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Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?

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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:13 pm
  • Some fans crack me up. When Kris Richards got called for a potential coaching job, there were people here who had the actual nerve to say this was a Rooney Rule thing. As if he's somehow done a terrible job. Meanwhile, we're hiring Schotty, who gets repeated chances but has been a perennial failure. And Ken Norton, who by all accounts left the Raiders defense WORSE off than better. Seems like a good guy

    I'm neither excited or depressed about our recent hires. They may turn out great, Pete may turn out to be a genius on this. But no objective person can look at this and say that these are absolutely good hires. I suppose they'll have to prove themselves and I for one, hope they do. I would hate to waste away this young talent

    I will say though, I wish Kris Richards the best. Unlike the over the top criticism, I do genuinely feel he did a good job. I give him a B+. He dealt with a lot of adversity and handled it well. I have no idea why we're so convinced Norton or Schotty will be the guy, but I'll be right there cheering anyway
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:19 pm
  • Scorpion05 wrote:Some fans crack me up. When Kris Richards got called for a potential coaching job, there were people here who had the actual nerve to say this was a Rooney Rule thing. As if he's somehow done a terrible job. Meanwhile, we're hiring Schotty, who gets repeated chances but has been a perennial failure. And Ken Norton, who by all accounts left the Raiders defense WORSE off than better. Seems like a good guy

    I'm neither excited or depressed about our recent hires. They may turn out great, Pete may turn out to be a genius on this. But no objective person can look at this and say that these are absolutely good hires. I suppose they'll have to prove themselves and I for one, hope they do. I would hate to waste away this young talent

    I will say though, I wish Kris Richards the best. Unlike the over the top criticism, I do genuinely feel he did a good job. I give him a B+. He dealt with a lot of adversity and handled it well. I have no idea why we're so convinced Norton or Schotty will be the guy, but I'll be right there cheering anyway


    Is there ever an absolutely good hire in the NFL?
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:46 pm
  • THE TABS wrote:Injuries aside, we let a lot of mediocre quarterbacks get the best of us in recent years, which NEVER happened under Dan Quinn.


    Austin Davis in 2014.

    Also, the point about Bucky isn't really fair. If a guy has a bad take, that invalidates his later takes? None of us on this board should have any credibility, we've all been wrong at least once.

    Good hire from motivational standpoint. Results outside of our system have been pretty bad. Oakland noticeably improved under Pagano and it was basically an instant improvement. Maybe that was because Davis forced Del Rio to cede some control over the defense in addition to firing Norton. It's difficult to know.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:52 pm
  • I hope they can find a way to keep Richard on the staff in some capacity. JMO.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:05 pm
  • hawknation2018 wrote:I hope they can find a way to keep Richard on the staff in some capacity. JMO.


    People are rarely open to a demotion after a promotion in the same place, much harder to have the respect of the people your working with when they say your not good enough to cook but we still want you as the bus boy.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:08 pm
  • hawknation2018 wrote:I hope they can find a way to keep Richard on the staff in some capacity. JMO.


    My guess is, Richard ends up as a DB or other coach (DC?) with the Patriots, who will need to shuffle coaches soon. Or possibly DC with Tennessee or Indy. Maybe an AHC/DB gig in one of these locations. Maybe we could hang on to him as AHC/DB, but I doubt it.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:08 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:
    hawknation2018 wrote:I hope they can find a way to keep Richard on the staff in some capacity. JMO.


    People are rarely open to a demotion after a promotion in the same place, much harder to have the respect of the people your working with when they say your not good enough to cook but we still want you as the bus boy.


    If he can put ego aside to remain with this team, then he deserves all the credit in the world.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:11 pm

Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:19 pm
  • Writer for Webzone, enough said.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:27 pm
  • WmHBonney wrote:
    LolaRox wrote:Sigh... really? This is a trade down. I know many of you like him, but his defenses were not good in Oakland and certainly not better than Seattle's.

