Are we going to see a change in offensive approach?

hawksfansinceday1 · Sep 28, 2015

Because of the injury to Marshawn and because of the production we're seeing from Graham I'm starting to wonder if we see the Hawks be more of a pass to set up the run team rather than the other way around. Certainly Pete's philosophy has obviously been to run Marshawn to wear down other teams' defenses and set up big plays for our team's offense, but I question if they can do that with Rawls. Plus, the o-line run blocking has been sketchy this year, worse than the pass pro at times.

If this a new approach thy do take, it will definitely require Pete and Bevell letting Russ take some more chances and throw into tighter windows.

Sgt. Largent · Sep 28, 2015

We passed what the first 8 of 9 offensive attempts?

So yeah, you could tell right away we wanted to get the passing game going. Now, not sure that was cause Marshawn wasn't healthy, or Pete, Bevell and Russell just wanted to get the passing game going early to see if that'd jump start our lack of offense in the first half of these games.

Didn't exactly work with the sacks, drops and penalties.............but it did seem like the game plan was to get the passing game going.

kidhawk · Sep 28, 2015

I think we would be very wise to be a pass to set up the run type offense, but not so much because of who is running or catching the ball, but due to our offensive line. They just don't seem to have the same push that we used to have when we were a predominant run team.

MontanaHawk05 · Sep 28, 2015

Pete will give up his teeth before he gives up being run-first.

hawksfansinceday1 · Sep 28, 2015

MontanaHawk05":39hjonso said:
Pete will give up his teeth before he gives up being run-first.

The trades for first Harvin and then Graham and the drafting of Richardson argue otherwise, or at least argue for a balanced approach rather than run first. I for one really believe that Pete and John have been moving this direction since seeing RW is a franchise QB.

jdemps · Sep 28, 2015

hawksfansinceday1":1g3tscro said:
MontanaHawk05":1g3tscro said:

Pete will give up his teeth before he gives up being run-first.

Click to expand...

The trades for first Harvin and then Graham and the drafting of Richardson argue otherwise, or at least argue for a balanced approach rather than run first. I for one really believe that Pete and John have been moving this direction since seeing RW is a franchise QB.

Russ getting $22 mil/ year means he has to start shouldering some of the load. I think this is the natural evolution of a team paying the franchise. That being said, we aren't going to 60-40. I'm thinking true 50-50 balance, which is a proven winning formula.

Sgt. Largent · Sep 28, 2015

hawksfansinceday1":290z06qs said:
MontanaHawk05":290z06qs said:

Pete will give up his teeth before he gives up being run-first.

Click to expand...

The trades for first Harvin and then Graham and the drafting of Richardson argue otherwise, or at least argue for a balanced approach rather than run first. I for one really believe that Pete and John have been moving this direction since seeing RW is a franchise QB.

Not necessarily.

Even though Pete's always believed in punishing defense and run game first, he still covets the skill positions. He's said it 100 times, I wanna run the ball because that's what wins in January, but I also want to mix in explosive plays, because those are key to winning 2-3 games a year.

So that's the way he builds his teams, he wants that explosive player like Harvin or Graham to supplement the punishing run game.

hawker84 · Sep 28, 2015

Sgt. Largent":1u2jl1as said:
We passed what the first 8 of 9 offensive attempts?

So yeah, you could tell right away we wanted to get the passing game going. Now, not sure that was cause Marshawn wasn't healthy, or Pete, Bevell and Russell just wanted to get the passing game going early to see if that'd jump start our lack of offense in the first half of these games.

Didn't exactly work with the sacks, drops and penalties.............but it did seem like the game plan was to get the passing game going.

Didn't Wilson have like 46 passing yards in the first half? Ended up with 235 on the day, I'd say it worked pretty good?

Hawks46 · Sep 28, 2015

I wish everyone could've listened to the pregame interview on AM radio for this game.

