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Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:59 pm
  • With the new O coordinator and O line coordinator will we see any difference how Russell operates? It is anybody's guess what will happen to the O line. So far I have to wonder if they will change it or keep it. Whatever happens, I Russell needs to learn how to get the ball out faster or he is going to get killed. I do not see him either as a straight pocket QB. I look at Tom Brady who has little or no mobility. He has learned how to get the ball out fast. I do hope that the Schott who was also a QB coach gets Russell more comfortable with a quicker release. It is tough watching him in the pocket when the line is being pushed into him. I know Schott is more of a passing guy but Pete favors the run. Should we work on better blocking schemes for the O line, dump a few players, or get Russ to work on getting the ball our faster or should we keep the status quo and get another Todd Gurley/Fournette type back? What say you?
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:24 pm
  • Depends on the offensive line. Wilson has had a bad o line for so long now that he is just used to bailing the pocket so much. He gets pressured instantly and has to run around and try to make some schoolyard stuff happen. He even does it when he doesnt have to and actually has a clean pocket.

    He just needs a consistent o line where he can make reads from the pocket and needs to have a good offensive coordinator dialing up the plays and game planning to attack defenses. No more of this scramble BS its not successful long term they need an actual offensive system. His mobility will still come in handy though.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:34 pm
  • RussB wrote:Depends on the offensive line. Wilson has had a bad o line for so long now that he is just used to bailing the pocket so much. He gets pressured instantly and has to run around and try to make some schoolyard stuff happen. He even does it when he doesnt have to and actually has a clean pocket.

    He just needs a consistent o line where he can make reads from the pocket and needs to have a good offensive coordinator dialing up the plays and game planning to attack defenses. No more of this scramble BS its not successful long term they need an actual offensive system. His mobility will still come in handy though.


    This is so right on imo. Good post.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:39 pm
  • It's not all the line in that scenario. He can't step up in the pocket and see Baldwin on a shallow cross, for instance. Physics literally dictates it's not possible. Seeing is the problem, not release point. He can step up soemwhat on longer routes, but not shallow ones. It's one of the same reasons why he takes deeper pass drops (an actual stat) and also doesn't operate much under center. Not that I expect crazies to admit things like physics, but a RB to go along with Carson and a better OL should maximize our play action game again. I was laughing at how wide open the Jags receivers and tight ends were against PIT. Their running game forced the PIT defense take a half second to read run and it slowed their defense down a lot.

    We get that going and RW's rating goes back up to what it was a few years ago. If not, it'll just be more of the same. MAYBE playoffs, but an early exit.

    Brees, Rapey, and Ryan are all home right now. They lost to no name QBs on teams who run the ball, play defense and ST, and just aren't all about that lie that is hero ball.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:14 pm
  • but inch taller Brees has no problem.

    I thought having second best passer rating of all time would finally dispel BS narrative.


    3 inch taller and 6'2 Aaron Rodgers is also magically taller than his 6'5 and up lineman
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:15 pm
  • Can we really stop with this Brady nonsense. Brady has all day to throw. When he doesn't, he folds like a cheap coward. When defenses play press coverage Brady still has to hold the ball. Brady has also never consistently been without a running game

    Only 2 of Russell Wilson's touchdowns this year were on broken plays. Otherwise he stayed in the pocket, even if he had 2.5 seconds from the snap to throw. Russell is held to one of the most unfair standards in the league where he's somehow expected to execute perfectly the 5% of the time he has a perfectly clean pocket, get the ball out with no running game, and oh by the way make magic happen. How simple and easy :sarcasm_on:

    I'm not here to attack, constructive criticism of Russell is okay but I feel that my fellow fans are holding to some stubborn notions about the guy
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:17 pm
  • nice pockets even make Case Keenum look competent.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:28 pm
  • vin.couve12 wrote:It's not all the line in that scenario. He can't step up in the pocket and see Baldwin on a shallow cross, for instance. Physics literally dictates it's not possible. Seeing is the problem, not release point. He can step up soemwhat on longer routes, but not shallow ones. It's one of the same reasons why he takes deeper pass drops (an actual stat) and also doesn't operate much under center. Not that I expect crazies to admit things like physics, but a RB to go along with Carson and a better OL should maximize our play action game again. I was laughing at how wide open the Jags receivers and tight ends were against PIT. Their running game forced the PIT defense take a half second to read run and it slowed their defense down a lot.

    We get that going and RW's rating goes back up to what it was a few years ago. If not, it'll just be more of the same. MAYBE playoffs, but an early exit.

    Brees, Rapey, and Ryan are all home right now. They lost to no name QBs on teams who run the ball, play defense and ST, and just aren't all about that lie that is hero ball.

    Wilson can operate from the pocket, he just needs consistent protection which has basically been non existant ever since late 2015. In the last part of that season, the o line actually played very well and wilson went on a historic stretch from the pocket.

    Hopefully with cable gone there will be more of that, having a better offensive coordinator who can actually gameplan will help too. I dont think wilson is so short it prevents him from stepping up in the pocket, him and brees and are about the same size and brees is an all time great pocket passer.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:35 pm
  • Russell is a film junky. When the O-Line puts out on film a consistent pocket, he will begin to stay in the pocket. The film the last two years told him to bail, so he did rightfully so. He would be on IR otherwise.