    I'm disappointed that Kris may be fired for a dude coming from an awful defense.


    Oakland has nowhere near the amount of defensive talent that the 'Hawks have.


    true about Raider lacking our level of talent on D, but that didn't change the fact that Raider D performed better after he was fired.

    I think Norton might be a players' coach, someone players can identify with and be motivated. Norton may not be the best at XO, game planning, or out smarting opposing OCs.

    In our case, Pete might want to take over XO, game planning, so Norton may be Pete's perfect sidekick.

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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:55 pm
  • From Gus to Quinn to Richard One thing is true. This is Pete’s D. Ken is here to motivate and hold players accountable. That’s it! It’s Pete’s D plain and simple!
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:00 pm
  • Hawkscanner wrote:WOW! Now THIS is a bit of a surprise for me! (but a pleasant one for my part). I know that people are going to be down on him due to his experiences in Oakland ... but I for one was not happy when Norton left. I LOVE the attitude -- the FIRE that this guy brings. He was a real asset when he was here IMO.

    I know that some may blow this off ... but for me, a lot of success whether we're talking about coaching staffs ... or the players themselves ... depends upon chemistry. Is there a good chemistry that exists? Do coaches and players see eye to eye? Do they have the same (or similar) philosophies? Do they communicate well? Are they a cohesive group?

    As I look at the cast of characters that Pete Carroll has now assembled ... I can honestly say I think so. Norton and Carroll (I think) really do see eye to eye (defense philosophy wise) -- much moreso that Carroll and Richard did. Norton strikes me as a guy who always looks to ATTACK the opponent ... rather than waiting for the opponent to come to him. He dictates to the offense rather than the other way around (which is kind of what I felt often was the case with Richard). I felt Richard was much more reactive ... whereas I see Norton being much more instinctive and predator-like -- taking it to the offense. That attack mode is MUCH more Pete Carroll.

    I DO also feel that the players also like and respect Ken Norton a lot -- that is a major plus.

    So, my preliminary gut reaction to this hire -- I like it. I like it a lot. We'll see if I still like it as much come next December, but for right now, I'm giving this one a thumbs up! Great move IMO. :2thumbs:


    Yep, precisely how I feel about him...Thank you for saving the keystrokes. :2thumbs:
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:13 pm
  • Norton is just a winner. Raiders hot g
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:24 pm
  • I like this move. I think Richard was a good defensive coach, but I think the core defense from the Superbowl didn't really view him as the authority figure the position demands. Richard seemed like he was your buddy that was also your boss, and sometimes the defense put too much credence in their own ability to read the offense and "audible" before the snap. I don't have any hard data to back this up other than guys seemed to tackle less effectively and miss assignments more under Richard. Norton I think doesn't add anything much to scheme or strategy, but rather brings back the authority and discipline to hold each position accountable to their primary task.

    Having said that, Richard did deal with a ton of core injuries this year, so if he would have been retained as DC, I would have been ok with that.

    I like solari, but feel we went sideways with schotty.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:45 pm
  • I really like having Ken Norton Jr back. For one, you are snatching him up out from under the 49ers. I'm sure it shows the players on this team his commitment to them by opting out of his 10 day old contract to be here again.

    I was thinking about this the other day and to me it seemed like Kris was his dbs choice for dc. With Sherm, Earl, and Kam being the vocal leaders on the defense it only made sense. I was thinking that the emergence of Bobby being the NEW voice of this defense and with Ken being his choice for DC (being former position coach) maybe they are looking to build around him vs the LoB.

    I don't think that Pete has a need to appease the LoB anymore given the injuries and emergence of their replacements. I think that Ken has the presence to combat the divas and now we have a path forward if they don't fall in line.

    I just could never see Sherm yelling at Ken like he did Kris.
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Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:58 pm
  • This is probably a long shot, but it’s not entirely impossible that Pete will do on defense what he did at USC on offense in 2005: co-coordinators. ‘05 gave us Sarkiffian, maybe 2018 will give rise to Norchard (Richton?).

