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Cap concerns going into 2018

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Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:12 pm
  • Overthecap hasn't been updated yet for the recent transactions, but things are looking very bleak in 2018 right now. Some major restructuring (kicking the can down the road ALA Saints) or some big name guys are getting cut soon.

    https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/seattle-seahawks/

    Seahawks currently sit with $19 million in cap space and only 37 total guys on the roster. Assuming 10 practice squad players make up to a total of ~$1 million dollars ($1.29 million is the minimum for a 10 man practice squad over 17 weeks), that leave about $17 million to sign 16 more guys, plus midseason signings to replace injured guys. Usually most teams keep $5-$10 million during the year for those injury signings... That puts the FO in a very, very tight situation.

    Who stays, who goes?
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:16 pm

Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:22 pm
  • QuickLightning wrote:For reference, here are the free agents who would also be leaving at the end of the year. Some are easy decisions (Jimmy Graham)


    Top of the league in touchdowns for tight ends (4th in the conference for receptions), more than P-Rich.

    League's 3rd-best TE in yardage in 2016.

    Not an easy decision, even if he does ultimately get jettisoned.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:24 pm
  • QuickLightning wrote:For reference, here are the free agents who would also be leaving at the end of the year. Some are easy decisions (Jimmy Graham, Eddie Lacy), but some are much more difficult (both the Richardsons)

    http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/ ... -seahawks/


    By "easy decisions" do you mean keep, let them walk, or easier to retain?

    I agree that keeping the Richardson's would be tougher to get done, but I sure hope they can.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:28 pm
  • I think Jimmy is an easy decision to let walk. He's been a lot better recently, but no where near worth $9 million.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:43 pm
  • $19+ million in cap space isn't that bad once you dig a little deeper into the numbers. Avril's $8 million cap hit, for example, will most likely be coming off the books. So that is $26.5 million, for all intents and purposes and just reading the tea leaves.

    $26.5 million would leave us with around the 19th most cap space in the league. Graham (drops and poor blocking effort) is probably gone; sad to say. Deshawn Shead can be brought back for the same low salary. Luke Willson will probably re-sign for a similar salary.

    I would love for them to re-sign Sheldon Richardson and Bradley McDougald. And that seems pretty doable with $26.5 million in space. Maybe they let Mcdougald walk and count on developing the younger safeties on the roster.

    I'm not sure what Paul Richardson's market will look like, given his injury history and relatively low production. But I think they want him back.

    We are definitely going to need to address the TE and WR positions in the draft.
    Last edited by hawknation2017 on Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:45 pm
  • With the trades JS has pulled off this season, letting Jimmy walk and nabbing that 3rd round comp is huge.

    If Avril decides to hang them up, that's like finding a $7.5million buried in your flowerbed.

    At this point I would rather allocate that money (if available) at Sheldon instead of jimmy.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:48 pm
  • We can also re-coup cash by cutting Jeremy Lane.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:21 pm
  • RobBaker7714409 wrote:We can also re-coup cash by cutting Jeremy Lane.


    4,750,000 from cutting lane. That's true.

    Keep in mind though, every player cut is another roster spot that will need filled. So him being cut and Avril retiring does free up a lot of money, but Avril is a BIG set of shoes to fill and it's also 2 more roster spots that will need filled.

    Also the Seahawks do not have a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2018. So filling the roster in with cheap rookies is going to be difficult as well.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:27 pm
  • As far as next season is concerned, we'll add money from the Brown extension if we need it. Both sides are talking about extending him, and if they need to, they can just turn next year's salary into a signing bonus and pay him the minimum as far as his base salary goes. That could potentially free up around $6 million.

    Earl Thomas could also be extended as next year is the final year of his deal, and that could free up another big chunk of cash.

    If Avril doesn't return that's another $7 million for the cap as well.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:47 pm
  • Would LOVE to keep Sheldon but what's he going to cost?

    Is he a 20 million guy?
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:27 pm
  • irfuben32 wrote:Would LOVE to keep Sheldon but what's he going to cost?

