Wilson vs. Newton and the perception of greatness

WindCityHawk · Jan 31, 2016

I'm not usually one to bang the East Coast Bias drum, but reading all the hype leading up to the big game next week, it's hard not to feel slighted as a Seahawks fan. I'm seeing article after article about how Cam Newton is the best dual threat QB ever, or how he's the next Brady or Manning, particularly since he's going against Manning and it sets up this "passing the mantle" narrative.

Maybe it's only because Newton is playing next weekend and Wilson isn't, but isn't Wilson the one racking up records left and right for passer rating, passing efficiency, quantifiable dual threat numbers (first to combine 4k passing, 500 rushing, and 30 TDs*)? Wins? And hasn't he already beat Manning on the biggest stage? Newton is good at his job, don't get me wrong, but how has he somehow leap-frogged Wilson in the public eye when all he's done is less?

*edited for TD total

HawkGA · Jan 31, 2016

Saw a clip from some ESPN show a little while ago saying that Newton-Luck will be the great QB rivalry going forward and the Wilson would fade away. He just doesn't have the pedigree. Think it was Max Kellerman who said that (it was before the NFCC game last week).

Gotta admit, one of the things that sucks most about the Hawks losing last week is that people who make statements like that feel vindicated.

HomerJHawk · Jan 31, 2016

Cam is playing a HOFer in the SB. Gotta hype the game as much as possible so they can get their ratings.
That's all.

AROS · Jan 31, 2016

The league ALWAYS prefers physical stature in their QBs. This is why Andrew Luck was always considered the next crowned elite quarterback of this generation even though the smaller statured Wilson was putting up records and stats left and right.

We can't argue that Wilson isn't getting the love. He's number one in jersey sales this past year, and his endorsements are sky high. In the past two months I've heard more and more analysts no longer wonder IF he is elite, but top 5 in the league.

But the love fest will always be tempered because he's not the prototypical 6'5" mountain of a species that Cam Newton is.

Like it or not, as long as Cam has the type of year he had in 2015, Wilson will always remain in his shadow. It's not right, but it's how it is.

All that matters to us and Wilson though is winning championships. Let's see who has the most after both careers have come to an end.

BullHawk33 · Jan 31, 2016

You are never going to win the discussion of who is greater this year when one team has only one loss en route to the SB and the other is out. Unfortunately, wins is more important than the context of all numbers, no matter where they are in reality.

It is probably better to quit worrying about trying to change the perception of those that are so set in their ways and just wait another year, when Wilson will prove them all wrong again. The dude can't be happy that Cam is casting shade his way and he'll play much better next year for it.

hawksbydesign · Jan 31, 2016

The media will always talk about the winners and forget the losers. Its all about wins.

chris98251 · Jan 31, 2016

15 - 1 is all you need to know, Wilson isn't the attention Whore Cam is. Also Wilson has went from career back up to serviceable game manager to top 10 and now top young QB in many peoples eyes. Don't need to make noise if your getting the coveted endorsements, win championships and are a winner, your play is louder then anything anyone else can say.

VegasPanther · Jan 31, 2016

HawkGA":2k2cig2p said:
Saw a clip from some ESPN show a little while ago saying that Newton-Luck will be the great QB rivalry going forward and the Wilson would fade away. He just doesn't have the pedigree. Think it was Max Kellerman who said that (it was before the NFCC game last week).

Gotta admit, one of the things that sucks most about the Hawks losing last week is that people who make statements like that feel vindicated.

You know a journalist is a dummy when he thinks there can be a great rivalry between an AFC and an NFC QB, because, you know, they play once every FOUR years!

As a Panther fan, Russell Wilson deserves more love. I love Cam's season, but Wilson has won at least one playoff game in all four of his seasons, and has been performing at a higher level longer. For someone to say someone as accurate, evasive, hard working, and already successful as Wilson is going to "fade away", they should be stripped of their press credentials.

chris98251 · Jan 31, 2016

VegasPanther":3jvh66vm said:
HawkGA":3jvh66vm said:

Saw a clip from some ESPN show a little while ago saying that Newton-Luck will be the great QB rivalry going forward and the Wilson would fade away. He just doesn't have the pedigree. Think it was Max Kellerman who said that (it was before the NFCC game last week).

