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MB on Pete Carroll

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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:06 pm
  • pittpnthrs wrote:I have no stats to back up my claim and dont feel the need to look it up


    pittpnthrs wrote:its just there's two camps to sit with and we chose different sides. The issues are obvious, its just who do you want to blame.


    I don't think you can combine those two snippets in the same posts and be convincing.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:01 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:I have no stats to back up my claim and dont feel the need to look it up


    pittpnthrs wrote:its just there's two camps to sit with and we chose different sides. The issues are obvious, its just who do you want to blame.


    I don't think you can combine those two snippets in the same posts and be convincing.


    Not trying to convince anybody. Just stated how I feel.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:24 pm
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:30 pm
  • KitsapGuy wrote:


    so basically Pete's saying Bennett is lying about the book but won't speculate as to his reasons behind it. Normally I'd just expect to hear no response at all, or a generic type response. To come out and say that he didn't bring a book to meetings when Bennett claims to have been looking at books during meetings says a lot about this IMO

    EDIT: Found this link http://q13fox.com/2018/04/23/seattle-seahawks-pete-carroll-and-john-schneider-address-bennett-coaching-turnover-and-more-at-press-conference/ There's a brief video of Pete saying the above quote for those who want to hear how it was said.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:43 pm


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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:51 pm
  • kidhawk wrote:
    KitsapGuy wrote:


    so basically Pete's saying Bennett is lying about the book but won't speculate as to his reasons behind it. Normally I'd just expect to hear no response at all, or a generic type response. To come out and say that he didn't bring a book to meetings when Bennett claims to have been looking at books during meetings says a lot about this IMO

    EDIT: Found this link http://q13fox.com/2018/04/23/seattle-seahawks-pete-carroll-and-john-schneider-address-bennett-coaching-turnover-and-more-at-press-conference/ There's a brief video of Pete saying the above quote for those who want to hear how it was said.


    After listening to it in context it sounds more like he was implying that he didn't believe him, but not outright saying he lied. The most telling part though is when he mentions about those who aren't here anymore.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:20 pm
  • Carroll is P'd Off. :D
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:51 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    mrt144 wrote:Pete the tactician undermines Pete the strategist.


    I'd change this to Pete the philosopher undermines Pete the strategist.

    Let's be honest, what makes Pete such a great coach is also his worst enemy at times. He's one of the greatest motivators of all time, he knows how to relate to his players, make them feel empowered and unleashes that into what he wants to get out of that player.

    BUT, his glass is always half full approach to not knowing when players are a lost cause and that everything is fixable because he's such an amazing motivator makes for all the drama and nonsense that has affected this team at times, and certainly the last couple of years.

    Pretty spot on analysis. :2thumbs:
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:25 pm
  • kidhawk wrote:
    kidhawk wrote:
    KitsapGuy wrote:


    so basically Pete's saying Bennett is lying about the book but won't speculate as to his reasons behind it. Normally I'd just expect to hear no response at all, or a generic type response. To come out and say that he didn't bring a book to meetings when Bennett claims to have been looking at books during meetings says a lot about this IMO

    EDIT: Found this link http://q13fox.com/2018/04/23/seattle-seahawks-pete-carroll-and-john-schneider-address-bennett-coaching-turnover-and-more-at-press-conference/ There's a brief video of Pete saying the above quote for those who want to hear how it was said.


    After listening to it in context it sounds more like he was implying that he didn't believe him, but not outright saying he lied. The most telling part though is when he mentions about those who aren't here anymore.


    Just take it for what it is. Pete was finally fed up with MB and shipped him off because he didn't want to follow directions. Finally "Big Balls" Pete making plays. Thank God this team got it's head on right. That was possibly the greatest pre-draft press conference I've ever seen and makes me even a bigger fan.

    Everyone should be excited for this coming year.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:55 pm
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    rjas77 wrote:With roughly eight minutes left in the 4th, the Offense had a 10 point lead. Truth is it was the D that lost SB 49


    The entire secondary was playing with injuries that most other players wouldnt have dreamed of playing with and the defense was minus a premier pass rusher in Avril and they still gave the offense a 10 point cushion against the greatest coach and QB ever. Damn them for expecting our offense to put up a point or two along the way. The game was lost when our coaching staff called the worst play in football history,,,,,,,on offense.

