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Benoit on the Double Edged Sword that is Russell Wilson

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  • JimmyG wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:
    Seymour wrote:He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

    That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

    Have you seen Stafford's line this year? Football Outsiders has the Lions ranked as #32 overall in pass blocking (Seattle is 30th). And they are basically last place across the board in their various run-blocking metrics. Like Wilson, Stafford is accounting for a giant percentage of his teams' offensive output this year.


    Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

    You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):
    Image



    If you add in hits and hurries you will find we are close to last
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  • austinslater25 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    rossob wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    I would argue it's closer to 50/50. I notice a LOT of plays where Wilson takes off for absolutely no reason.

    That's why Duane Brown's epic few-pressures-allowed performance for us thus far hasn't suddenly improved the offense like people were expecting. Call it height, call it receivers not getting loose, call it he just likes being outside the pocket, but the OL was never the primary driver of our problems.

    That said, Stafford will never sniff a Super Bowl.

    I think that the Oline Russell needs is just one which doesn't let guys get to him in a second and doesn't collapse on all sides. Most of the time Wilson is able to get out of it if just some part collapses and he does have enough time to get away. Imo having a good pass blocking line would be a complete waste on Russell as long as he's able to run around the way he still does.
    Good run blocking would be nice though.


    Very few route trees require more than 3 seconds to run. The Packers' WR's train to begin their scramble drill 2.8 seconds after the snap. That means that an offensive line's job is done after about 3 seconds, after which the fault is no longer on them.

    If you watch Seattle's pass protection over the years armed with that piece of knowledge, you'd be surprised how often Seattle's line actually gets the job done. No, they can't provide Wilson with 7 seconds like Romo's line did. But if the OC, WRs, and QB were doing their job, they wouldn't have to.

    The plays where Seattle's line gets immediately punctured are much lesser in quantity. They happen twice or thrice a game. I think the games where they happened the most were against the Calais Campbell Cardinals, and admittedly, those games were nightmares of instant slicing penetration.


    We watch a different game. Ifedi by himself allows more than 2 instant pressure whiffs alone. Also it's going to take time for Wilson to get used to brown protecting him. He has been conditioned to expect pressure early and often so in time I expect him to get a little more comfortable and more patient. Also I could be wrong but I think the offense has gotten better since his arrival? They just gave the #1 defense in the league their worst defensive performance.

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  • Anthony! wrote: One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

    Wilson has the best numbers of his career and yet this is easily the worst season (results-wise) of his tenure here. We are 8-5 and there's a real shot we might not even make the playoffs. The offense is extremely inconsistent. This insistence that the stagnated offense drive is all Bevell's fault and the constant minimizing of Wilson's role in it is getting old. He holds his share fair of the blame for that, and many outside analysts have pointed this out.
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  • Drew Magary at Deadspin has an eloquent take-down of this article.

    Deadspin Article
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  • JimmyG wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:
    Seymour wrote:He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

    That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

    Have you seen Stafford's line this year? Football Outsiders has the Lions ranked as #32 overall in pass blocking (Seattle is 30th). And they are basically last place across the board in their various run-blocking metrics. Like Wilson, Stafford is accounting for a giant percentage of his teams' offensive output this year.


    Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

    You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):
    Image

    Anyway, I'm not sure what the past few years has to do with anything. People keep saying "anyone else would be futile behind this line", but that's just not true. I am with MontanaHawk, sometimes the long-developing plays and scramble drills are the result of Wilson being Wilson. It's not Bevell, it's not the OC, it's Wilson.


    Just as a point, I wouldn't use some form of sack rate to prove something about a guy who's the best in the league at escaping them. Maybe pressure rate or something.
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  • That was pretty funny. Having an opinion makes it wrong. Got it.
    Come on man, I am a massive Russ fan, but you can't just throw it up for grabs in to either double coverage or when I guy is clearly covered. He had an off game, it's rare, but he is human. I just would prefer they check down once in awhile and stop throwing long bombs so often. Unless the guy is open like on the 2 touchdowns later in the game. And I call it a hero ball because that's exactly what I heard Wyman call it. And I must be in the twilight zone, because I've never been accused of "getting on Russ"
    EVER :lol:
    In fact, more accused of being WAY too much of a Russ apologist. Take a pill Anthony, you are no bigger of a Hawks or Russ fan than I am. :roll:
    Last edited by SoulfishHawk on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:37 am, edited 4 times in total.
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  • Sgt Largent wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:Have you seen Stafford's line this year? Football Outsiders has the Lions ranked as #32 overall in pass blocking (Seattle is 30th). And they are basically last place across the board in their various run-blocking metrics. Like Wilson, Stafford is accounting for a giant percentage of his teams' offensive output this year.


    Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

    You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):
    Image

    Anyway, I'm not sure what the past few years has to do with anything. People keep saying "anyone else would be futile behind this line", but that's just not true. I am with MontanaHawk, sometimes the long-developing plays and scramble drills are the result of Wilson being Wilson. It's not Bevell, it's not the OC, it's Wilson.