    Is he a 20 million guy?


    No. He is playing a little better than Naz Jones and Reed IMO. Those 2 combined cost less than $3M I would bet...and don't write off MM appearing soon.

    My question is would we get a comp if Sheldon signs a biggie with another team?
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:52 pm
  • LudwigsDrummer wrote:
    irfuben32 wrote:Would LOVE to keep Sheldon but what's he going to cost?

    Is he a 20 million guy?


    No. He is playing a little better than Naz Jones and Reed IMO. Those 2 combined cost less than $3M I would bet...and don't write off MM appearing soon.

    My question is would we get a comp if Sheldon signs a biggie with another team?


    Yes, we would get a Comp. Could be a 3rd depending on the contract.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:53 pm
  • LudwigsDrummer wrote:
    irfuben32 wrote:Would LOVE to keep Sheldon but what's he going to cost?

    Is he a 20 million guy?


    No. He is playing a little better than Naz Jones and Reed IMO. Those 2 combined cost less than $3M I would bet...and don't write off MM appearing soon.

    My question is would we get a comp if Sheldon signs a biggie with another team?


    Should get a 3rd rounder back
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:41 pm
  • Nobody has mentioned Sherman, extend, or possible cut ? That should reduce his cap hit also.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:06 pm
  • While we would save money if Avril retires, that money would likely be turned around and used to sign Clark. So we're really not gaining that money, but we're locking up a roster spot with Clark.

    Richardson would be a great addition long term but I think he's going to cost too much.

    I also think we're going to be able to sign Graham for less than what he's costing us now. Sure, he's an elite TE, but even elite TE's aren't making as much as him. Hell Gronk is making about 7 mil/year right now. Kelce is the best TE in the league right now and he's not making what Graham is. We'll likely offer him 6-8 million, which he'll turn down. Then FA pops up and I doubt he'll get what he's after, at which point he might be back.

    I also wonder how good that kid we got from Texas will be. If he progresses, we'll have Willson, Vannett and that other kid....that might be a decent roster of TE's already.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:00 pm
  • Jeremy Lane -> cut.
    Cliff Avril may retire, or be cut.
    Earl Thomas extension = Lower cap number.
    Duane Brown extension = Lower cap number.
    Richard Sherman extension possibly. Him coming off an injury Sherm would be more willing to do something I think to get that long term security, and Seattle would benefit by having him at a lower number.

    The Seahawks have more space than many may think.

    What to do with the space created.

    1a) Re-sign Jimmy Graham. Yr 1 cap number will be low.
    1b) Re-sign Sheldon Richardson. Yr 1 cap number will be low.

    2) Sign UFA Edge Rusher to replace Cliff Avril if he retires.

    3) Extend Frank Clark.

    4) Re-sign Paul Richardson, only if his market isn't crazy. He is probably gone, but you never know.

    They would still have plenty of money leftover to do some things.

    Like bring in a vet RB, RT, CB, etc.


    TLDR
    Playing around with the calculator, I quickly had the Seahawks at $45M in cap space in 2018 without cutting Avril. No need to worry.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:49 am
  • irfuben32 wrote:Would LOVE to keep Sheldon but what's he going to cost?

    Is he a 20 million guy?


    He has been good, but If he is a $20 mil guy, i don't think he's back here. That is just too much money to allocate to him IMO. Perhaps we tag him at around $15 mil for another year?
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:34 am
  • QuickLightning wrote:I think Jimmy is an easy decision to let walk. He's been a lot better recently, but no where near worth $9 million.


    I go back and forth. If we continue to use him in the RZ like the last month or so, $9 million is a good price, but i'm not sure if he will be re-signed. He scored the deciding TDs in the wins over LA, HOU & AZ. If 88 puts up 10+ TDs this year (on pace for 11) than I would love him at the $9mil a year price, especially with a very weak free agent TE market in 2018 and the TE draft class not being strong. Luke is also a FA after this year, so going into next year with only Vannett and Swoopes is not ideal.

