This is very hard for me to say..............

But this offense is better without Marshawn.

Now before you jump all over me, hear me out. With Lynch, our philosophy was being a physical pound the ball keep the game close until the 4th quarter when Marshawn could start wearing the defense out.

While that style was successful, it was also predictable and suffocated Russell's dynamic skill set because team's figured out that all they needed to do was put 8-9 men in the box to stuff Marshawn while containing Russell, which limited his effectiveness.

With Rawls Bevell and Russell can finally take the chains off the playbook and be as dynamic and fluid as they want to be, and IMO that's what great offenses are all about........being unpredictably explosive and efficient. That's what I see now.

Sgt. Largent":3pazwkvv said:

But this offense is better without Marshawn.

Now before you jump all over me, hear me out. With Lynch, our philosophy was being a physical pound the ball keep the game close until the 4th quarter when Marshawn could start wearing the defense out.

While that style was successful, it was also predictable and suffocated Russell's dynamic skill set because team's figured out that all they needed to do was put 8-9 men in the box to stuff Marshawn while containing Russell, which limited his effectiveness.

With Rawls Bevell and Russell can finally take the chains off the playbook and be as dynamic and fluid as they want to be, and IMO that's what great offenses are all about........being unpredictably explosive and efficient. That's what I see now.

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I completely agree...

A healthy Lynch (as he was last year) gives us a very good, balanced offense. But a healthy Rawls gives us a more dynamic playbook.

I don't think its the players, either, but the OC's play calling with one in versus the other, as you said.

I don't think we would miss a beat if a healthy Lynch were in this offense.

But as you point out, would it be THIS offense, or would it be called differently?

The offense isn't about Lynch anymore, it's about Russell. Same reason the Graham trade hasn't been all that succesful. Jimmy was treated as THE target that had to get the ball instead of another good option for Russell to go to. It's a quarterback league.

I think you're totally spot on here although you might get killed for it. I do think the offense can be even better once Lynch comes back if he's used correctly in a complimentary role to Rawls. I think Rawls should get a higher volume of the carries moving forward and I think Lynch might even welcome it. Going to be interesting to see how they put it together IF Lynch comes back for the playoffs.

Scottemojo":2520a65w said:

I don't think we would miss a beat if a healthy Lynch were in this offense.

But as you point out, would it be THIS offense, or would it be called differently?

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It HAS been called differently, because Lynch needs his 25 carries for maximum effectiveness in the 4th quarter. We don't have to do that with Rawls, we can win with him getting 10 carries, or 25.

I also think Rawls fits this O-line better, because he hits the hole so fast, he doesn't need that perfect cutback lane like Lynch to bust one 15-20 yards.

Obviously the sample set is small, so we'll see when defense coordinators have a bigger body of work to try and stop us what happens, but as of now IMO it's blindlingly clear that this offense is far more dynamic and open without Lynch needing his carries.

I love reading how everyone feels like we were forcing the ball to Jimmy when just 4 weeks ago, All I heard is how he's not getting targeted enough.

This place is so much fun to read.

I don't think it was an issue of forcing Graham the ball to me it just seems like Bevell out thinks himself when he does have Lynch, Graham etc. We are a better team with Graham no doubt and I still think he is going to be very good in a Seahawks uniform even post injury. Bevell called his best game of the year yesterday and I can't figure out why that is.

austinslater25":18q2dems said:

I don't think it was an issue of forcing Graham the ball to me it just seems like Bevell out thinks himself when he does have Lynch, Graham etc. We are a better team with Graham no doubt and I still think he is going to be very good in a Seahawks uniform even post injury. Bevell called his best game of the year yesterday and I can't figure out why that is.

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Execution and missed tackles.

I don't know if you guys noticed, but the Vikings couldn't tackle for shit yesterday. If they hit on more tackles and didn't get juked out by RW numerous times, the game would have been a lot different.

