Which loss is more damaging to a team?

The controversy surrounding not giving the ball to Lynch on the one yard line or Cam not diving on the fumble?

I think the interception was more heart breaking but I think Cam's actions may damage the team more (combined a bit with the fact that I don't think Cam is the leader Wilson is to be able to recover from it).

HawkGA":3kw6qzit said:

The controversy surrounding not giving the ball to Lynch on the one yard line or Cam not diving on the fumble?

I think the interception was more heart breaking but I think Cam's actions may damage the team more (combined a bit with the fact that I don't think Cam is the leader Wilson is to be able to recover from it).

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Still think its the play call (even though I don't think it was that bad).

As bad as Cam's business decision was, that game was already pretty much over. That may have been the nail, but let's be honest, the coffin was shut. Plus, it was one man (or whatever you want to call Cam)

I think after the interception in 49, Seahawks players were questioning each other. Seahawks coaches were questioning the players. Player were questioning coaches. The fact that no one knew who to point the finger at. Was it Pete's directive and poor time management? Bevell's play call? Wilson's underthrow? Kearse's non-block? Lockette's effort?

Add to that the shock of it. The sudden finality. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Of course it hurt the team when we lost SB49 but were there really any massive trust issues among the teammates. Lockette looked horrible on the play but the entire team was backing him up and called him a big part of their family. Russ throwing an INT on the last play sucked as well but did it really seem like the players didn't respect him anymore? We had some obvious troubles at the start of the year but we bounced back and are going into the '16 season as one of the big favorites once again.

Cam's credibility on the other hand was severely damaged yesterday. Not even really trying anymore at the end of the game and not taking responsibility after the game will definitely have an impact on the respect he gets from his teammates.

I thought it took us about 10 games, including the pre-season games to get over the manner in which we lost the SB.
Ultimately, we lost the HFA and any chance of coming back this year.

time will tell of course. But the fact that we already had a ring when it happened helped a bit. No doubt that play will haunt us for all of eternity. But atleast as it sits today we atleast have 2013. Panthers players and fans don't and that has got to be gut wrenching too.

McGruff":47llhhuv said:

HawkGA":47llhhuv said:

The controversy surrounding not giving the ball to Lynch on the one yard line or Cam not diving on the fumble?

I think the interception was more heart breaking but I think Cam's actions may damage the team more (combined a bit with the fact that I don't think Cam is the leader Wilson is to be able to recover from it).

Click to expand...

Still think its the play call (even though I don't think it was that bad).

As bad as Cam's business decision was, that game was already pretty much over. That may have been the nail, but let's be honest, the coffin was shut. Plus, it was one man (or whatever you want to call Cam)

I think after the interception in 49, Seahawks players were questioning each other. Seahawks coaches were questioning the players. Player were questioning coaches. The fact that no one knew who to point the finger at. Was it Pete's directive and poor time management? Bevell's play call? Wilson's underthrow? Kearse's non-block? Lockette's effort?

Add to that the shock of it. The sudden finality. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree with most of what you said but the "one man" was the QB. And the QB isn't going anywhere. If we were talking about an offensive lineman or a WR, you'd probably be right. But I think Cam doing it makes it a much bigger deal than you might think.

Bobblehead":1hy7tcmw said:

I thought it took us about 10 games, including the pre-season games to get over the manner in which we lost the SB.
Ultimately, we lost the HFA and any chance of coming back this year.

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It took our coaches 10 games to figure out the defensive backfield needed to lose Cary Williams and it took 10 games for our revamped offensive line to figure out how to keep Wilson from getting killed. Add to that the Kam Chancellor holdout and it spelled out a slow start for the Hawks. That didn't have anything to do with the Super Bowl loss.

I think everyone is jumping on Cam prematurely here. It looked to me like he stepped back because the ball was rolling towards him and his Olineman was diving his direction. And it looked like he wanted to get a better angle to dive on it with his hands. Getting his feet in there would have done no good, and his feet were what was near the ball as it rolled towards him.

Nantz poisoned the well on that one.

ivotuk":1ei0eaxi said:

I think everyone is jumping on Cam prematurely here. It looked to me like he stepped back because the ball was rolling towards him and his Olineman was diving his direction. And it looked like he wanted to get a better angle to dive on it with his hands. Getting his feet in there would have done no good, and his feet were what was near the ball as it rolled towards him.

