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Pete Carroll Consolidating Control over team?

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  • So, with these hires, I'm seeing this opinion a lot around twitter and reddit and am curious as to what y'all think.

    The idea is that Pete hired people who won't question his decisions about philosophy/scheme and maybe personnel. Rex Ryan gave a great interview on Brock and Salk today and the story he used to describe Schotty highlighted his loyalty to the HC. To summarize, the Jets were playing Detroit and Rex said they should run the ball at least 40 times. Turns out, the Lions stacked the box and the Jets couldn't do it and ended up down 21-0. Rex asked Schotty what they were doing and he said he was committed to running 40 times like Rex said but that he also believed the Jets O could throw on the Lions. Rex got the offense together and asked them if they wanted to follow the original plan or win and they players naturally said win, so he told Schotty to change to the hurry-up and throw it and the jets forced OT and won.

    This story shows how loyal Schotty is to the HC's plan. One huge plus was that Austin Davis said Schotty will bring us a consistent screen game, which we desperately need. With Ken Norton, the argument is similar. Pete has Ken in to motivate/inspire, but the defense truly belongs to Pete. Basically, Pete is going down doing it his way.

    The question is, is this what's happening and if so, will it work? If they can fix the OL and get younger/healthier on defense, I don't see why not, BUT this is the opposite of the evolution many of us were calling for, myself included. Curiously, of the teams remaining in the playoffs, three run creative offenses. The Pats are obviously the Pats and they're always on the cutting edge, the Vikings under Shurmur do an excellent job of mixing things up, and the Eagles use motions, RPOs, cool WR sweeps, among many other creative concepts. The Jags are probably what Pete wants us to be. Not sure they're very creative, but they outmuscle the opposing defense with their RB and OL and smother opposing offenses with an incredible defense.
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  • People are inserting these over the top reactions because they have no real insight, no actual relevant experience, or they’re paid for hyperbole. Yes, Pete wants more control than he had before when he picked the last staff.
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  • I don't think it's a question of "control," per se. As Executive Vice President and Head Coach, Carroll already has as much control as any coach in the league.

    It's more of a question of getting the right guys in here who are capable of executing his vision. There was only so long that they could blame the unbearably slow starts and lack of rushing attempts (20th each of the last two seasons) on the players' failure to convert 3rd downs.

    Carroll will support his new coaches and give them every opportunity to succeed by winning championships.
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  • adeltaY wrote:So, with these hires, I'm seeing this opinion a lot around twitter and reddit and am curious as to what y'all think.

    The idea is that Pete hired people who won't question his decisions about philosophy/scheme and maybe personnel. Rex Ryan gave a great interview on Brock and Salk today and the story he used to describe Schotty highlighted his loyalty to the HC. To summarize, the Jets were playing Detroit and Rex said they should run the ball at least 40 times. Turns out, the Lions stacked the box and the Jets couldn't do it and ended up down 21-0. Rex asked Schotty what they were doing and he said he was committed to running 40 times like Rex said but that he also believed the Jets O could throw on the Lions. Rex got the offense together and asked them if they wanted to follow the original plan or win and they players naturally said win, so he told Schotty to change to the hurry-up and throw it and the jets forced OT and won.

    This story shows how loyal Schotty is to the HC's plan. One huge plus was that Austin Davis said Schotty will bring us a consistent screen game, which we desperately need. With Ken Norton, the argument is similar. Pete has Ken in to motivate/inspire, but the defense truly belongs to Pete. Basically, Pete is going down doing it his way.

    The question is, is this what's happening and if so, will it work? If they can fix the OL and get younger/healthier on defense, I don't see why not, BUT this is the opposite of the evolution many of us were calling for, myself included. Curiously, of the teams remaining in the playoffs, three run creative offenses. The Pats are obviously the Pats and they're always on the cutting edge, the Vikings under Shurmur do an excellent job of mixing things up, and the Eagles use motions, RPOs, cool WR sweeps, among many other creative concepts. The Jags are probably what Pete wants us to be. Not sure they're very creative, but they outmuscle the opposing defense with their RB and OL and smother opposing offenses with an incredible defense.