Cartire":2kiiyxco said:

I love reading how everyone feels like we were forcing the ball to Jimmy when just 4 weeks ago, All I heard is how he's not getting targeted enough.

This place is so much fun to read.

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This place is definitely schizophrenic. :laugh:

I think it is too soon to say. Rawls is great, and runs more like alexander ran, but Lynch at the beginning of the season had a few things working against him.
1.) He was not at 100%. Partially his stomach stuff, and some physical issues. He is getting older, and we might never see the brutal force he was in 2013. He has been such an integral part of the teams success I think we have to give him another shot at it.
2.)The oline was still very fresh and learning. Communication up front was lacking and lynch ran into a pile of defenders every down. Because wilson was not able to open up the passing game for various reasons, teams focused on stopping our run. This worked well as in stopping the run they also broke down our front and collapsed the pocket.

Almost every team is having issues with the OL. I see a ton of posts on here angry that the coaches just don't go out and buy a line. They can't. College offenses have put much less of an emphasis on OL as it is a spread system that doesnt require the same level of play as the NFL. There are just not enough offensive lineman of high caliber coming out of the colleges.

Pete and John know this, and I think rightly decided to train their own. That money that would have been spent on OL can now go to other areas. It will take 2 or 3 years, but they are creating an OL system in which they have guys in the wings who they are training (like Nowak) to eventually take the reins when current OL contracts come up and get too expensive. It makes total sense to me, and I think the rest of the league will be following suit in years to come.

With this current line's effectiveness finally starting to come to fruition, I think Lynch will have much better stats when he comes back. The passing game has opened up as well, which in turn gives our RB's a much better chance to find holes.

The other thing, and maybe most important piece, is the attitude Lynch brings to this offense. The walk-in scores where he just just drops the ball like its a mic kills the opposing teams spirits. The guy is a baller, can carry 3 defenders on his back to get the first down. Completely frustrating for defenses that have the right scheme and defense called, and Lynch still could kill them.

I think the combination of the 2 will be great. Hopefully Lynch is back for the playoffs and can do what he does best, coupled with Rawls, to take us all the way this year.

Scottemojo":rq46zko0 said:

I don't think we would miss a beat if a healthy Lynch were in this offense.

But as you point out, would it be THIS offense, or would it be called differently?

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You're statement is probably correct, but you're ignoring the fact that the offense with Lynch relies more heavily on the defense playing nearly perfect against good offenses. Obviously, that led to 5 losses in the 4th quarter this year (the Rams games was probably an anomaly because the Hawks weren't sure what to expect with Foles under center, no tape with that offensive scheme).

The best football teams evolve and adapt.
Personally, I think we are doing both at this point. I also think that a lot of our frustrations were rooted in the slow process of evolution.
Many, as well as myself felt that things should be happening faster and the growth rate(or lack of)cost us a few games. I think that we were resting on our laurels and in the NFL that's a recipe for disaster.
IMHO we aren't necessarily a better team without #24 & #88 but their absence has forced some growth and evolution and that in turn has, translated to less predictable play.
Wait just a minute......maybe we are a better team.
:{)

I think the OP could have a good point, especially where it concerns Rawls. I've also said it, but he hits the hole faster which fits this OL better.

That said, I see the parallels of the 2012 season more than anything else. We started out with a green OL and by midseason they were rounding into shape. Then we went on an almost unprecedented tear scoring lots of points in multiple and consecutive games. Lynch was the tailback then.

We were effective running, and were hitting big plays over the top of the defense. Sound familiar ? The only difference is personnel and Wilson was actively running on the Read Option more. He's a better pocket passer now, so he doesn't have to run as much.

I don't think Lynch is "holding the offense back", at least from a playcalling standpoint. We've opened it up before with Lynch, but he was such a special back, that we got away with bludgeoning teams with him. He's clearly lost a step this season, whether due to age or injuries, but I see it more as Rawls hitting the hole faster and making the run game more effective.