    People seem and act surprised that Bennett and Sherm are talking about Pete for some reason. They wont be the last ones. Theres more to come. The person who said that SB49 destroyed this team was right. Thats on Pete.


    and yet...despite all you posted the O still had a 10 point lead with 8 minutes left. Let that sink in cuz if what you posted was what actually happened...the Patriots should have INCREASED their lead just before halftime instead of being tied.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:58 pm
  • I think Pete is actually a genius on defense. The problem is he refuses to find a genius to run his offense and get out of that guy's way. He wants to be apart of that too and he wants his hand in everything. This is Pete's show which leads to it being a double edged sword unfortunately.

    It hearkens back to when Holmgren was stripped of his GM powers. I would love to see Pete removed from the offensive side of the ball. He just focus' on the defense 100% and then have an offensive guru run the O. The D would be better for it, and the O would be better for it. Of course I know it won't happen though.

    I think Pete is an excellent big picture guy, and defensive mastermind. I think his GM skills are suspect at this point, and I think he is in over his head on offense. He just had in the past a Lynch to make the running game out of nothing, and a Wilson to make something out of nothing time and time again, so no one noticed at first.

    We will get to see for sure this season though what's up with Pete when it comes to offense with Cable & Bevell out of the way.

    I've been waiting for what seems like an eternity to evaluate the offense without Cable/Bevell being apart of it. I can't wait to watch and see.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:50 am
  • Progression to the mean would be a big step forward. An average running game would seem like huge success, average pass blocking would cause a huge improvement in RW’s potential efficiency. I’m not sure the O needs a guru just coaches that are average/competent that would be a huge improvement over Cable and Bevell. I rather think it:was more a matter of Pete leaving the O in the hands of the OC and Coach Cable that created the ugly result s of last season. Pete finally woke up and realized both his OC and OLine Coach/Running Game Coordinatoer were failing to meet any stated objectives. Accountability finally applied to them too.

    Is it personnel or scheme? I have long been of the view the scheme was the culprit along with questionable coaching at the positional level for the O woes. Last season health certainly was not the team’s friend for the running game, by the coaching didn’t help.

    I am waiting and with curiosity as well that see what the O will look like under new management. Hopefully there won’t be the very confused lines of authority that were a big part of Cable/Bevell offerings.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:06 am
  • rjas77 wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    rjas77 wrote:With roughly eight minutes left in the 4th, the Offense had a 10 point lead. Truth is it was the D that lost SB 49


    The entire secondary was playing with injuries that most other players wouldnt have dreamed of playing with and the defense was minus a premier pass rusher in Avril and they still gave the offense a 10 point cushion against the greatest coach and QB ever. Damn them for expecting our offense to put up a point or two along the way. The game was lost when our coaching staff called the worst play in football history,,,,,,,on offense.

    People seem and act surprised that Bennett and Sherm are talking about Pete for some reason. They wont be the last ones. Theres more to come. The person who said that SB49 destroyed this team was right. Thats on Pete.


    and yet...despite all you posted the O still had a 10 point lead with 8 minutes left. Let that sink in cuz if what you posted was what actually happened...the Patriots should have INCREASED their lead just before halftime instead of being tied.



    Yeah.. it's a hyperbolic reaction to a team changing the faces on the field.

    If... if Super Bowl 49 "destroyed" this team as some love to perpetuate... then that's on the players. Again, the Patriots have lost 3 Super Bowls, all in rather dramatic fashion, and all with the defense failing to protect late leads. And yet.. they press on. Why is that? Because players approach their jobs with the same maturity as they do intensity.

    If.. if... players like Sherman and Bennett never "got over" the loss, and let it dictate their play and approach, then its fine they are gone. The only think Pete might be guilty of here is waiting too long to make these changes.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:18 am
  • Yep, no reason for players to be dwelling on this crap way after the fact. It's sports, you lose, get over it and work HARDER to win another one. What benefit does it have to the team to hold grudges and act like 5 year olds after the fact?
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:53 am
  • Fade wrote:I think Pete is an excellent big picture guy, and defensive mastermind. I think his GM skills are suspect at this point


    Carroll is one of the best talent evaluators in the game. The 2010-12 classes were so strong, in part, because Carroll knew the players since they were in high school and was exercising de facto GM responsibilities. When Carroll has made picks recently, they've almost all turned out well, i.e. Chris Carson with a late 7th round pick last year.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:06 am
  • Most excited I've been for an offseason since the Pats SB loss. I think we'll get back to having players doing everything they can to improve and crack the starting roster instead of being in 'awe' of the starters. Everything indicates a chunk of the core stopped buying into Pete's message and were shown the door. Build around those who do - Russ, Wagner, Kam (I hope he coaches if he decides to retire), Doug, etc.