    2015 proves his height being an impairment in the pocket is greatly exaggerated. Is his vision at time impaired? Yes, but consistently? I would say no.

    Shallow crosses at times give him trouble due to impaired sight lines, but the biggest thing that gives RW problems would have to be interior lineman getting pushed back into his lap. He literally can't see when that happens, and you will see RW pull the ball down and look to escape when it does happen. Most QBs typically just stand in there and fire away given this particular scenario I'm trying to articulate, but Russell can't. He needs space.

    The Russell holding the ball thing, is where I think the "he can't see" thing comes from. When really most of the time, it's all of his receivers running deep, and he has to wait for the routes to develop. Pete Carroll is obsessed with the deep ball. Seattle has been allergic to intermediate route concepts, and a lack of safety valve options on deeper routes, making it even harder on their QB to be successful.

    Also to early in games Pete doesn't want Russell taking risks so he wants Russell to only pull the trigger if a guy is wide open. Which forces Russ to hold the ball, and also I think it leads to inaccuracy because you're overthinking it and trying to place it in a perfect spot. Rather than --> see target, hit target. Which is a better philosophy imo.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:37 pm
  • Latter half 2015 was a lot of quick throws in around 2.5 seconds (NOT diluted by bubble screens). A pocket rarely ever came into play. He was 3 or 5 step drop and throw to the first read (designed play) on the majority of snaps. He wasn't subtlety moving around in a pocket for 4 to 5 seconds.

    It was the only time we saw an offense like that. Ironically, it was probably Bevell's greatest couple months of his life. Quick one reads in passing and quick developing run plays with outstanding run blocking durinh that period.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:44 pm
  • Fade wrote:Russell is a film junky. When the O-Line puts out on film a consistent pocket, he will begin to stay in the pocket. The film the last two years told him to bail, so he did rightfully so. He would be on IR otherwise.

    2015 proves his height being an impairment in the pocket is greatly exaggerated. Is his vision at time impaired? Yes, but consistently? I would say no.

    Shallow crosses at times give him trouble due to impaired sight lines, but the biggest thing that gives RW problems would have to be interior lineman getting pushed back into his lap. He literally can't see when that happens, and you will see RW pull the ball down and look to escape when it does happen. Most QBs typically just stand in there and fire away given this particular scenario I'm trying to articulate, but Russell can't. He needs space.

    The Russell holding the ball thing, is where I think the "he can't see" thing comes from. When really most of the time, it's all of his receivers running deep, and he has to wait for the routes to develop. Pete Carroll is obsessed with the deep ball. Seattle has been allergic to intermediate route concepts, and a lack of safety valve options on deeper routes, making it even harder on their QB to be successful.

    Also to early in games Pete doesn't want Russell taking risks so he wants Russell to only pull the trigger if a guy is wide open. Which forces Russ to hold the ball, and also I think it leads to inaccuracy because you're overthinking it and trying to place it in a perfect spot. Rather than --> see target, hit target. Which is a better philosophy imo.


    Dude, I think you actually get it. Like ACTUALLY GET IT! Take a piece of plywood for instance. Get up close and your field of view is just gone. Back off and you get a little vision back.

    It's the reason for some of the deepest pass drops in the league, it's the reason for so much shotgun, it's the reason why he has a hard time stepping up.

    And I also agree that when you have 6'6 skinny bootches (relative to the position anyway) that get pushed back....it magnifies something that already needs to be overcame.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:44 pm
  • Smellyman wrote:but inch taller Brees has no problem.

    I though having second best passer rating of all time would finally dispel BS narrative.


    3 inch taller and 6'2 Aaron Rodgers is also magically taller than his 6
    '5 and up lineman


    Yes, it's physics at work again. He is superman and can see right through their heads without a problem. In fact every QB not named Russell can see right through 6'6" olinemens heads. And don't try to argue that humans eyes are actually 6" below the top of the head because that doesn't matter with xray vision. :sarcasm_off:
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:48 pm
  • All that said, it's kind of amazing what dude has done with it all.

    Just don't realistically expect dude to become some pocket awareness guru. He's still gonna escape outside and there are still going to be holding penalties.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:51 pm
  • It's the running game. Brees has a great running game. When RW had one he was being touted as a top 5 QB.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:51 pm
  • Screens check down routes, deep balls and seam routes on time, Wilson is going to have to read and fire and hit the open guy in progression and not look for a bigger piece of the pie. I believe that is what we will see. Passing lanes should be there if the line is coached up with a different take on the ZBS scheme.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:07 pm
  • Scorpion05 wrote:Can we really stop with this Brady nonsense. Brady has all day to throw. When he doesn't, he folds like a cheap coward. When defenses play press coverage Brady still has to hold the ball. Brady has also never consistently been without a running game

    Only 2 of Russell Wilson's touchdowns this year were on broken plays. Otherwise he stayed in the pocket, even if he had 2.5 seconds from the snap to throw. Russell is held to one of the most unfair standards in the league where he's somehow expected to execute perfectly the 5% of the time he has a perfectly clean pocket, get the ball out with no running game, and oh by the way make magic happen. How simple and easy :sarcasm_on:

    I'm not here to attack, constructive criticism of Russell is okay but I feel that my fellow fans are holding to some stubborn notions about the guy


    Absolutely...He PROVED in the second half of 2015 that he CAN be every bit a great a pocket passer as ANY Quarterback in the League.
    With a HALF decent Blocking scheme, and a RB or two to help him to keep Defenses honest, the sky is his limit.
    2017, over 4,000 yards without ANY Run Game?....Cable was responsible for Coaching up the Offensive Line, and providing him Pass Protect, & Run assist....Cable's gone, as is the guy that was charged to draw up plays, UTILIZING Cables Cruddy Blockers.....Yeah..Good luck figuring out how to work those square pegs into those round holes Darryl.
    Now, a whole bunch of DB haters have seen their wishes come true, NOW, they need to QUIT CRYING.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:16 pm
  • There was nothing proven there. You're talkig about maybe 8% of the overall sample size of his career.

