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Offense is killing the Defense

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Offense is killing the Defense
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:42 pm
  • 6 out of 12 possessions went 3 & out.
    Really only had 3 sustained drives.
    This O has NO identity, direction, rhythm, clue!
    Continually putting the D back on the field. It's been going on way too long.
    Can't even ice a game with a 1st down or two.
    Making every game a nail biter instead of putting teams away. No matter how bad they are.
    Please make it stop.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:48 pm
  • I would normally agree but how about he defense stop with the penalties and they get off the field?.....
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:48 pm
  • Offense scored 20 points. Should have scored 30-40, but in a standard division game that's quite ok

    Also terrible calls by the refs
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:53 pm
  • The refs were so blatantly garbage. Or maybe we do commit fouls on every 3rd down stop. The fumble was just perfect. I knew they would give that to them!
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:54 pm
  • Same qb, coordinator, oline coach tandum for 6 years now, Owning the longest streak for no opening drive td.

    I wonder what the record for 3 and outs in a season is
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:06 pm
  • mikeak wrote:I would normally agree but how about he defense stop with the penalties and they get off the field?.....


    No. This is not a valid response to the offense having 50% 3 and out game.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:10 pm
  • Offense is not working. There are times when you feel lucky to even come away with a punt. They look lost out there.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:13 pm
  • Db needs to stop playing easy setting on madden
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:15 pm
  • Fundamental question: If the defense is donezo for the year with all these injuries, is the offense even close to being capable of making up for it?

    This was a black swan event, maybe we'll see an amazing response. Maybe not.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:17 pm
  • There is no excuse for going 3 and out on half of your possessions. NONE. This offense relies on Wilson to make stupidly great plays like the one he did to get us our second TD. It's not going to keep happening.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:24 pm
  • Offense will continue to be garbage to inconsistent all year, always been that way. Not that the defense is decimated by injury Russ and Co will need to lead the team and I just don't think they will be able to.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:02 pm
  • Okay a few things,

    I don't totally disagree with you, however, we all know the main issues with the offense; oline, penalties, refusal to play the system we know works, trying to turn a team best suited to pass to a run team, pay callng and design. Now if I can only choose one thing right now it would be penalties.

    That said there are a few things to remember 1 most of our money is on the defensive side of the ball. This is what PC wants. 3. we have had the time of possession on 3 of our last 4 games and the one game we did not it was less than 1-minute difference. Also some of what is happening to the defense is their own doing, penalties, given up big 3rd conversation etc

    Given how beat up they are it will be interesting if they finally take off the gloves and get back to playing the offense that work

    NOw the next no we have not always been inconsistent, there was a stretch in 2015 where the offense was money. Unfortunately, PC refuses to play that way unless he has no choice.

    As I stated earlier the biggest issue with the offense right now is oline. I mean lets look at the very
    first drive, a stuff for a loss, and its 3rd a long, and then a sack-oline.
    2nd series penalty and its 3rd and long again. oline
    3rd series we scored,
    4th drive big penalty but was also 6 plays
    5th 2 sacks 3rd and long oline oline
    6th 11 plays an a FG
    7h 5 pays and a FG could have been more points but penalty
    8th 5 plays and stuff and sack and 3rd and long
    9th 3 and out
    10th 7 play TD
    11th 3 play punt
    12th 3 run plays punt 1 run a stuff for lost yards oline

    then the play to end the game

    So out of 12 real possessions, we went 3 and out 6 times but 4 of this six were a result of a penalty, sack, or run stuff all oline issues.

    So there you have it if we could just fix the penalties we get 2 more scores at least. Of course if we just played the offense that works instead of trying to fit a round peg into a square whole we would be fine
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:25 pm
  • Our offense is complete garbage. Almost unwatchable.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:16 am
  • Bevell's play designs are so bad, Russell has to make "broken plays" to make up for poor designs. Commentators call them broken plays when Russell runs. It's broken before they even run them, can't fix it unless they acknowlege its broken to begin with. Pete can be as cheerful and positive as he wants but the players are making up for Bevell's incompetency.

    Every play that Russell has to make with help from his receivers in a "scramble drill" shows it's not the players that aren't doing their jobs right, it shows the person in charge designing and calling plays, isn't smart enough to use the pieces he has to work with, & is incapeable of accepting responsibility to fix it, since Bevell doesn't think it's his designs that are bad, he won't adjust as much as he needs to.
    Next man up is the mantra the team preaches.