    Training camp, especially in the secondary, should be very interesting. I'm also looking forward to the new OL coach improving the current linemen instead of seeing pro bowlers come in and actually decline.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:20 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    rjas77 wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    rjas77 wrote:With roughly eight minutes left in the 4th, the Offense had a 10 point lead. Truth is it was the D that lost SB 49


    The entire secondary was playing with injuries that most other players wouldnt have dreamed of playing with and the defense was minus a premier pass rusher in Avril and they still gave the offense a 10 point cushion against the greatest coach and QB ever. Damn them for expecting our offense to put up a point or two along the way. The game was lost when our coaching staff called the worst play in football history,,,,,,,on offense.

    People seem and act surprised that Bennett and Sherm are talking about Pete for some reason. They wont be the last ones. Theres more to come. The person who said that SB49 destroyed this team was right. Thats on Pete.


    and yet...despite all you posted the O still had a 10 point lead with 8 minutes left. Let that sink in cuz if what you posted was what actually happened...the Patriots should have INCREASED their lead just before halftime instead of being tied.



    Yeah.. it's a hyperbolic reaction to a team changing the faces on the field.

    If... if Super Bowl 49 "destroyed" this team as some love to perpetuate... then that's on the players. Again, the Patriots have lost 3 Super Bowls, all in rather dramatic fashion, and all with the defense failing to protect late leads. And yet.. they press on. Why is that? Because players approach their jobs with the same maturity as they do intensity.

    If.. if... players like Sherman and Bennett never "got over" the loss, and let it dictate their play and approach, then its fine they are gone. The only think Pete might be guilty of here is waiting too long to make these changes.


    Pete waited one season too long, what he is doing now should happen last year.


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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:22 am
  • Easy to say after the fact. Can't predict injuries.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:43 am
  • Maybe it was a Kindle.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:24 am
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Easy to say after the fact. Can't predict injuries.



    Exactly, really easy to say afterwards. This time last year, heading into the season with that roster, it looked like the window was still open. Obviously they(PC/JS) did as well making those trades for Brown and Richardson, they were really going for it. A final push before a re-load.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:56 am
  • The fluke injuries (likely career ending) to Kam and Avril were incredibly bad for this team and what they were forced to do later. Regardless what the people who clearly hate the Front Office think, you CAN'T predict what it going to happen. Those two injuries, along with Sherman having his first ever injury etc. NO front office can predict that kind of stuff. It was just a series of bad luck.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:43 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    rjas77 wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    rjas77 wrote:With roughly eight minutes left in the 4th, the Offense had a 10 point lead. Truth is it was the D that lost SB 49


    The entire secondary was playing with injuries that most other players wouldnt have dreamed of playing with and the defense was minus a premier pass rusher in Avril and they still gave the offense a 10 point cushion against the greatest coach and QB ever. Damn them for expecting our offense to put up a point or two along the way. The game was lost when our coaching staff called the worst play in football history,,,,,,,on offense.

    People seem and act surprised that Bennett and Sherm are talking about Pete for some reason. They wont be the last ones. Theres more to come. The person who said that SB49 destroyed this team was right. Thats on Pete.


    and yet...despite all you posted the O still had a 10 point lead with 8 minutes left. Let that sink in cuz if what you posted was what actually happened...the Patriots should have INCREASED their lead just before halftime instead of being tied.



    Yeah.. it's a hyperbolic reaction to a team changing the faces on the field.

    If... if Super Bowl 49 "destroyed" this team as some love to perpetuate... then that's on the players. Again, the Patriots have lost 3 Super Bowls, all in rather dramatic fashion, and all with the defense failing to protect late leads. And yet.. they press on. Why is that? Because players approach their jobs with the same maturity as they do intensity.

    If.. if... players like Sherman and Bennett never "got over" the loss, and let it dictate their play and approach, then its fine they are gone. The only think Pete might be guilty of here is waiting too long to make these changes.


    Players on the Patriots may, but it's because they are under different management. Not all players in the NFL think the same way case and point the Seahawks for the last 4 years. Your leaders or coaches help mold men into how they think, Seattle is one of those say whatever you feel types clubs which may work for a year or two but doesn't have long-term stability like the Patriots model.

    If? It's pretty clear many of the players weren't over the SB loss years after the fact. This is separate from MB and Richard Sherman's inability to not always say what they think to the media.