Pete basically put all the "run first" narrative we see on .Net to rest a bit. To paraphrase slightly:

Pete said "we want to be a BALANCED team. We want to run and pass well, and equally. That makes us harder to defend."

He also said "We don't necessarily have to start the game running. We want to run the ball in the 4th quarter when we're ahead to grind a team down when it's tired. We don't necessarily have to start out running the ball all the time."

He also said something like if the run isn't working he wants to be able to pass to set up the run, or take advantage of another team where they are weak.

Basically, he's validating what folks like SC85sis has been saying. Cable has also been quoted as saying "you throw to score and run to win"

I think we've been heavily run slanted for two reasons: to bring Wilson along slowly (which is looking to be a great idea), and because Wilson's ability to run has slanted both our run attempts, but also our yards. Take away his 800 yards rushing and we're a middle of the pack rushing team last year.

sc85sis · Sep 28, 2015

Pete is about using the run to wear down the other team. He's not married to having to do so before the pass is established; it just makes play action easier if you go run first.

He's said more than once lately that he really wants run game late in the game to grind clock and wear down the other team. That of course assumes having the lead first.

bbsplitter · Sep 28, 2015

Hear me out but I think Rawls at 100% is better for this run game then Lynch at 75%. Don't get me wrong, Lynch is still THE BEAST, and talent wise there is no question he is better than Rawls. Although: at his age, when Lynch isn't 100%, that usually means whatever percentage he is at, that lost ability almost always takes the biggest hit on his speed, or acceleration. For the 2 weeks before this game, the run game didn't seem to be gelling all that well, and after looking back at those two games, I think it was mostly because of Lynch's lake of acceleration through the holes. He can still break 4 or 5 tackles at any point of the field even when he is only at 75%, but when he doesn't hit the hole fast enough like was happening in the first 2 games, he sets himself up to have to break those tackles sooner, and instead of those broken tackles being easier and happening against secondary personnel, he is instead being met by lineman or MLB's for an overall gain of 2 or 3 years. I think because zone-blocking is so reliant on choosing the right hole and getting through it quickly to the second level, maybe Rawls is the best choice until Lynch is truly ready to go.

kearly · Sep 28, 2015

Rawls looked mostly ineffective in his first three preseason games playing with Archer. Then in the 4th game Rawls was paired with BJ Daniels and Rawls went off in that game. For all of Daniels flaws at QB, he is a master of running read option.

When the read option is run effectively it really loosens things up in the running game. In the same manner, an effective quick passing game forces linebackers to stay cautious. These two aspects in concert (when combined with hurry up) are the foundation of the Chip Kelly offense.

This is why Seattle's offense looks best in the 2 minute drill. The offense Seattle runs in those situations is similar to a Kelly offense. It's an offense that not only opens up the run, but suits our QB very nicely.

The problem is, this kind of offense doesn't always lend itself to running effectively in obvious run situations. I think this season has shown us just how under-rated the 2011-2014 Seahawk offensive lines were in regards to run blocking. Seattle was #1 in the NFL last season in power run situations, IIRC. This year it feels like we're average at best.

This year, it feels like Seattle always struggles to run the ball early, until Wilson starts getting some mojo going with his arm and feet, and then after Wilson starts rolling the run game starts opening up. Part of that is passing to set up the run. Part of it is Wilson keeping a few read option plays and turning them into nice plays.

And of course, we need teams to respect the run game to make play action viable, and without selling play action our pass protection suffers.

I think the reason why our offense 'feels' underwhelming this year is because every aspect has become co-dependent. We can't pass well if we can't threaten some kind of run and we can't run if we aren't passing and running read option well. The previous Seahawk teams could typically run at will against most opponents. So far this year Seattle has run the ball okay after setting up the run with the pass, but they don't look like a team that can impose their will yet.

Sgt. Largent · Sep 28, 2015

hawker84":2mj8zhbp said:
Sgt. Largent":2mj8zhbp said:

We passed what the first 8 of 9 offensive attempts?