Gotta admit, one of the things that sucks most about the Hawks losing last week is that people who make statements like that feel vindicated.

Click to expand...

You know a journalist is a dummy when he thinks there can be a great rivalry between an AFC and an NFC QB, because, you know, they play once every FOUR years!

As a Panther fan, Russell Wilson deserves more love. I love Cam's season, but Wilson has won at least one playoff game in all four of his seasons, and has been performing at a higher level longer. For someone to say someone as accurate, evasive, hard working, and already successful as Wilson is going to "fade away", they should be stripped of their press credentials.

Appreciate the acknowledgement, we as Seahawks fans really have only two media guys we give props too regarding Wilson, Mike Mayock and John Gruden, both gave him his just credit on and before draft day. The rest we have listened to from day one saying he was going to fail and wasn't good enough. Since we have seen many reverse their course, but as they say on the Game of Thrones, the North Remembers.

Bobblehead · Jan 31, 2016

Wasn't too long ago that Kaep was a lock as the greatest qb ever.

TwistedHusky · Jan 31, 2016

This kind of thing has a way of shaking itself out.

Wilson is going to continue to improve because he is a great leader, intelligent and still developing his skill set.

Cam relies on physical ability, which is indeed a significant advantage. But Cam is also about as intelligent as a half-eaten sandwich. So as people learn to scheme for his physical abilities, he is not going to have anything in the bag left to compensate.

Wilson has been to 2 SBs in his first 3 years, only missing it his first year. Cam repeatedly underperformed until the light finally went on for him and the team around him solidified.

(He then missed it this year in a year his top RB was injured, back RB was injured, key TE was injured and we had one of the worst OL likely in our history. Even so, he engineered what would have been a near 31 point comeback (or almost a 31 point choke job by Carolina) in that playoff game.)

We came one TD from tying it, which is a large point diff but a single score. And all of us have seen the Seahawks do that kind of thing before. Wilson did a hell of a job considering the crap he was given to work with, remember who his OC is?

But as championship teams lose pieces, while Wilson was able to pick up the slack - Newton won't be able to. Because he has a strong arm but isn't really a stellar QB, more of a good RB that is also an average QB (though with a great arm).

And again, his lack of intellect is going to really hurt his chances as his physical gifts become less an advantage.

Whether people think he is great NOW is immaterial, in a few years he won't be considered near that level. And it is important to point out, the league will need to find a "next great QB" to market and since Cam's Q ratings are pretty much in the toilet for the average football fan, it won't be him. They like guys they can sell, and since Cam is considered a db*g, not universally but to a reasonable %, that is going to be a problem.

Look at all the articles recently about how hated Cam is and how it is being attributed to racism. (Which is stupid considering Wilson isn't white and many non-Seattle fans consider him weird, maybe even fake but they still like him.)

While you could argue that selling hate works (Yankees or Pats as an example), you generally want the lead faces of your sport to be people marketers want to pay to put next to their products. Very unlikely to see any of that for Cam.

chris98251 · Jan 31, 2016

TwistedHusky":1dtexkoh said:
This kind of thing has a way of shaking itself out.

Wilson is going to continue to improve because he is a great leader, intelligent and still developing his skill set.

Cam relies on physical ability, which is indeed a significant advantage. But Cam is also about as intelligent as a half-eaten sandwich. So as people learn to scheme for his physical abilities, he is not going to have anything in the bag left to compensate.

Wilson has been to 2 SBs in his first 3 years, only missing it his first year. Cam repeatedly underperformed until the light finally went on for him and the team around him solidified.

(He then missed it this year in a year his top RB was injured, back RB was injured, key TE was injured and we had one of the worst OL likely in our history. Even so, he engineered what would have been a near 31 point comeback (or almost a 31 point choke job by Carolina) in that playoff game.)

