What Happened to our Offensive Line?

dogorama · Aug 7, 2016

While this is easily viewed as pure conjecture, it certainly is worth pondering. We traded away a first round pick for Percy Harvin and then a first round pick AND Max Unger for Jimmy Graham. Given that we have gotten next to nothing out of those trades and gave up a ton, one wonders what could have been. There is no way of knowing whether the Seahawks would have drafted offensive linemen with those two first round picks but just for the sake of this "what-could-have-been" let's pretend they were trying to build a first-class O-line. You could have had two first rounders playing beside Ifedi, Max Unger at center, and w/the addl cap created by not having those trades, Okung at one of those tackle spots. Voila! we go from 32nd ranked O-line to top-5 O-line!

I realize that hindsight is 20-20 and a certain amount of this sounds like pure BS BUT that isn't the real point of what I am trying to convey. The point is that trading away first round picks is risky business because you count on those picks to replace starters and create sustainability in your roster. Go ahead, take your shots.

bevellisthedevil · Aug 7, 2016

I think it was easy for the Seahawks to make the O-line the last priority based on the mobility Wilson has. It does look like they have attempted to remedy the situation they are currently in. Will it ever come back to bite us? It is hard to say. If Wilson gets rid of the ball like he did the last 6 games of the season, it might not.

kearly · Aug 7, 2016

It's hard to find good starting OL in the draft without owning a top 15 pick. The best OL avaiable at Seattle's original 25th pick in 2013 was Menelik Watson. The best OL available at Seattle's #31 pick in 2015 was Donovan Smith. It's hard to say that those additions would be all that much of a difference to what we have now.

Unger was let go because he had two straight injured seasons in a row, and had other injured seasons prior to that. They didn't trust him to stay healthy, and Seattle likes to use fewer spots on the roster for OL so having to stash injured players is tough when you commit fewer roster spots to OL to begin with.

Despite all these issues, Seattle has had the best run game in the NFL over the past 4 years. I'm hardly a Tom Cable apologist but he has delivered a very good running game. That's why Pete brought him here.

Seattle hasn't skimped on the OL btw. They've drafted three lineman in the first round since 2011, plus a 2nd rounder, a couple of third rounders and a couple of fourth rounders to go with several late round / UDFA additions. The problem isn't investment, the problem has been some questionable talent evaluation at times and some struggles with Tom Cable to develop players who are sushi-raw coming out of the college game.

My only real gripe with Seattle investment-wise was when they simply watched as Evan Mathis and Jared Veldheer signed with other teams (both are now currently members of the Cardinals). Both were essentially the Michael Bennett of OL signings, good players who's contracts were way below their actual on-field worth. This is how Arizona is able to hang with Seattle, they don't miss the layups in free agency and don't outsmart themselves in the first three rounds of the draft.

LickMyNuts · Aug 7, 2016

with the offense we all saw in the second half of 2015 in mind I think the interior protection will be more important than the outside

if we get good pass protection from the guards and the run blocking comes together we'll be in good shape

dogorama · Aug 7, 2016

kearly":ib5f6fny said:
It's hard to find good starting OL in the draft without owning a top 15 pick. The best OL avaiable at Seattle's original 25th pick in 2013 was Menelik Watson. The best OL available at Seattle's #31 pick in 2015 was Donovan Smith. It's hard to say that those additions would be all that much of a difference to what we have now.

Unger was let go because he had two straight injured seasons in a row, and had other injured seasons prior to that. They didn't trust him to stay healthy, and Seattle likes to use fewer spots on the roster for OL so having to stash injured players is tough when you commit fewer roster spots to OL to begin with.

Despite all these issues, Seattle has had the best run game in the NFL over the past 4 years. I'm hardly a Tom Cable apologist but he has delivered a very good running game. That's why Pete brought him here.

I get what you are saying but we just brought in a offensive lineman that was injured last year and he is way older than Unger was when we traded him. I am also not willing to accept that there aren't good offensive linemen available after the 15th pick, we just got an excellent prospect at 29. Let me put it this way, who would you rather have at center, Justin Britt or Unger? AND who you you rather have at LT, Gilliam or Okung?