    Don't take up science at any time. 8% doesn't mean jack monkey squat unless you're talking about alternative facts.

    On top of that, everyone at the time was talking about the quick throw design of the offense. It had noth8ng to do with a pocket. It was 1-2 read and out.

    I swear, some people WANT the Seahawks to be losers. RW is awesome, but he's just a QB...like Brees, like Rapey, like Ryan. All of whom are losers to guys with no names.

    Just a QB.

    And a LOSER. Like man worshipers.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:41 pm
  • Just to put it out there RW was tied with Peyton Manning for highest rated passer in the pocket for the '12 & '13 seasons combined a 32 game sample size. So he has proven it plenty of times that he can get it done from the pocket. The second half of the '15 season was utterly ridiculous though, and what everyone remembers. It was damn special, like literally never been done before special.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:44 pm
  • The difference is, the other teams are hitting great draft picks and we get projects and DQ's. Getting rid of Cable helps those odds go way up too.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:50 pm
  • vin.couve12 wrote:There was nothing proven there. You're talkig about maybe 8% of the overall sample size of his career.

    Don't take up science at any time. 8% doesn't mean jack monkey squat unless you're talking about alternative facts.

    On top of that, everyone at the time was talking about the quick throw design of the offense. It had noth8ng to do with a pocket. It was 1-2 read and out.

    I swear, some people WANT the Seahawks to be losers. RW is awesome, but he's just a QB...like Brees, like Rapey, like Ryan. All of whom are losers to guys with no names.

    Just a QB.

    And a LOSER. Like man worshipers.



    It sounds like you are talking about 2 different things. Passing from the pocket vs moving around inside the pocket and not leaving.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:52 pm
  • Fade wrote:Russell is a film junky. When the O-Line puts out on film a consistent pocket, he will begin to stay in the pocket. The film the last two years told him to bail, so he did rightfully so. He would be on IR otherwise.

    2015 proves his height being an impairment in the pocket is greatly exaggerated. Is his vision at time impaired? Yes, but consistently? I would say no.

    Shallow crosses at times give him trouble due to impaired sight lines, but the biggest thing that gives RW problems would have to be interior lineman getting pushed back into his lap. He literally can't see when that happens, and you will see RW pull the ball down and look to escape when it does happen. Most QBs typically just stand in there and fire away given this particular scenario I'm trying to articulate, but Russell can't. He needs space.

    The Russell holding the ball thing, is where I think the "he can't see" thing comes from. When really most of the time, it's all of his receivers running deep, and he has to wait for the routes to develop. Pete Carroll is obsessed with the deep ball. Seattle has been allergic to intermediate route concepts, and a lack of safety valve options on deeper routes, making it even harder on their QB to be successful.

    Also to early in games Pete doesn't want Russell taking risks so he wants Russell to only pull the trigger if a guy is wide open. Which forces Russ to hold the ball, and also I think it leads to inaccuracy because you're overthinking it and trying to place it in a perfect spot. Rather than --> see target, hit target. Which is a better philosophy imo.



    This is among the most constructive, fair analysis of Russell I've ever seen on this site. Look, to me Russell will always be a Steve Young type Qb at his best. Can quick throws work? Sure, but Russell sometimes has pressure in his face as soon as he snaps the ball. Hard to tell a Qb to release the ball quickly when you're giving him a half a second extra to execute with a guy coming for him

    You're also right about pushing the middle of the pocket. To me it's Russell's Achilles heel. Add Bree's to that equation. It's why having a great center and guard is so important.

    This is in comparison to say, a Carson Wentz or Big Ben, who can fire it down field on pure arm strength even with pressure up the middle and without getting their feet set. Of course, Russell has skills they don't. When Russell gets older, he's going to need a great o-line to ensure those moments are few and far between. For now, just a good o-line should do
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:13 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:Screens check down routes, deep balls and seam routes on time, Wilson is going to have to read and fire and hit the open guy in progression and not look for a bigger piece of the pie. I believe that is what we will see. Passing lanes should be there if the line is coached up with a different take on the ZBS scheme.

    Brees has a running game this year, the past couple years he really hasnt and thats why he was throwing for 5000 yards and like 40 touchdowns a year.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:17 pm
  • vin.couve12 wrote:It's not all the line in that scenario. He can't step up in the pocket and see Baldwin on a shallow cross, for instance. Physics literally dictates it's not possible. Seeing is the problem, not release point. He can step up soemwhat on longer routes, but not shallow ones. It's one of the same reasons why he takes deeper pass drops (an actual stat) and also doesn't operate much under center. Not that I expect crazies to admit things like physics, but a RB to go along with Carson and a better OL should maximize our play action game again. I was laughing at how wide open the Jags receivers and tight ends were against PIT. Their running game forced the PIT defense take a half second to read run and it slowed their defense down a lot.