Nantz poisoned the well on that one.

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Yeah, I don't really think Cam was that far off on that call. I kind of give him the benefit of the doubt on it. But he was a douche otherwise.

In my eyes the difference is, one was done by the coaching staff. All the players know that and can equally be upset at the staff. In a twisted way, it could be slightly unifying. Fact is, not that many player comments were heard and expounded on. We really don't know how much damage was done.

The other was done by a player, arguably the most important player on the field. And if you toss in "leadership" you really can't even argue it. IMHO, how the other 52 players view the QB is a huge factor in how they play for him.
The mental impact of these types of things depends initially,on the perception of the individual but as some time passes, the mob mentality comes into play. One guy that may have thought that it wasn't a big deal initially, may change his stance when he hears 10 of his buddies all saying how messed up it was.
This holds true for both scenarios.

How much damage was done is yet to be determined. Damage control is done by the leadership. We know how Seahawk leaders handled it. We don't know how Panther leadership will handle it.
I've always said, and will continue to say, locker room chemistry is a HUGE part of how well a team plays. This one play by Cam could completely change that groups "chemistry" or it may not be an issue at all.

Only time will tell, the Panthers are in a fragile place right now, they are in a storm, how they fare will depend on the quality of their leadership.
The Seahawks were in a similar storm following 49, I think we did fairly well and that is a testament to our team leaders.

I'd say the Panthers.
49 was demoralising for sure, but there were plenty of positives to take from the game - we nearly had it despite injuries across the secondary and losing two key players mid-game, but it came down to one play in the end.

What positives do you take if you're Carolina? Completely owned by the Denver defense, and while Manning did sweet FA against Carolina, he was still a player who threw twice as many ints as tds this year and couldn't throw the ball any further than 10 yards downfield, yet they still let them run the ball fairly handily.

Where do you go next if you're the Panthers?

Vancanhawksfan":2jhp0ab4 said:

Bobblehead":2jhp0ab4 said:

I thought it took us about 10 games, including the pre-season games to get over the manner in which we lost the SB.
Ultimately, we lost the HFA and any chance of coming back this year.

Click to expand...

It took our coaches 10 games to figure out the defensive backfield needed to lose Cary Williams and it took 10 games for our revamped offensive line to figure out how to keep Wilson from getting killed. Add to that the Kam Chancellor holdout and it spelled out a slow start for the Hawks. That didn't have anything to do with the Super Bowl loss.

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If you say so, Pete C and Russell say other wise.

1) A perfectly executed play by the defense of New England that nobody saw coming (sorry, but that's the truth. It was a reasonable play call.)

2) An MVP QB who was down by only 6 points with plenty of time left to score a TD and win the game, but decided not to dive for the football that was knocked out of his hand which helped the defense recover and seal the win, despite the fact that for his entire life he had to have been coached to always dive after fumbles because that's literally what every NFL QB does when they fumble.

#2 is way worse, and I'd be way more embarassed if that happened to my team in the Super Bowl. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. How often do you hear about him being 6'5" 250 pounds? How he's "not afraid to take a hit". Yet every other QB, including guys who are way smaller than him, would have dived for that ball. Nobody is EVER coached to try and guess where a fumble is going to bounce. You go immediately after the ball, whever ti is. Cam didn't want to jump in there because he was tired of getting hit and he was frustrated that Denver's defense had made yet another play by slapping the ball out of his hand.

Panthers loss seems damaging in the way that the Broncos loss in SB48 was.

Denver proved you can recover, but it took a complete change in team identity. Does Carolina have the will to change in the way that Denver did?

Losing the game at the 1 yard line, no question. Regardless of the play call, the game's outcome was probably 95% win at that point.

Cam's failure to jump on the fumble was a coward move for sure, but it was nowhere near the determining factor of the outcome like the Sea/NE SB.

I'd rather lose on a poorly executed play than lose the ball and therefor the game due to lack of effort.

McGruff":1n6x96ec said:

HawkGA":1n6x96ec said:

The controversy surrounding not giving the ball to Lynch on the one yard line or Cam not diving on the fumble?