So yeah, you could tell right away we wanted to get the passing game going. Now, not sure that was cause Marshawn wasn't healthy, or Pete, Bevell and Russell just wanted to get the passing game going early to see if that'd jump start our lack of offense in the first half of these games.

Didn't exactly work with the sacks, drops and penalties.............but it did seem like the game plan was to get the passing game going.

Click to expand...

Didn't Wilson have like 46 passing yards in the first half? Ended up with 235 on the day, I'd say it worked pretty good?

I'm purely talking about the first half issues, why do we always start so slow and sloppy?

kf3339 · Sep 28, 2015

kearly":24wmfhrb said:
Rawls looked mostly ineffective in his first three preseason games playing with Archer. Then in the 4th game Rawls was paired with BJ Daniels and Rawls went off in that game. For all of Daniels flaws at QB, he is a master of running read option.

When the read option is run effectively it really loosens things up in the running game. In the same manner, an effective quick passing game forces linebackers to stay cautious. These two aspects in concert (when combined with hurry up) are the foundation of the Chip Kelly offense.

This is why Seattle's offense looks best in the 2 minute drill. The offense Seattle runs in those situations is similar to a Kelly offense. It's an offense that not only opens up the run, but suits our QB very nicely.

The problem is, this kind of offense doesn't always lend itself to running effectively in obvious run situations. I think this season has shown us just how under-rated the 2011-2014 Seahawk offensive lines were in regards to run blocking. Seattle was #1 in the NFL last season in power run situations, IIRC. This year it feels like we're average at best.

This year, it feels like Seattle always struggles to run the ball early, until Wilson starts getting some mojo going with his arm and feet, and then after Wilson starts rolling the run game starts opening up. Part of that is passing to set up the run. Part of it is Wilson keeping a few read option plays and turning them into nice plays.

And of course, we need teams to respect the run game to make play action viable, and without selling play action our pass protection suffers.

I think the reason why our offense 'feels' underwhelming this year is because every aspect has become co-dependent. We can't pass well if we can't threaten some kind of run and we can't run if we aren't passing and running read option well. The previous Seahawk teams could typically run at will against most opponents. So far this year Seattle has run the ball okay after setting up the run with the pass, but they don't look like a team that can impose their will yet.

So do you think we have the type of players on our O-Line to get to the point of imposing our will in the run game this year? Because right now it looks somewhat suspect to me.

seahawk Dan · Sep 28, 2015

hawker84":3fa8x4w6 said:
Sgt. Largent":3fa8x4w6 said:

We passed what the first 8 of 9 offensive attempts?

So yeah, you could tell right away we wanted to get the passing game going. Now, not sure that was cause Marshawn wasn't healthy, or Pete, Bevell and Russell just wanted to get the passing game going early to see if that'd jump start our lack of offense in the first half of these games.

Didn't exactly work with the sacks, drops and penalties.............but it did seem like the game plan was to get the passing game going.

Click to expand...

Didn't Wilson have like 46 passing yards in the first half? Ended up with 235 on the day, I'd say it worked pretty good?

but is it going to take a whole half for us to get going ? we need to play 60 min very quickly

Rocket · Sep 28, 2015

jdemps":3mad22n3 said:
hawksfansinceday1":3mad22n3 said:

MontanaHawk05":3mad22n3 said:

Pete will give up his teeth before he gives up being run-first.

Click to expand...

The trades for first Harvin and then Graham and the drafting of Richardson argue otherwise, or at least argue for a balanced approach rather than run first. I for one really believe that Pete and John have been moving this direction since seeing RW is a franchise QB.

Click to expand...

Russ getting $22 mil/ year means he has to start shouldering some of the load. I think this is the natural evolution of a team paying the franchise. That being said, we aren't going to 60-40. I'm thinking true 50-50 balance, which is a proven winning formula.

Harvin, Graham, Richardson, et al are here to make mental room for the Running Back, whomever he may be. Mental room meaning the opposing defenders have to focus elsewhere. A good chunk of Russ's money is cuz he too can run and so he too takes away said focus and makes said room.

