Are we West Coast Offense?

rcaido

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Im a bit confuse over this, the way Seattle plays it doesn't seem like we are a true West Coast Offense. I was told the reason why Wilson has good stats is because the WCO style helps him gets easy passes. Reason why Newton doesn't have as good stats as Wilson.

It just seems Wilson has to work more to get those "easy" passes.
 

mrt144

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No. We run slants as often as trick plays.


Edit: This wasn't quite a serious answer.
 

Popeyejones

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rcaido":2rs2oxr7 said:
Im a bit confuse over this, the way Seattle plays it doesn't seem like we are a true West Coast Offense. I was told the reason why Wilson has good stats is because the WCO style helps him gets easy passes. Reason why Newton doesn't have as good stats as Wilson.

It just seems Wilson has to work more to get those "easy" passes.

There's a hornets nest in this question. :lol:

Every NFL team runs passing concepts that originated with the WCO, and the Hawks are no different than anyone else in that regard.

The problems are 1) the WCO changed over the years so there's not really a "pure" WCO to reference to, and 2) nobody in the NFL is really just running a collection of plays out of all the variants of the WCO.

As for Wilson, more so than the Panthers the Seahawks rely on 0 and 1 read gadget passes which makes Wilson's life a little bit easier. To be clear every team runs these plays, but they're probably a bigger part of the Seahawks' offense than they are the Panthers' offense. The way to think about this is that in the Hawks offense Wilson has more 0 and 1 read pass plays where his primary read is on a short to intermediate routes, and that in the Panthers offense Newton has less 0 read plays and more primary read plays on intermediate to deep routes. They both obviously have both, but it's really about where each teams offense falls in the balance on those things.


I'd need to watch more closely but I've always been curious why I don't see the Hawks running more (or any?) option plays (meaning, run/pass option gadget plays) as they are really in the wheelhouse of the type of stuff the Seahawks like to do.
 

mrt144

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Popeyejones":1lj7fjum said:
I'd need to watch more closely but I've always been curious why I don't see the Hawks running more (or any?) option plays (meaning, run/pass option gadget plays) as they are really in the wheelhouse of the type of stuff the Seahawks like to do.


I believe it was the first game of last season against the Packers where the Seahawks basically copied an Auburn read option pass play for a big gain. It was beautiful as hell and I think only was tried one more time the rest of the season.
 

Popeyejones

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mrt144":3i8e3033 said:
Popeyejones":3i8e3033 said:
I'd need to watch more closely but I've always been curious why I don't see the Hawks running more (or any?) option plays (meaning, run/pass option gadget plays) as they are really in the wheelhouse of the type of stuff the Seahawks like to do.


I believe it was the first game of last season against the Packers where the Seahawks basically copied an Auburn read option pass play for a big gain. It was beautiful as hell and I think only was tried one more time the rest of the season.

Ah, thanks.

Yeah, totally weird to me that they're not doing it more, as it really fits nicely with everything else they do.
 

mrt144

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trickyhawks.0.gif
 

Popeyejones

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You gotta not run it much to get away with it like they did there, but LOL, yeah, I see why you remember it. :th2thumbs:
 

firebee

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rcaido":8wcp1avz said:
Im a bit confuse over this, the way Seattle plays it doesn't seem like we are a true West Coast Offense. I was told the reason why Wilson has good stats is because the WCO style helps him gets easy passes. Reason why Newton doesn't have as good stats as Wilson.

It just seems Wilson has to work more to get those "easy" passes.

No... We are far from a WCO... The WCO is a possession short passing game that has lots of shallow to mid crossing routes, timing routes, slants, etc. We run more of a homerun-checkdown offense. Most of our passing plays have our receivers and TE going deep with an outlet or two that leak into a short zone if the deep threats can't create separation. Because we run homerun-checkdown passing plays, that's why we need an established running game to work the play-action off of. It helps get the safeties up in the box, so the receivers can take the top off the defense. If we're running a WCO, it's the most poorly designed WCO I've ever seen.

Not to mention... The 2 back backfield is a staple of the WCO, which we hardly use. The WCO usually has the QB on Center, not shotgun. We're definitely not running the WCO.
 