    We get that going and RW's rating goes back up to what it was a few years ago. If not, it'll just be more of the same. MAYBE playoffs, but an early exit.

    Brees, Rapey, and Ryan are all home right now. They lost to no name QBs on teams who run the ball, play defense and ST, and just aren't all about that lie that is hero ball.


    I wish this theory would die. Multiple ex NFL quarterbacks have said this is largely false as they see through lanes not dorectly over the top of a lineman. Even taller guys struggle to see over a lineman because of the distance to the receiver and the lineman themselves. He has hit every single throw a quarterback can make at one time or another. He bails early and often because the line is terrible, he's gotten a little anticipatory and he knows him extending the play is sometimes the only way to sustain a drive......not because he can't see over a 6ft 4 inch lineman because no one can see over lineman that big.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:29 pm
  • austinslater25 wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:It's not all the line in that scenario. He can't step up in the pocket and see Baldwin on a shallow cross, for instance. Physics literally dictates it's not possible. Seeing is the problem, not release point. He can step up soemwhat on longer routes, but not shallow ones. It's one of the same reasons why he takes deeper pass drops (an actual stat) and also doesn't operate much under center. Not that I expect crazies to admit things like physics, but a RB to go along with Carson and a better OL should maximize our play action game again. I was laughing at how wide open the Jags receivers and tight ends were against PIT. Their running game forced the PIT defense take a half second to read run and it slowed their defense down a lot.

    We get that going and RW's rating goes back up to what it was a few years ago. If not, it'll just be more of the same. MAYBE playoffs, but an early exit.

    Brees, Rapey, and Ryan are all home right now. They lost to no name QBs on teams who run the ball, play defense and ST, and just aren't all about that lie that is hero ball.


    I wish this theory would die. Multiple ex NFL quarterbacks have said this is largely false as they see through lanes not dorectly over the top of a lineman. Even taller guys struggle to see over a lineman because of the distance to the receiver and the lineman themselves. He has hit every single throw a quarterback can make at one time or another. He bails early and often because the line is terrible, he's gotten a little anticipatory and he knows him extending the play is sometimes the only way to sustain a drive......not because he can't see over a 6ft 4 inch lineman because no one can see over lineman that big.

    The latter statement is absolutely false. Where you're right is where other things can be done to compensate. I'll also throw out there that there are pros and cons to every QB. I still maintain that the Seattle Seahawks should never prove anything on behalf of Russell Wilson.

    Seattle Seahawks > Russell Wilson

    RW is a cog in the machine, albeit an important one. Man worship is a poison is the minds of all humanity.

    The formula that wins Lombardi trophies/SB rings is infinitely more important and we have a legitimate and actual factual baseline for this IN...Seattle Washington and across the NFL and football in general. Lose worshiping or die trying.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:31 pm
  • vin.couve12 wrote:
    austinslater25 wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:It's not all the line in that scenario. He can't step up in the pocket and see Baldwin on a shallow cross, for instance. Physics literally dictates it's not possible. Seeing is the problem, not release point. He can step up soemwhat on longer routes, but not shallow ones. It's one of the same reasons why he takes deeper pass drops (an actual stat) and also doesn't operate much under center. Not that I expect crazies to admit things like physics, but a RB to go along with Carson and a better OL should maximize our play action game again. I was laughing at how wide open the Jags receivers and tight ends were against PIT. Their running game forced the PIT defense take a half second to read run and it slowed their defense down a lot.

    We get that going and RW's rating goes back up to what it was a few years ago. If not, it'll just be more of the same. MAYBE playoffs, but an early exit.

    Brees, Rapey, and Ryan are all home right now. They lost to no name QBs on teams who run the ball, play defense and ST, and just aren't all about that lie that is hero ball.


    I wish this theory would die. Multiple ex NFL quarterbacks have said this is largely false as they see through lanes not dorectly over the top of a lineman. Even taller guys struggle to see over a lineman because of the distance to the receiver and the lineman themselves. He has hit every single throw a quarterback can make at one time or another. He bails early and often because the line is terrible, he's gotten a little anticipatory and he knows him extending the play is sometimes the only way to sustain a drive......not because he can't see over a 6ft 4 inch lineman because no one can see over lineman that big.

    The latter statement is absolutely false. Where you're right is where other things can be done to compensate. I'll also throw out there that there are pros and cons to every QB. I still maintain that the Seattle Seahawks should never prove anything on behalf of Russell Wilson.

    Seattle Seahawks > Russell Wilson

    RW is a cog in the machine, albeit an important one. Man worship is a poison is the minds of all humanity.

    The formula that wins Lombardi trophies/SB rings is infinitely more important and we have a legitimate and actual factual baseline for this IN...Seattle Washington and across the NFL and football in general. Lose worshiping or die trying.

    Backs score touchdowns, linemen win games. Build an All Pro line, superbowls follow REGARDLESS of who is behind them.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:34 pm
  • Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:
    austinslater25 wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:It's not all the line in that scenario. He can't step up in the pocket and see Baldwin on a shallow cross, for instance. Physics literally dictates it's not possible. Seeing is the problem, not release point. He can step up soemwhat on longer routes, but not shallow ones. It's one of the same reasons why he takes deeper pass drops (an actual stat) and also doesn't operate much under center. Not that I expect crazies to admit things like physics, but a RB to go along with Carson and a better OL should maximize our play action game again. I was laughing at how wide open the Jags receivers and tight ends were against PIT. Their running game forced the PIT defense take a half second to read run and it slowed their defense down a lot.