    Well, Bevell should look in the mirror and realize his ideas(designs) are the problem and accept that he's not the genius Pete has him thinking he is. The only way this offense can't fulfill it's true potential is to replace Bevell. No matter what players John brings in for the offense, they will not be used right with Bevell designing and misusing the talent. Put players in position to excel is the goal, but the person making those decisions prove that won't happen with him still holding a job without fear of losing it. Continuity only works for so long, the competition adjust weekly and they have seen Bevell's plays enough that it's predictable, making it harder for the players to execute them, when the other team already figured out what he will call. 2 times, throwing picks on the goalline, the other team knows Bevell is so into proving his plays are great, that he will potentially cost the team wins, just to show he's smarter then them.
    Pete should accept the fact, his offense isn't working & the players executing aren't the whole reason, they don't work. Pete and Bevell want the players to execute them perfectly for it to work, there are 11 players that have to perform perfectly. That's proven to be a problem, when 1 mistake can ruin the play. I haven't heard of outlet or hot routes or check downs being pointed out during breakdowns of the game from commentators.

    Why doesn't Russell have those options, why does everyone have to run deep routes almost every play. Poor design is the main reason. I'm done venting for the night, i don't care if people disagree, i'm hear to get this out of my system and family doesn't want to hear it. Thanks and good night.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:51 am
  • Hm, maybe if we keep the same coordinator with the same game plans things will change.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:01 am
  • The defense gives up 6 first downs on penalties, 4 in one drive that literally walked the Tards to 7 points and this game the offense was the problem? Disagree. 20 points on the road should be enough with the $$$ being spent on defense here.
    Yes, there are clear problems on offense, mostly Cable and oline related, but this game I'm not on them for that performance. Especially since they finally used Graham like they should have been for 2 1/2 years now.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:13 am
  • Anyone else wish we would see more dump-off type passes available to Russ, especially since we have issues with protection? Seems like when things break down and he has to run, there isn't a lot short for him. The few times there was and used, the offensive seemed to be more effective.

    Since the running game gets stuffed so much, I really think they need to do just as much passing out of play-action on first down. Get an easy 5 or so like the play to Vennett before the big McKissic toss play. If nothing else, show that tendency to loosen up defensive fronts.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:15 am
  • the play that just had me screaming ready to smash the tv was when Russ made a fake draw to Rawls followed by a fake reverse to Lockett looking for the deep throw. how in the world did Bevell think this line would provide 6 seconds of protection to make all of this work. By the time Lockett was ready for the fake the play was already a disaster.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:17 am
  • mrt144 wrote:Fundamental question: If the defense is donezo for the year with all these injuries, is the offense even close to being capable of making up for it?

    This was a black swan event, maybe we'll see an amazing response. Maybe not.


    Offense didn't need a defense against the Texans did they?

    Literal answer is yes, they can.

    Reality is no (not consistently), not likely with penalties, Cable, Ifedi all still effecting games like they are.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:30 am
  • Half the drives were three and out, still dialing up many deep routes while defenses continue to defend deep, saved by Russell Wilson being a magician. It isn't a sustainable formula. I KNEW people would defend the score even though up until the ridiculous play by Russ and DB, the offense was doing nothing. The play call was DOA and through Russ's magic they got an enormous gain. Defense got them great field position almost all night which once again led to nothing.

    Also, nomination for dumbest play call of the season goes to Bevell with his slow developing reverse play action call right after the safety against a blitz happy defense.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:52 am
  • mistaowen wrote:Half the drives were three and out, still dialing up many deep routes while defenses continue to defend deep, saved by Russell Wilson being a magician. It isn't a sustainable formula. I KNEW people would defend the score even though up until the ridiculous play by Russ and DB, the offense was doing nothing. The play call was DOA and through Russ's magic they got an enormous gain. Defense got them great field position almost all night which once again led to nothing.

    Also, nomination for dumbest play call of the season goes to Bevell with his slow developing reverse play action call right after the safety against a blitz happy defense.


    This 100%. That reverse was something special and right there showed Bevell's situational awareness.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:13 am
  • The offense did nothing pretty much all game. They had one sustained drive that led to the first TD and two 50-50 long passes that led to another 10 points, and that was about it.

    Right now the entire offense is broken. The line can't open holes for the RB's or create time for Wilson, the RB's don't have the vision (Rawls) or speed (Lacy) to hit the few holes that are there, Wilson needs at least half the game to get into a rhythm, and the OC calls plays seemingly at random and has trouble adjusting for our weaknesses.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:15 am
  • It’s like Pete’s last year at USC.. ala History Repeating itself
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:06 am
  • ducks41468 wrote:The offense did nothing pretty much all game. They had one sustained drive that led to the first TD and two 50-50 long passes that led to another 10 points, and that was about it.

    Right now the entire offense is broken. The line can't open holes for the RB's or create time for Wilson, the RB's don't have the vision (Rawls) or speed (Lacy) to hit the few holes that are there, Wilson needs at least half the game to get into a rhythm, and the OC calls plays seemingly at random and has trouble adjusting for our weaknesses.