Pete Pounds Rocks™, so Pete's teeth are safe.

SalishHawkFan · Sep 28, 2015

jdemps":3be07xhj said:
hawksfansinceday1":3be07xhj said:

The trades for first Harvin and then Graham and the drafting of Richardson argue otherwise, or at least argue for a balanced approach rather than run first. I for one really believe that Pete and John have been moving this direction since seeing RW is a franchise QB.

Click to expand...

Russ getting $22 mil/ year means he has to start shouldering some of the load. I think this is the natural evolution of a team paying the franchise. That being said, we aren't going to 60-40. I'm thinking true 50-50 balance, which is a proven winning formula.

2012: 405 pass att. 536 rush att. 43/57%
2013: 420 pass 509 rush 45/55%
2014: 454 pass 525 rush 46/54%
2015: 101 pass 86 rush 54/46%

We've gone from slowly edging up to a 50/50 team to having totally flip flopped. I'd say that was cause for concern regarding Lynch. He's looked a step slower and then he's been held out due to nagging pains. This, coupled with a complete abandonment of our core principles and going to a pass first offense and I'd say where there's smoke there's fire.

btw, if we keep this pace up, we'll finish this season with 539 pass 459 rush. That's 7 more passes and 4 less rushes per game than we've averaged the previous 3 years.

Granted, this is small sample size. It's three games. However, they've passed more than run in every single game this season, even the shutout against Chicago. You have to go back to week 7 vs Carolina last year to find a game where they made more pass attempts than rushing attempts. You won't find three games in a row where they did that in the Russell Wilson era prior to this.

peppersjap · Sep 29, 2015

I think we need to transition into more of a passing team because Lynch is not going to be around much longer and we finally have talent at the Receiver positions. They have to get the ball in Jimmy Grahams hands, in 2 of the 3 games they did it in the 2nd half and the offense started to roll. The guy needs to be used like he was in New Orleans or it wasn't worth making the trade. I think Baldwin and Kearse have both played really well so far (and I'm not a huge fan of Kearse) but way more excited about Lockett and Richardson when he gets back. I think Mathews is kind of playing out to be the one hit wonder that I thought he would be but hope I'm wrong.

I was on the fence on whether to go with Michael or Rawls but I was leaning toward Michael. Once again Pete and Schneider showed they are smarter than me and went with the right guy! I think our running game is in game shape in the future also but think the passing game is going to be needed to set up the run. I also love the addition of Fred Jackson in the passing game out of the back field.

KitsapGuy · Sep 29, 2015

[tweet]https://twitter.com/KennethArthuRS/status/648713559015190528[/tweet]

UK_Seahawk · Sep 29, 2015

Rocket":5vp6fa8x said:
jdemps":5vp6fa8x said:

hawksfansinceday1":5vp6fa8x said:

MontanaHawk05":5vp6fa8x said:

Pete will give up his teeth before he gives up being run-first.

Click to expand...

The trades for first Harvin and then Graham and the drafting of Richardson argue otherwise, or at least argue for a balanced approach rather than run first. I for one really believe that Pete and John have been moving this direction since seeing RW is a franchise QB.

Click to expand...

Russ getting $22 mil/ year means he has to start shouldering some of the load. I think this is the natural evolution of a team paying the franchise. That being said, we aren't going to 60-40. I'm thinking true 50-50 balance, which is a proven winning formula.

Click to expand...

Harvin, Graham, Richardson, et al are here to make mental room for the Running Back, whomever he may be. Mental room meaning the opposing defenders have to focus elsewhere. A good chunk of Russ's money is cuz he too can run and so he too takes away said focus and makes said room.

Pete Pounds Rocks™, so Pete's teeth are safe.

That's how I see it. Keep the run first identity but no harm making the opposition have to think about other options.

Are we going to see a change in offensive approach?

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