    We get that going and RW's rating goes back up to what it was a few years ago. If not, it'll just be more of the same. MAYBE playoffs, but an early exit.

    Brees, Rapey, and Ryan are all home right now. They lost to no name QBs on teams who run the ball, play defense and ST, and just aren't all about that lie that is hero ball.


    I wish this theory would die. Multiple ex NFL quarterbacks have said this is largely false as they see through lanes not dorectly over the top of a lineman. Even taller guys struggle to see over a lineman because of the distance to the receiver and the lineman themselves. He has hit every single throw a quarterback can make at one time or another. He bails early and often because the line is terrible, he's gotten a little anticipatory and he knows him extending the play is sometimes the only way to sustain a drive......not because he can't see over a 6ft 4 inch lineman because no one can see over lineman that big.

    The latter statement is absolutely false. Where you're right is where other things can be done to compensate. I'll also throw out there that there are pros and cons to every QB. I still maintain that the Seattle Seahawks should never prove anything on behalf of Russell Wilson.

    Seattle Seahawks > Russell Wilson

    RW is a cog in the machine, albeit an important one. Man worship is a poison is the minds of all humanity.

    The formula that wins Lombardi trophies/SB rings is infinitely more important and we have a legitimate and actual factual baseline for this IN...Seattle Washington and across the NFL and football in general. Lose worshiping or die trying.

    Backs score touchdowns, linemen win games. Build an All Pro line, superbowls follow REGARDLESS of who is behind them.


    Tell that to modern Dallas. Their previous QB always tried to do too much and choked out each time and lost the game for the team with it on his shoulders and always seemed to turn the ball over and the worst times. Not unlike us this year. Unlike their 90s teams, they don't have a defense and solid STs.

    There's more to it than that.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:38 pm
  • vin.couve12 wrote:
    Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:
    austinslater25 wrote:
    I wish this theory would die. Multiple ex NFL quarterbacks have said this is largely false as they see through lanes not dorectly over the top of a lineman. Even taller guys struggle to see over a lineman because of the distance to the receiver and the lineman themselves. He has hit every single throw a quarterback can make at one time or another. He bails early and often because the line is terrible, he's gotten a little anticipatory and he knows him extending the play is sometimes the only way to sustain a drive......not because he can't see over a 6ft 4 inch lineman because no one can see over lineman that big.

    The latter statement is absolutely false. Where you're right is where other things can be done to compensate. I'll also throw out there that there are pros and cons to every QB. I still maintain that the Seattle Seahawks should never prove anything on behalf of Russell Wilson.

    Seattle Seahawks > Russell Wilson

    RW is a cog in the machine, albeit an important one. Man worship is a poison is the minds of all humanity.

    The formula that wins Lombardi trophies/SB rings is infinitely more important and we have a legitimate and actual factual baseline for this IN...Seattle Washington and across the NFL and football in general. Lose worshiping or die trying.

    Backs score touchdowns, linemen win games. Build an All Pro line, superbowls follow REGARDLESS of who is behind them.


    Tell that to modern Dallas. Their previous QB always tried to do too much and choked out each time and lost the game for the team with it on his shoulders and always seemed to turn the ball over and the worst times. Not unlike us this year. Unlike their 90s teams, they don't have a defense and solid STs.

    There's more to it than that.


    Nah, a pure zone blocking scheme will always make the QB suffer in pass protection.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:40 pm
  • Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:
    Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:The latter statement is absolutely false. Where you're right is where other things can be done to compensate. I'll also throw out there that there are pros and cons to every QB. I still maintain that the Seattle Seahawks should never prove anything on behalf of Russell Wilson.

    Seattle Seahawks > Russell Wilson

    RW is a cog in the machine, albeit an important one. Man worship is a poison is the minds of all humanity.

    The formula that wins Lombardi trophies/SB rings is infinitely more important and we have a legitimate and actual factual baseline for this IN...Seattle Washington and across the NFL and football in general. Lose worshiping or die trying.

    Backs score touchdowns, linemen win games. Build an All Pro line, superbowls follow REGARDLESS of who is behind them.


    Tell that to modern Dallas. Their previous QB always tried to do too much and choked out each time and lost the game for the team with it on his shoulders and always seemed to turn the ball over and the worst times. Not unlike us this year. Unlike their 90s teams, they don't have a defense and solid STs.

    There's more to it than that.


    Nah, a pure zone blocking scheme will always make the QB suffer in pass protection.


    Ok well....

    That actually made me think for a second there.

    If you're an OL and you're selling run, where you're firing off at a gap angle instead of a man, how does that effect pass blocking?

    The answer is that it doesn't. AT ALL.

    Unless the defense is actually concerned about the run. If they aren't, they're just going to shoot gaps and have the QB dead to rights.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:45 pm
  • vin.couve12 wrote:
    Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:
    Sox-n-Hawks wrote:Backs score touchdowns, linemen win games. Build an All Pro line, superbowls follow REGARDLESS of who is behind them.