    I agree with this for the most part and I'm sure people are tired of me writing this but it is telling. There was many times last night were RW had 4+ seconds in the pocket and nothing came of it (not necessarily saying Wilson is at fault, could be but don't know for sure). Even 3 seconds should be enough time to get the ball off.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:54 am
  • Offense put up 20 points on the road, I'm plenty happy that that. (2 points more on the safety)
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:06 pm
  • Defense safety 2 points

    Walsh 2 field goals 6 points

    Walsh 2 extra points 2 points

    Offense 2 Touchdowns 12 points

    Lets not sugar coat it.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:21 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:Defense safety 2 points

    Walsh 2 field goals 6 points

    Walsh 2 extra points 2 points

    Offense 2 Touchdowns 12 points

    Lets not sugar coat it.


    LOL, you are not serious are you?

    That all = 2 points defense 20 points offense in every record book that exists.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:30 pm
  • My god, can you be a little more dramatic? Kicking is part of the offense no? THEY SCORED 20 POINTS ON OFFENSE. Geezus
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:41 pm
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:My god, can you be a little more dramatic? Kicking is part of the offense no? THEY SCORED 20 POINTS ON OFFENSE. Geezus



    They should have had at least three touchdown's is really the point.

    What about the previous weeks, redzone inefficiency, we were like 23 percent on third down last night as well. You guys can butter up things but as a offense were a disaster, miracle plays count as yards also and pad stats, the eye says were in trouble.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:09 pm
  • ducks41468 wrote:The offense did nothing pretty much all game. They had one sustained drive that led to the first TD and two 50-50 long passes that led to another 10 points, and that was about it.

    Right now the entire offense is broken. The line can't open holes for the RB's or create time for Wilson, the RB's don't have the vision (Rawls) or speed (Lacy) to hit the few holes that are there, Wilson needs at least half the game to get into a rhythm, and the OC calls plays seemingly at random and has trouble adjusting for our weaknesses.



    I agree with much, but Rw does not need half the game to get into rhythm, he needs to stop using the stupid 15 scripted plays which usually take up half the game. He needs to be able to play the uptempo, west coast boom offense that worked in 2nd half of 2015 and when we used it this year. It is simple whenever we move the ball easily we are using this offense. It helps the oline for blocking, helps the run game, and most importantly allows Rwe to make more choices rather than being stuck with what Bevel Calls
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:11 pm
  • seahawkfreak wrote:
    ducks41468 wrote:The offense did nothing pretty much all game. They had one sustained drive that led to the first TD and two 50-50 long passes that led to another 10 points, and that was about it.

    Right now the entire offense is broken. The line can't open holes for the RB's or create time for Wilson, the RB's don't have the vision (Rawls) or speed (Lacy) to hit the few holes that are there, Wilson needs at least half the game to get into a rhythm, and the OC calls plays seemingly at random and has trouble adjusting for our weaknesses.


    I agree with this for the most part and I'm sure people are tired of me writing this but it is telling. There was many times last night were RW had 4+ seconds in the pocket and nothing came of it (not necessarily saying Wilson is at fault, could be but don't know for sure). Even 3 seconds should be enough time to get the ball off.



    Agreed a lot of that is the route designs, they are simple and easy to defend
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:44 pm
  • Score 20 points on offense, won the game. Doesn't mean crap what it looks like.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:41 pm
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Score 20 points on offense, won the game. Doesn't mean crap what it looks like.


    Betting 20 points isn't enough the rest of the season, but go ahead drink Bevells and Pete's Kool aide. Siouxhawk will be your Server this evening.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:32 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Score 20 points on offense, won the game. Doesn't mean crap what it looks like.


    Betting 20 points isn't enough the rest of the season, but go ahead drink Bevells and Pete's Kool aide. Siouxhawk will be your Server this evening.


    LOL. Seriously, I laughed out loud, thanks Chris. :mrgreen:

    I agree that the offense was a disaster yesterday. The scramble play was awesome, but no one in their right mind is claiming that as a win for offensive gameplanning. There was a great deep shot to Richardson and the two Jimmy Graham TDs. What other good plays were there? McKissic finally had a cool misdirection run and Rawls ran through a gaping hole. Run game was blanked otherwise.

    Sure, Russ had time on some plays, but I don't think anyone was getting open or he's being gun shy. He had Lockett open in the endzone but underthrew him. I can live with that, but I know Wilson can hit that throw. Unfortunately, the RB was wide open for a first down on that play too, but again it wasn't a bad read.

    I get that we just needed the win, but do we seriously have confidence that this offense can compensate for a defense that just took a major hit in losing Sherman and has many other banged up players? I don't.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:42 pm
  • Thought I would chime in on this thread, only because the parallels I see are rather uncanny. Perhaps not quite to the same degree, but similar nonetheless. Full disclosure, Niners fan here but I sincerely try to be as impartial as I can be.