We came one TD from tying it, which is a large point diff but a single score. And all of us have seen the Seahawks do that kind of thing before. Wilson did a hell of a job considering the crap he was given to work with, remember who his OC is?

But as championship teams lose pieces, while Wilson was able to pick up the slack - Newton won't be able to. Because he has a strong arm but isn't really a stellar QB, more of a good RB that is also an average QB (though with a great arm).

And again, his lack of intellect is going to really hurt his chances as his physical gifts become less an advantage.

Whether people think he is great NOW is immaterial, in a few years he won't be considered near that level. And it is important to point out, the league will need to find a "next great QB" to market and since Cam's Q ratings are pretty much in the toilet for the average football fan, it won't be him. They like guys they can sell, and since Cam is considered a db*g, not universally but to a reasonable %, that is going to be a problem.

Look at all the articles recently about how hated Cam is and how it is being attributed to racism. (Which is stupid considering Wilson isn't white and many non-Seattle fans consider him weird, maybe even fake but they still like him.)

While you could argue that selling hate works (Yankees or Pats as an example), you generally want the lead faces of your sport to be people marketers want to pay to put next to their products. Very unlikely to see any of that for Cam.

You could argue that Terry Bradshaw may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but a gifted Physical QB for his day, they surrounded him with a great supporting cast and a good defense and the rest is history. It all depends how the cards fall as far as the GM and the ownership being able to keep it all together.

Wilson's work ethic and skills require a team and understanding of what makes him successful as well, the two QB's are at opposite ends of the spectrum as far as physical size traits and approach, doesn't mean that they can't be successful in both organizations given they understand what can be done to elevate their strengths and in doing so give them the opportunity to make their team better and elevate everyone's play.

TwistedHusky · Jan 31, 2016

Except the league was nowhere near as QB centric as it is back then.

The recipe that Carolina follows is a good one for getting to the 1st SB, but again, after the SB guys look to cash out (Look at Norman already making noises about this now). Teams lose players but good QBs keep the team great.

It should also be noted the league won't bend over backwards to push a QB that it won't be able to sell.

A stupid QB might have worked in the past but any team with a guy holding the reins having a lower IQ than the freezing point of water? Maybe for a one and done, but certainly nothing you could set your watch to (assuming they still have watches anymore).

scutterhawk · Jan 31, 2016

HawkGA":jaj6weu4 said:
Saw a clip from some ESPN show a little while ago saying that Newton-Luck will be the great QB rivalry going forward and the Wilson would fade away. He just doesn't have the pedigree. Think it was Max Kellerman who said that (it was before the NFCC game last week).

Gotta admit, one of the things that sucks most about the Hawks losing last week is that people who make statements like that feel vindicated.

The Seahawks having to play two 10:00 A.M. Eastern Time Zone games in a row ( physiological handicaps), they don't have a solid argument ,and if Andrew Luck is going to be in the discussion?, he'd better get his ass in gear.....
Yep, it's the same kind of ass hats that said the Super Bowl 48 was the worst performance by a team in SB history, and not much credit given to the Seahawks Defense for making Peyton Manning to look NOTHING like the vaunted Quarterback that he'd been all 2013 Season.
They just can't bring themselves to admit that they have been wrong about Third Rounder 'Super Star' Russell Wilson, and how he's shattering their Thinkin' with his Doin'.

dogorama · Feb 1, 2016

It's part of the SB hype and part the fact that a part of America hates the Seahawks if only for the consecutive SB's and outspoken players we have had. Luck is a natural fit because he had just enough success and stature to be perceived as the next coming. It doesn't hurt that he operates out of a Midwest geographic location that feels less threatening too. Actually I have been amazed at the positive amount of press RW got this year. After he crawled out of dark abyss, more commonly known as Darrell Bevell, he was just too good to ignore.

The most important comparison between Cam and RW is the fact that Cam operated behind the second best O-line in the country and RW has operated behind the 30th worst O-line. I blame this season entirely on the coaching staff who thought they would be fine with an O-line completely conceived through grandiose thinking. And another coordinator who went completely with a game plan that had no plan for missing the essential absence of the necessary components that made that plan workable.