    Tell that to modern Dallas. Their previous QB always tried to do too much and choked out each time and lost the game for the team with it on his shoulders and always seemed to turn the ball over and the worst times. Not unlike us this year. Unlike their 90s teams, they don't have a defense and solid STs.

    There's more to it than that.


    Nah, a pure zone blocking scheme will always make the QB suffer in pass protection.


    Ok well....

    That actually made me think for a second there.

    If you're an OL and you're selling run, where you're firing off at a gap angle instead of a man, how does that effect pass blocking?

    The answer is that it doesn't. AT ALL.

    Unless the defense is actually concerned about the run. If they aren't, they're just going to shoot gaps and have the QB dead to rights.


    It is more about the nuances of the ZBS. Each blocker has tells as to which way they're moving feet, hands for each play. It's subconscious. Once there are a couple of seasons of film study on each ZBS team, they dwindle. How many PURE ZBS teams are left. Pitt? Gone. Saints? Gone. Atlanta? Gone.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:28 am
  • vin.couve12 wrote:
    austinslater25 wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:It's not all the line in that scenario. He can't step up in the pocket and see Baldwin on a shallow cross, for instance. Physics literally dictates it's not possible. Seeing is the problem, not release point. He can step up soemwhat on longer routes, but not shallow ones. It's one of the same reasons why he takes deeper pass drops (an actual stat) and also doesn't operate much under center. Not that I expect crazies to admit things like physics, but a RB to go along with Carson and a better OL should maximize our play action game again. I was laughing at how wide open the Jags receivers and tight ends were against PIT. Their running game forced the PIT defense take a half second to read run and it slowed their defense down a lot.

    We get that going and RW's rating goes back up to what it was a few years ago. If not, it'll just be more of the same. MAYBE playoffs, but an early exit.

    Brees, Rapey, and Ryan are all home right now. They lost to no name QBs on teams who run the ball, play defense and ST, and just aren't all about that lie that is hero ball.


    I wish this theory would die. Multiple ex NFL quarterbacks have said this is largely false as they see through lanes not dorectly over the top of a lineman. Even taller guys struggle to see over a lineman because of the distance to the receiver and the lineman themselves. He has hit every single throw a quarterback can make at one time or another. He bails early and often because the line is terrible, he's gotten a little anticipatory and he knows him extending the play is sometimes the only way to sustain a drive......not because he can't see over a 6ft 4 inch lineman because no one can see over lineman that big.

    The latter statement is absolutely false. Where you're right is where other things can be done to compensate. I'll also throw out there that there are pros and cons to every QB. I still maintain that the Seattle Seahawks should never prove anything on behalf of Russell Wilson.

    Seattle Seahawks > Russell Wilson

    RW is a cog in the machine, albeit an important one. Man worship is a poison is the minds of all humanity.

    The formula that wins Lombardi trophies/SB rings is infinitely more important and we have a legitimate and actual factual baseline for this IN...Seattle Washington and across the NFL and football in general. Lose worshiping or die trying.

    :2thumbs:You tried ..
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:58 am
  • It would just be nice to see an OC who uses Wilson the way he should. The short passing game and screen passes need to be a part of this offense. And, please please please.......an actual running game.
    Last edited by SoulfishHawk on Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:10 am
  • Hopefully he actually aludibles out of a couple of plays this year.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:46 am
  • I know they are not fans of the QB sneak, but where I sit at the games, I had a great viewpoint of some EASY first downs on 3rd and short if he just calls it and dives to the left of the Center. I just hope they get creative once in awhile and don't just continue the same old predictable stuff. They need to adjust better and play 4 quarters, not just the 2nd half. It's maddening the way the offense has been run the last couple seasons. You are supposed to build your Offense around the QB, especially once w/unique talents. He is one of the best QB's in the league, period. Looking forward to seeing him used correctly. He can do anything on the field imo.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:13 am
  • So much crow being self-served up in this thread, and so much blind RW hate. Made several of my brain cells self-destruct before I stopped reading. Problem with the self-serve crow is that when RW actually has a line these people will be either lurking exclusively, or sneaking onto his bandwagon.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:20 am
  • Wilson had a line at Wisconsin and was among the top three QBs, as a passer. The running was a cherry on top. Oh, and their OL was as big or bigger than NFL lines. Still didn't have a problem playing from the pocket.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:37 am
  • The Media types and former players who just can't accept that he IS a good passer from the pocket is hilarious.
    But we are used to the blatant refusal to accept him for what he is, one of the best in the game.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:44 am
  • I am impressed. You guys made some excellent points. I did not see anyone go off the rails with their analyses. From what I gather reading your comments is that it still comes down the O line, a running game and how Pete wants to use Russell. Being an old lineman and coaching the line I have my biases. I feel that games are won and loss on the line. That being said, I know I will take heat for this, but we got Jimmy Graham. He is a great receiver and probably pulled us out of a lot of jams this year with his TD catches. There is a price to pay. Pete was successful with the run game and I always had the impression he was a run first guy. Then he goes after Graham who cannot block. Add to this a line that has changed numerous times in the last two so much that one cannot keep track of the starters it is a recipe for disaster. If our line was better or coaching better on the line (make your choice) perhaps this would not have been an issue. We have had to go away from where our strength was ......the running game. When this happened, of course, Jimmy became more of an asset. I like Jimmy but Pete is going to have to make a choice. This is just me, I would rather have big good blocking tight end that can catch especially if we are going to run. Most of the teams are rushing guys from the outside to contain Russell. Whomever we place at tackles has to have mobility. Ifedi is more suited to be a guard than a tackle. IMO
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:16 am
  • This team hasn't had a truly great blocking Tight End since Z. Miller. He was basically an extra lineman.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:50 am
  • Fade wrote:The Russell holding the ball thing, is where I think the "he can't see" thing comes from. When really most of the time, it's all of his receivers running deep, and he has to wait for the routes to develop. Pete Carroll is obsessed with the deep ball. Seattle has been allergic to intermediate route concepts, and a lack of safety valve options on deeper routes, making it even harder on their QB to be successful.