    I mean read my sig though, Pete handled it literally the best way he could. It's very clear he was done with the drama.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:44 am
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:The fluke injuries (likely career ending) to Kam and Avril were incredibly bad for this team and what they were forced to do later. Regardless what the people who clearly hate the Front Office think, you CAN'T predict what it going to happen. Those two injuries, along with Sherman having his first ever injury etc. NO front office can predict that kind of stuff. It was just a series of bad luck.


    You can't predict but you can "LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF PLAYERS" on your draft board.

    I wish JS would do more press conferences, I have a feeling he would be more open to questions from the media.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:22 am
  • toffee wrote:Pete waited one season too long, what he is doing now should happen last year.


    You are ok with Bevell and Cable being here until this year or are you only talking about the reloading of players in which many had claimed the window was still open?
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:32 am
  • Sure seems like this team was a lot more messy behind the scenes than some wanted to admit.

    Funny how the truth comes out.

    Don't think Pete can put this Humpty Dumpty back together again but I'd love for him to prove me wrong...
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:36 am
  • semiahmoo wrote:Sure seems like this team was a lot more messy behind the scenes than some wanted to admit.

    Funny how the truth comes out.

    Don't think Pete can put this Humpty Dumpty back together again but I'd love for him to prove me wrong...


    Well I know he can, and he's proven it once. That said, I don't believe the odds are good he will though (talking about within his 2 years left).
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:40 pm
  • NFSeahawks628 wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:The fluke injuries (likely career ending) to Kam and Avril were incredibly bad for this team and what they were forced to do later. Regardless what the people who clearly hate the Front Office think, you CAN'T predict what it going to happen. Those two injuries, along with Sherman having his first ever injury etc. NO front office can predict that kind of stuff. It was just a series of bad luck.


    You can't predict but you can "LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF PLAYERS" on your draft board.

    I wish JS would do more press conferences, I have a feeling he would be more open to questions from the media.


    Funny you brought that up. From the presser yesterday, Schneider said they are going to be more selective in their draft board. Very interesting.

    https://www.seahawks.com/news/seahawks- ... raft-board

    Seahawks Head Into 2018 Draft With “Cleaned Up” Process, Fewer Names On Draft Board

    “You’re constantly evaluating what you think you did well and what you need to improve on. I think one of the things we’ve done is really cleaned up. There’s aren’t as many names on our board. You have to have certain criteria to be on our board and we’re making less excuses for players, I would say.”

    Now whether that means red flags as far as injury histories, or character concerns? Both?
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:00 pm
  • twisted_steel2 wrote:
    Now whether that means red flags as far as injury histories, or character concerns? Both?


    Could just mean we have less picks and more needs, so the board has less players on it because it'll be easier to just draft the best player available, as opposed to recent years of there being specific needs at a couple position groups.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:16 pm
  • twisted_steel2 wrote:
    NFSeahawks628 wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:The fluke injuries (likely career ending) to Kam and Avril were incredibly bad for this team and what they were forced to do later. Regardless what the people who clearly hate the Front Office think, you CAN'T predict what it going to happen. Those two injuries, along with Sherman having his first ever injury etc. NO front office can predict that kind of stuff. It was just a series of bad luck.


    You can't predict but you can "LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF PLAYERS" on your draft board.

    I wish JS would do more press conferences, I have a feeling he would be more open to questions from the media.


    Funny you brought that up. From the presser yesterday, Schneider said they are going to be more selective in their draft board. Very interesting.

    https://www.seahawks.com/news/seahawks- ... raft-board

    Seahawks Head Into 2018 Draft With “Cleaned Up” Process, Fewer Names On Draft Board

    “You’re constantly evaluating what you think you did well and what you need to improve on. I think one of the things we’ve done is really cleaned up. There’s aren’t as many names on our board. You have to have certain criteria to be on our board and we’re making less excuses for players, I would say.”

    Now whether that means red flags as far as injury histories, or character concerns? Both?

    Maybe, just maybe it means he wont trade out of the first for an extra first rounder, whilst passing up elite talent.

    John Schneider and Pete really need to hit this draft out of the park if they want to have any prospects of keeping their jobs in the future. They have used up much of their goodwill earned from 2 Super Bowl appearances with dubious trades, poor cap management, and piss poor drafting.

    The "making excuses for players" part is a disturbing piece of information, and it really plays into the problems I have with Pete Carroll's tenure here. He always has to go for the knock out punch. This has manifested itself in his offensive philosophy, and his player acquisitions over the last few years. I'd say it worked out well for him well when he first entered the league because he had scouted, and was on friendly terms with many of the prospects he drafted. He had insider information that most of the NFL didn't have. He stood in these players homes while they were deciding which college to attend, and in some cases kept tabs on them from high school to college, all the way up to the NFL. He does not have this kind of luxury anymore, and we are seeing this manifest in our poor drafts.