    It feels like the Seahawks are following a similar, though less pronounced, route the Niners went with Harbaugh. Dominating defense with an offense that showed sparks of greatness. However, as the team began to age, and never really addressed the underlying offensive problems, cracks began to show and the team fell apart. The defense faltered (though to be fair the Niners went through an incredible amount of turmoil in the latter Harbaugh years) and a promising offense never quite came to fruition to carry a declining defense.

    From what I have watched of the Seahawks, it feels like Wilson has not quite re-established himself as the truly elite QB he was made to be. He does amazing things, but working within the offense as designed is not something he excels at. Bevell certainly should shoulder some of the blame, but a basic offense was something Niners fans criticized Harbaugh of. The real problem was an underlying lack of talent despite what the coaches and fans believed. It is entirely possible Wilson seems to struggle when playing within the framework of the offense because receivers are simply not getting open. If the throw is not there, it probably shouldn't be made. That would not be a knock on Wilson, but on the receivers.

    In addition, the defense while still playing at a high level, has begun to show signs that it is not the incredible force it used to be. This is putting additional pressure on an offense that was never designed to win shootouts. Similar to the Niners under Harbaugh, the offense is designed to merely conservatively control the game and let the defense be the focal point of the team. This is not necessarily a bad strategy, but when the offense struggles due to a talent gap, the defense needs to play at an elite level for an extended period of time. That is no easy task for any NFL team.

    I truly think the Seahawks still have an extremely talented team. But the holes on the team are beginning to show in a manner similar to what the Niners experienced under Harbaugh. I absolutely do not think their fall will be as dramatic, quick or as pronounced as the Niners, but it is something concerning to think about. A coach who seems overly committed to an OC that is not getting results, an offense that appears to be declining rather than improving, a defense that is quietly slipping were all things the Niners experienced under Harbaugh and ultimately led to the mess we see now. Seattle has some similar parallels.

    I trust the Seahawks have better management than the Niners and I think they are poised to address these issues from a talent standpoint in an effective manner. How it all gels from a coaching standpoint remains to be seen, but I thought I would throw this out there since I find it rather fascinating.

    Apologies for the giant wall of text here guys, but I couldn't find a way to make this more concise.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:30 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Score 20 points on offense, won the game. Doesn't mean crap what it looks like.


    Betting 20 points isn't enough the rest of the season, but go ahead drink Bevells and Pete's Kool aide. Siouxhawk will be your Server this evening.


    I literally laughed out loud.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:32 pm
  • inda2o6 wrote:Every play that Russell has to make with help from his receivers in a "scramble drill" shows it's not the players that aren't doing their jobs right, it shows the person in charge designing and calling plays, isn't smart enough to use the pieces he has to work with, & is incapeable of accepting responsibility to fix it, since Bevell doesn't think it's his designs that are bad, he won't adjust as much as he needs to.
    Next man up is the mantra the team preaches.

    This is just completely wrong. This is the lazy "a failed play is the result of a bad call by the OC" nonsense that is trotted out every other post on this board.

    Cris Collinsworth specifically mentioned something about this during the broadcast. He said (paraphrasing), "when I like at the tape, I often see Wilson's first and second reads open but he routinely displays a reluctance to throw it. He's almost overly-conservative and safe with the ball. This sometimes leads to him holding on to the ball too long..."

    Let's look at a hypothetical example here:

    Wilson drops back to pass. His primary read is open, but he hesitates to throw the ball (under the entire PC tenure we've preached ball safety, i.e. win the turnover battle / limit interceptions). After a few seconds, the protection starts to break down (linemen can only block so long). Wilson starts scrambling around, and starts embarrassing pass rushers with his amazing agility. The "scramble drill" that you mentioned kicks in, and he completes a pass to an open receiver.

    Here's how you should look at this: the playcall was fine, Wilson's read was open. The pass blocking was fine, they gave him ample time to hit the first/second read. The scramble drill was unnecessary, but it worked out well anyway; Wilson is obviously comfortable with that style of play, so who cares, it worked out.

    Here's how 99% of fans would evaluate that play: wow, what a terrible play call, Wilson had no one to throw to (wrong, his first read was open)! Wow, what terrible pass blocking, the line sucks so bad, they gave him no time to throw (wrong, he did get adequate pass blocking, he just held the ball for an unreasonable amount of time)! Wilson had no choice but to run for his life!

    Playcalling is only half the battle. Actually executing the play as it was designed is on the players. Not every scramble drill is the result of a poor play call, often it's the result of Wilson being hesitant and resorting to something that he shouldn't have.

    Obviously our line sucks, but there are many plays where we actually do provide adequate blocking and Wilson still holds it too long or takes off and runs outside the pocket. Sometimes Wilson shares the blame, it's not always on the OL/OC.