    Also to early in games Pete doesn't want Russell taking risks so he wants Russell to only pull the trigger if a guy is wide open. Which forces Russ to hold the ball, and also I think it leads to inaccuracy because you're overthinking it and trying to place it in a perfect spot. Rather than --> see target, hit target. Which is a better philosophy imo.


    Excellent analysis. Exactly what people need to be noticing.

    For contrast, look at the below cut-up of the Eagles game, one of Wilson's best games of 2017. People assume he must have gotten better pass protection during the game because they're relying on football cliches ("the line is all that matters and enables everything") rather than on visual assessment and data. But look carefully (after the first three passes, #2 and #3 were an exception) at how quickly Wilson's getting the ball out.

    https://streamable.com/xtby3

    The ball was often out under 2 seconds. Quick, pre-determined throws. That stands in comparison to his overall 2017 time-to-throw, which was 3.05 seconds.

    That Eagles game was a repeat of 2015, during which, as vin.couver12 pointed out, Wilson saw success because he morphed into a quick-passer who didn't hold onto the ball long. The gameplan, not the OL, protected Wilson. Indeed, on the longer throws against the Eagles, you get the sense that the line wasn't really holding up any better than the rest of the season.

    So why didn't Wilson get the benefit of this gameplan more often?

    Because Pete. Just like Fade said. Deep ball. Explosive plays. Dishearten the defense. Win forever. "Our brand of football" and yadda yadda. He's a prideful coach who believes devoutly in his philosophy. The play-calling has been the most influential factor on Wilson. There are offensive coordinators out there who are known for getting their QB's sacked. Pete was one of them. Would a better line help? Yes. But they didn't have a better line. What they DID have was the ability to adapt on offense - and they didn't do it.

    And Pete is still the head coach of the Seahawks. Brian Schottenheimer is still going to be calling the plays how Pete wants them called. And Pete is still going to want the deep bomb, which will continue to put pressure on the offensive line and expose their weaknesses. We can keep griping about the line all we want, but the fact remains that problems on the line are actually one of the easiest personnel deficiencies in pro football to work around, and if the coaching staff doesn't do it, that's on them, not the line.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:11 am
  • This is a team game. Russell doesn't help the line by holding on to the ball longer than every QB in the league except Watson. Maybe that's because of Bevell's slow developing route schemes. Maybe it's because Russell doesn't want to throw it until the receiver is WIDE open. (This is my theory as to why his deep balls are always underthrown or contested. And the only timing routes we use are fades.) Maybe it's because Russell hasn't been coached to get rid of it and keep the chains moving.

    Whatever it is, he's giving up a ton a sacks because he won't step up in the pocket and deliver the ball. And that doesn't have anything to do with his height.

    Don't get me wrong. I like him and he's a good QB. But if I'm on that line, I'm ready to choke him for making me look like an a-hole week after week.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:33 am
  • So it's his fault they rarely block for him? :?

    5 win team w/out him, period.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:51 am
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:So it's his fault they rarely block for him? :?


    They block well enough to enable his second read probably about 80% of the time. More than that, is on him and Pete.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:55 am
  • Matter of opinion I guess, swiss cheese O Line, all year long.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:38 am
  • GeekHawk wrote:So much crow being self-served up in this thread, and so much blind RW hate. Made several of my brain cells self-destruct before I stopped reading. Problem with the self-serve crow is that when RW actually has a line these people will be either lurking exclusively, or sneaking onto his bandwagon.

    Ain't giving up MY seat on the Bandwagon to no wishy-washy Johnny-come-lately fans :mrgreen:
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:48 am
  • BigBill1945 wrote:I am impressed. You guys made some excellent points. I did not see anyone go off the rails with their analyses. From what I gather reading your comments is that it still comes down the O line, a running game and how Pete wants to use Russell. Being an old lineman and coaching the line I have my biases. I feel that games are won and loss on the line. That being said, I know I will take heat for this, but we got Jimmy Graham. He is a great receiver and probably pulled us out of a lot of jams this year with his TD catches. There is a price to pay. Pete was successful with the run game and I always had the impression he was a run first guy. Then he goes after Graham who cannot block. Add to this a line that has changed numerous times in the last two so much that one cannot keep track of the starters it is a recipe for disaster. If our line was better or coaching better on the line (make your choice) perhaps this would not have been an issue. We have had to go away from where our strength was ......the running game. When this happened, of course, Jimmy became more of an asset. I like Jimmy but Pete is going to have to make a choice. This is just me, I would rather have big good blocking tight end that can catch especially if we are going to run. Most of the teams are rushing guys from the outside to contain Russell. Whomever we place at tackles has to have mobility. Ifedi is more suited to be a guard than a tackle. IMO

    No heat from me...I happen to agree with everything you're saying, ESPECIALLY the part about Ifedi playing at GUARD.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:53 am
  • GeekHawk wrote:So much crow being self-served up in this thread, and so much blind RW hate. Made several of my brain cells self-destruct before I stopped reading. Problem with the self-serve crow is that when RW actually has a line these people will be either lurking exclusively, or sneaking onto his bandwagon.