    Doubtful, but who knows.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:35 pm

Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:44 pm
  • I'm not sure how I feel about this. I know for certain that Norton will be more vocal, but does that mean he will be a better coordinator? Not sure. For all of his short comings Richard had, he was a good d-coordinator that dealt with a number of key injuries this season.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:52 pm
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:31 pm
  • It never made sense to have a defensive backs coach be the defensive coordinator... I would prefer a DLINE specialist like Quinn, but i'll take a LBs coach like Gus.

    He also shares Gus' passion, age, and carries more respect amongst the players than Richard.

    Ultimately it's Pete's defense so you're looking to add someone who can add value to one of the other two position groups.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:20 am
  • I see Norton Jr. as a step down from K. Richard as a DC.

    As a tough guy who commands respect, Norton excels. plus he's a hell of a
    motivator though Richard was no slouch in that area.

    I think we're giving up critical thinking which may be at the heart of the issue.
    Pete wants it done his way, no hesitation, no argument, no critical thinking.
    That's Norton.

    Kris Richard MAY be a head coach someday. I doubt that will happen for Norton.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:26 am
  • adeltaY wrote:
    THE TABS wrote:Injuries aside, we let a lot of mediocre quarterbacks get the best of us in recent years, which NEVER happened under Dan Quinn.


    Austin Davis in 2014.


    So you're saying Brian Schottenheimer is a better OC than Dan Quinn DC?
    Especially given the level of talent each had at their disposal...
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:05 am
  • Sox-n-Hawks wrote:Out of morbid curiosity, I would love to see what this team would look like if they were built to run and control the clock and crush people on the defensive front.


    Simple, just pop in the tape of the 2013 Seahawks.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:07 am
  • I LOVE this hire.

    The D is going to have a fire lit under them in a big way. We've got SO much talent in the front, middle and back of this defense, if we can get to near 100% out of all that talent, having a top 3 defense again is absolutely possible.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:09 am
  • adeltaY wrote:
    THE TABS wrote:Injuries aside, we let a lot of mediocre quarterbacks get the best of us in recent years, which NEVER happened under Dan Quinn.


    Austin Davis in 2014.

    <snip>


    Case Keenum in 2016.
    http://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/ ... -return-la

    Keenum has looked pretty good lately though. He is, somehow, still playing.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:21 am
  • I Don't understand this move at all. The Raiders defense improved quite a bit after this guy was fired. Is this some kind of move on Pete's part to salvage a locker room that he is losing? Or is he going to be calling the defense, while having Norton as the figurehead/hammer of the team? Aside from Solari these moves do not inspire any kind of confidence, in fact I'm worried that we may have downgraded our staff if that was even possible. I'm praying that Schottenheimer reports were premature.

    Honestly I don't want Pete to have anything to do with the offense.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:29 am
  • Crizilla wrote:
    KitsapGuy wrote:


    Bucky Brooks rated Andy Dalton higher than Russell Wilson few seasons ago. Move on.


    So did ever team in the NFL
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:40 am
  • People love Quinn but remember Quinn got our defense healthy and in there prime he also benefited from our QB getting paid peanuts allowing us to have incredible depth and a OL that could run the ball. Not saying that Quinn isnt good but lets not forget we blew a big lead in the SB under him and I doubt we look that much better under him last year.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:25 am
  • Ace_Rimmer wrote:
    LolaRox wrote:Sigh... really? This is a trade down. I know many of you like him, but his defenses were not good in Oakland and certainly not better than Seattle's.

    I'm disappointed that Kris may be fired for a dude coming from an awful defense. Unless this is about something internal and not x's & o's or play calling then I don't get this move.


    This may be about getting the D players back in line. They tuned our Richard, and Ken will definitely command their respect and make these guys toe the line.