HawKnPeppa · Feb 1, 2016

WindCityHawk":2ciq62wx said:
I'm not usually one to bang the East Coast Bias drum, but reading all the hype leading up to the big game next week, it's hard not to feel slighted as a Seahawks fan. I'm seeing article after article about how Cam Newton is the best dual threat QB ever, or how he's the next Brady or Manning, particularly since he's going against Manning and it sets up this "passing the mantle" narrative.

Maybe it's only because Newton is playing next weekend and Wilson isn't, but isn't Wilson the one racking up records left and right for passer rating, passing efficiency, quantifiable dual threat numbers (first to combine 4k passing and 500 rushing)? Wins? And hasn't he already beat Manning on the biggest stage? Newton is good at his job, don't get me wrong, but how has he somehow leap-frogged Wilson in the public eye when all he's done is less?

I find it 'best' not to worry about which QB is 'best.' Newton obviously has grown into one of the most productive QB's in the league, especially when you consider how he's an integral part of their running game. As for who's best for his individual team, I think you can't go wrong with either guy. Newton ideally compliments Carolina's running game because of his size and strength, so giving him X number of planned runs per game is not a big worry, because he probably can take more of a pounding than Russell...not to mention Newton is playing behind a far-superior offensive line right now.
Russell is a guy that has been doing remarkably with very little for a long time now, and we've caught a glimpse of how surreal his production can become when given the same options (spread O), and a modicum of protection. I'm thinking that some circles won't ever take Russell Seriously because he doesn't meet the unwritten height requirement of a prototypical QB. Cam also brings in the ratings because of being flamboyant, so naturally the networks will pump him up even further.

HawKnPeppa · Feb 1, 2016

HawkGA":3vf00l37 said:
Saw a clip from some ESPN show a little while ago saying that Newton-Luck will be the great QB rivalry going forward and the Wilson would fade away. He just doesn't have the pedigree. Think it was Max Kellerman who said that (it was before the NFCC game last week).

Gotta admit, one of the things that sucks most about the Hawks losing last week is that people who make statements like that feel vindicated.

That has been the prevailing attitude and, in some cases, wishful thinking since Russ came into the league. I haven't noticed one iota of 'fade.' There will always be people that can't except other than prototypical size from a QB. And yes, some of them will feel briefly vindicated...until next season.

Overseasfan · Feb 1, 2016

RG3 had an amazing rookie season in 2012. He would rule the league for years to come. Meanwhile Russ also defied all expectations and led the Hawks to a 11-5 record and a strong off-season showing. But the media still said Russ was too short, too reliant on his legs and nothing more than a game manager. RG3 quickly regressed and has now lost his starting job, hell he's even lost the back up job.

Then we had Kaepernick. He was tall and strong, just how the NFL likes their QBs. Colin was destined to lead the 49ers to greatness and vanquish that little Russell Wilson. Come the NFCCG Kaep gets picked off in the red zone by "the tip" and we go on to win the Superbowl. But according to the media Russ had no real part in it and rode along on the back of Marshawn and the defense. Meanwhile Kaep lost his starting gig to Blaine Gabbert. At least RG3 was replaced by a decent QB. Gabbert isn't even good enough for a back up and he still beat Kaep for the job.

Time for the real king of the 2012 draft to finally get recognition he deserves. Andrew Luck. After the 2014 season he was quoted as top 3 QB along with Brady and Rodgers. Wilson was doubted a lot due to him apparently sucking at passing. Nothing that had ever shown on the field but the media just assumed it because he ran the ball a lot and because he is short and because he was only a third round pick who nobody believed in and he is short and have I mentioned he is short? Well, Russ broke franchise records for passing yards and TDs, was league best in accuracy and passer rating and was the first QB ever to score at least 3 TDs in 4 games in a row without throwing an INT, he's also the first QB ever to combine 4k pass yards and 500 rushing yards. Luck crashed and burned. Performing worse than ever before going down to injury. When he was out the debate was no longer Luck vs Rodgers or Luck vs Wilson. It became Luck vs Hasselbeck because Hass was actually performing better for the Colts than Luck did.