Hawks46 · Aug 7, 2016

To compound what Kearly said, both Schneider and Cable have said it's hard to expect rookies to contribute at a high level right away with the advent of all the spread offenses in the NFL.

We haven't been all that great with our draft picks on the OL, but if you look at it league wide, we're not doing worse than average. There's a ton of guys that are being picked in the 1st round and washing out. So it's hard to say "what if" about draft picks we traded away, because we don't have any idea who they would draft, and if those guys would pan out.

I like the size and athleticism of our OL now. I like the fact that All of them (outside of Fant) have extensive experience in college at the OL. We're not relying on DL conversion projects here people. If these guys can pass protect at an average level, we're going to possibly have a historic offense because our OL right now can physically dominate a lot of teams. We don't have to beat them with scheme, these guys can win 1 on 1's at the point of attack.

Think about it: Wilson was lighting the league up at a historic level last year. Baldwin has proven he's almost uncoverable 1 on 1, now add Lockett. If Richardson can stay healthy, he's also looking really good again. Throw in Kearse, Williams, maybe Lawler and we have guys that can win with speed, quickness, jump balls, you name it. Now we have Willson who is a mismatch against most LBers in the league. We have a rookie in Vannett who is shaping up to be a Zack Miller mold of TE; he can block and run routes (which is also really hard for LBers to cover).

Throw this against an OL who can run block at an elite level, and you put guys like Rawls, Michael, Collins, and either Prosise or Brooks. Now you have runners that can hit home runs, can wear down a defense, and can run routes like WRs and have elite hands. You're seriously stretching a defense vertically and hortizontally, while also gutting them underneath with RBs out of the backfield. All while having an OL that can just pummel you.

Add to all of this insane depth. We can lose starting WRs and RB's and not lose a hell of a lot. It's on paper right now. I need to see it on the field, but it's honestly not going to take much for us to lead the league in offense, while playing in the best defensive division in football.

dogorama · Aug 7, 2016

Hawks46":56yop9wf said:
To compound what Kearly said, both Schneider and Cable have said it's hard to expect rookies to contribute at a high level right away with the advent of all the spread offenses in the NFL.

We haven't been all that great with our draft picks on the OL, but if you look at it league wide, we're not doing worse than average. There's a ton of guys that are being picked in the 1st round and washing out. So it's hard to say "what if" about draft picks we traded away, because we don't have any idea who they would draft, and if those guys would pan out.

I like the size and athleticism of our OL now. I like the fact that All of them (outside of Fant) have extensive experience in college at the OL. We're not relying on DL conversion projects here people. If these guys can pass protect at an average level, we're going to possibly have a historic offense because our OL right now can physically dominate a lot of teams. We don't have to beat them with scheme, these guys can win 1 on 1's at the point of attack.

Think about it: Wilson was lighting the league up at a historic level last year. Baldwin has proven he's almost uncoverable 1 on 1, now add Lockett. If Richardson can stay healthy, he's also looking really good again. Throw in Kearse, Williams, maybe Lawler and we have guys that can win with speed, quickness, jump balls, you name it. Now we have Willson who is a mismatch against most LBers in the league. We have a rookie in Vannett who is shaping up to be a Zack Miller mold of TE; he can block and run routes (which is also really hard for LBers to cover).

Throw this against an OL who can run block at an elite level, and you put guys like Rawls, Michael, Collins, and either Prosise or Brooks. Now you have runners that can hit home runs, can wear down a defense, and can run routes like WRs and have elite hands. You're seriously stretching a defense vertically and hortizontally, while also gutting them underneath with RBs out of the backfield. All while having an OL that can just pummel you.

Add to all of this insane depth. We can lose starting WRs and RB's and not lose a hell of a lot. It's on paper right now. I need to see it on the field, but it's honestly not going to take much for us to lead the league in offense, while playing in the best defensive division in football.