    Just as a point, I wouldn't use some form of sack rate to prove something about a guy who's the best in the league at escaping them. Maybe pressure rate or something.


    Then we'd have to talk about the pressures he creates himself. :stirthepot: :pukeface: :yawn:
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  • Sgt Largent wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:Have you seen Stafford's line this year? Football Outsiders has the Lions ranked as #32 overall in pass blocking (Seattle is 30th). And they are basically last place across the board in their various run-blocking metrics. Like Wilson, Stafford is accounting for a giant percentage of his teams' offensive output this year.


    Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

    You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):
    Image

    Anyway, I'm not sure what the past few years has to do with anything. People keep saying "anyone else would be futile behind this line", but that's just not true. I am with MontanaHawk, sometimes the long-developing plays and scramble drills are the result of Wilson being Wilson. It's not Bevell, it's not the OC, it's Wilson.


    Just as a point, I wouldn't use some form of sack rate to prove something about a guy who's the best in the league at escaping them. Maybe pressure rate or something.



    The question is and has been answered by numerous experts, that any other QB but Wilson would have twice as many sacks behind this oline in this offense. Rw is and has always been amongst the most hit, pressured and hurried QBs in the league. A lot of those hurries turn into sacks with any other QB.
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  • JimmyG wrote:
    Anthony! wrote: One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

    Wilson has the best numbers of his career and yet this is easily the worst season (results-wise) of his tenure here. We are 8-5 and there's a real shot we might not even make the playoffs. The offense is extremely inconsistent. This insistence that the stagnated offense drive is all Bevell's fault and the constant minimizing of Wilson's role in it is getting old. He holds his share fair of the blame for that, and many outside analysts have pointed this out.

    You are correct. It is Wilson's fault that he can't figure out how to block four men, run a post pattern, run a wheel route, carry the ball, throw the ball, catch the ball, make 11 guys miss twice each, call the plays, and pop the pop corn all at the same time. The lazy bum hardly ever makes a tackle and his field goal kicking percentage is also pretty low.
    Seriously I really really hope that Wilson is traded after this season so fans like your self can finally be happy.
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  • He's one of the best in the league, plenty of people know that. I spend most of my time sticking up for the guy and/or pointing out how incredible he is. They are a 4-12 team w/out him. But it IS ok to point out when he has an off game. Shoot, Lord Brady played horrific on Monday, happens to the best. Doesn't mean he's not incredible, he just had an off game for HIS STANDARDS.
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  • JimmyG wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:
    Seymour wrote:He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

    That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

    Have you seen Stafford's line this year? Football Outsiders has the Lions ranked as #32 overall in pass blocking (Seattle is 30th). And they are basically last place across the board in their various run-blocking metrics. Like Wilson, Stafford is accounting for a giant percentage of his teams' offensive output this year.


    Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

    You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):


    Anyway, I'm not sure what the past few years has to do with anything. People keep saying "anyone else would be futile behind this line", but that's just not true. I am with MontanaHawk, sometimes the long-developing plays and scramble drills are the result of Wilson being Wilson. It's not Bevell, it's not the OC, it's Wilson.


    Ask David Carr what can happen.

    It obviously has an effect on the QB over time. You can see signs of this with Wilson, but overall I think he's come through it OK considering the circumstances he's been put in with Cable and his "budget body guards".
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  • brimsalabim wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:
    Anthony! wrote: One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

    Wilson has the best numbers of his career and yet this is easily the worst season (results-wise) of his tenure here. We are 8-5 and there's a real shot we might not even make the playoffs. The offense is extremely inconsistent. This insistence that the stagnated offense drive is all Bevell's fault and the constant minimizing of Wilson's role in it is getting old. He holds his share fair of the blame for that, and many outside analysts have pointed this out.

    You are correct. It is Wilson's fault that he can't figure out how to block four men, run a post pattern, run a wheel route, carry the ball, throw the ball, catch the ball, make 11 guys miss twice each, call the plays, and pop the pop corn all at the same time. The lazy bum hardly ever makes a tackle and his field goal kicking percentage is also pretty low.
    Seriously I really really hope that Wilson is traded after this season so fans like your self can finally be happy.


    Oh, stop overreacting. Nobody said he's perfect. They just said Wilson shares part of the blame.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Sgt Largent wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

    You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):
    Image

    Anyway, I'm not sure what the past few years has to do with anything. People keep saying "anyone else would be futile behind this line", but that's just not true. I am with MontanaHawk, sometimes the long-developing plays and scramble drills are the result of Wilson being Wilson. It's not Bevell, it's not the OC, it's Wilson.


    Just as a point, I wouldn't use some form of sack rate to prove something about a guy who's the best in the league at escaping them. Maybe pressure rate or something.


    Then we'd have to talk about the pressures he creates himself. :stirthepot: :pukeface: :yawn:


    Sounds fair. What else would be fair would be to include Willies rushing stats, but invariably, Russ is only compared to other QB's in passing stats, especially from naysayer types (the Priscos of the world). The reason? Because very few to none play QB the way Russ does and it hurts their sensibilities.

