difficult. The best I could do was PFF, which has a turnover-worth throw%, which I'd imagine is just interceptable passes. They had Wilson at 2.5%, which ranked 21st in the league. FO also has him at 2.5%, but that ranks him 12th by their charging. Fahey has him at 27th in INTable pass rate. Not sure who to go by, if the numbers were different but the rankings were similar we could write it off as a systematic error that inflates/deflates the absolute but not relative values, but it ain't so.
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  • The difference between a interception or a tip and pick is inches in the NFL many times, many are on receivers as also,especially body catchers where a ball will bounce and or hit a pad because they let the ball get to them versus guiding to them with their hands.
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  • adeltaY wrote:I got mine from Cian Fahey's 2018 QB catalogue. He had at least all of the eight from the Washington game on his twitter feed in gif form as well as I think the rest from weeks 1-8, but he deleted his twitter so I can't pull up the thread with the Wilson INTable passes. I watched all the gifs and all of them looked like interceptable passes to me. I wish every interceptable play was logged with a timestamp so we could check for ourselves, but neither FO nor Fahey made that available. Not sure what the difference in criteria is between his and FO, especially since he used to work for FO. For what it's worth, he had Brady credited with 33 interceptable passes, but since Brady threw more passes, his rate is 4.6% as opposed to Wilson's 5.8%.

    I'm trying to find more sources, but it's difficult. The best I could do was PFF, which has a turnover-worth throw%, which I'd imagine is just interceptable passes. They had Wilson at 2.5%, which ranked 21st in the league. FO also has him at 2.5%, but that ranks him 12th by their charging. Fahey has him at 27th in INTable pass rate. Not sure who to go by, if the numbers were different but the rankings were similar we could write it off as a systematic error that inflates/deflates the absolute but not relative values, but it ain't so.



    To be honest this is really a nothing burger as there are a lot of variables unaccounted for like, receivers running the wrong route, deflected passes, the score and when you through etc etc. This is not something we should even be worried about, I mean whats next how many yards an RB can get if they carried the ball in the other hand. If we are going to do interceptable balls, then we need to do catchable balls, YAC available, you know where there was YAC but the receiver decided to just go to the ground. At some point enough with the would of, should of, could of, stats. Let's go with what actually was, 11 ints far from a bad number given he also led the league in TDs.
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  • I get where you're coming from, but those concerns shouldn't discourage us from contextualizing a raw stats like number of INTs or number of TDs. For example, with INTs you mention we can't know playcalls, WRs running the wrong route, etc. This is true, and there will always be unknowns factors with regards to football analysis, but that shouldn't discourage us from filling in what gaps we can to arrive at a better understanding of what really happened. The INTable pass stat takes into account non-QB INTs (tipped balls, WR ran wrong route (have to use understanding of the game/QB to take a best guess at this), WR dropped the ball, etc.) that count in favor of the QB as well as balls the defender should have caught but didn't, which would count against the QB. That gives us so much more info about what happened than just the INT number.

    Let's take QB X and QB Y. Both started 16 games and had similar pass attempt numbers (small amount of context to make this comparison possible). QB X threw 8 INTs and QB Y threw 13 INTs. Who's better at taking care of the ball? Most would say QB X. Now, say we look at INTable passes. QB X had 12 picks dropped by defenders and QB Y had 3 dropped by defenders. QB Y is close to even with QB X, maybe a little safer with the ball. It's not a would have, could have, should have stat. It is real and provides context for what actually happened on the field.

    Yes, we can't know exactly what happened with the route, BUT the announcers often suss it out immediately, as do the film guys after. Coaches/QBs often detail why a certain INT happened in post-game pressers, and you can often tell in-game by the reaction from the QB to the WR after the pick (Rivers is great at showing this). Not an exact science, but it's much more informative than just looking at INT numbers in a void.
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  • adeltaY wrote:I get where you're coming from, but those concerns shouldn't discourage us from contextualizing a raw stats like number of INTs or number of TDs. For example, with INTs you mention we can't know playcalls, WRs running the wrong route, etc. This is true, and there will always be unknowns factors with regards to football analysis, but that shouldn't discourage us from filling in what gaps we can to arrive at a better understanding of what really happened. The INTable pass stat takes into account non-QB INTs (tipped balls, WR ran wrong route (have to use understanding of the game/QB to take a best guess at this), WR dropped the ball, etc.) that count in favor of the QB as well as balls the defender should have caught but didn't, which would count against the QB. That gives us so much more info about what happened than just the INT number.

    Let's take QB X and QB Y. Both started 16 games and had similar pass attempt numbers (small amount of context to make this comparison possible). QB X threw 8 INTs and QB Y threw 13 INTs. Who's better at taking care of the ball? Most would say QB X. Now, say we look at INTable passes. QB X had 12 picks dropped by defenders and QB Y had 3 dropped by defenders. QB Y is close to even with QB X, maybe a little safer with the ball. It's not a would have, could have, should have stat. It is real and provides context for what actually happened on the field.