    Wilson is very unique because he can turn a broken play into a positive gain -- not many QBs can do that. However, a broken play does not always mean a bad playcall, sometimes he just fails to execute as a conventional QB.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:48 pm
  • JimmyG wrote:
    inda2o6 wrote:Every play that Russell has to make with help from his receivers in a "scramble drill" shows it's not the players that aren't doing their jobs right, it shows the person in charge designing and calling plays, isn't smart enough to use the pieces he has to work with, & is incapeable of accepting responsibility to fix it, since Bevell doesn't think it's his designs that are bad, he won't adjust as much as he needs to.
    Next man up is the mantra the team preaches.

    This is just completely wrong. This is the lazy "a failed play is the result of a bad call by the OC" nonsense that is trotted out every other post on this board.

    Cris Collinsworth specifically mentioned something about this during the broadcast. He said (paraphrasing), "when I like at the tape, I often see Wilson's first and second reads open but he routinely displays a reluctance to throw it. He's almost overly-conservative and safe with the ball. This sometimes leads to him holding on to the ball too long..."

    Let's look at a hypothetical example here:

    Wilson drops back to pass. His primary read is open, but he hesitates to throw the ball (under the entire PC tenure we've preached ball safety, i.e. win the turnover battle / limit interceptions). After a few seconds, the protection starts to break down (linemen can only block so long). Wilson starts scrambling around, and starts embarrassing pass rushers with his amazing agility. The "scramble drill" that you mentioned kicks in, and he completes a pass to an open receiver.

    Here's how you should look at this: the playcall was fine, Wilson's read was open. The pass blocking was fine, they gave him ample time to hit the first/second read. The scramble drill was unnecessary, but it worked out well anyway; Wilson is obviously comfortable with that style of play, so who cares, it worked out.

    Here's how 99% of fans would evaluate that play: wow, what a terrible play call, Wilson had no one to throw to (wrong, his first read was open)! Wow, what terrible pass blocking, the line sucks so bad, they gave him no time to throw (wrong, he did get adequate pass blocking, he just held the ball for an unreasonable amount of time)! Wilson had no choice but to run for his life!

    Playcalling is only half the battle. Actually executing the play as it was designed is on the players. Not every scramble drill is the result of a poor play call, often it's the result of Wilson being hesitant and resorting to something that he shouldn't have.

    Obviously our line sucks, but there are many plays where we actually do provide adequate blocking and Wilson still holds it too long or takes off and runs outside the pocket. Sometimes Wilson shares the blame, it's not always on the OL/OC.


    Hmm interesting and yet last night the announcers were saying no one was open alot, heck even Collingsworth said numerous times no one was open. I relistened to the game and never heard him say that at all, HMM, What I did hear him say was that, and I am paraphrasing he has watched film and lot of time his 1st and send reads get open but after Wilson has already past them in his progressions. meaning they were not open when it was their turn in the progression.

    While I do think alot of the issues is the play design and oline, I am aware there are other issues, but those issues are so far down the list and such a small part they are not worth discussing till you fix the big issues, oline, and play call and design. FYI I have also heard several announcers and experts say the same thing about getting open late.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:57 am
  • Hendo66 wrote:6 out of 12 possessions went 3 & out.
    Really only had 3 sustained drives.
    This O has NO identity, direction, rhythm, clue!
    Continually putting the D back on the field. It's been going on way too long.
    Can't even ice a game with a 1st down or two.
    Making every game a nail biter instead of putting teams away. No matter how bad they are.
    Please make it stop.


    I wouldn't say I disagree per se but we won TOP with no run game and their drives continuously extended by penalty. I just find it hard to see the defense as being "killed" when we win TOP even if they were the better unit. It seems not wrong in totality but a bit hyperbolic. And it hurts to have negative plays (penalties, run stuff, sacks) b/c of the 6 drives you reference 4 were 3rd and 8+, 3 were 10+.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:00 am
  • JimmyG wrote:
    inda2o6 wrote:Every play that Russell has to make with help from his receivers in a "scramble drill" shows it's not the players that aren't doing their jobs right, it shows the person in charge designing and calling plays, isn't smart enough to use the pieces he has to work with, & is incapeable of accepting responsibility to fix it, since Bevell doesn't think it's his designs that are bad, he won't adjust as much as he needs to.
    Next man up is the mantra the team preaches.

    This is just completely wrong. This is the lazy "a failed play is the result of a bad call by the OC" nonsense that is trotted out every other post on this board.

    Cris Collinsworth specifically mentioned something about this during the broadcast. He said (paraphrasing), "when I like at the tape, I often see Wilson's first and second reads open but he routinely displays a reluctance to throw it. He's almost overly-conservative and safe with the ball. This sometimes leads to him holding on to the ball too long..."

