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Hitting the Weights with Cassius Marsh

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Hitting the Weights with Cassius Marsh
Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:02 pm
  • Give me some damn skittles...
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  • Dig them tats man!
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  • I hate it when guys stand around and talk in the weight room.
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  • Bench press is a very overrated lift for most positions in football.

    Lower body and core is where it's at.
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  • Mark Bell is a pretty well known powerlifter. Some good advice there but hopefully Marsh strengthens up on his other compound lifts which will hopefully translate into helping his quickness and power game.
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Re: Hitting the Weights with Cassius Marsh
Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:49 pm
  • jdemps wrote:I hate it when guys stand around and talk in the weight room.



    I am skinny, but I think the same thing. Those weights dont lift themselves!

    I really envy these Cassius' his natural size and physical gifts.

    My workouts are about 45 minutes with 40 seconds between sets. From 10 to fifteen different exercises.


    I am 45 and did something to my neck. That means I need to figure out which one was the culprit a chill a minute.
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  • Interesting video -- thanks for posting.

    I now know my bench technique is disgustingly awful too.
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  • I disagree that the bench or pressing strength in general is overrated in football. Depending on your position its definitely transferable for guys in the trenches who work in a similar plane. Thanks for sharing.
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  • austinslater25 wrote:I disagree that the bench or pressing strength in general is overrated in football. Depending on your position its definitely transferable for guys in the trenches who work in a similar plane. Thanks for sharing.


    Bench Press is definitely useful, but i think the people downplaying it are referring to the players who can bench the most have the most "football" strength.

    Dave Wyman every once in a while explains how he could always bench more than Tez during his playing years.
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  • Agreed but Tez was gifted in other areas to make up for a lack of pressing strength. Kind of a tool in the toolbelt sort of scenario if that makes sense.

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  • Basis4day wrote:
    austinslater25 wrote:I disagree that the bench or pressing strength in general is overrated in football. Depending on your position its definitely transferable for guys in the trenches who work in a similar plane. Thanks for sharing.


    Bench Press is definitely useful, but i think the people downplaying it are referring to the players who can bench the most have the most "football" strength.

    Dave Wyman every once in a while explains how he could always bench more than Tez during his playing years.

    Tez was loaded with functional core strength.
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  • theENGLISHseahawk wrote:Interesting video -- thanks for posting.

    I now know my bench technique is disgustingly awful too.


    Lol I was just going to say the same thing. I've been doing 3 things wrong the entire time. No wonder my shoulders hurt.

    Holy sh!t. We just learned something from the internet English !
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  • Hawks46 wrote:
    theENGLISHseahawk wrote:Interesting video -- thanks for posting.

    I now know my bench technique is disgustingly awful too.


    Lol I was just going to say the same thing. I've been doing 3 things wrong the entire time. No wonder my shoulders hurt.

    Holy sh!t. We just learned something from the internet English !


    :thirishdrinkers:
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Re: Hitting the Weights with Cassius Marsh
Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:03 pm
  • bjornanderson21 wrote:Bench press is a very overrated lift for most positions in football.

    Lower body and core is where it's at.


    Bench pressing is the most effective and efficient way to develop strength in the upper body. Football is the most applicable major sport where the movement itself directly applies to real player movements when you're blocking or pressing. When your point of contact with another player is your hands and arms, you have to make your upper body as strong as possible to finish the kinetic chain from your feet through the rest of your body.

    Bench pressing isn't overrated, but it is a problem when athletes and even regular people prioritize it over squatting. It's also a path to shoulder injuries for most if done increasingly heavy without overhead pressing to strengthen the parts of the shoulder bench pressing doesn't stress enough.

    Bench pressing may have ruined gyms with the onset of bromania, but that doesn't devalue the importance of the lift for elite football athletes or general strength trainees.
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  • vin.couve12 wrote:
    Basis4day wrote:
    austinslater25 wrote:I disagree that the bench or pressing strength in general is overrated in football. Depending on your position its definitely transferable for guys in the trenches who work in a similar plane. Thanks for sharing.