    Yes, we can't know exactly what happened with the route, BUT the announcers often suss it out immediately, as do the film guys after. Coaches/QBs often detail why a certain INT happened in post-game pressers, and you can often tell in-game by the reaction from the QB to the WR after the pick (Rivers is great at showing this). Not an exact science, but it's much more informative than just looking at INT numbers in a void.


    At some point, you get into analysis paralysis and it is worthless. As I said worrying about interceptable passes is silly as we are playing the what if game. If that is where we are going to be able to come up with a negative about a player, any player then some of us need to look at ourselves and decide what our motivations are.
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  • Funny thing about the title. I once met Russell's cousin Anthony. Huge Hawks fan!! Small world, and many Anthony's seem to REALLY love the guy. :mrgreen:
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  • I really disagree, but maybe we are coming from different perspectives. What I'm trying to say is if you are evaluating how safe a QB is with the ball, interceptable passes is a more wholistic metric for judging that trait. I'd argue passer rating is a "worthless" statistic by your philosophy as it takes into account about as many different stats as interceptable passes.
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  • I would also want to know how many of those interceptions took place when playing from behind with less then two minutes and Wilson is taking more chances with the ball then he would in the first 58 minutes ?
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  • chris98251 wrote:I would also want to know how many of those interceptions took place when playing from behind with less then two minutes and Wilson is taking more chances with the ball then he would in the first 58 minutes ?


    A great question Chris. I'm scanning my memory files and nothing comes up but I'll check later. FOs stat takes into account Hail Mary INTs as does Faheys so for example Watson's third INT against us doesn't count against him. It would be nice to expand that out to what you are talking about as well.

    Actually, now that I think about it, wasn't Wilson'sINT against the Texans within two minutes on an attempted game winning drive?
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  • adeltaY wrote:I really disagree, but maybe we are coming from different perspectives. What I'm trying to say is if you are evaluating how safe a QB is with the ball, interceptable passes is a more wholistic metric for judging that trait. I'd argue passer rating is a "worthless" statistic by your philosophy as it takes into account about as many different stats as interceptable passes.


    In theory, I agree but as has been pointed out there are too many variables into interceptable passes than simply it's interceptable. I mean technically every pass is interceptable if someone is in the right place, if the wind holds a ball being thrown out of bounds it's interceptable if someone is in the area, etc etc. To me it is just a meaningless stat that says little by itself without a lot of context around it. Another example 3rd and long so you through it really long (essential a punt) and see if you can make something happen. Like I said way too many variables and really a worthless stat. Also getting back the stats it was far from the 33 originally mentioned, and he was far from the worse. The only linked showed was FO and they had his adjustable at only 15. So unless another link pops up that is what we have and again far from the worse, and far form something to worry about.
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  • So you're saying that we should only look at actual INT numbers to judge how safe a QB is with the ball because only the result matters not the process?

    In that case would you believe Matt Ryan's TD/INT ratio accurately reflected how well he played this year given eight of those INTs were not his fault? Source: http://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_ ... ball-focus
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  • adeltaY wrote:So you're saying that we should only look at actual INT numbers to judge how safe a QB is with the ball because only the result matters not the process?

    In that case would you believe Matt Ryan's TD/INT ratio accurately reflected how well he played this year given eight of those INTs were not his fault? Source: http://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_ ... ball-focus


    One what I said was the only proof of any fact we have it from FO who have Wilsons number at 15 far below your 33 number, and therefore nothing to worry about. Also as it relates to the whole interceptable number there are many variables to take into account, variable that we have no way of knowing, that makes it worthless. As to Matt Ryan, frankly I don't care, he is not the QB of my team, nor a QB I would want the QB of my team to aspire too. Also, I might add so far you are the only one who seems to think it is a big deal. If you really think it is a big deal, then you should also think catchable balls stat is important, catchable TDs should be important. I can go on and on with these what if stats, however, in the end, they are just what if. Once again the stats is a what if stat, I could easily say what if a receiver had caught the ball instead of the defender. What if, a great thing for this looking for something that does not exist. Also once again even though I believe it is worthless, Wilsons interceptable passes was only 15, 4 more than his actual total and far from the worse in the NFL, and as such is nothing to worry about.
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  • Ah fair enough. I'm a Hawks fan too but I love the analysis of the game and learning about the different stats we can use to evaluate players so yes all the stats you listed are valuable to me. I did post a link to the PFF stat that had him at 21st in the league in turnover worthy throws, which is a bit worrisome IMO but looking at his body of work over six years, I'm confident it was an aberration he will bounce back from, especially with better protection.
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  • adeltaY wrote:Ah fair enough. I'm a Hawks fan too but I love the analysis of the game and learning about the different stats we can use to evaluate players so yes all the stats you listed are valuable to me. I did post a link to the PFF stat that had him at 21st in the league in turnover worthy throws, which is a bit worrisome IMO but looking at his body of work over six years, I'm confident it was an aberration he will bounce back from, especially with better protection.



    Agreed!!!
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