We had 36 running plays out of 66 total. I think the big difference in our Offensive play is the line. Yes Bevell seems to be calling a better game, but is that because our Oline has progressed to a point where more of the playbook is available? Can't imagine our team being worse with one of the best TE's and RB's in our line up. I'm also with Cartire that we weren't forcing the ball to Jimmy, nor do I think we have or would force the ball to Marshawn. Our Run/Pass ratio has been about the same under PC. My only question about Marshawn is will he be 100%. I imagine the Broncos are having a similar discussion at QB. If he is I would love to see him beast it up with the play of this line.

Cartire":dy7mfdsn said:

austinslater25":dy7mfdsn said:

I don't think it was an issue of forcing Graham the ball to me it just seems like Bevell out thinks himself when he does have Lynch, Graham etc. We are a better team with Graham no doubt and I still think he is going to be very good in a Seahawks uniform even post injury. Bevell called his best game of the year yesterday and I can't figure out why that is.

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Execution and missed tackles.

I don't know if you guys noticed, but the Vikings couldn't tackle for shit yesterday. If they hit on more tackles and didn't get juked out by RW numerous times, the game would have been a lot different.

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Who isn't getting juked by RW?

I believe this is Russell's offense now, not Marshawn's. With the success of the switch to a quick read/quick throw approach to the passing game (what took so damned long?!) I believe the coaches are smart enough to stay with this approach. Marshawn and Thomas will do well and run for important yardage of course. But Russ is now the engine in of this offense IMO.

I disagree with the OP of the thread and suggest the difference is solidly from the greatly improved play of the OLine.

Reality is though that Marshawn probably hasn't been healthy all year. When he is healthy the Hawks running game punishes the opposing Ds.

Scottemojo":3jkteltm said:

I don't think we would miss a beat if a healthy Lynch were in this offense.

But as you point out, would it be THIS offense, or would it be called differently?

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It's valid to bring up the design changes. That said, even before the offensive design shift occurred, Wilson was having good performances with Rawls. Also, I don't think a healthy Lynch would have 5.6 YPC behind the current line.

I think Seattle's current success comes from a lot of places, but it began when Rawls started to make our OL look good. In games where Rawls has not gotten the bulk of the carries, our offensive line has been the worst in the NFL by a wide margin. But with Rawls, they feel like a top 10 group. I'm not the biggest OL expert but I can tell you from my playing experience that RB success has a huge impact on the morale of the OL.

Is Rawls a better talent than Lynch? Perhaps, perhaps not. That said, I think a lot of us, myself included, have underestimated Rawls talent because it slipped through the cracks of the NFL scouting process. I do think it's safe to say that Rawls is probably one of the 10 most talented RBs in the NFL in 2015, he's a perfect fit for the current OL, and he's playing his tail off. It's clearly had a transformative impact on the offense. And even better, we don't have to feel like we need to feed Rawls 25 times to get him going, which allows the offense to focus on Wilson and the passing game instead.

StoneCold":3bpw02vy said:

We had 36 running plays out of 66 total. I think the big difference in our Offensive play is the line. Yes Bevell seems to be calling a better game, but is that because our Oline has progressed to a point where more of the playbook is available? Can't imagine our team being worse with one of the best TE's and RB's in our line up. I'm also with Cartire that we weren't forcing the ball to Jimmy, nor do I think we have or would force the ball to Marshawn. Our Run/Pass ratio has been about the same under PC. My only question about Marshawn is will he be 100%. I imagine the Broncos are having a similar discussion at QB. If he is I would love to see him beast it up with the play of this line.

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Certainly a healthy Marshawn lessens my point, but I'll stand by the fact that we are now seeing more dynamic play calling, and a more dynamic Russell without Lynch needing to "get going" in order for our offense to grind down our opponents.

Again, just think Rawls suits Russell and Bevell's style of playcalling better, as it allows them to not have to be restrained by how you use a back like Marshawn.......which is a grind it down predictable style.