    Bench Press is definitely useful, but i think the people downplaying it are referring to the players who can bench the most have the most "football" strength.

    Dave Wyman every once in a while explains how he could always bench more than Tez during his playing years.

    Tez was loaded with functional core strength.


    Tez wasn't much of Gym Rat. He had his own, unique, solitary-but-regimented workout that he did after the rest of the players were done. The 'out of sight, out of mind' nature of his workouts is probably what led the Behring family to label him as 'lazy,' which couldn't have been further from the truth. Ditto on the core strength. Dude was a beast.
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  • Most NFL players are such ridiculously amazing physical specimens that you could do all kinds of silly things and they would still have significant strength adaptation.

    The "functional" and "core strength" ideas that have reared their heads are mostly a cop-out by people who don't want to lift maximal weights to drive adaptation. A NFL lineman who can squat and deadlift over 700 pounds is going to have more "core strength" than he would if he was doing "core" training. And most of these guys can power clean a lot of weight, which is an expression of their strength and their elite athletic power recruitment.
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Re: Hitting the Weights with Cassius Marsh
Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:59 pm
  • bmorepunk wrote:Most NFL players are such ridiculously amazing physical specimens that you could do all kinds of silly things and they would still have significant strength adaptation.

    The "functional" and "core strength" ideas that have reared their heads are mostly a cop-out by people who don't want to lift maximal weights to drive adaptation. A NFL lineman who can squat and deadlift over 700 pounds is going to have more "core strength" than he would if he was doing "core" training. And most of these guys can power clean a lot of weight, which is an expression of their strength and their elite athletic power recruitment.

    So the best DT to ever wear a hawk uni was one big 'copout?' Thanks for enlightening us all with that tripe.

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  • Sadly a lot of NFL teams have terrible strength and conditioning coaches but it gets masked because they are such good athletes. Bill Gillespie who was the long time strength coach at UW and short time for the Seahawks is one of the best in the country. Wish we still had him on staff.
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Re: Hitting the Weights with Cassius Marsh
Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:49 am
  • Hawks46 wrote:
    theENGLISHseahawk wrote:Interesting video -- thanks for posting.

    I now know my bench technique is disgustingly awful too.


    Lol I was just going to say the same thing. I've been doing 3 things wrong the entire time. No wonder my shoulders hurt.

    Holy sh!t. We just learned something from the internet English !


    Yeah, me too! I figured out that I haven't been doing them...at all. :1:
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Re: Hitting the Weights with Cassius Marsh
Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:47 am
  • bmorepunk wrote:Most NFL players are such ridiculously amazing physical specimens that you could do all kinds of silly things and they would still have significant strength adaptation.

    The "functional" and "core strength" ideas that have reared their heads are mostly a cop-out by people who don't want to lift maximal weights to drive adaptation. A NFL lineman who can squat and deadlift over 700 pounds is going to have more "core strength" than he would if he was doing "core" training. And most of these guys can power clean a lot of weight, which is an expression of their strength and their elite athletic power recruitment.

    When I say functional core strength I'm talking about generating power outside of the framework of a lift. It is one thing to be able to put your body into a specific alignment to lift a lot of weight, but that's not the reality of football. The term "functional" in regards to football is the ability to bend, contort, straff down the LOS with muscle and tendon flexibility (which is often lost by pure lifters) and still generate a lot of power. I always found that when I played I had to balance lifting, flexibility, and more functional exercises lest you become too stiff and non-functional for actual gameplay.

    Billings is a good example. I find that his ability to keep his shoulders square WHILE playing down the LOS laterally is kind of unique for bigtime weight lifters. Most of the time that is lost and you find them turning their body to go own the LOS vs keeping square with a good base and flexibility (like Mebane).