    I'm still waiting for the proof that rushing yards/TDs somehow count for less than passing yds when derived from a QB. You are judging a QB, not a PB (Passerback).

    None of the above refers to your opinions specifically Montana (unless the shoe fits), just thought it would be a good place to put my thoughts on it.
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  • lets put an end to this

    83% of total offensive yards #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
    97% of total offensive TDs #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
    no run game
    no #1 wr
    questionable oline
    questionable play calling

    No Qb is doing more with less. enough said
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  • And who is saying that he hasn't done more with less? Anyone with eyes can see he has done more w/less. Relax and breathe man. It's gonna' be ok.
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  • Anthony! wrote:
    The question is and has been answered by numerous experts, that any other QB but Wilson would have twice as many sacks behind this oline in this offense. A lot of those hurries turn into sacks with any other QB.


    What experts?

    Where is the statistical basis for this claim?

    Would Aaron Rodgers have taken more sacks? Case Keenum? Dak Prescott? Ben Rothlisberger? (name another QB who is good at avoiding pressure and making plays out of the pocket)

    Wilson is a great QB. He's not the only one under pressure making plays
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  • Sgt Largent wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Sgt Largent wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):
    Image

    Anyway, I'm not sure what the past few years has to do with anything. People keep saying "anyone else would be futile behind this line", but that's just not true. I am with MontanaHawk, sometimes the long-developing plays and scramble drills are the result of Wilson being Wilson. It's not Bevell, it's not the OC, it's Wilson.


    Just as a point, I wouldn't use some form of sack rate to prove something about a guy who's the best in the league at escaping them. Maybe pressure rate or something.


    Then we'd have to talk about the pressures he creates himself. :stirthepot: :pukeface: :yawn:


    Sounds fair. What else would be fair would be to include Willies rushing stats, but invariably, Russ is only compared to other QB's in passing stats, especially from naysayer types (the Priscos of the world). The reason? Because very few to none play QB the way Russ does and it hurts their sensibilities.

    I'm still waiting for the proof that rushing yards/TDs somehow count for less than passing yds when derived from a QB. You are judging a QB, not a PB (Passerback).

    None of the above refers to your opinions specifically Montana (unless the shoe fits), just thought it would be a good place to put my thoughts on it.


    There are a couple good reasons why it's not ideal for Wilson to play the way he does.

    One is that rushing exposes Wilson to injury. Now Wilson is built like a muscle hamster, can withstand a lot of tackles, and knows how and when to slide, so if any QB can get away with his running, it's Wilson. But that doesn't change the fact that it only takes one dirty hit from an Aqib Talib or a Vontaze Burfict (or, apropos, a Ndamukong Suh) to cause serious injury.

    Second has to do with his scrambling BEHIND the line. Someone alluded earlier in this thread to the fact that Wilson might well be running for no reason because he knows it wears down the DL and gives him more opportunities for big plays in the 4th quarter. I've been thinking this for a while and it's probably true. BUT, Wilson's scrambling also carries a downside: it splits the field in half for him. Once he's rolled out to his left, he's only got the left side of the field to throw to. He'd be dumb to try a throw all the way across to the right, even if Jimmy Graham is wide open out there. That's why all these calls for "MOAR ROLLOUTZ!!!!11!1!" are actually likely to fall on deaf ears. Rollouts are actually lower percentage plays than some.

    So while Wilson is a great QB, I don't think he's hit his ceiling - that would take a better OC than 6-out-of-10 Bevell - and I think it's fair to say that his play style comes with legitimate tradeoffs.
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  • Now, with all my "sticking up for the little guy" talk, I do think Wilson could improve his consistency.

    1) He occasionally stays on the back foot when he doesn't have to (High balls)
    2) He occasionally puts too much under the ball (on deep passes) causing some underthrows (closely related to 1 above).
    3) His natural escape mechanism (retreating backwards) makes for a dead spot (in time) for finding guys that may come open during his escape routine, causing us to wonder why he threw it to so late, he was clearly open earlier.
    4) ...and a myriad more things I could type about (ANY) QB.
    5) I'd love to see him steal a page from Brees checkdown book, he could get better at that.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:...
    One is that rushing exposes Wilson to injury. Now Wilson is built like a muscle hamster, can withstand a lot of tackles, and knows how and when to slide, so if any QB can get away with his running, it's Wilson. But that doesn't change the fact that it only takes one dirty hit from an Aqib Talib or a Vontaze Burfict (or, apropos, a Ndamukong Suh) to cause serious injury...


    Decent points Montana, but I picked this one out because it's wagging the dog.

    "Well, My Opal is better than your Ferrari because you could blow your engine at any moment." Your argument above is exactly what the naysayers use to discredit Wilsons contribution with his legs. Let's take it at face value and say it is detrimental to team success in the long run (some future injury). Those yards still count. One of the biggest "run around" guys ever holds the NFL record for most consecutive starts.

    We sit here and watch QBs get smoked in the pocket every week. Those hits are almost ALWAYS nastier than the hits Russ takes beyond the line of scrimmage due to the way he does it.
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  • Sgt Largent wrote:Now, with all my "sticking up for the little guy" talk, I do think Wilson could improve his consistency.