TDOTSEAHAWK

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Absolutely not even close.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_offense

Just read up on it a bit. While there are certainly Bill Walsh concepts, such as the aspects passing tree and QB read progressions, the prevailing West Coast Offense philosophy was using the short passing game to open up the running game. It was a pass-first philosophy which bucked the overriding philosophy of the time of establishing the running game and depended on strict timing in the passing game. It also never used the shotgun in it's most pure form.

Conversely, we use the run to set up the play-action pass, almost never use pure timing routes and have a very vertical passing game while almost never using the first 15 yards of the field - aside from bubble screens. We also use the shotgun often, something pure West Coast guys never used as there was no ability to develop timing from the gun.

If anyone remembers Holmgren's offense, Hass would basically take his 5 step drop and throw. When the play worked - the offense looked beautiful but when the defense had the jump - we almost looked helpless and predictable.

As for some notion that Wilson is helped by the WCO while Cam Newton is hurt because he doesn't use it is pure nonsense but I wouldn't bother arguing with anyone that uses such an argument because they don't know football well and are likely not rational beings. Wilson is a better QB than Cam because he is better under pressure, is more accurate and a better student of the game.
 

sutz

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Holmgren ran what was probably the closest form of the original WCO in the modern era. When clicking, it is virtually unstoppable, but most defenses know how to counter it in the modern era. Yes, virtually every team uses 'elements' of the WCO in their schemes, but most are far from pure examples of it.

The big part of it is that Seattle doesn't use a lot of the quick timing passes that are a staple of the WCO. Under Walsh and Holmgren, many of those short passes were basically long hand-offs to RBs and TEs.

Anyway, others have explained it better than I can.

:)
 

Clayfighter

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TDOTSEAHAWK":24nni04g said:
Absolutely not even close.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_offense

Just read up on it a bit. While there are certainly Bill Walsh concepts, such as the aspects passing tree and QB read progressions, the prevailing West Coast Offense philosophy was using the short passing game to open up the running game. It was a pass-first philosophy which bucked the overriding philosophy of the time of establishing the running game and depended on strict timing in the passing game. It also never used the shotgun in it's most pure form.

Conversely, we use the run to set up the play-action pass, almost never use pure timing routes and have a very vertical passing game while almost never using the first 15 yards of the field - aside from bubble screens. We also use the shotgun often, something pure West Coast guys never used as there was no ability to develop timing from the gun.

If anyone remembers Holmgren's offense, Hass would basically take his 5 step drop and throw. When the play worked - the offense looked beautiful but when the defense had the jump - we almost looked helpless and predictable.

As for some notion that Wilson is helped by the WCO while Cam Newton is hurt because he doesn't use it is pure nonsense but I wouldn't bother arguing with anyone that uses such an argument because they don't know football well and are likely not rational beings. Wilson is a better QB than Cam because he is better under pressure, is more accurate and a better student of the game.

Great post. Thanks.
 

Basis4day

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sutz":2tx4v5cn said:
Holmgren ran what was probably the closest form of the original WCO in the modern era. When clicking, it is virtually unstoppable, but most defenses know how to counter it in the modern era. Yes, virtually every team uses 'elements' of the WCO in their schemes, but most are far from pure examples of it.

The big part of it is that Seattle doesn't use a lot of the quick timing passes that are a staple of the WCO. Under Walsh and Holmgren, many of those short passes were basically long hand-offs to RBs and TEs.

Anyway, others have explained it better than I can.

:)

The part is red is as good as you can put it.
 

HomerJHawk

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This is why I heart .NET.

Every once in a while threads like this pop up. Straight talk,
no BS, and I learn stuff. Thanks y'all.

Go Hawks
 

Jazzhawk

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Its now a hybrid WCO, using the WCO terminology (per some interviews I heard this year with players and coaches), but meshing a power run game within those concepts. So,really more of a NWCO, North West Coast Offense.
 

Fade

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it's a blend of the Shanahan WCO w/ZBS via Tom Cable, and what Pete Carroll picked up when he was in SF. The other side is Darrell Bevell is from the Andy Reid / Brad Childress school of the WCO.

The Seahawks playbook is WCO terminology, but no one runs pure WCO anymore.


Site RW's YPA. and laugh at anyone who tries to claim he is a check down artist.
 

firebee

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If I was going to identify our offense, I think it would be identified as a Spread Option Air Coryell offense. We use a lot of spread option formations and the zone blocking schemes for the run game, but a lot of the philosophy behind our passing game is based off the Air Coryell offensive philosophy. An Air Coryell offense runs a lot of the downfield vertical routes, post routes and seam routes by the WRs and TEs with a receiving back that can leak out as an outlet. Air Coryell is also the offense that Walsh morphed into the WCO, so some of the terminology is the same, but they use entirely different philosophies and schemes in the passing game.
 