    The top of the TE market hasn't risen since 2014 but mid tier guys are now making $6 mil plus in average salary:
    -Dion Sims - $6 mil a year
    -Julius Thomas - $6.1 mil
    -Jack Doyle - $6.3 mil
    -Vance McDonald - $6.55 mil
    -Jermaine Gresham - $7 mil
    -C.J. Fiedorowicz - $7.1 mil
    -Coby Fleener - $7.2 mil
    -Dwayne Allen - $7.35 mil
    -Charles Clay - $7.6 mil
    -Jason Witten - $7.4 mil (He's a HOF, but signed that deal at age 35)

    Obviously it all depends on how the rest of the year goes, but there has been crazy money being thrown around the last 2 free agency periods.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:13 am
  • For people that want to bring Graham back, realize that he'd probably have to be tagged (and thus paid the tag amount) in order for that happen. I doubt he has much interest in re-signing with the offense that the Seahawks run.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:32 am
  • Jeremy517 wrote:For people that want to bring Graham back, realize that he'd probably have to be tagged (and thus paid the tag amount) in order for that happen. I doubt he has much interest in re-signing with the offense that the Seahawks run.


    Good point, but that certainly won't happen. The TE tag amount for Graham is $15.6 million in 2018.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:16 pm
  • scrummymustard wrote:
    Jeremy517 wrote:For people that want to bring Graham back, realize that he'd probably have to be tagged (and thus paid the tag amount) in order for that happen. I doubt he has much interest in re-signing with the offense that the Seahawks run.


    Good point, but that certainly won't happen. The TE tag amount for Graham is $15.6 million in 2018.


    That was my point. People that want to bring him back need to be aware of what it will probably take.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:47 am
  • Don't bring back anyone and cut

    Lane
    Sherman
    S Richardson
    P Richardson

    Resign:

    Graham

    Load up on a proven running back or draft one in first round OR Best available player.

    Rebuild
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:13 am
  • We're nowhere near the jam that the Saints ended up in ($60mil dead money).

    I do agree that we should stop kicking the can down the road in the pursuit of a fictional closing window. The Saints thought they were doing that in 2014, it didn't work out, and they had to dump a lot of their team and waste a couple of seasons. Now that their cap is under control they are 7-2 this season because they still have Drew Brees and Sean Payton, and added some youth who are doing well in Ramcyzk, Lattimore, Kamara and Williams. Drafting well will extend any window indefinitely while drafting poorly cannot be overcome by mortgaging your future via the cap.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:22 am
  • scrummymustard wrote:
    Jeremy517 wrote:For people that want to bring Graham back, realize that he'd probably have to be tagged (and thus paid the tag amount) in order for that happen. I doubt he has much interest in re-signing with the offense that the Seahawks run.


    Good point, but that certainly won't happen. The TE tag amount for Graham is $15.6 million in 2018.


    Where are you getting that figure from? That looks like the WR number not the TE number which in 2017 was at ~9.8 mil.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:27 pm
  • Milehighhawk wrote:
    scrummymustard wrote:
    Jeremy517 wrote:For people that want to bring Graham back, realize that he'd probably have to be tagged (and thus paid the tag amount) in order for that happen. I doubt he has much interest in re-signing with the offense that the Seahawks run.


    Good point, but that certainly won't happen. The TE tag amount for Graham is $15.6 million in 2018.


    Where are you getting that figure from? That looks like the WR number not the TE number which in 2017 was at ~9.8 mil.


    The franchise tag amount is the greater of 1. the actual TE tag amount (around 10mil in 2018) or 2. 120% of the prior years cap hit ($10mil *120% =$12 mil). However, for this purpose, you have to include back the signing bonus proration from NO before he was traded. He had a $12 million signing bonus over 4 years, so $3 mil a year in proration.