    1) He occasionally stays on the back foot when he doesn't have to (High balls)
    2) He occasionally puts too much under the ball (on deep passes) causing some underthrows (closely related to 1 above).
    3) His natural escape mechanism (retreating backwards) makes for a dead spot (in time) for finding guys that may come open during his escape routine, causing us to wonder why he threw it to so late, he was clearly open earlier.
    4) ...and a myriad more things I could type about (ANY) QB.
    5) I'd love to see him steal a page from Brees checkdown book, he could get better at that.


    I chalk 5 up to Bevell not providing it.
    Russell has some stats that aren't Superb? Ow! Love his balls anyways!

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  • Anthony! wrote:lets put an end to this

    83% of total offensive yards #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
    97% of total offensive TDs #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
    no run game
    no #1 wr
    questionable oline
    questionable play calling

    No Qb is doing more with less. enough said


    Did you say more Brotato chip?

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  • Yeah, he gets Bevellriffic way too often w/the play calling.
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  • Anthony! wrote:
    IrishNW wrote:
    original poster wrote:
    Seymour wrote:He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

    That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.


    Very good point.

    I honesty can't think of a single QB that could perform as good, or better, than Wilson behind the current OL (prior to them getting it together the last few weeks).


    brady, manning or rodgers would do just fine. They actually use quick throws to mitigate the pass rush and make their o-line look better.

    A double edged sword is a perfect description of what RW is right now. I think Kurt Warner once said that he hopes Wilson learns to not make it so hard on himself.

    My only question is, will Wilson be-able to correct this problem? or do we need a guru offensive coordinator that can help mitigate this. I personally and I think alot of people want to see a change at coordinator. Maybe Bevel hasn't actually been that bad (personally i think he sucks) but its time for some new blood.


    :pukeface: no they would not because you are assuming that our OC would let them continue the quick passing, If you paid attention to the last game we started out with quick passing and for some reason, our OC went away from it, As to the rest your opinion which factually is wrong but your opinion


    you would argue the sky isn't blue.

    if my opinion is factually wrong then show me the facts that prove that....oh wait
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  • Sgt Largent wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:...
    One is that rushing exposes Wilson to injury. Now Wilson is built like a muscle hamster, can withstand a lot of tackles, and knows how and when to slide, so if any QB can get away with his running, it's Wilson. But that doesn't change the fact that it only takes one dirty hit from an Aqib Talib or a Vontaze Burfict (or, apropos, a Ndamukong Suh) to cause serious injury...


    Decent points Montana, but I picked this one out because it's wagging the dog.

    "Well, My Opal is better than your Ferrari because you could blow your engine at any moment." Your argument above is exactly what the naysayers use to discredit Wilsons contribution with his legs. Let's take it at face value and say it is detrimental to team success in the long run (some future injury). Those yards still count. One of the biggest "run around" guys ever holds the NFL record for most consecutive starts.

    We sit here and watch QBs get smoked in the pocket every week. Those hits are almost ALWAYS nastier than the hits Russ takes beyond the line of scrimmage due to the way he does it.


    Exactly. He is getting OUT of harms way. Who is the last man standing from class of 2012??

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  • And look how much the Skins gave up for RGKnee/RG3-13, wow.
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  • Anthony! wrote:lets put an end to this

    83% of total offensive yards #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
    97% of total offensive TDs #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
    no run game
    no #1 wr
    questionable oline
    questionable play calling

    No Qb is doing more with less. enough said

    Okay, I'll try.

    Wilson accounts for 85.2% of his team's offensive yardage output. Stafford accounts for 84.2% of his team's offensive yardage output.

    Wilson has bad pass blocking (#16 ranked by Football Outsiders). Stafford has worse pass blocking (#21 by FO).

    Wilson's offensive line ranks #14 in power running, and #30 in FO "Stuffed Rank". Stafford's offensive line ranks #32 in power running and #32 in stuffed rank.

    Lions not named "Stafford" have rushed for 902 yards. Collectively, they average 3.3 yards per carry. Seahawks not named "Wilson" have rushed for 892 yards. Collectively, they average 3.4 yards per carry.

    The Seahawks have 8 wins. The score 24.2 points per game (11th) and give up 19.4 points per game (8th). The Lions have 7 wins. They score 26.0 points per game (5th) and give up 25.3 poinst per game (28th).

    Stafford has a 97.9 rating. He has thrown 23 TD and has 9 INT. Wilson has a 95.5 rating. He has thrown 29 TD and has 11 INT; he has also added 3 rush TD.

    Marvin Jones is not a #1 receiver. Golden Tate is not a #1 receiver. Eric Ebron is a giant bust. I would take Seattle's receivers over Detroit's receivers. What would the TD counts look like if Stafford had Jimmy Graham (9 TD total, most in Red Zone), and Wilson had Eric Ebron (2 TD total)?

    Questionable play calling doesn't count. That is a cop-out excuse that every fan uses.

    Do I think Stafford has been as good as Wilson? No, I don't. Do I think Wilson has been in his own stratosphere? No, I don't. Do I think Wilson is the most electrifying quarterback in the league? Yes.