    Let's look at a hypothetical example here:

    Wilson drops back to pass. His primary read is open, but he hesitates to throw the ball (under the entire PC tenure we've preached ball safety, i.e. win the turnover battle / limit interceptions). After a few seconds, the protection starts to break down (linemen can only block so long). Wilson starts scrambling around, and starts embarrassing pass rushers with his amazing agility. The "scramble drill" that you mentioned kicks in, and he completes a pass to an open receiver.

    Here's how you should look at this: the playcall was fine, Wilson's read was open. The pass blocking was fine, they gave him ample time to hit the first/second read. The scramble drill was unnecessary, but it worked out well anyway; Wilson is obviously comfortable with that style of play, so who cares, it worked out.

    Here's how 99% of fans would evaluate that play: wow, what a terrible play call, Wilson had no one to throw to (wrong, his first read was open)! Wow, what terrible pass blocking, the line sucks so bad, they gave him no time to throw (wrong, he did get adequate pass blocking, he just held the ball for an unreasonable amount of time)! Wilson had no choice but to run for his life!

    Playcalling is only half the battle. Actually executing the play as it was designed is on the players. Not every scramble drill is the result of a poor play call, often it's the result of Wilson being hesitant and resorting to something that he shouldn't have.

    Obviously our line sucks, but there are many plays where we actually do provide adequate blocking and Wilson still holds it too long or takes off and runs outside the pocket. Sometimes Wilson shares the blame, it's not always on the OL/OC.

    Wilson is very unique because he can turn a broken play into a positive gain -- not many QBs can do that. However, a broken play does not always mean a bad playcall, sometimes he just fails to execute as a conventional QB.



    So much deflection good lord
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:19 am
  • mistaowen wrote:
    JimmyG wrote:
    inda2o6 wrote:Every play that Russell has to make with help from his receivers in a "scramble drill" shows it's not the players that aren't doing their jobs right, it shows the person in charge designing and calling plays, isn't smart enough to use the pieces he has to work with, & is incapeable of accepting responsibility to fix it, since Bevell doesn't think it's his designs that are bad, he won't adjust as much as he needs to.
    Next man up is the mantra the team preaches.

    This is just completely wrong. This is the lazy "a failed play is the result of a bad call by the OC" nonsense that is trotted out every other post on this board.

    Cris Collinsworth specifically mentioned something about this during the broadcast. He said (paraphrasing), "when I like at the tape, I often see Wilson's first and second reads open but he routinely displays a reluctance to throw it. He's almost overly-conservative and safe with the ball. This sometimes leads to him holding on to the ball too long..."

    Let's look at a hypothetical example here:

    Wilson drops back to pass. His primary read is open, but he hesitates to throw the ball (under the entire PC tenure we've preached ball safety, i.e. win the turnover battle / limit interceptions). After a few seconds, the protection starts to break down (linemen can only block so long). Wilson starts scrambling around, and starts embarrassing pass rushers with his amazing agility. The "scramble drill" that you mentioned kicks in, and he completes a pass to an open receiver.

    Here's how you should look at this: the playcall was fine, Wilson's read was open. The pass blocking was fine, they gave him ample time to hit the first/second read. The scramble drill was unnecessary, but it worked out well anyway; Wilson is obviously comfortable with that style of play, so who cares, it worked out.

    Here's how 99% of fans would evaluate that play: wow, what a terrible play call, Wilson had no one to throw to (wrong, his first read was open)! Wow, what terrible pass blocking, the line sucks so bad, they gave him no time to throw (wrong, he did get adequate pass blocking, he just held the ball for an unreasonable amount of time)! Wilson had no choice but to run for his life!

    Playcalling is only half the battle. Actually executing the play as it was designed is on the players. Not every scramble drill is the result of a poor play call, often it's the result of Wilson being hesitant and resorting to something that he shouldn't have.

    Obviously our line sucks, but there are many plays where we actually do provide adequate blocking and Wilson still holds it too long or takes off and runs outside the pocket. Sometimes Wilson shares the blame, it's not always on the OL/OC.

    Wilson is very unique because he can turn a broken play into a positive gain -- not many QBs can do that. However, a broken play does not always mean a bad playcall, sometimes he just fails to execute as a conventional QB.