    2017 $10 mil cap hit + $3 mil proration= $13 mil * 120% = $15.6 million to Franchise > $10 mil TE tag.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:46 pm
  • scrummymustard wrote:
    Milehighhawk wrote:
    scrummymustard wrote:
    Jeremy517 wrote:For people that want to bring Graham back, realize that he'd probably have to be tagged (and thus paid the tag amount) in order for that happen. I doubt he has much interest in re-signing with the offense that the Seahawks run.


    Good point, but that certainly won't happen. The TE tag amount for Graham is $15.6 million in 2018.


    Where are you getting that figure from? That looks like the WR number not the TE number which in 2017 was at ~9.8 mil.


    The franchise tag amount is the greater of 1. the actual TE tag amount (around 10mil in 2018) or 2. 120% of the prior years cap hit ($10mil *120% =$12 mil). However, for this purpose, you have to include back the signing bonus proration from NO before he was traded. He had a $12 million signing bonus over 4 years, so $3 mil a year in proration.

    2017 $10 mil cap hit + $3 mil proration= $13 mil * 120% = $15.6 million to Franchise > $10 mil TE tag.


    I may be wrong, and I'm sure there are league and player lawyers that would argue this both ways, but as his signing bonus pro-rated the day he was traded, it no longer counts, so he only has his $7.9 million base salary and his $2.1 million in bonuses making a 120% increase = $12 million.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:35 pm
  • Jimmy Graham has had his payday. The market is very different today for TEs he is probably looking at 6mil over 3 years for his next contract. I got this from a former agent who is now a writer for CBSsports.com so take it for what it is worth. Sounds more plausible than his current deal.
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Cap concerns going into 2018
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:04 pm
  • kidhawk wrote:
    scrummymustard wrote:
    Milehighhawk wrote:
    scrummymustard wrote:
    Good point, but that certainly won't happen. The TE tag amount for Graham is $15.6 million in 2018.


    Where are you getting that figure from? That looks like the WR number not the TE number which in 2017 was at ~9.8 mil.


    The franchise tag amount is the greater of 1. the actual TE tag amount (around 10mil in 2018) or 2. 120% of the prior years cap hit ($10mil *120% =$12 mil). However, for this purpose, you have to include back the signing bonus proration from NO before he was traded. He had a $12 million signing bonus over 4 years, so $3 mil a year in proration.

    2017 $10 mil cap hit + $3 mil proration= $13 mil * 120% = $15.6 million to Franchise > $10 mil TE tag.


    I may be wrong, and I'm sure there are league and player lawyers that would argue this both ways, but as his signing bonus pro-rated the day he was traded, it no longer counts, so he only has his $7.9 million base salary and his $2.1 million in bonuses making a 120% increase = $12 million.


    The signing bonus proration gets added back in, 100% positive.

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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:09 pm
  • HawkerD wrote:Jimmy Graham has had his payday. The market is very different today for TEs he is probably looking at 6mil over 3 years for his next contract. I got this from a former agent who is now a writer for CBSsports.com so take it for what it is worth. Sounds more plausible than his current deal.


    I think it's too early to tell honestly, how he finishes the year will be a large factor.

    I would be surprised if he only received $6 per annum because of the recent TE deals I stated earlier in the thread.


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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:34 am
  • kidhawk wrote:
    scrummymustard wrote:
    Milehighhawk wrote:
    scrummymustard wrote:
    Good point, but that certainly won't happen. The TE tag amount for Graham is $15.6 million in 2018.


    Where are you getting that figure from? That looks like the WR number not the TE number which in 2017 was at ~9.8 mil.


    The franchise tag amount is the greater of 1. the actual TE tag amount (around 10mil in 2018) or 2. 120% of the prior years cap hit ($10mil *120% =$12 mil). However, for this purpose, you have to include back the signing bonus proration from NO before he was traded. He had a $12 million signing bonus over 4 years, so $3 mil a year in proration.

    2017 $10 mil cap hit + $3 mil proration= $13 mil * 120% = $15.6 million to Franchise > $10 mil TE tag.