    For every Flank Clark that we have drafted we have ended up with a Christine Micheal, and Malik McDowell. Bruce Irvin was able to straighten up, but his impact as a player was league average, and spotty.

    I want them to stop swinging blindly, and start hedging their bets. Picking up these athletic freaks, and trouble players (injury or personality) is okay, so long as you also pick solid players that have a good chance at contributing in conjunction with these high risk, high reward players.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:03 pm
  • Spin Doctor wrote:I want them to stop swinging blindly, and start hedging their bets. Picking up these athletic freaks, and trouble players (injury or personality) is okay, so long as you also pick solid players that have a good chance at contributing in conjunction with these high risk, high reward players.


    You cannot honestly believe they're "swinging blindly". They know far more than you do.

    Nobody, even those with the most information, can accurately predict who will and who will not succeed. The number of UDFAs who end up making it big, and top-ranked picks that fail, are proof of that.

    We'd all love every pick to become a pro-bowler. It will never happen, and the sooner expectations become realistic, the sooner hyperbole around here ends.

    Pete and John are not on their last legs with this draft, no matter how you try to spin it. Hoping it will be the case will not make it so, either.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:32 pm
  • It amazes me how many people actually DO think they know more than John or Pete :roll:
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:12 pm
  • Ad Hawk wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:I want them to stop swinging blindly, and start hedging their bets. Picking up these athletic freaks, and trouble players (injury or personality) is okay, so long as you also pick solid players that have a good chance at contributing in conjunction with these high risk, high reward players.


    You cannot honestly believe they're "swinging blindly". They know far more than you do.

    Nobody, even those with the most information, can accurately predict who will and who will not succeed. The number of UDFAs who end up making it big, and top-ranked picks that fail, are proof of that.

    We'd all love every pick to become a pro-bowler. It will never happen, and the sooner expectations become realistic, the sooner hyperbole around here ends.

    Pete and John are not on their last legs with this draft, no matter how you try to spin it. Hoping it will be the case will not make it so, either.


    So in a roundabout way, Pete should probably get better at the tactical aspects of the NFL since he can't rely on absurdly good drafts time and time again?

    Am I doing this right? ;)
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:31 pm
  • mrt144 wrote:
    Ad Hawk wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:I want them to stop swinging blindly, and start hedging their bets. Picking up these athletic freaks, and trouble players (injury or personality) is okay, so long as you also pick solid players that have a good chance at contributing in conjunction with these high risk, high reward players.


    You cannot honestly believe they're "swinging blindly". They know far more than you do.

    Nobody, even those with the most information, can accurately predict who will and who will not succeed. The number of UDFAs who end up making it big, and top-ranked picks that fail, are proof of that.

    We'd all love every pick to become a pro-bowler. It will never happen, and the sooner expectations become realistic, the sooner hyperbole around here ends.

    Pete and John are not on their last legs with this draft, no matter how you try to spin it. Hoping it will be the case will not make it so, either.


    So in a roundabout way, Pete should probably get better at the tactical aspects of the NFL since he can't rely on absurdly good drafts time and time again?

    Am I doing this right? ;)


    And while he's at it, find a way to prevent all injuries (read: create good luck), give superpowers to all our players, and create world peace. Oh, and bring home a Lombardi every year they lead the team, since we've had nothing but the best players ever assembled on a team at one time.

    Yep, you may just be on the right track. That seems to be the narrative some suggest for PCJS, otherwise they're failures.

    Sigh...
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:52 pm
  • semiahmoo wrote:Sure seems like this team was a lot more messy behind the scenes than some wanted to admit.

    Funny how the truth comes out.

    Don't think Pete can put this Humpty Dumpty back together again but I'd love for him to prove me wrong...


    messy because two malcontent players were sent packing and have acted poorly on their way out?

    good gracious...
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:55 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:Kam would have never been a Safety, Sherman would never have been drafted and given a chance ton play CB if even picked up as a WR. We would have seen no Clemens and Bryant as a Leo. The vison was great in the beginning, another coaching staff would have never used these guys the way they were used.

    The problem was the patting themselves on the back and thinking they could work miracles with every player I think became a issue and we lost focus on what we were doing after the league began to copy cat us on size and speed and we never adjusted and were looking at bargains all the time.