    Probably more than most think. Imagine Sherman trying to yell at Norton
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:42 am
  • Won't say if Norton a good or bad hire as DC, cause I don't have enough insight to have a valid opinion.

    I will warn that fans have to be careful about superimposing their perception of a former good player and overlay that on coaching. One doesn't automatically mean the other is true, but we often do it since we're fans.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:51 am
  • I'm puzzled that people think Norton is going to run his defense here...that's not going to be the case. He will be running Pete Carroll's defense here. Just like Bradley, Quinn, and Richard have done. The names may have changed but this is Pete Carroll's defense and he's the main DC for the Seahawks.
    Last edited by hawkfan68 on Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:54 am
  • The team needed massive changes, it has happened. I figured plenty of people wouldn't like the hire, or the other hires. But give them a chance, and let's roll. Believe it or not, it doesn't matter what we as fans think, they are doing what they feel is best for the team. And they know a lot more than any fan out there about football.
    Last edited by SoulfishHawk on Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:01 am
  • Calm down people... I don't think Richard is going anywhere, but the DC title has to be offered to Ken Norton Jr in order for him to opt out of his contract in San Francisco. My gut feeling is that PC is trying to get the coaching staff back together that took us to the Super Bowl... Bradley, Norton Jr. and Richard... possibly Manuel. If it means coaches have to swap titles, even though they're still going to be doing what they normally do... so be it.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:03 am
  • All people did, including myself, was whine and moan about Cable, Bevell etc. Now they are gone, have been replaced, and people still are whining and moaning. Good god, relax and see how it plays out.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:27 am
  • This just means Pete is taking back control of the Defense. Which is fine by me.

    Some reports out of Oakland said Norton was pretty handicapped by Del Rio as a Defensive Coordinator and had to run what Del Rio told him to. He'll be in the same situation here is Seattle with Pete, but I trust Pete's Defensive gameplanning a whole lot more. He could make Norton look good. Norton can be the motivator for the Defense to do what Pete needs them to do.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:59 am
  • chris98251 wrote:Writer for Webzone, enough said.


    Just for the record with no comment on his ability...

    ...the Webzone writer is correct. The 49ers could have blocked the move but did not. You can't block a coordinator becoming a HC, but you can block all other coaches.

    Shanahan discussed it. Kenny told Shahahan he had an opportunity to be a DC again and Shanahan wasn't going to tell him he couldn't.

    I don't think it has anything to do with ability. He jusrt wasn't going to stand in his way. I for one am bummed because I wanted to see Kenny mentor Reuben Foster.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:01 am
  • Ken just wanted to coach for a real team. :lol:
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:02 am
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Ken just wanted to coach for a real team. :lol:


    LOL. ha. ha.

    Nah, I was excited to see Kenny back with the Niners. All well.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:15 am
  • Marvin49 wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Writer for Webzone, enough said.


    Just for the record with no comment on his ability...

    ...the Webzone writer is correct. The 49ers could have blocked the move but did not. You can't block a coordinator becoming a HC, but you can block all other coaches.

    Shanahan discussed it. Kenny told Shahahan he had an opportunity to be a DC again and Shanahan wasn't going to tell him he couldn't.

    I don't think it has anything to do with ability. He jusrt wasn't going to stand in his way. I for one am bummed because I wanted to see Kenny mentor Reuben Foster.

    I heard there was a clause in Norton’s SF contract that said he could leave if he was offered the Seattle DC spot.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:30 am
  • Ken Norton Jr. did indeed work within the frame work of Jack Del Rio defensive preferences and scheme. That was well published. So ..... Raider fans didn't get a true picture of what a Ken Norton Jr. variation of Pete Carroll's scheme looks like. They got robbed.

    Given Pete's background with the defensive backs, I think a defensive coordinator with either a lineman or linebacker background imparts better coaching balance to the defensive. I have no eggs to throw at Kris Richard. But, I'm more confident with complimentary backgrounds from head coach and defensive coordinator.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:25 am
  • I know this is a thread about Norton, but the lack of info on Richard is puzzling
    Was he fired, let go, reassigned, put in witness protection...?
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:28 am
  • Marvin49 wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Writer for Webzone, enough said.