    So much deflection good lord


    got to protect the OC that says broken plays are past of the game plan lol
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:20 am
  • mistaowen wrote:So much deflection good lord

    It's not deflection, it's actually attempting to objectively look at what happens. But, by all means, please resort to the braindead "omg its all bevellz fault" arguments. I love seeing the shared delusion on this board. Just because everybody trots out the same lazy excuse and pats each other on the back doesn't make it true.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:22 am
  • Anthony! wrote:got to protect the OC that says broken plays are past of the game plan lol

    I am far from a Bevell apologist. I just know that if he's fired and we bring in someone new, people are still going to cry about the new OC holding us back. Almost all fans complain about their OC.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:50 am
  • JimmyG wrote:
    inda2o6 wrote:Every play that Russell has to make with help from his receivers in a "scramble drill" shows it's not the players that aren't doing their jobs right, it shows the person in charge designing and calling plays, isn't smart enough to use the pieces he has to work with, & is incapeable of accepting responsibility to fix it, since Bevell doesn't think it's his designs that are bad, he won't adjust as much as he needs to.
    Next man up is the mantra the team preaches.

    This is just completely wrong. This is the lazy "a failed play is the result of a bad call by the OC" nonsense that is trotted out every other post on this board.

    Cris Collinsworth specifically mentioned something about this during the broadcast. He said (paraphrasing), "when I like at the tape, I often see Wilson's first and second reads open but he routinely displays a reluctance to throw it. He's almost overly-conservative and safe with the ball. This sometimes leads to him holding on to the ball too long..."

    Let's look at a hypothetical example here:

    Wilson drops back to pass. His primary read is open, but he hesitates to throw the ball (under the entire PC tenure we've preached ball safety, i.e. win the turnover battle / limit interceptions). After a few seconds, the protection starts to break down (linemen can only block so long). Wilson starts scrambling around, and starts embarrassing pass rushers with his amazing agility. The "scramble drill" that you mentioned kicks in, and he completes a pass to an open receiver.

    Here's how you should look at this: the playcall was fine, Wilson's read was open. The pass blocking was fine, they gave him ample time to hit the first/second read. The scramble drill was unnecessary, but it worked out well anyway; Wilson is obviously comfortable with that style of play, so who cares, it worked out.

    Here's how 99% of fans would evaluate that play: wow, what a terrible play call, Wilson had no one to throw to (wrong, his first read was open)! Wow, what terrible pass blocking, the line sucks so bad, they gave him no time to throw (wrong, he did get adequate pass blocking, he just held the ball for an unreasonable amount of time)! Wilson had no choice but to run for his life!

    Playcalling is only half the battle. Actually executing the play as it was designed is on the players. Not every scramble drill is the result of a poor play call, often it's the result of Wilson being hesitant and resorting to something that he shouldn't have.

    Obviously our line sucks, but there are many plays where we actually do provide adequate blocking and Wilson still holds it too long or takes off and runs outside the pocket. Sometimes Wilson shares the blame, it's not always on the OL/OC.

    Wilson is very unique because he can turn a broken play into a positive gain -- not many QBs can do that. However, a broken play does not always mean a bad playcall, sometimes he just fails to execute as a conventional QB.

    This is a fantastic summation JimmyG. Our first and second reads we're open. We also had open underneath routes. Russ was passing them up to either go for the chunk play or the scramble. This happened a lot. But he also did complete many throws as the play was designed.

    I think the biggest issue is Russ is gunshy from all the hits he's taken recently and bails at the first sign of trouble. He does that little head bob where it looks like he's preparing for a sack and then goes into scramble mode. He's the best at doing that and making a big play happen, but we don't know the results had he stepped up in the pocket to buy an extra second and throw to the open receiver.

    It also helps when we are facing a 3rd-and-4 as opposed to a 3rd-and-14 because of yet another penalty. Your odds of succeeding are greatly diminished.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:02 am
  • And yes, it's hard to take anything the Bevell bashers write with any seriousness anymore. They are beyond hope with their vitriol and offer anything of little substance, cherry picking stats that they think will support their lost narrative.

    The fact of the matter is that Bev works with less than many of his peers given the vast imbalance of resources on our team between defense and offense. He also works within Pete's confined risk-adverse offense. And he makes it work. I only point out the obvious and I get slandered because it goes against the grain of the echo chamber of false assumptions. Or as JimmyG stated, lazy analysis because some people need a scapegoat. And that's even when we win. Which we have been doing at nearly at a 70 percent clip since Bevell's been aboard.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:37 am
  • Siouxhawk wrote:And yes, it's hard to take anything the Bevell bashers write with any seriousness anymore. They are beyond hope with their vitriol and offer anything of little substance, cherry picking stats that they think will support their lost narrative

    The fact of the matter is that Bev works with less than many of his peers given the vast imbalance of resources on our team between defense and offense. He also works within Pete's confined risk-adverse offense. And he makes it work. I only point out the obvious and I get slandered because it goes against the grain of the echo chamber of false assumptions. Or as JimmyG stated, lazy analysis because some people need a scapegoat. And that's even when we win. Which we have been doing at nearly at a 70 percent clip since Bevell's been aboard.


    Funny that's all you do in support of Bevell.