    Wasn't Rex at the meetings in the week prior on how they were going to attack the Lions, they should have made the game plan then, waiting to make that statement during the game is a failure on Rex's part, yes Brian was probably doing what he asked but also explains Ryans failure.
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  • Does anyone think Cable got too much of a hold over the team?

    Why else would Pete be doing this? And how did that even happen in the first place, because of the success of Lynch?

    Weird.
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  • In my opinion PC is 100% hiring a team of “yes men”.
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  • Chris, you are right in that Rex's strategy was wrong. Shotty stuck with it even when it wasn't working until Rex realized in game that it wasn't working and asked for a change.
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  • Yes men or men he can trust. I believe the issues on offense V defense are two different things. Offense flat just needs a shake up, to much time equals to much comfort. Defense is Pete's baby, my guess is Richard had some different ideas, Pete gave him some rope and well, it didn't work out.
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  • Who wants to be the first to march up to Ken Norton Jr. and tell him he’s a yes man?

    Anyone?
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  • sc85sis wrote:Who wants to be the first to march up to Ken Norton Jr. and tell him he’s a yes man?

    Anyone?


    Pete already did probably lol
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  • There were rumors (Jay Glazer) that Pete was going to retire very soon. So I think this is his last hurrah so to speak. Going out with guys he trusts more aka more experienced veteran coaching. It actually makes sense who he picked, no rookie coordinators need apply. After this year or maybe next, Paul Allen will be looking for a new coach.
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  • jake206 wrote:There were rumors (Jay Glazer) that Pete was going to retire very soon. So I think this is his last hurrah so to speak. Going out with guys he trusts more aka more experienced veteran coaching. It actually makes sense who he picked, no rookie coordinators need apply. After this year or maybe next, Paul Allen will be looking for a new coach.


    My thought exactly, Allen might also hinted an ultimatum: win now or out. Pete wants to out in his own way, he has no time or patience to fight, father, or debate a young coordinator with different ideas.

    Can also understand from Allen's perspective, seeing 9ers and Lambs having young, new HC.
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  • The original Defense was all Carroll's scheme... I have no problem with him wanting a guy who runs what Pete wants run to a T in Norton.

    Schotty isn't exciting, but he'll commit to running and he won't likely run a HB draw 90% of the time on 3rd and long.

    People freaking out that the head coach is guys who will blindly run his philosophies, but what do you want out of a head coach? Just the head of human resources and challenge flag monkey?
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  • So we got one more year of Pete from the sounds of it and he's going out his way.

    I love Pete so I'm hoping it goes the way he envisions but if the rumors are true, this next offseason is going to be very interesting and we didn't wade in deep with any young and upcoming future replacement types so once Petes had his kick at the can, sounds like new regime and whole new hires all around.
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  • I dunno about this being all about Carroll hiring "Yes Men", him needing total "power and control" and all of that. That's one way of looking at things I suppose.

    Another is the idea of assembling together a staff that actually appears to have a unified vision. These last couple of years especially, I don't know that I can honestly say that our coaching staff has had a unified philosophy behind the scenes. Sure Pete and the rest of the coaches would say the right things for the public ... but I don't know that I ever truly got the sense they were actually all on the same page. I feel more like Pete has gone out and assembled guys who truly DO actually have the same basic core values that he does:

    Smash-Mouth, Run the Football Down People's Throats
    Control the Line of Scrimmage
    Once Bashed into Submission, Hit the Defense with Big Strikes
    Aggressive Attack Mentality -- Being the Bully (both on defense and now on offense)

    This coaching staff may not be overly "sexy" in terms of having the latest up and coming young hotshots, but in the end, I can see this group having far greater success than 2017. In the end, I believe they WILL end up guiding this Seahawks team back to the Playoffs in 2018.
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  • Pete is here through 2019.
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  • KitsapGuy wrote:Pete is here through 2019.


    contractually, but if he decides to ride off into the sunset, that's his call.
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  • He told PA that he is "All In" at the end of the season. So I believe he'll honor his contract.

    Gruden is out. But once Pete does retire, we'll see what happens with Harbaugh and Saban.
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  • "Whatever you do in life, surround yourself with smart people who'll argue with you." John Wooden


    I love Pete, but I'm concerned with this direction. People have used "Yes Men", and it seems fitting.