    Just for the record with no comment on his ability...

    ...the Webzone writer is correct. The 49ers could have blocked the move but did not. You can't block a coordinator becoming a HC, but you can block all other coaches.

    Shanahan discussed it. Kenny told Shahahan he had an opportunity to be a DC again and Shanahan wasn't going to tell him he couldn't.

    I don't think it has anything to do with ability. He jusrt wasn't going to stand in his way. I for one am bummed because I wanted to see Kenny mentor Reuben Foster.


    Kyle doesn't seem like a jerk. Well that's nice.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:08 pm
  • Surely Norton is back to keep the Defense from imploding? Ever since he departed there's been way too many sideline confrontations and ego driven manic episodes for this veteran team. Norton played under some of the greatest and most successful coaches in history so he must know a thing or two about working with a collection of Alpha dogs?

    It's not like Pete will be carrying the defensive planning load himself. The team has an assistant for every assistant to make this work like it did beautifully from 2012-2015. If Norton's primary task is to motivate and Pete's is to plan then I say go for it.

    I'm very happy to be positive about the new hires and if we get some luck with injuries next season the NFC West is going to be the battleground that sets us up to win another championship.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:18 pm
  • oldhawkfan wrote:I know this is a thread about Norton, but the lack of info on Richard is puzzling
    Was he fired, let go, reassigned, put in witness protection...?


    I don't think Pete wants to have to fire him. If he doesn't find another job, I suspect they may bring him back at a reduced position of some type myself.
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    Seymour
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:29 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    oldhawkfan wrote:I know this is a thread about Norton, but the lack of info on Richard is puzzling
    Was he fired, let go, reassigned, put in witness protection...?


    I don't think Pete wants to have to fire him. If he doesn't find another job, I suspect they may bring him back at a reduced position of some type myself.


    Why would he want to fire the best secondary coach in NFL history?
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:36 pm
  • hawknation2018 wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    oldhawkfan wrote:I know this is a thread about Norton, but the lack of info on Richard is puzzling
    Was he fired, let go, reassigned, put in witness protection...?


    I don't think Pete wants to have to fire him. If he doesn't find another job, I suspect they may bring him back at a reduced position of some type myself.


    Why would he want to fire the best secondary coach in NFL history?


    Very debatable and bold statement (considering who he was given)....some other day. And I did not ever indicate they should fire Richard.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:45 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    hawknation2018 wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    oldhawkfan wrote:I know this is a thread about Norton, but the lack of info on Richard is puzzling
    Was he fired, let go, reassigned, put in witness protection...?


    I don't think Pete wants to have to fire him. If he doesn't find another job, I suspect they may bring him back at a reduced position of some type myself.


    Why would he want to fire the best secondary coach in NFL history?


    Very debatable and bold statement (considering who he was given)....some other day. And I did not ever indicate they should fire Richard.


    The point is, Richard has been very successful with this team. So why would Pete want to fire him?
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:51 pm
  • I wonder if they might be thinking co-DCs? Or making KR AC/DB coach?

    They were toying with some 4-2-5 concepts that provide some autonomy for different position groups last season, so this is not the craziest thing you will read on the interwebs today.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:58 pm
  • Own The West wrote:I wonder if they might be thinking co-DCs? Or making KR AC/DB coach?

    They were toying with some 4-2-5 concepts that provide some autonomy for different position groups last season, so this is not the craziest thing you will read on the interwebs today.


    Absolutely possible.

    I don’t think Richard would stick around, though. Real world demotions would cause all sorts of problems I’d imagine. The players, potentially, wouldn’t take him as seriously.

    Be great if we could keep him on as a DB coach, though. He excels at it and was far from a bad DC.
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Re: Ken Norton Jr. as DC after all?
Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:15 pm
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