    It’s not blind RW hate. What’s more disturbing is the people that see RW as having absolutely no faults or weaknesses. He does. I’m glad RW is our QB, but the man isn’t perfect.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:56 am
  • hedgehawk wrote:It’s not blind RW hate.


    From you it's not. From one particular poster who I won't call out by name (but is obvious to anybody who reads this thread from end-to-end) it is. Blind RW hate, without reason.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:09 am
  • RussB wrote:Depends on the offensive line. Wilson has had a bad o line for so long now that he is just used to bailing the pocket so much. He gets pressured instantly and has to run around and try to make some schoolyard stuff happen. He even does it when he doesnt have to and actually has a clean pocket.

    He just needs a consistent o line where he can make reads from the pocket and needs to have a good offensive coordinator dialing up the plays and game planning to attack defenses. No more of this scramble BS its not successful long term they need an actual offensive system. His mobility will still come in handy though.


    I hope one day some of you extreme Homers will realize that RW plays a huge part in the issues with the offensive line. This year in particular we had a pretty decent line when it was Brown/Joeckel/Britt/Pocic/Ifedi and RW still played poorly. I remember being at the stadium in the season finale against Arizona watching Brown look towards the sideline towards the coaching staff with his hands in the air basically saying "how do you expect me to block for this guy." Wilson can't see over the line. He scrambles out of the pocket early and goes wide so he can survey the field. A lineman that doesn't have a clue where his QB is at is a problem. There's a reason Brown's normal protection numbers dwindled while trying to protect RW. As long a RW is QB Seattle will be the place O-Lineman come to die. His height is a major downfall and the league has figured out how to restrain him. There's a reason most big time FA lineman have passed on coming here. That will not change. I used to be a huge RW fan but the last year and a half have opened my eyes greatly. I only hope this new coaching staff can find a way to make him a better pocket passer and to trust his protection. Otherwise Seahawks are going no where near another championship.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:21 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:[
    We can keep griping about the line all we want, but the fact remains that problems on the line are actually one of the easiest personnel deficiencies in pro football to work around, and if the coaching staff doesn't do it, that's on them, not the line.

    I don't know that they are one of the easiest personnel deficiencies to work around. If you have Tom Brady and Peyton Manning then yes. But in the Eagles game and for a stretch in 2015 it did seem that Russell was able to operate in a quick(er) passing offense. I read analysis - wish I remembered where - where the approach was used vs the Eagles because they are a man-coverage team so rub routes were available. Presumably against predominantly zone teams your quick passes can get you in more trouble, e.g. a passing lane opens for Wilson but as the receiver flashes by he has to wonder if he's missing a safety or LB lurking just out of his window.

    The best sample set is end of 2015 and it's really tough when that's all we have to go on. Defenses saw what happened in Wilson's first year with the read/zone and it never rose to the same effectiveness. I'm not prepared to say that opposing defenses didn't see something in 2015 that they buckled down on.

    But even acknowledging the limited sample size, the deep ball obsession just feels so...Pete.

    I would modify your last sentence just a bit. I would say that the coaching staff can have a deep-bomb offense or a crappy cheap OL, but they can't have both. If Pete is allergic to quick passing, and only wants to pound the rock and take deep shots off of PA, then he can't simultaneously be el cheapo on the OL. It's perfectly valid for Pete to want to run his offense a certain way, but if he's going to be inflexible about quick passing then he'll have to be flexible somewhere else, e.g. the cap and the OL.

    The way he's been doing it the last few years has just been schizophrenic self-sabotage on offense.
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Re: Russell Wilson
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:42 am
  • hawk45 wrote:I would modify your last sentence just a bit. I would say that the coaching staff can have a deep-bomb offense or a crappy cheap OL, but they can't have both. If Pete is allergic to quick passing, and only wants to pound the rock and take deep shots off of PA, then he can't simultaneously be el cheapo on the OL. It's perfectly valid for Pete to want to run his offense a certain way, but if he's going to be inflexible about quick passing then he'll have to be flexible somewhere else, e.g. the cap and the OL.

    The way he's been doing it the last few years has just been schizophrenic self-sabotage on offense.


    Exactly.

    But you'd be amazed at how much further the lessening of the OL's importance goes beyond just Manning. Pittsburgh's was average when they won the SB. Aaron Rodgers is one of the league's most sacked QBs and does his best work out of the pocket. If the OL mattered as much as most people think, Dallas should have won the last eight Super Bowls. Oakland had a great OL last year - didn't help. Cleveland's OL is good. Cleveland. It isn't magically enabling any QB's back there. The correlation isn't there.

    Even David Carr's OL suddenly looked better once he was replaced by Matt Schaub, while Carr's sack rate followed him to two other teams almost precisely.

    Whereas good QB + meh OL has proven over and over again to be a viable strategy. That's how the Seahawks won it all.
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