    My question is why can't coaches argue with you, but ultimately follow the lead and direction you call for.. If you can't get them to do that, isn't that a lack of leadership on his part?
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  • lukerguy wrote:
    "Whatever you do in life, surround yourself with smart people who'll argue with you." John Wooden


    I love Pete, but I'm concerned with this direction. People have used "Yes Men", and it seems fitting.

    My question is why can't coaches argue with you, but ultimately follow the lead and direction you call for.. If you can't get them to do that, isn't that a lack of leadership on his part?


    I am seeing this a lot with respect to comments on these hires. People make a huge (read most likely false) presumption and then, asserting that presumption is true, turn it into some referendum on Pete. The fact is someone can share a vision and philosophy with another and still challenge/question them. There is zero reason to create a false dichotomy here.
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  • I don't like the term 'yes men' at all, it undermines the coaches somewhat and gives the impression that any old body off the street could do what they're doing and just say 'yes sir' to everything PC dictates. Utter nonsense IMO.

    What Pete wants is people who share his philosophy and can preach it in a positive way to the players. Let's be honest, Pete's philosophy obviously works. Look at his success here. He is likely the best coach the Seahawks will ever have, hope that isn't true, but it's certainly possible.

    Regardless of when Pete decides to retire (my bet is after the 2019 season, once his contract is up) he will leave this team in damn good shape.
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  • KitsapGuy wrote:





    1) What Scott is he referring to?

    2) While his much-ballyhooed source may be real, there really isn't anything in here that any semi-intelligent fan couldn't have inferred on their own.

    3) He's contradicting himself now; he said earlier that DeFillippo didn't want to come to Seattle.
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  • NFSeahawks628 wrote:Does anyone think Cable got too much of a hold over the team?.


    He certainly had too much control over the run game, O-line and most importantly draft and development of the O-line.

    Pete trusted Cable, and it backfired. So it only makes sense he's now hiring coordinators that know EXACTLY how he wants things run, on both sides of the ball.

    Will it work? I have no idea, but for a coach with only two years left on his contract? Sure as hell makes sense, if Pete's going to go down, he's going to go down doing what he trusts.
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  • I wish Carroll would take more control over the draft process. Schneider and his guys deserve a share of the blame for not drafting players like Ryan Ramczyk & Joel Bitonio, and instead drafting a 2nd center (Pocic), Rees Odhiambo, etc. So many linemen brought in by the scouting department have been horrible (Tobin, Sowell, Aboushi, Webb, etc.).
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  • hawknation2018 wrote:I wish Carroll would take more control over the draft process. Schneider and his guys deserve a share of the blame for not drafting players like Ryan Ramczyk & Joel Bitonio, and instead drafting a 2nd center (Pocic), Rees Odhiambo, etc. So many linemen brought in by the scouting department have been horrible (Tobin, Sowell, Aboushi, Webb, etc.).


    I think you will see Carroll take over now that Cable's gone. Should be no more "Cable guys."

    Solari is a more traditional line coach, with more traditional blocking schemes............which should help simplify what we need out of our lineman.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    KitsapGuy wrote:





    1) What Scott is he referring to?

    2) While his much-ballyhooed source may be real, there really isn't anything in here that any semi-intelligent fan couldn't have inferred on their own.

    3) He's contradicting himself now; he said earlier that DeFillippo didn't want to come to Seattle.


    I mean I'm very far from believing everything this guy says... BUT in regards to #3, in theory that could be precisely why he didn't want to come here
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  • I'm honestly a huge fan of the moves this offseason.

    Carroll and Co. have gotten weak in terms of sticking to the Carroll philosophy. Too much autonomy was given to coordinators and Cable in particular, it seems, and Carroll is refocusing the coach roster in an attempt to get back to having a completely cohesive coaching staff. Everyone on the same page.

    Solari is more traditional and can coach both zone and man blocking. As it was said above, no more "Cable guys" with minimal experience that he wants as a blank slate. Schottenheimer has coached some great rushing attacks with minimal talent and Solari, who is scheme-versatile, can work with Schottenheimer to craft a more balanced offense that can rush at will.