    Wilson has been a walking highlight reel, but I don't think his net production is as transcendent as people think. It reminds me of baseball a bit. Sort of how a flashy, 100 MPH fastball looks amazing... but sometimes a boring 92 MPH two-seamer with a little movement can yield similar results. "Sandlot football" is like a 100 MPH fastball -- it works, but it's not the only way.
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  • Love Stafford, but not in the clutch. He has a lot of 4th quarter comebacks etc. but until I see it in the playoffs, not as impressed.
    R.I.P. THE EDGAR, YOU WILL BE MISSED......
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Love Stafford, but not in the clutch. He has a lot of 4th quarter comebacks etc. but until I see it in the playoffs, not as impressed.

    I'm not in love with Stafford either, but he is having a really good year (with a relatively weak supporting cast). Just pointing out that there's "more than one way to skin a cat".
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  • He's one tough dude too
    R.I.P. THE EDGAR, YOU WILL BE MISSED......
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  • Seymour wrote:
    Anthony! wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Well, as much as I love Russ, the hero balls in to coverage need to be cut way back. No reason they can't just take what the D gives them and check down to guys who are open. I get it that they have made some great plays on long passes, but he needs to be more selective about it imo.



    First off the "hero Ball" is crap. That is not what the play is. 2nd if you listened to the announcers last game you would have heard them say numerous times there were not short or intermediate routes being run, they were all go routes, so what would you have him do when the only option he has is long routes. Now that is not always the case, however, unless you are Rw seeing what he sees, form his angle you really have no clue what is happening all you know is hey he is open short why throw long, there may be a legit reason for it. One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.


    Ummm....throw it away? :roll: Pretty much anything but throw into double coverage against top pass defenders.

    Soulfish is correct. We both stick up for Russell plenty, and that was a hero ball shot by definition right there.


    "Throw it away" If Wilson was asked he would agree the duck into double coverage was a bad choice.
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  • 907Hawk wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Anthony! wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Well, as much as I love Russ, the hero balls in to coverage need to be cut way back. No reason they can't just take what the D gives them and check down to guys who are open. I get it that they have made some great plays on long passes, but he needs to be more selective about it imo.



    First off the "hero Ball" is crap. That is not what the play is. 2nd if you listened to the announcers last game you would have heard them say numerous times there were not short or intermediate routes being run, they were all go routes, so what would you have him do when the only option he has is long routes. Now that is not always the case, however, unless you are Rw seeing what he sees, form his angle you really have no clue what is happening all you know is hey he is open short why throw long, there may be a legit reason for it. One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.


    Ummm....throw it away? :roll: Pretty much anything but throw into double coverage against top pass defenders.

    Soulfish is correct. We both stick up for Russell plenty, and that was a hero ball shot by definition right there.


    "Throw it away" If Wilson was asked he would agree the duck into double coverage was a bad choice.


    Pretty sure is asked he would say hope Doug does not fall/get pulled down and stops running on the other
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  • Anthony! wrote:
    907Hawk wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Anthony! wrote:

    First off the "hero Ball" is crap. That is not what the play is. 2nd if you listened to the announcers last game you would have heard them say numerous times there were not short or intermediate routes being run, they were all go routes, so what would you have him do when the only option he has is long routes. Now that is not always the case, however, unless you are Rw seeing what he sees, form his angle you really have no clue what is happening all you know is hey he is open short why throw long, there may be a legit reason for it. One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.


    Ummm....throw it away? :roll: Pretty much anything but throw into double coverage against top pass defenders.

    Soulfish is correct. We both stick up for Russell plenty, and that was a hero ball shot by definition right there.


    "Throw it away" If Wilson was asked he would agree the duck into double coverage was a bad choice.


    Pretty sure is asked he would say hope Doug does not fall/get pulled down and stops running on the other


    Come on Anthony! You are pretty sure Russell is going to throw his WR under the bus by saying he quit running?

    That is the most ridiculous thing I've seen you post yet. You know nothing about Wilson if that thought even crosses your mind. That is a complete insult to everyone here's intelligence.
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  • Seymour wrote:
    Anthony! wrote:
    907Hawk wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Ummm....throw it away? :roll: Pretty much anything but throw into double coverage against top pass defenders.

    Soulfish is correct. We both stick up for Russell plenty, and that was a hero ball shot by definition right there.


    "Throw it away" If Wilson was asked he would agree the duck into double coverage was a bad choice.


    Pretty sure is asked he would say hope Doug does not fall/get pulled down and stops running on the other


    Come on Anthony! You are pretty sure Russell is going to throw his WR under the bus by saying he quit running?

    That is the most ridiculous thing I've seen you post yet. You know nothing about Wilson if that thought even crosses your mind. That is a complete insult to everyone here's intelligence.