Okay, I love your guys optimism, wish I felt the same way. I still think trading first round picks however, is a mistake.

EverydayImRusselin · Aug 7, 2016

dogorama":d732z2nq said:
kearly":d732z2nq said:

It's hard to find good starting OL in the draft without owning a top 15 pick. The best OL avaiable at Seattle's original 25th pick in 2013 was Menelik Watson. The best OL available at Seattle's #31 pick in 2015 was Donovan Smith. It's hard to say that those additions would be all that much of a difference to what we have now.

Unger was let go because he had two straight injured seasons in a row, and had other injured seasons prior to that. They didn't trust him to stay healthy, and Seattle likes to use fewer spots on the roster for OL so having to stash injured players is tough when you commit fewer roster spots to OL to begin with.

Despite all these issues, Seattle has had the best run game in the NFL over the past 4 years. I'm hardly a Tom Cable apologist but he has delivered a very good running game. That's why Pete brought him here.

Click to expand...

I get what you are saying but we just brought in a offensive lineman that was injured last year and he is way older than Unger was when we traded him. I am also not willing to accept that there aren't good offensive linemen available after the 15th pick, we just got an excellent prospect at 29. Let me put it this way, who would you rather have at center, Justin Britt or Unger? AND who you you rather have at LT, Gilliam or Okung?

To further Kearly's point, go back and find who you wish the Hawks would have taken. There have been a handful of decent OL guys drafted late first/early second but nobody that makes you think what the hell were they thinking?

kearly · Aug 7, 2016

dogorama":3hug0kj9 said:
I get what you are saying but we just brought in a offensive lineman that was injured last year and he is way older than Unger was when we traded him. I am also not willing to accept that there aren't good offensive linemen available after the 15th pick, we just got an excellent prospect at 29. Let me put it this way, who would you rather have at center, Justin Britt or Unger? AND who you you rather have at LT, Gilliam or Okung?

Evans isn't making nearly the money that Unger was, and won't be relied on as heavily. He has been very durable for his career other than last season. And let's face it, Seattle is a bit desperate for experience right now.

dogorama":3hug0kj9 said:
I get what you are saying but we just brought in a offensive lineman that was injured last year and he is way older than Unger was when we traded him. I am also not willing to accept that there aren't good offensive linemen available after the 15th pick, we just got an excellent prospect at 29. Let me put it this way, who would you rather have at center, Justin Britt or Unger? AND who you you rather have at LT, Gilliam or Okung?

The odds of getting a good OL when not picking early is possible but the chances are remote. If you'd like I can list all of the OL drafted after our 1st rounder each of those two years and you'll quickly see how long those odds get.

Ifedi was a great pick, but just go and look at the last 15 drafts and you'll quickly see that you won't find a ton of awesome OL in that late 1st range. Maybe 30% ever become pro-bowlers? It's not a great percentage and it's pretty easy to whiff.

dogorama · Aug 7, 2016

EverydayImRusselin":uzd99ksz said:
To further Kearly's point, go back and find who you wish the Hawks would have taken. There have been a handful of decent OL guys drafted late first/early second but nobody that makes you think what the hell were they thinking?

Joel Bittonio, pick #35, 2014 all-rookie team

Donovan Smith, pick #34, 2015 all-rookie team

These may or not blossom into all-pros but they started all 16 games and were good enough to be on the all-rookie teams. When is the last time the Seahawks had an offensive lineman on the all-rookie team?

kearly · Aug 7, 2016

dogorama":3gnx9yex said:
EverydayImRusselin":3gnx9yex said:

To further Kearly's point, go back and find who you wish the Hawks would have taken. There have been a handful of decent OL guys drafted late first/early second but nobody that makes you think what the hell were they thinking?

Click to expand...

Joel Bittonio, pick #35, 2014 all-rookie team

Donovan Smith, pick #34, 2015 all-rookie team

These may or not blossom into all-pros but they started all 16 games and were good enough to be on the all-rookie teams. When is the last time the Seahawks had an offensive lineman on the all-rookie team?