    Schottenheimer offenses seem to emphasize balance, despite the absolute lack of talent he's had throughout his career. While he has experience as a QB coach and is fluent in gameplanning for the air game, he has proven his mettle as a coordinator who can provide a good rushing attack. Overall results have lacked, just as the talent he's provided with has. We'll see what he can do in Seattle with an all-pro level QB.

    As for the defense, Norton is what's needed. He isn't a master strategist or play-caller, but he is a motivator of elite caliber and his guys will run into the fire at his command. That's what Pete needed, a guy to rally the troops. Norton's lack of proficiency X and O's wise lead me to believe Pete is reining in the defense and taking more control over it, while Norton is there to provide attitude and a voice consistent with Pete's vision for the D.

    I love how Pete is changing the staff to align with his vision - as long as Pete gets back to his philosophy, and it is a WINNING philosophy, I expect improvement.
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  • I don't believe for one second the KR and Bevell had free reign in their play calling. If that were true why did it take so long for everyone to get their pink slips? Those assistants were doing what Pete wanted them to do. They got tossed because there was no denying the results anymore and apparently PA didn't want Pete to go.

    The fact that Pete wants to be a run first team and doesn't use a full back at all or a blocking TE is absolutely asinine. I will hold my tongue until after FA and the draft but as of right now I'm not sure I see any improvement to the team yet.
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  • seahawkfreak wrote:I don't believe for one second the KR and Bevell had free reign in their play calling. If that were true why did it take so long for everyone to get their pink slips? Those assistants were doing what Pete wanted them to do. They got tossed because there was no denying the results anymore and apparently PA didn't want Pete to go.

    The fact that Pete wants to be a run first team and doesn't use a full back at all or a blocking TE is absolutely asinine. I will hold my tongue until after FA and the draft but as of right now I'm not sure I see any improvement to the team yet.


    Interesting take, but this is Petes last chance it's either going to work or it isn't and he'll be gone.

    I'd be happy with 2 SB's I'd say that's successful.
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  • adeltaY wrote: Rex Ryan gave a great interview on Brock and Salk today and the story he used to describe Schotty highlighted his loyalty to the HC.


    As soon as I heard this I knew it would be the topic of a Seahawks.net thread. I get it though, people are concerned that Pete is so stuck in his ways that he will doggedly stick to a pound-it-out offense whether we have the personnel to do it or not. I don't think that is the case.

    I think these hires have more to do w/hiring hiring real football coaches than that. Personally, I was ecstatic when I heard KN Jr. was coming back, I think KR was a little too soft for elite-D egos.

    Ultimately, the blame for any organization falls on the HC's head so that is his prerogative and at this stage of the game he wasn't about to gamble on someone. Pete has a formula but what he really wants to do is compete/win. Who can argue w/that?

    These are real professionals, we'll be fine.
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  • sc85sis wrote:Who wants to be the first to march up to Ken Norton Jr. and tell him he’s a yes man?

    Anyone?


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  • AF_BASS_MAN wrote:
    sc85sis wrote:Who wants to be the first to march up to Ken Norton Jr. and tell him he’s a yes man?

    Anyone?


    Pete already did probably lol

    :roll:
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  • Danny Darko wrote:The original Defense was all Carroll's scheme... I have no problem with him wanting a guy who runs what Pete wants run to a T in Norton.

    Schotty isn't exciting, but he'll commit to running and he won't likely run a HB draw 90% of the time on 3rd and long.

    People freaking out that the head coach is guys who will blindly run his philosophies, but what do you want out of a head coach? Just the head of human resources and challenge flag monkey?

    Yep, Pete has PROVEN that he has enough Moxie to win a Lombardi, and challenge for another.
    So he should do what? relinquish control of his HC responsibilities, just to appease a few piss & moaners?? :pukeface:
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  • As if a head coach gives a rats butt what anyone else thinks about how he does things.
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  • Milehighhawk wrote:
    lukerguy wrote:
    "Whatever you do in life, surround yourself with smart people who'll argue with you." John Wooden


    I love Pete, but I'm concerned with this direction. People have used "Yes Men", and it seems fitting.

    My question is why can't coaches argue with you, but ultimately follow the lead and direction you call for.. If you can't get them to do that, isn't that a lack of leadership on his part?