    This is pretty much where I’m at. They caught lightning in a bottle and hit with guys like Sherman and Baldwin exceeding all possible expectations. And then it seemed like they got dependent on that strategy working consistently. When you hit and it works, great. But when you start giving up the potential for proven talent to take those risks, you better keep hitting or this is where you end up.

    The 2010 draft was so much fun, and seems like a lifetime ago.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:00 pm
  • hawknation2018 wrote:
    Fade wrote:I think Pete is an excellent big picture guy, and defensive mastermind. I think his GM skills are suspect at this point


    Carroll is one of the best talent evaluators in the game. The 2010-12 classes were so strong, in part, because Carroll knew the players since they were in high school and was exercising de facto GM responsibilities. When Carroll has made picks recently, they've almost all turned out well, i.e. Chris Carson with a late 7th round pick last year.


    "Was" one of the best evaluators in the game.

    2010-2012 was a long time ago.

    Giving away cap space to guys like Carry Williams, Joekel, J'Marcus Webb, etc. Signings that ruined their cap.
    They are now in re-build mode.

    Pete is now at this stage a suspect personnel man. Too many bad moves over the last 5 seasons outweigh any of the good moves he has made over that same time span. This is Pete's show, the blame falls on him.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:26 pm
  • then so should all the success...
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:17 pm
  • Fade wrote:
    hawknation2018 wrote:
    Fade wrote:I think Pete is an excellent big picture guy, and defensive mastermind. I think his GM skills are suspect at this point


    Carroll is one of the best talent evaluators in the game. The 2010-12 classes were so strong, in part, because Carroll knew the players since they were in high school and was exercising de facto GM responsibilities. When Carroll has made picks recently, they've almost all turned out well, i.e. Chris Carson with a late 7th round pick last year.


    "Was" one of the best evaluators in the game.

    2010-2012 was a long time ago.

    Giving away cap space to guys like Carry Williams, Joekel, J'Marcus Webb, etc. Signings that ruined their cap.
    They are now in re-build mode.

    Pete is now at this stage a suspect personnel man. Too many bad moves over the last 5 seasons outweigh any of the good moves he has made over that same time span. This is Pete's show, the blame falls on him.


    Well said.

    It was said here by me and others at least two seasons ago that Pete's act had grown tired with some important players on the team. That has been proven to be undeniably true.

    I like Pete Caroll. I think most players do as well. It just seems fewer and fewer continued to respect him.

    It happens. Even Belichick's system is being challenged of late. The difference is Belichick will nip that in the bud. Pete let things fester and we've paid the price the last couple seasons. Perhaps he's got some of that old fire back in his own belly and will rally with a strong season. I hope so but I don't believe so...
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:24 pm
  • semiahmoo wrote:
    Fade wrote:
    hawknation2018 wrote:
    Fade wrote:I think Pete is an excellent big picture guy, and defensive mastermind. I think his GM skills are suspect at this point


    Carroll is one of the best talent evaluators in the game. The 2010-12 classes were so strong, in part, because Carroll knew the players since they were in high school and was exercising de facto GM responsibilities. When Carroll has made picks recently, they've almost all turned out well, i.e. Chris Carson with a late 7th round pick last year.


    "Was" one of the best evaluators in the game.

    2010-2012 was a long time ago.

    Giving away cap space to guys like Carry Williams, Joekel, J'Marcus Webb, etc. Signings that ruined their cap.
    They are now in re-build mode.

    Pete is now at this stage a suspect personnel man. Too many bad moves over the last 5 seasons outweigh any of the good moves he has made over that same time span. This is Pete's show, the blame falls on him.


    Well said.

    It was said here by me and others at least two seasons ago that Pete's act had grown tired with some important players on the team. That has been proven to be undeniably true.

    I like Pete Caroll. I think most players do as well. It just seems fewer and fewer continued to respect him.

    It happens. Even Belichick's system is being challenged of late. The difference is Belichick will nip that in the bud. Pete let things fester and we've paid the price the last couple seasons. Perhaps he's got some of that old fire back in his own belly and will rally with a strong season. I hope so but I don't believe so...


    Yeah, interested in seeing how the Brady Gronk situation plays out.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:37 pm
  • Fade wrote:
    hawknation2018 wrote:
    Fade wrote:I think Pete is an excellent big picture guy, and defensive mastermind. I think his GM skills are suspect at this point


    Carroll is one of the best talent evaluators in the game. The 2010-12 classes were so strong, in part, because Carroll knew the players since they were in high school and was exercising de facto GM responsibilities. When Carroll has made picks recently, they've almost all turned out well, i.e. Chris Carson with a late 7th round pick last year.