    Functional football strength is absolutely a real thing and an extremely important one. Generally it relates to functional core strength. Some of the best football players aren't benchers or squatters and if you put on a film you'd think they're a lot stronger than they'd test at lifting. I.E. functional...

    Sometimes I think Madden has damaged the game. Or at least how people view prospects anyway. Same with the combine. When I was young I used to squat twice a week with my FB who also played DE. My vert went up, weight went up, etc, but I also found that I wasn't as quick (slow twitch vs fast twitch) and lost flexibility. I used to think silly and manly things too....don't squat high weight twice a week. Your knees won't like it when you get older. Keep it to once a week, stay flexible, and don't do cardio on machines. That's still inside of a specific framework and is a non-functional exercise.
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  • HawKnPeppa wrote:
    bmorepunk wrote:Most NFL players are such ridiculously amazing physical specimens that you could do all kinds of silly things and they would still have significant strength adaptation.

    The "functional" and "core strength" ideas that have reared their heads are mostly a cop-out by people who don't want to lift maximal weights to drive adaptation. A NFL lineman who can squat and deadlift over 700 pounds is going to have more "core strength" than he would if he was doing "core" training. And most of these guys can power clean a lot of weight, which is an expression of their strength and their elite athletic power recruitment.

    So the best DT to ever wear a hawk uni was one big 'copout?' Thanks for enlightening us all with that tripe.

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    I wasn't talking about Tez's training, because I have no idea what the dude was doing. But since he's so genetically special he could probably have done just about anything that induced a little stress in his system and he would adapt to it.

    austinslater25 wrote:Sadly a lot of NFL teams have terrible strength and conditioning coaches but it gets masked because they are such good athletes. Bill Gillespie who was the long time strength coach at UW and short time for the Seahawks is one of the best in the country. Wish we still had him on staff.


    The best S&C coaches are the ones that can take any population and get significant improvement out of them. Elite athletes will often adapt pretty effectively to sub-optimal training, but the next tier down of athletes will show how good the coach is. NFL S&C coaches and big school NCAA coaches have a huge margin for error because the population they get is so gifted.

    vin.couve12 wrote:
    bmorepunk wrote:Most NFL players are such ridiculously amazing physical specimens that you could do all kinds of silly things and they would still have significant strength adaptation.

    The "functional" and "core strength" ideas that have reared their heads are mostly a cop-out by people who don't want to lift maximal weights to drive adaptation. A NFL lineman who can squat and deadlift over 700 pounds is going to have more "core strength" than he would if he was doing "core" training. And most of these guys can power clean a lot of weight, which is an expression of their strength and their elite athletic power recruitment.

    When I say functional core strength I'm talking about generating power outside of the framework of a lift. It is one thing to be able to put your body into a specific alignment to lift a lot of weight, but that's not the reality of football. The term "functional" in regards to football is the ability to bend, contort, straff down the LOS with muscle and tendon flexibility (which is often lost by pure lifters) and still generate a lot of power. I always found that when I played I had to balance lifting, flexibility, and more functional exercises lest you become too stiff and non-functional for actual gameplay.

    Billings is a good example. I find that his ability to keep his shoulders square WHILE playing down the LOS laterally is kind of unique for bigtime weight lifters. Most of the time that is lost and you find them turning their body to go own the LOS vs keeping square with a good base and flexibility (like Mebane).

    Functional football strength is absolutely a real thing and an extremely important one. Generally it relates to functional core strength. Some of the best football players aren't benchers or squatters and if you put on a film you'd think they're a lot stronger than they'd test at lifting. I.E. functional...

    Sometimes I think Madden has damaged the game. Or at least how people view prospects anyway. Same with the combine. When I was young I used to squat twice a week with my FB who also played DE. My vert went up, weight went up, etc, but I also found that I wasn't as quick (slow twitch vs fast twitch) and lost flexibility. I used to think silly and manly things too....don't squat high weight twice a week. Your knees won't like it when you get older. Keep it to once a week, stay flexible, and don't do cardio on machines. That's still inside of a specific framework and is a non-functional exercise.