I think the interception was more heart breaking but I think Cam's actions may damage the team more (combined a bit with the fact that I don't think Cam is the leader Wilson is to be able to recover from it).

Click to expand...

Still think its the play call (even though I don't think it was that bad).

As bad as Cam's business decision was, that game was already pretty much over. That may have been the nail, but let's be honest, the coffin was shut. Plus, it was one man (or whatever you want to call Cam)

I think after the interception in 49, Seahawks players were questioning each other. Seahawks coaches were questioning the players. Player were questioning coaches. The fact that no one knew who to point the finger at. Was it Pete's directive and poor time management? Bevell's play call? Wilson's underthrow? Kearse's non-block? Lockette's effort?

Add to that the shock of it. The sudden finality. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Click to expand...

Down 6 with 4 minutes left and you've got the league MVP playing QB for you? The game was hardly over at that point. At least, that shouldn't have been Carolina or Newton's attitude.

MVP53":2nbc1fc8 said:

McGruff":2nbc1fc8 said:

HawkGA":2nbc1fc8 said:

The controversy surrounding not giving the ball to Lynch on the one yard line or Cam not diving on the fumble?

I think the interception was more heart breaking but I think Cam's actions may damage the team more (combined a bit with the fact that I don't think Cam is the leader Wilson is to be able to recover from it).

Click to expand...

Still think its the play call (even though I don't think it was that bad).

As bad as Cam's business decision was, that game was already pretty much over. That may have been the nail, but let's be honest, the coffin was shut. Plus, it was one man (or whatever you want to call Cam)

I think after the interception in 49, Seahawks players were questioning each other. Seahawks coaches were questioning the players. Player were questioning coaches. The fact that no one knew who to point the finger at. Was it Pete's directive and poor time management? Bevell's play call? Wilson's underthrow? Kearse's non-block? Lockette's effort?

Add to that the shock of it. The sudden finality. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Click to expand...

Down 6 with 4 minutes left and you've got the league MVP playing QB for you? The game was hardly over at that point. At least, that shouldn't have been Carolina or Newton's attitude.

Click to expand...

Against that defense on that day, yeah, the game was over. Even if Newton or someone else recovers for the Panthers, its 4th and 15+ yards. You punt the ball and have first stop the Broncos and second drive the length of the field against a defense that yielded, what, 160 yards all game?

Even if the Panthers had won the SB, there's no way they get to 15-1 next year. Their combination of turnover luck, close wins luck, and strength of schedule luck was an extremely uncommon trifecta. By FO's numbers the Panthers played like an 11 win team, so "luck" factors basically added a whopping four wins for them.

Next year, the Panthers will go 10-6 and everyone will blame the SB hangover. The hangover is real and will have an impact, but they were a team that was going to regress anyway. Expecting the Panthers to repeat 2015's success would be like expecting the 2002 Mariners to win 116 games again.

As for the question in the OP:

In a vacuum, the interception at the 1 yard line is infinitely worse on so many levels. But I think the pain Panthers fans feel now is worse than the pain I felt last year as a Hawks fan. When Seattle blew it, it really sucked of course, but the Seahawks had just won the SB the year before, and were favorites to return the year after. Carolina has never won a SB, and after one of the most charmed seasons in NFL history, they had to feel like 'destiny' was on their side going into SB50. A loss like this makes Panthers fans wonder when or if their team will ever win the big one. That's not something we as Hawks fans had to deal with after XLIX.

kearly":852r4y2s said:

Even if the Panthers had won the SB, there's no way they get to 15-1 next year. Their combination of turnover luck, close wins luck, and strength of schedule luck was an extremely uncommon trifecta. By FO's numbers the Panthers played like an 11 win team, so "luck" factors basically added a whopping four wins for them.

Next year, the Panthers will go 10-6 and everyone will blame the SB hangover. The hangover is real and will have an impact, but they were a team that was going to regress anyway. Expecting the Panthers to repeat 2015's success would be like expecting the 2002 Mariners to win 116 games again.

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Yeah, you would expect 3-4 additional losses just on regression to the mean. Part of the luck factor was also the schedule. I'm not sure what their '16 schedule is, but it should be harder, as a div champ.