    No but I was trying to make a point as PC, and DB and Doug himself said the same thing
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  • JimmyG wrote:
    Anthony! wrote: One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

    Wilson has the best numbers of his career and yet this is easily the worst season (results-wise) of his tenure here. We are 8-5 and there's a real shot we might not even make the playoffs. The offense is extremely inconsistent. This insistence that the stagnated offense drive is all Bevell's fault and the constant minimizing of Wilson's role in it is getting old. He holds his share fair of the blame for that, and many outside analysts have pointed this out.



    The only infuriating part of your hot take is that it purposely, and stubbornly ignores that our offense lacks a number 1 receiving threat, no running game, and an O-line that struggled for much of the season. So the criticism is getting old, because his critiques blindly ignore it.

    We are literally ONE game behind teams that are considered the best in the NFC. So complaining that we're 8-5 is ridiculous
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  • Seymour wrote:
    Anthony! wrote:
    907Hawk wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Ummm....throw it away? :roll: Pretty much anything but throw into double coverage against top pass defenders.

    Soulfish is correct. We both stick up for Russell plenty, and that was a hero ball shot by definition right there.


    "Throw it away" If Wilson was asked he would agree the duck into double coverage was a bad choice.


    Pretty sure is asked he would say hope Doug does not fall/get pulled down and stops running on the other


    Come on Anthony! You are pretty sure Russell is going to throw his WR under the bus by saying he quit running?

    That is the most ridiculous thing I've seen you post yet. You know nothing about Wilson if that thought even crosses your mind. That is a complete insult to everyone here's intelligence.


    He threw an interception? Man, the top Qbs never make bone headed mistakes

    Wilson would never say it but he gave Doug a chance. Does Julio Jones or Fitzgerald make that catch? What about Jordy Nelson? Wilson should not have risked the throw, but you all are making it seem as if Wilson threw a ball his WR had no chance at. His worst int was to Graham, that throw needed more zip and needed to be closer to the sidelines. And even then he got baited into that throw.
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  • Scorpion05 wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:
    Anthony! wrote: One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

    Wilson has the best numbers of his career and yet this is easily the worst season (results-wise) of his tenure here. We are 8-5 and there's a real shot we might not even make the playoffs. The offense is extremely inconsistent. This insistence that the stagnated offense drive is all Bevell's fault and the constant minimizing of Wilson's role in it is getting old. He holds his share fair of the blame for that, and many outside analysts have pointed this out.



    The only infuriating part of your hot take is that it purposely, and stubbornly ignores that our offense lacks a number 1 receiving threat, no running game, and an O-line that struggled for much of the season. So the criticism is getting old, because his critiques blindly ignore it.

    We are literally ONE game behind teams that are considered the best in the NFC. So complaining that we're 8-5 is ridiculous


    add in a defense riddled with injuries and we are a good FG kicker form being 11-2.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Popeyejones wrote:
    Seymour wrote:No way in hell on that. Plus our oline comes with our o- coordinator.


    IMO people DRAMATICALLY underestimate the effect of a QB on perceptions of offensive lines and their effectiveness pass blocking.

    When Manning was on the Colts everyone thought he benefited from an O-line that pass blocked really well, and that he would be done in by a Broncos O-line that didn't.

    Then he moved and everyone talked about how the Colts O-line (the same players!) were disasters in pass blocking, and the Broncos "became" one of the best pass blocking O-lines in football.

    It's the same deal with the Saints, who supposedly always have an amazing O-line with great pass blockers, but as soon as those guys sign big money FA contracts with other teams every single one of them magically flames out.

    Even this year it's the same deal with the 9ers. While Beathard was starting everyone talked about how the O-line was a total disaster, and since JG has been starting these last two games people are now talking about how the O-line has magically done a good job in pass-pro of protecting him.

    This is, of course, absolute and total nonsense. Beathard got credit for being "tough enough" to take shots in the chin over and over again but NOBODY talked about how he doesn't feel pressure well, processes slowly like most rookie QBs, and was taking shots in the chin over and over again due to his own deficiencies at feeling pressure and moving around in the pocket. JG on the other hand, feels pressure and slide/adjusts really well.

    The 9ers pass blocking magically didn't get better over night. If anything it has gotten worse since JG came in because their best pass blocking O-lineman (Trent Brown) has been out the last two weeks, and a big turd pile who Hawks fans know well (Gary Gilliam) has been starting in his place and pass blocking like crap.

    Nobody wants to talk about any of this though, because they insist on it just being about the O-line.


    Add even David Carr to that. Nobody talked about how Carr's sack rate followed him to two other teams, while Houston's OL immediately looked better with Matt Schaub behind it. Truth is, Carr was just really hesitant in throwing the ball, which would have been fine had he had Wilson's ability to run.