Russ Willstrong

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firebee":ssjjeomh said:
If I was going to identify our offense, I think it would be identified as a Spread Option Air Coryell offense. We use a lot of spread option formations and the zone blocking schemes for the run game, but a lot of the philosophy behind our passing game is based off the Air Coryell offensive philosophy. An Air Coryell offense runs a lot of the downfield vertical routes, post routes and seam routes by the WRs and TEs with a receiving back that can leak out as an outlet. Air Coryell is also the offense that Walsh morphed into the WCO, so some of the terminology is the same, but they use entirely different philosophies and schemes in the passing game.
Interesting take.
The Holmgren offense was definitely more balanced WCO and the Carroll Seahawks morphed into a run first Pro Style offense (from USC) with Lynch. Russell Wilson fit beautifully as he ran a similar Power Run Pro Style at Wisconsin but incorporated deep passing proficiency and slight of hand from his days at NCSU. To make things more interesting Bevell and Wilson have now mastered the zone read. Todays seahawks offense as becoming more hybridized and can only grow from here on out.
 

HawKnPeppa

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firebee":1falgj7a said:
If I was going to identify our offense, I think it would be identified as a Spread Option Air Coryell offense. We use a lot of spread option formations and the zone blocking schemes for the run game, but a lot of the philosophy behind our passing game is based off the Air Coryell offensive philosophy. An Air Coryell offense runs a lot of the downfield vertical routes, post routes and seam routes by the WRs and TEs with a receiving back that can leak out as an outlet. Air Coryell is also the offense that Walsh morphed into the WCO, so some of the terminology is the same, but they use entirely different philosophies and schemes in the passing game.

While we certainly have elements of Air Coryell, I'd put what Pete runs closer to what Shanahan ran in Denver, because of ZBS and emphasis on run-first. Heck, Pete even brought in Alex Gibbs during our first season...wish he would have stayed.
 

Russ Willstrong

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rcaido":y33ejzfg said:
.. I was told the reason why Wilson has good stats is because the WCO style helps him gets easy passes. Reason why Newton doesn't have as good stats as Wilson.

It just seems Wilson has to work more to get those "easy" passes.
Those are lame excuses from likely ignorant detractors. Luck was getting praises when he ran a similar Power O Pro style offense at stanford. Wilson played in a passing offense at NC State before going to Wisconsin.
Now we see Wilson more from the spread and his fans are reminded that he is a natural passer.
It's just that Wilson continues to have many ardent detractors and few followers ever saw him in college.
 

chris98251

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HawKnPeppa":3k2dpirf said:
firebee":3k2dpirf said:
If I was going to identify our offense, I think it would be identified as a Spread Option Air Coryell offense. We use a lot of spread option formations and the zone blocking schemes for the run game, but a lot of the philosophy behind our passing game is based off the Air Coryell offensive philosophy. An Air Coryell offense runs a lot of the downfield vertical routes, post routes and seam routes by the WRs and TEs with a receiving back that can leak out as an outlet. Air Coryell is also the offense that Walsh morphed into the WCO, so some of the terminology is the same, but they use entirely different philosophies and schemes in the passing game.

While we certainly have elements of Air Coryell, I'd put what Pete runs closer to what Shanahan ran in Denver, because of ZBS and emphasis on run-first. Heck, Pete even brought in Alex Gibbs during our first season...wish he would have stayed.

Thinking about it more, this is a lot like Al Davis and Oakland, stretch offense, we don't throw the bombs as much as Lamonica did but more like a Stabler ran Oakland offense with a tough run game possession with Christenson and then shots down field with Branch and a possession receiver with Biletnikoff.

Except our possession guys are Kearse and Baldwin and stretch guys Lockett right now. Graham to be added to the mix and Richardson to add to the speed factor.

Backs were Mark van Eeghen, Marv Hubbard, Pete Banazak, Clarence Davis These are the years that they were the tough Raiders with a nasty defense, all these backs except Davis were Power backs.

This is why I think we resemble this type of offense, not completely, but in control and then the explosive play with both defense the running game and the stretch play for the home run.
 
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