    "We have the screen in our playbook, we just never run it for whatever reason." that was Wilson(paraphrasing) after the Texans game I think. I don't buy the "our oline cant run a screen excuse." The playcaller needs to find a way to incorporate common sense plays into the gameplan.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:41 am
  • cymatica wrote:
    Siouxhawk wrote:And yes, it's hard to take anything the Bevell bashers write with any seriousness anymore. They are beyond hope with their vitriol and offer anything of little substance, cherry picking stats that they think will support their lost narrative

    The fact of the matter is that Bev works with less than many of his peers given the vast imbalance of resources on our team between defense and offense. He also works within Pete's confined risk-adverse offense. And he makes it work. I only point out the obvious and I get slandered because it goes against the grain of the echo chamber of false assumptions. Or as JimmyG stated, lazy analysis because some people need a scapegoat. And that's even when we win. Which we have been doing at nearly at a 70 percent clip since Bevell's been aboard.


    Funny that's all you do in support of Bevell.

    "We have the screen in our playbook, we just never run it for whatever reason." that was Wilson(paraphrasing) after the Texans game I think. I don't buy the "our oline cant run a screen excuse." The playcaller needs to find a way to incorporate common sense plays into the gameplan.

    He does all the time. If you can't see it, it's on you.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:37 am
  • Siouxhawk wrote:
    cymatica wrote:
    Siouxhawk wrote:And yes, it's hard to take anything the Bevell bashers write with any seriousness anymore. They are beyond hope with their vitriol and offer anything of little substance, cherry picking stats that they think will support their lost narrative

    The fact of the matter is that Bev works with less than many of his peers given the vast imbalance of resources on our team between defense and offense. He also works within Pete's confined risk-adverse offense. And he makes it work. I only point out the obvious and I get slandered because it goes against the grain of the echo chamber of false assumptions. Or as JimmyG stated, lazy analysis because some people need a scapegoat. And that's even when we win. Which we have been doing at nearly at a 70 percent clip since Bevell's been aboard.


    Funny that's all you do in support of Bevell.

    "We have the screen in our playbook, we just never run it for whatever reason." that was Wilson(paraphrasing) after the Texans game I think. I don't buy the "our oline cant run a screen excuse." The playcaller needs to find a way to incorporate common sense plays into the gameplan.

    He does all the time. If you can't see it, it's on you.


    Hb screen? No you are flat out wrong. Wilson even said himself they hardly ever run it.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:46 am
  • cymatica wrote:
    Siouxhawk wrote:
    cymatica wrote:
    Siouxhawk wrote:And yes, it's hard to take anything the Bevell bashers write with any seriousness anymore. They are beyond hope with their vitriol and offer anything of little substance, cherry picking stats that they think will support their lost narrative

    The fact of the matter is that Bev works with less than many of his peers given the vast imbalance of resources on our team between defense and offense. He also works within Pete's confined risk-adverse offense. And he makes it work. I only point out the obvious and I get slandered because it goes against the grain of the echo chamber of false assumptions. Or as JimmyG stated, lazy analysis because some people need a scapegoat. And that's even when we win. Which we have been doing at nearly at a 70 percent clip since Bevell's been aboard.


    Funny that's all you do in support of Bevell.

    "We have the screen in our playbook, we just never run it for whatever reason." that was Wilson(paraphrasing) after the Texans game I think. I don't buy the "our oline cant run a screen excuse." The playcaller needs to find a way to incorporate common sense plays into the gameplan.

    He does all the time. If you can't see it, it's on you.


    Hb screen? No you are flat out wrong. Wilson even said himself they hardly ever run it.

    Rawls or McKissick gained about 4 on a hb screen Thursday. We countered their pressure game well enough. On those screens, you still need blocking to engage and release. Problem is, our line can't even get that initial engage, so defenders are blowing up the play before it can happen.
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Re: Offense is killing the Defense
Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:54 am
  • Siouxhawk wrote:
    cymatica wrote:
    Siouxhawk wrote:
    cymatica wrote:
    Funny that's all you do in support of Bevell.

    "We have the screen in our playbook, we just never run it for whatever reason." that was Wilson(paraphrasing) after the Texans game I think. I don't buy the "our oline cant run a screen excuse." The playcaller needs to find a way to incorporate common sense plays into the gameplan.

    He does all the time. If you can't see it, it's on you.


    Hb screen? No you are flat out wrong. Wilson even said himself they hardly ever run it.

    Rawls or McKissick gained about 4 on a hb screen Thursday. We countered their pressure game well enough. On those screens, you still need blocking to engage and release. Problem is, our line can't even get that initial engage, so defenders are blowing up the play before it can happen.


    Cool where were those in the greenbay game? How many we run all season?

    I wasn't refering to the az game either but i find it funny you think running 1 hb screen last game refutes the fact that we pretty much never ran that play, all season when it would have helped.
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