    Carr never settled into another team. Didn't have much success either

    With Wilson, we have a QB who's had efficient passing numbers throughout his career, along with much success. So when you prove yourself, as Wilson has then yes, the O-line debate is far different from say a David Carr

    As a guy who loved watching Manning and Marvin Harrison, and saw Brady often simply because I live in the NorthEast, I just don't buy that their pressure is anywhere close to Wilson's. I don't buy that it's about how quickly they get the ball out. Especially with Brady, his most embarrassing games came against opponents who could get a hand on him

    We've had this debate ad-nauseum but, I've previously quoted articles showing sports writers saying that the drop of Manning, or the struggle from Brady for like a 3-4 game stretch is present because of their O-line struggles. In Denver, or even now in New York, both Peyton and Eli got excuses for having a poor O-line

    It simply amazes me how much of a short term memory the public has. There are so many hot takes that people simply can't remember when the media whined about the protection Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Stafford, and others DIDN'T get. Usually it would happen over the course of a few games, rarely would it last the entire season. But the point is, people stubbornly hang on to their pre-conceived notions. What this whole conversation boils down to is that people are betrayed by conventional wisdom. Russell doesn't have the height, the statue pocket presence, or the everyday look of what people think a Quarterback should look or play like. It confuses them. This entire Benoit article encapsulates that. Then you have a guy like Jimmy Gurrapalo or Carson Wentz to whom, people look at them and they have the height, build, and everything else they've been taught a QB is supposed to look or play like. And so it doesn't matter what the facts say
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  • Scorpion05 wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:
    Anthony! wrote: One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

    Wilson has the best numbers of his career and yet this is easily the worst season (results-wise) of his tenure here. We are 8-5 and there's a real shot we might not even make the playoffs. The offense is extremely inconsistent. This insistence that the stagnated offense drive is all Bevell's fault and the constant minimizing of Wilson's role in it is getting old. He holds his share fair of the blame for that, and many outside analysts have pointed this out.



    The only infuriating part of your hot take is that it purposely, and stubbornly ignores that our offense lacks a number 1 receiving threat, no running game, and an O-line that struggled for much of the season. So the criticism is getting old, because his critiques blindly ignore it.

    We are literally ONE game behind teams that are considered the best in the NFC. So complaining that we're 8-5 is ridiculous

    Hot takes? Hot takes?!

    Listen, here's some advice: first, don't use phrases that you don't understand. I do not come remotely close to "hot takes". What in blazing hell are you taking about? A "hot take" is watching Russell Wilson dance around for 9 seconds, complete a 15-yard pass, and then say "oh my god, he's the only person in the league that could have pulled that off." Yeah, he probably is, but what I can realize is that the dancing around playing sandlot football for 9 seconds is not the only way to gain 15 yards.

    Nobody watches Matt Stafford do a 3-stop drop, complete a pass for 15-yards, and then jumps on Twitter exclaiming how amazing it was, but at the end of the day both plays have the same net effect. Guess what? Wilson often has the opportunity to execute those mundane plays, but instead abandons the pocket when he feels phantom pressure. Just because Wilson resorts to sandlot mode does not mean he was forced to. Often he -- NOT the line -- is responsible for the pressure. This is exactly what Benoit is addresses.

    Second, here's some more advice: don't accuse me of ignoring "lacking a #1 receiving threat, having no running game, and not having an offensive line." Did you not see this long, detailed, exhaustive comparison between Stafford and Wilson's supporting cast where I outlined -- yes, specifically outlined -- running games, offensive lines, a lack of a #1 receiver? Seriously, man, that post was eight posts above your reply to me. Talk about a ****ing egg in the face, good lord.

    If you can't handle legitimate criticism of our own players, kick rocks.
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  • JimmyG wrote:
    Anthony! wrote:lets put an end to this

    83% of total offensive yards #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
    97% of total offensive TDs #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
    no run game
    no #1 wr
    questionable oline
    questionable play calling

    No Qb is doing more with less. enough said

    Okay, I'll try.

    Wilson accounts for 85.2% of his team's offensive yardage output. Stafford accounts for 84.2% of his team's offensive yardage output.

    Wilson has bad pass blocking (#16 ranked by Football Outsiders). Stafford has worse pass blocking (#21 by FO).

    Wilson's offensive line ranks #14 in power running, and #30 in FO "Stuffed Rank". Stafford's offensive line ranks #32 in power running and #32 in stuffed rank.

    Lions not named "Stafford" have rushed for 902 yards. Collectively, they average 3.3 yards per carry. Seahawks not named "Wilson" have rushed for 892 yards. Collectively, they average 3.4 yards per carry.

    The Seahawks have 8 wins. The score 24.2 points per game (11th) and give up 19.4 points per game (8th). The Lions have 7 wins. They score 26.0 points per game (5th) and give up 25.3 poinst per game (28th).

    Stafford has a 97.9 rating. He has thrown 23 TD and has 9 INT. Wilson has a 95.5 rating. He has thrown 29 TD and has 11 INT; he has also added 3 rush TD.

    Marvin Jones is not a #1 receiver. Golden Tate is not a #1 receiver. Eric Ebron is a giant bust. I would take Seattle's receivers over Detroit's receivers. What would the TD counts look like if Stafford had Jimmy Graham (9 TD total, most in Red Zone), and Wilson had Eric Ebron (2 TD total)?

    Questionable play calling doesn't count. That is a cop-out excuse that every fan uses.

    Do I think Stafford has been as good as Wilson? No, I don't. Do I think Wilson has been in his own stratosphere? No, I don't. Do I think Wilson is the most electrifying quarterback in the league? Yes.