    I am seeing this a lot with respect to comments on these hires. People make a huge (read most likely false) presumption and then, asserting that presumption is true, turn it into some referendum on Pete. The fact is someone can share a vision and philosophy with another and still challenge/question them. There is zero reason to create a false dichotomy here.

    Yes, but, he only wants to surround himself with "Yes Men", fits with their negative beliefs of Pete Carroll...They've picked up that Incomplete Pass, and are going to continue running with it.
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  • I'm confused, did Pete not have complete control before? I've never heard any reports of friction between Pete and Bevell, or any anecdotes about Bevell arguing with a direction Pete wanted to go in. And if the stories of XLIX are true, it was Pete's idea to throw from the 1, and Bevell went with it. So where is this "consolidation of power" stuff coming from? He's always had it.

    It's weird, we've spent years calling for offensive coaches' heads because their product on the field sucked, and now that they're gone we think it's part of a vast conspiracy. Don't overthink it. Bevell and Cable were sent packing because they're offense only declined after Lynch left to the point where it finally cost us the playoffs. And now Pete is bringing in guys with similar philosophies but fresh eyes. I don't think there's much more to any of this.

    Sheesh, we haven't even lost a game in 2018 yet and we're already spouting some Alex Jones "deep state" nonsense. We wanted Bevell gone, we got it. I'll continue to trust the only coach in Seahawks history to hoist a Lombardi.
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  • Maelstrom787 wrote:I'm honestly a huge fan of the moves this offseason.

    Carroll and Co. have gotten weak in terms of sticking to the Carroll philosophy. Too much autonomy was given to coordinators and Cable in particular, it seems, and Carroll is refocusing the coach roster in an attempt to get back to having a completely cohesive coaching staff. Everyone on the same page.

    Solari is more traditional and can coach both zone and man blocking. As it was said above, no more "Cable guys" with minimal experience that he wants as a blank slate. Schottenheimer has coached some great rushing attacks with minimal talent and Solari, who is scheme-versatile, can work with Schottenheimer to craft a more balanced offense that can rush at will.

    Schottenheimer offenses seem to emphasize balance, despite the absolute lack of talent he's had throughout his career. While he has experience as a QB coach and is fluent in gameplanning for the air game, he has proven his mettle as a coordinator who can provide a good rushing attack. Overall results have lacked, just as the talent he's provided with has. We'll see what he can do in Seattle with an all-pro level QB.

    As for the defense, Norton is what's needed. He isn't a master strategist or play-caller, but he is a motivator of elite caliber and his guys will run into the fire at his command. That's what Pete needed, a guy to rally the troops. Norton's lack of proficiency X and O's wise lead me to believe Pete is reining in the defense and taking more control over it, while Norton is there to provide attitude and a voice consistent with Pete's vision for the D.

    I love how Pete is changing the staff to align with his vision - as long as Pete gets back to his philosophy, and it is a WINNING philosophy, I expect improvement.

    Agreed ^
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  • There's no conspiracy, Pete appears to be doubling down and right now that disappoints me. I wanted to see a creative offense with motions, misdirection, innovative play designs to make it easier for Russ and our other offensive players to get open and make plays.

    We will definitely be seeing that kind of offense at least four times a year...
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  • adeltaY wrote:There's no conspiracy, Pete appears to be doubling down and right now that disappoints me. I wanted to see a creative offense with motions, misdirection, innovative play designs to make it easier for Russ and our other offensive players to get open and make plays.

    We will definitely be seeing that kind of offense at least four times a year...


    Several of us warned about the offense being Pete's as much as Bevells. Expecting that to change much was a long shot IMO. 2 more years and I suspect there will be a good shot for the flavor of the week offense.

    Hell, if they can build a good screen and running game and fix the oline, I'll consider that a big improvement myself.
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  • adeltaY wrote:So, with these hires, I'm seeing this opinion a lot around twitter and reddit and am curious as to what y'all think.

    The idea is that Pete hired people who won't question his decisions about philosophy/scheme and maybe personnel. Rex Ryan gave a great interview on Brock and Salk today and the story he used to describe Schotty highlighted his loyalty to the HC. To summarize, the Jets were playing Detroit and Rex said they should run the ball at least 40 times. Turns out, the Lions stacked the box and the Jets couldn't do it and ended up down 21-0. Rex asked Schotty what they were doing and he said he was committed to running 40 times like Rex said but that he also believed the Jets O could throw on the Lions. Rex got the offense together and asked them if they wanted to follow the original plan or win and they players naturally said win, so he told Schotty to change to the hurry-up and throw it and the jets forced OT and won.