    Once you make it past the novice stage of lifting, which most college players are out of, you shouldn't be working heavy squats more than once a week. There's many different intermediate and advanced strength programs, and unless it's a hardcore short cycle you don't do any particular major lift more than once a week, particularly deadlifts. The volume really needs to be controlled properly for lifters are these stages through a week, month, or longer to drive low-volume, high-intensity maxes.

    Knees shouldn't be getting damaged in squats if done to parallel. Knee injuries occur commonly because lifters don't go deep enough and don't get the hamstrings balancing out their quads. This results in terrible shear forces across the knees. People can squat with torn ligaments with no issues if done so properly, but they may need a knowledgable coach to do it right.

    When you were doing squats, what was your programming?
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Re: Hitting the Weights with Cassius Marsh
Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:41 pm
  • There's more to it than that. Essentially you're not allowing even some of the muscle and cartilage ample time for healing some of the tearing from lifting and layering scar tissue if you're not careful. We used to start with a plate and add plate until we couldn't go anymore in sets of 10 twice a week...didn't know any better and just listened to our unqualified coaches. It was the early 90s and there was even a lot of steroid use in the locker room. Some cocaine use even. I remember a friend of mine who was our tackle was 6'8 360 pounds (RIP) had to have some jojos before every game and subsequently usually had to take a dump just before the game, but that's neither here nor there (just reminiscing since I'm there)...

    If you need an example of functional core strength though, watch a vs tape of Billings vs Knemdiche. I guarantee you Billings can lift more weight, but as strong as he can be on the football field he'll never be able to take on a double team the way Knemdiche can or show the raw explosive power that he does. He just isn't as functionally strong in full range of body movement.
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Re: Hitting the Weights with Cassius Marsh
Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:32 am
  • austinslater25 wrote:Sadly a lot of NFL teams have terrible strength and conditioning coaches but it gets masked because they are such good athletes. Bill Gillespie who was the long time strength coach at UW and short time for the Seahawks is one of the best in the country. Wish we still had him on staff.


    How could you possibly know that?
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  • vin.couve12 wrote:There's more to it than that. Essentially you're not allowing even some of the muscle and cartilage ample time for healing some of the tearing from lifting and layering scar tissue if you're not careful. We used to start with a plate and add plate until we couldn't go anymore in sets of 10 twice a week...didn't know any better and just listened to our unqualified coaches. It was the early 90s and there was even a lot of steroid use in the locker room. Some cocaine use even. I remember a friend of mine who was our tackle was 6'8 360 pounds (RIP) had to have some jojos before every game and subsequently usually had to take a dump just before the game, but that's neither here nor there (just reminiscing since I'm there)...

    If you need an example of functional core strength though, watch a vs tape of Billings vs Knemdiche. I guarantee you Billings can lift more weight, but as strong as he can be on the football field he'll never be able to take on a double team the way Knemdiche can or show the raw explosive power that he does. He just isn't as functionally strong in full range of body movement.


    That's not good programming, but it's pretty common for football players. Too much volume and not enough time to recover, especially since football players are doing an immense amount of actual physical work outside the weight room. Recovery is the most important part of lifting; you're right in that recovery from this kind of programming is impossible over a long period of time. Proper programming and recovery would strengthen connective tissue and increase bone density, but in this case neither of those things are happening.

    Most coaches depend on sets of 10 with football. When you have skinny kids who you don't want being pushed around, this kind of makes sense. But when you have big athletes sets of 10 are sub-optimal for strength development.