    Wilson has been a walking highlight reel, but I don't think his net production is as transcendent as people think. It reminds me of baseball a bit. Sort of how a flashy, 100 MPH fastball looks amazing... but sometimes a boring 92 MPH two-seamer with a little movement can yield similar results. "Sandlot football" is like a 100 MPH fastball -- it works, but it's not the only way.


    So this factors in Wilson's O-line early in the season, compared with Stafford's? Wilson has had an improved O-line, but early on one could argue he easily dealt with the worst in the league

    We have to stop doing this thing where we completely ignore a Quarterback's rushing statistics. Because if we are, then Russell IS in a different stratosphere than Stafford. Stafford has lost 7 Fumbles, and has had 5 games where he's thrown or rushed for ONE touchdown or less. He has TURNED OVER THE BALL FOR 9 of his 13 games so far this season :pukeface:

    You can only even imply that Stafford is close to Wilson if you've failed to do the research. Stafford is a perennial loser, and it's even more irritating because Stafford gets a complete free pass in the media for how much he's sucked year after year with Different coaches and good to great level weapons around him. He's also had strong defenses before, but he has so far been a pathetic Quarterback who beats up on weak competition :177692:
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  • JimmyG wrote:
    Anthony! wrote:lets put an end to this

    83% of total offensive yards #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
    97% of total offensive TDs #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
    no run game
    no #1 wr
    questionable oline
    questionable play calling

    No Qb is doing more with less. enough said

    Okay, I'll try.

    Wilson accounts for 85.2% of his team's offensive yardage output. Stafford accounts for 84.2% of his team's offensive yardage output.

    Wilson has bad pass blocking (#16 ranked by Football Outsiders). Stafford has worse pass blocking (#21 by FO).

    Wilson's offensive line ranks #14 in power running, and #30 in FO "Stuffed Rank". Stafford's offensive line ranks #32 in power running and #32 in stuffed rank.

    Lions not named "Stafford" have rushed for 902 yards. Collectively, they average 3.3 yards per carry. Seahawks not named "Wilson" have rushed for 892 yards. Collectively, they average 3.4 yards per carry.

    The Seahawks have 8 wins. The score 24.2 points per game (11th) and give up 19.4 points per game (8th). The Lions have 7 wins. They score 26.0 points per game (5th) and give up 25.3 poinst per game (28th).

    Stafford has a 97.9 rating. He has thrown 23 TD and has 9 INT. Wilson has a 95.5 rating. He has thrown 29 TD and has 11 INT; he has also added 3 rush TD.

    Marvin Jones is not a #1 receiver. Golden Tate is not a #1 receiver. Eric Ebron is a giant bust. I would take Seattle's receivers over Detroit's receivers. What would the TD counts look like if Stafford had Jimmy Graham (9 TD total, most in Red Zone), and Wilson had Eric Ebron (2 TD total)?

    Questionable play calling doesn't count. That is a cop-out excuse that every fan uses.

    Do I think Stafford has been as good as Wilson? No, I don't. Do I think Wilson has been in his own stratosphere? No, I don't. Do I think Wilson is the most electrifying quarterback in the league? Yes.

    Wilson has been a walking highlight reel, but I don't think his net production is as transcendent as people think. It reminds me of baseball a bit. Sort of how a flashy, 100 MPH fastball looks amazing... but sometimes a boring 92 MPH two-seamer with a little movement can yield similar results. "Sandlot football" is like a 100 MPH fastball -- it works, but it's not the only way.



    Okay let me help you

    Stafford has thrown for 3683 yards and ran for 90 for a total of 3773 the lions have a total of 4699 yards which means Stafford accounts for 80% of the total offensive yards, not 84.2. In addition, the Lions have a total of 31 tds, Stafford has 23 which is only 69.6% of the total offensive tds. Neither is even close to what Wilson has done. Game over thanks for playing.
    Last edited by Anthony! on Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • Also to add to my last point, Stafford has 9 less touchdowns, less overall yards, more turnovers. In 11 of Stafford's 13 games, he's either turned over the ball or failed to score more than 1 Touchdown. His offense's 3rd down percentage is WORSE than Wilson's, despite having a better running game. And yes, when you minus Russell's rushing yards, Seattle has a worse running game than Detroit. That's not even including the threat of Wilson running, which is supposed to help his Rbs. In other words, Stafford is not a winner. Stafford has also benefitted from more turnovers and touchdowns from his defense and special teams.

    He either costs his team with turnovers, or fails to score enough for his team, or doesn't score enough to mitigate his mistakes. He is a pitiful Quarterback who deserves as much criticism for his suckage as other Qbs. And if this was just one year I'd say okay, but he consistently fails his team. Year in and year out. Even Cam Newton is better. Benoit should revoke his writing privileges for even mentioning him and Wilson in the same sentence. How much must anyone hate Russell Wilson to ignore all of these glaring facts that proves Stafford is a loser?
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  • This is going round in circles guys.
    www.hawk-talk.com

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    Richard Sherman wrote:People look forward to writing us off. Our demise was greatly overstated.
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