All rookie-team isn't saying much for OL, since the bar for rookie OL is set extremely low. It's like being the best hitting backup catcher in baseball.

Bitonio is a good player. I was floored when Seattle passed on him. He wasn't in the 2013 or 2015 drafts though, so it's not like Graham or Harvin cost us Bitonio.

With OL it's not like everyone can be the Dallas Cowboys and spend 4 early-to-mid first round picks on studs and take a sum of the parts approach. Most OL are lucky to have 1-2 good players, the rest of the offensive line group tends to be pretty bad, relying on chemistry and cohesion to hide the warts. That's what Seattle is attempting to do. They've made some mistakes along the way but as previously pointed out, lack of investment has not been an issue. Or do you seriously expect Seattle to trade up in the 1st round for a stud OL every year? (Not that I would complain, but I don't find that type of thinking to be realistic).

kearly · Aug 7, 2016

dogorama":12pv6ycx said:
Okay, I love your guys optimism, wish I felt the same way. I still think trading first round picks however, is a mistake.

It only feels that way because Seattle got unlucky with Harvin and Graham. Late 1st round picks are immensely over-valued. Just look at Seattle's own draft history in that range, it's terrible.

dogorama · Aug 7, 2016

kearly":2mav80fh said:
Seattle hasn't skimped on the OL btw. They've drafted three lineman in the first round since 2011,

Not trying to pick you apart but we have drafted one OL in the first round since 2011 and that was James Carpenter in the 2011 draft.

kearly · Aug 7, 2016

Adding to Hawk46's points, Tom Cable has actually over-achieved with some aspects of his job. For example, he turned JR Sweezy from a 7th round pick into a regular, durable starter who signed a fairly big contract when leaving town. Mark Glowinsky was a 4th round pick who seems to be well on his way to becoming a dependable starter. Garry Gilliam may or may not ever be a great tackle, but he looks like the kind of guy that will have a long NFL career in some sort of role, and he was a UDFA. Breno turned into a nice player for us, and Cable got him off the scrap heap. Patrick Lewis has been a good backup center, and he was also a scrap heap guy.

We also forget that Tom Cable's OL was pretty good in 2011 and 2012. Okung and Unger were pro-bowlers and Sweezy and Breno were difference makers at that time. Injuries did a serious number on us from 2013-2015 coupled with a few head scratching talent evaluation decisions all compounding together. He's made his mistakes, and how he's hit the reset button to start over. But he's built good OL's before and he's overseen some solid OL play in Seattle in the past. Let's see how it goes before we gnash our teeth.

kearly · Aug 7, 2016

dogorama":228xikjr said:
kearly":228xikjr said:

Seattle hasn't skimped on the OL btw. They've drafted three lineman in the first round since 2011,

Click to expand...

Not trying to pick you apart but we have drafted one OL in the first round since 2011 and that was James Carpenter.

Meant to say 2010. Okung, Carp, Ifedi.

dogorama · Aug 7, 2016

kearly":3g3nmjsj said:
Adding to Hawk46's points, Tom Cable has actually over-achieved with some aspects of his job. For example, he turned JR Sweezy from a 7th round pick into a regular, durable starter who signed a fairly big contract when leaving town. Mark Glowinsky was a 4th round pick who seems to be well on his way to becoming a dependable starter. Garry Gilliam may or may not ever be a great tackle, but he looks like the kind of guy that will have a long NFL career in some sort of role, and he was a UDFA. Breno turned into a nice player for us, and Cable got him off the scrap heap. Patrick Lewis has been a good backup center, and he was also a scrap heap guy.

We also forget that Tom Cable's OL was very good in 2011 and 2012. Injuries did a serious number on us from 2013-2015 coupled with a few head scratching talent evaluation decisions all compounding together. He's made his mistakes, and how he's hit the reset button to start over. Let's see how it goes before we gnash our teeth.