    I'm not stating that the strongest players are the best. You can only coach a player so much with their technique, and power is what it is. Strength is the basis for the expression of that power, but you can only win so much against your bodyweight. If you take the same 200 lb individual who can squat either 200 lbs or 400 lbs, the 400 lb squat version will be able to generate more power. The limitation is whether their bodyweight, which must increase to increase their strength within reason, starts to become an issue.
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  • Smellyman wrote:
    austinslater25 wrote:Sadly a lot of NFL teams have terrible strength and conditioning coaches but it gets masked because they are such good athletes. Bill Gillespie who was the long time strength coach at UW and short time for the Seahawks is one of the best in the country. Wish we still had him on staff.


    How could you possibly know that?


    It's a common complaint by respected strength coaches. Here's an example of what they're not impressed with:

    After all of the neck exercises are completed you will move to the hips and legs.
    We have a well-equipped facility and will incorporate a wide range of variety in our
    routines. A sample Texans leg routine will include the following exercises:
    1. Leg Press or Squat
    2. Leg Curl
    3. Hip Extension
    4. Leg Press or Squat
    5. Leg Extension
    6. Leg Press or Squat
    7. Adduction
    8. Hip Flexion
    9. Calf Raises (Straight-Leg & Bent-Leg)


    http://tomhayden3.com/data/texans_fitness.pdf

    Leg presses aren't squats. Instead of coaching their players to squat properly as a rule, they apparently allow them to train their body in sections instead of a whole system. Great for bodybuilders, not so great for athletes. But once again, elite athletes' genetic profile allows them to respond to this sort of thing so the coaches don't have to be top-level strength coaches to be reasonably successful.
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  • Smellyman wrote:
    austinslater25 wrote:Sadly a lot of NFL teams have terrible strength and conditioning coaches but it gets masked because they are such good athletes. Bill Gillespie who was the long time strength coach at UW and short time for the Seahawks is one of the best in the country. Wish we still had him on staff.


    How could you possibly know that?


    I know some people who have been involved at various places personally and through mutual friends from years of competitive powerlifting. Other teams release their S&C philosophies so are easily reviewed. I believe the Seahawks have a good staff in this regard but I'm not real familiar with their current coach so not really sure. The problem start at the college level as some schools are very good and some are terrible.
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  • Smellyman wrote:Image


    Image
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  • Smellyman wrote:Image


    So we can't know what we're talking about? Good discussion lol.
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  • Austin, are you a PLer?
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  • I was. Quit about 12 years ago because of injuries and starting a family. Still train and stay connected with my buddies though and help out with coaching. Body is a little beat up to compete so mostly trying to stay in shape so my kids don't think I'm old.
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  • bmorepunk wrote:
    Smellyman wrote:
    austinslater25 wrote:Sadly a lot of NFL teams have terrible strength and conditioning coaches but it gets masked because they are such good athletes. Bill Gillespie who was the long time strength coach at UW and short time for the Seahawks is one of the best in the country. Wish we still had him on staff.


    How could you possibly know that?


    It's a common complaint by respected strength coaches. Here's an example of what they're not impressed with:

    After all of the neck exercises are completed you will move to the hips and legs.
    We have a well-equipped facility and will incorporate a wide range of variety in our
    routines. A sample Texans leg routine will include the following exercises:
    1. Leg Press or Squat
    2. Leg Curl
    3. Hip Extension
    4. Leg Press or Squat
    5. Leg Extension
    6. Leg Press or Squat
    7. Adduction
    8. Hip Flexion
    9. Calf Raises (Straight-Leg & Bent-Leg)


    http://tomhayden3.com/data/texans_fitness.pdf

    Leg presses aren't squats. Instead of coaching their players to squat properly as a rule, they apparently allow them to train their body in sections instead of a whole system. Great for bodybuilders, not so great for athletes. But once again, elite athletes' genetic profile allows them to respond to this sort of thing so the coaches don't have to be top-level strength coaches to be reasonably successful.


    Definitely. Although still very misguided in our lifting, I always had a bigtime belief in free weights for strengthening stabilizer muscles along with the muscle groups you're trying to target. I almost can't believe that's suggested in an actual NFL organization.
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