    "Was" one of the best evaluators in the game.

    2010-2012 was a long time ago.

    Giving away cap space to guys like Carry Williams, Joekel, J'Marcus Webb, etc. Signings that ruined their cap.
    They are now in re-build mode.

    Pete is now at this stage a suspect personnel man. Too many bad moves over the last 5 seasons outweigh any of the good moves he has made over that same time span. This is Pete's show, the blame falls on him.


    After 2012, Schneider took a more outsized role in the front office. And he has been above average in that role.

    It would be foolish to pin those more recent moves on Carroll, particuarily as it relates to free agency evaluation. That has almost always been Schneider's domain, with a few exceptions, like Marshawn Lynch. Schneider has had some very good hits in free agency, as well, including Michael Bennett.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:04 pm
  • When people talk about Scot McCloughan, they are ignoring the forest for the trees. McCloughan's exodus was merely a symptom of a much larger change in the decision making process. Going forward, no longer were there two advisors, sharing responsibilities, while Carroll pulled the trigger.

    The way it used to be was untenable. The most obvious reason for that is because player evaluation is a huge time suck for a head coach. Carroll was no longer as familiar with the players coming out in the draft because he hadn't recruited them when they were were in high school and he was at USC. And the Seahawks were battling for championships on the field. This necessitated Carroll's move to the war room, while Schneider took over the front office.

    Another less-discussed reason is the nature of institutional mobility and promotion. If you want to keep employees, there is no way to restrain the decision making process. If they had, neither McCloughan nor Schneider would be with the Seahawks today. Successful people want more power and autonomy. That meant going from a virtual democracy, but with Carroll at the top of the pyramid, to Schneider calling most of the shots.

    We saw this same phenomenon play out with the defensive coaching staff. Norton and Richard were the closest coaches to the players. When they were sharing responsibilities, behind Quinn and Carroll, the defense was at its strongest. But the exodus of Quinn meant that one would have to be promoted over the other, if the team hoped to keep either coach.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:19 pm
  • Fade wrote:I would love to see Pete removed from the offensive side of the ball.


    The offensive side of the ball is already the area where Carroll has asserted the least influence. All he wants is for the offense to be good at both running and throwing the ball. Unfortunately, the previous offensive coordinator just wasn't any good. The one thing I will say about Schottenheimer is that his style of play is a lot more physical, much less finesse than the previous regime.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:42 pm
  • Ad Hawk wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:I want them to stop swinging blindly, and start hedging their bets. Picking up these athletic freaks, and trouble players (injury or personality) is okay, so long as you also pick solid players that have a good chance at contributing in conjunction with these high risk, high reward players.


    You cannot honestly believe they're "swinging blindly". They know far more than you do.

    Nobody, even those with the most information, can accurately predict who will and who will not succeed. The number of UDFAs who end up making it big, and top-ranked picks that fail, are proof of that.

    We'd all love every pick to become a pro-bowler. It will never happen, and the sooner expectations become realistic, the sooner hyperbole around here ends.

    Pete and John are not on their last legs with this draft, no matter how you try to spin it. Hoping it will be the case will not make it so, either.

    Of course Pete Carroll, and John Schneider know more than me -- if they did not I would be concerned. I come with no pretenses of being a football savant or with the delusions of being a soothsayer. They are professionals that have dedicated their entire lives to their craft -- and they have an entire organization helping them pan for gold. Like Carroll and Schneider all I can do is make an educated guesses based on the information that I do know. Hell, I thought Pete Carroll looked like he was ready to retire after the circus that was 2017, given the moves the Seahawks made and body language from Carroll. Turns out I was wrong on this account. People get things wrong all of the time, but unfortunately in Pete's position, making the wrong call can have dire consequences to the health of his organization, and credibility as a head coach. I also have the luxury of looking hindsight, something they don't have.

    In this case hindsight does not look down favorably upon Carroll's drafting since the class of 2012. We get to see cause and effect play out. His first few years he killed it, but ever since the draft of 2012, Carroll and Schneider have had a terrible track record in the draft. That early success Carroll captured in the draft is starting to look more and more like an aberration at this point. We've had three years of really poor drafts (jury is still out on '16, and '17), and now this team has become old and frail. The stars we once had have burnt out -- and our replacements for these players are not there, nor is any sort of depth. Carroll has ignored some HUGE red flags for some of these prospects. Christine Micheal for example, was a player that had a hard time understanding the basic NFL playbook. He also came with some character concerns -- and inconsistency in college. These same issues manifested themselves in the NFL. McDowell also had shown immaturity, and the tendency to take plays off in college. He had a lot of character concerns, and now we're getting information that he had the worst interviews that many scouts, and GM's around the league have ever seen.