So, you are making my point, in 2011-2012 we had two-first rounders and second-rounder Unger on those lines.

chris98251 · Aug 7, 2016

There is another edge to the knife your cutting with, we have traded down most of our drafts save for Okung and Thomas, trading down brings more picks, less cost per player which has created a depth at more positions, being able to evaluate talent that can be coached up has been a key to our organization. We chose O line as the most replaceable aspect of the team, being a run first team means coaching simplicity, we coach zone blocking and don't seem to worry much about pass protection, we use the shot gun a lot also. Holmgren was pretty much the opposite wanting really good lineman and drafting high, our defense suffered due to this and we were able to be bullied by defenses and aggressive offenses. I would say Holmgren built teams that thrived in the Regular season, Pete built teams that thrive in post season. Both teams were good but the old adage that defense wins championships still holds true along with ball control which is our running game.

kearly · Aug 7, 2016

dogorama":cn2p2ds8 said:
So, you are making my point, in 2011-2012 we had two-first rounders and second-rounder Unger on those lines.

There's a 1st rounder and 2nd rounder on the current line, FWIW. Same thing was true last year as well.

It's not really about how early you draft these guys, unless you go crazy like the Cowboys did. It's about finding the right guys for your system and hoping to get a little lucky. Alex Gibbs was Tom Cable's mentor, and he routinely built elite OL with late round picks and UDFAs. He bragged that he could make a garbage man into an NFL O-lineman.

Maybe it's because I follow the draft very closely, but I learned a long time ago that the draft isn't some kind of candy store where you can just spend first round draft picks to fix a problem. The Raiders spent a high draft pick on JaMarcuss Russell. Did that fix their QB problem? It's all about finding the right guys in the right spots, and sometimes that means waiting until later in the draft, like Seattle did for Russell Wilson.

That said, Seattle did pass on a few OL in the draft the past couple years that had me scratching my head and wondering why they didn't pull the trigger. I'm not the biggest fan of our organizations scouting ability for OL, though I did really like the Ifedi pick a lot.

dogorama · Aug 7, 2016

chris98251":17qzt2hq said:
There is another edge to the knife your cutting with, we have traded down most of our drafts save for Okung and Thomas, trading down brings more picks, less cost per player which has created a depth at more positions, being able to evaluate talent that can be coached up has been a key to our organization. We chose O line as the most replaceable aspect of the team, being a run first team means coaching simplicity, we coach zone blocking and don't seem to worry much about pass protection, we use the shot gun a lot also. Holmgren was pretty much the opposite wanting really good lineman and drafting high, our defense suffered due to this and we were able to be bullied by defenses and aggressive offenses. I would say Holmgren built teams that thrived in the Regular season, Pete built teams that thrive in post season. Both teams were good but the old adage that defense wins championships still holds true along with ball control which is our running game.

I can't disagree w/much of what you say except to say that you are referencing the things that have worked, at least up to this point, but ignoring the first-round trades which did not.

My point about the imaginary line we could have had is probably fantasy, but I think you have to find a point in between those extremes where you don't completely abandon the O-line and, to a certain extent, that is what they have done.

Edit: I guess what I am trying to say is somewhere along the line we got un-balanced and it has come back to haunt us. When we won in '13 we were regarded as a very balanced team. Now, as kearly referenced, Arizona has built a very balanced team and a large part of that is they have built a better O-line to go along w/their other parts. They have caught up w/us.

Fade · Aug 7, 2016

The O-Line will be fine as long as the Center position is stabilized.

Ifedi looks great
Glow looks great
Now the other 3 just have to be serviceable, and you have a middle of the pack O-Line.
Jahri can be serviceable, with a chance to be just above average.
Lewis has proven to be.
Gilliam should, but is the biggest question mark.

The last time Seattle had a line this good was in 2012 when Okung, and Unger each had their best seasons. The other 3 guys were serviceable (Carp, Sweezy, & Breno). Seattle's O-Line ranked middle of the pack that year. All other seasons Cable's lines have been terrible and ranked near the bottom of the league.

What Happened to our Offensive Line?

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