And now finally there's Cam. A good rookie year in 2011, then a whole lot of average untill he broke out again this year. That's 2 good seasons and three forgettable seasons. According to the media that's better than 4 strong seasons with each one being better than the last.

Russ will perform like a top 3 QB again and Cam will fall off like he did before.

RichNhansom · Feb 1, 2016

Overseasfan":2mwksh6s said:
RG3 had an amazing rookie season in 2012. He would rule the league for years to come. Meanwhile Russ also defied all expectations and led the Hawks to a 11-5 record and a strong off-season showing. But the media still said Russ was too short, too reliant on his legs and nothing more than a game manager. RG3 quickly regressed and has now lost his starting job, hell he's even lost the back up job.

Then we had Kaepernick. He was tall and strong, just how the NFL likes their QBs. Colin was destined to lead the 49ers to greatness and vanquish that little Russell Wilson. Come the NFCCG Kaep gets picked off in the red zone by "the tip" and we go on to win the Superbowl. But according to the media Russ had no real part in it and rode along on the back of Marshawn and the defense. Meanwhile Kaep lost his starting gig to Blaine Gabbert. At least RG3 was replaced by a decent QB. Gabbert isn't even good enough for a back up and he still beat Kaep for the job.

Time for the real king of the 2012 draft to finally get recognition he deserves. Andrew Luck. After the 2014 season he was quoted as top 3 QB along with Brady and Rodgers. Wilson was doubted a lot due to him apparently sucking at passing. Nothing that had ever shown on the field but the media just assumed it because he ran the ball a lot and because he is short and because he was only a third round pick who nobody believed in and he is short and have I mentioned he is short? Well, Russ broke franchise records for passing yards and TDs, was league best in accuracy and passer rating and was the first QB ever to score at least 3 TDs in 4 games in a row without throwing an INT, he's also the first QB ever to combine 4k pass yards and 500 rushing yards. Luck crashed and burned. Performing worse than ever before going down to injury. When he was out the debate was no longer Luck vs Rodgers or Luck vs Wilson. It became Luck vs Hasselbeck because Hass was actually performing better for the Colts than Luck did.

And now finally there's Cam. A good rookie year in 2011, then a whole lot of average untill he broke out again this year. That's 2 good seasons and three forgettable seasons. According to the media that's better than 4 strong seasons with each one being better than the last.

Russ will perform like a top 3 QB again and Cam will fall off like he did before.

Very good post and that's pretty much what I was thinking as well.

Eventually the NFL circles will realize there has been one constant over the years of comparing the top QB's but in the mean time Wilson will just have to keep out performing all of them like he has done so far.

Maybe we should start a poll of who it will be next year?

Luck again? Maybe Carr? Who knows but you can bet it probably won't be Newton. His O-line will regress a little like O-lines always do and he will regress with them. He won't have the leagues easiest schedule again also.

Cary Kollins · Feb 1, 2016

lol damn there are some salty people in this thread

Cam is being talked about more than Russell right now because, well it's Super Bowl week and Cam is playing in it. It's called a story line. It helps that he is also the NFL MVP and just had a historic season and dominate NFC Championship game.

The media rides the most recent thing they saw. So, the most recent thing they've seen is a Panthers team led by Cam Newton that dominated Seattle for 30 minutes before taking the 2nd half off, and then completely destroy a Cardinals team that was considered at least the second best team in the NFL.

So there you have it. No need to compare Cam to Kaepernick. Anyone that actually watches football and isn't just a fanboy can see Cam is lightyears ahead of Kaep in reading defenses and playing from the pocket.

This offseason there will be plenty of discussion of top QBs and Russell Wilson's name will be near the top of the list. There is still one more game to promote, so that's why you aren't hearing it now.

Wilson vs. Newton and the perception of greatness

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