    Carroll and Schneider have been doing the NFL equivalent to the hail mary in the draft by taking raw talent with injury concerns, glaring character problems, or both, and having that be the predominate draft strategy. I'm all okay with that being part of the draft strategy, but ultimately Carroll, and Schneider have outsmarted themselves the last few years by trying to catch lightning in a bottle, and trading high draft picks for expensive vets who didn't fit our system. If this draft is not at decent, Carroll can kiss his career in the NFL goodbye given the downward trajectory of the Seahawks since 2014. If we don't get some talent and role players here --- expect losing seasons in the future.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:34 pm
  • Ace_Rimmer wrote:This is all about Pete being a great young players coach because he lets them be themselves.


    That's not a good approach to management. I line-manage a couple of young lads (in an IT environment, not sport) and if I "let them be themselves" they'd never get anything done.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:55 am
  • Eltagi wrote:
    Ace_Rimmer wrote:This is all about Pete being a great young players coach because he lets them be themselves.


    That's not a good approach to management. I line-manage a couple of young lads (in an IT environment, not sport) and if I "let them be themselves" they'd never get anything done.



    But it won a Super Bowl...

    so clearly it is a good approach to management.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:39 am
  • One play from back to back titles and playoffs almost every year under Carroll and JS. Yeah, what a horrible approach :?
    Other than the Pats, you could argue that the Hawks have been the most successful team in the league in the last several years. But hey, no matter WHAT they do in this upcoming draft, we'll get to hear people whine and moan like they actually already KNOW that the draft isn't a good one. Before any of these guys even take the field. :roll:
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:40 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Eltagi wrote:
    Ace_Rimmer wrote:This is all about Pete being a great young players coach because he lets them be themselves.


    That's not a good approach to management. I line-manage a couple of young lads (in an IT environment, not sport) and if I "let them be themselves" they'd never get anything done.



    But it won a Super Bowl...

    so clearly it is a good approach to management.


    It's both.

    The gray area lies in the sustainability, not the approach. Obviously Pete's coaching style helped build one of the most dominant and successful teams for a 3-4 year period in the history of the NFL.

    Where he failed was in knowing when that approach was no longer effective.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:59 am
  • Where Pete failed was attempting to blend a championship caliber roster, and a sub standard caliber coaching staff (mostly Cabevell). That succeeded in undermining his authority (buy in), once the W's dropped off.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:59 am
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:One play from back to back titles and playoffs almost every year under Carroll and JS. Yeah, what a horrible approach :?
    Other than the Pats, you could argue that the Hawks have been the most successful team in the league in the last several years. But hey, no matter WHAT they do in this upcoming draft, we'll get to hear people whine and moan like they actually already KNOW that the draft isn't a good one. Before any of these guys even take the field. :roll:


    It’s a point of concern that the team has rarely drafted in the first round since 2012. A lot of the impact players from those Super Bowl teams are gone. The concern (which I don’t believe is misplaced) is what they’re being replaced with.

    The team caught lightning in a bottle and had a very young and cheap group of talent. That luxury afforded them several options, which paid dividends. That’s over now that they got paid. But you don’t have the slightest concern about where it goes from here?
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:03 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    Eltagi wrote:
    Ace_Rimmer wrote:This is all about Pete being a great young players coach because he lets them be themselves.


    That's not a good approach to management. I line-manage a couple of young lads (in an IT environment, not sport) and if I "let them be themselves" they'd never get anything done.



    But it won a Super Bowl...

    so clearly it is a good approach to management.


    It's both.

    The gray area lies in the sustainability, not the approach. Obviously Pete's coaching style helped build one of the most dominant and successful teams for a 3-4 year period in the history of the NFL.

    Where he failed was in knowing when that approach was no longer effective.


    we werent talking about the sustainability.

    Only one team has managed to be "sustainable" for any length of time in the history of this league...

    One... and even then they have lost Super Bowls

    This league is about winning, winning immediately. PC did that. If his approach isn't sustainable its hypocritical to ask him to change when it works. What he needed to do was change the players. What do you think Belichek's approach will be when Brady leaves?
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