    I may be wrong, and I'm sure there are league and player lawyers that would argue this both ways, but as his signing bonus pro-rated the day he was traded, it no longer counts, so he only has his $7.9 million base salary and his $2.1 million in bonuses making a 120% increase = $12 million.


    Per the CBA (article 10):

    "For the purposes of this Article, “Salary” means the total of the Para- graph 5 Salary (reduced proportionately if the contract is entered into after the first regular season game), roster and reporting bonuses, pro-rata portion of signing bonus, and other payments to players in compensation for the playing of professional football for the applicable year of the player’s most recently negotiated Player Contract, except for performance bonuses other than roster and reporting bonuses. Salary shall also in- clude any unrepaid loans made, guaranteed or collateralized by a Team or its Team Affiliate to a player or Player Affiliate. “Prior Year Salary” means the Salary (as defined in this Subsection) for the last League Year of the player’s most recently negotiated Player Contract."

    Since the contract has not been changed, just merely transferred to the hawks, the SB gets added in. Also, it appears that the $100k workout bonus gets subtracted out, therefore it would be $12.9 million * 120% = $15.48 million to tag 88.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:21 am
  • scrummymustard wrote:
    kidhawk wrote:
    scrummymustard wrote:
    Milehighhawk wrote:
    Where are you getting that figure from? That looks like the WR number not the TE number which in 2017 was at ~9.8 mil.


    The franchise tag amount is the greater of 1. the actual TE tag amount (around 10mil in 2018) or 2. 120% of the prior years cap hit ($10mil *120% =$12 mil). However, for this purpose, you have to include back the signing bonus proration from NO before he was traded. He had a $12 million signing bonus over 4 years, so $3 mil a year in proration.

    2017 $10 mil cap hit + $3 mil proration= $13 mil * 120% = $15.6 million to Franchise > $10 mil TE tag.


    I may be wrong, and I'm sure there are league and player lawyers that would argue this both ways, but as his signing bonus pro-rated the day he was traded, it no longer counts, so he only has his $7.9 million base salary and his $2.1 million in bonuses making a 120% increase = $12 million.


    Per the CBA (article 10):

    "For the purposes of this Article, “Salary” means the total of the Para- graph 5 Salary (reduced proportionately if the contract is entered into after the first regular season game), roster and reporting bonuses, pro-rata portion of signing bonus, and other payments to players in compensation for the playing of professional football for the applicable year of the player’s most recently negotiated Player Contract, except for performance bonuses other than roster and reporting bonuses. Salary shall also in- clude any unrepaid loans made, guaranteed or collateralized by a Team or its Team Affiliate to a player or Player Affiliate. “Prior Year Salary” means the Salary (as defined in this Subsection) for the last League Year of the player’s most recently negotiated Player Contract."

    Since the contract has not been changed, just merely transferred to the hawks, the SB gets added in. Also, it appears that the $100k workout bonus gets subtracted out, therefore it would be $12.9 million * 120% = $15.48 million to tag 88.


    Interesting and a bit more complicated than I first thought. If true, its a no brainier that the tag wouldn't be used on him. Thanks for the additional details. If I were to guess, based on his age, a new deal might be somewhere around the 8 mil per he is at today, but of course that is just a wild guess.
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Re: Cap concerns going into 2018
Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:06 pm
  • QuickLightning wrote:I think Jimmy is an easy decision to let walk. He's been a lot better recently, but no where near worth $9 million.

    I'd amend this with the qualifier "to the Seahawks." He and his agent had a case in their argument that he should have been considered as a WR. His value goes down when used more like a TE. As much as he has been productive in stretches with the Hawks, I remember that the 2 years prior to his arrival were the most successful and the SB win was with a lesser RW and an old Zach Miller as the main TE (yes, dominated by the defense, but with an offense that more consistently helped make things easier for the D). I'd be more flexible in valuing him for this team if the staff were less stubborn and went away from Cable and his stale run-game principles and valued moving the chains instead of being so eager to try for the big play downfield.
    I think his age and history hurt his overall value, but there's no doubt in my mind that he is worth more to another team than he is to the Hawks.
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