    This story shows how loyal Schotty is to the HC's plan. One huge plus was that Austin Davis said Schotty will bring us a consistent screen game, which we desperately need. With Ken Norton, the argument is similar. Pete has Ken in to motivate/inspire, but the defense truly belongs to Pete. Basically, Pete is going down doing it his way.

    The question is, is this what's happening and if so, will it work? If they can fix the OL and get younger/healthier on defense, I don't see why not, BUT this is the opposite of the evolution many of us were calling for, myself included. Curiously, of the teams remaining in the playoffs, three run creative offenses. The Pats are obviously the Pats and they're always on the cutting edge, the Vikings under Shurmur do an excellent job of mixing things up, and the Eagles use motions, RPOs, cool WR sweeps, among many other creative concepts. The Jags are probably what Pete wants us to be. Not sure they're very creative, but they outmuscle the opposing defense with their RB and OL and smother opposing offenses with an incredible defense.


    This says more about what a terrible coach Rex is than how bad an OC Schotty is. The coaches are subordinate to the head coach.
    Russell has some stats that aren't Superb? Ow! Love his balls anyways!

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  • How does Pete "consolidate" control over the team when he has always had control? It was part of his hire and the relationship with the FO. He is Executive VP of football operation. He has final decision on all matters regarding the team. He has nothing to "Consolidate".
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    KitsapGuy wrote:





    1) What Scott is he referring to?

    2) While his much-ballyhooed source may be real, there really isn't anything in here that any semi-intelligent fan couldn't have inferred on their own.

    3) He's contradicting himself now; he said earlier that DeFillippo didn't want to come to Seattle.


    #fakenews
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  • As if anything David Poo says has any value.
    R.I.P. THE EDGAR, YOU WILL BE MISSED......
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:As if anything David Poo says has any value.


    It’s enough to have his tweets constantly placed on the forum :)
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  • Down Under Hawk wrote:How does Pete "consolidate" control over the team when he has always had control? It was part of his hire and the relationship with the FO. He is Executive VP of football operation. He has final decision on all matters regarding the team. He has nothing to "Consolidate".


    This ^^

    Only way he could have more control is to fire Schneider and take over the GM duties himself.

    I just see this as Pete going with guys he knows, trusts and will continue to operate with his vision in mind.

    TBH, I have no problem with his vision and basic tenets. Other teams like Minnesota and Jacksonville run under similar tenets. They are doing pretty well this year. Because in the end it's all about the horses.

    When Pete and john started this mission, the credo was bigger, stronger, faster. I think they need to go back and get some big nasty fast players, coach em up and unleash them on the NFL. We've gotten a little softer especially on offense with the likes of P-Rich, Lockett, Graham, Prosise, Joeckel. Too much emphasis on speed rather than bigger & stronger.

    Pete's system works best when you dominate the line of scrimmage, Force your agenda and then use your playmakers when the opponents will is sapped. Screaming 12's only intimidate when the team intimidates as well. It's symbiotic.

    So as much as I think the players need a reboot from the coaching side of things, Pete and John need to get back to "Bigger, Faster, Stronger, Louder"
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  • adeltaY wrote:There's no conspiracy, Pete appears to be doubling down and right now that disappoints me. I wanted to see a creative offense with motions, misdirection, innovative play designs to make it easier for Russ and our other offensive players to get open and make plays.

    We will definitely be seeing that kind of offense at least four times a year...


    Pete is the type that doesn't believe in innovation. Like Holmgren (ironically), he believes in playing "our brand of football" because simplicity unburdens players and lets them play better. Doesn't matter what they play if they can't stop you anyway. Execution trumps innovation and all that.

    I'm more open to that idea on defense than I am on offense. But there is talk out there that Kris Richard diversified the defense too much over the last few years, got it away from simplicity that empowers players, and that it needs to get back to its 2013-2014 roots.

    As for the offense...well, it was so bungled by Cable and failure to secure a solid RB that it's hard to judge much of anything.
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