Seahawks.NET AMAZON STOREFRONT

Russ has regressed as a QB

The Essential Online Seattle Football Fan Forum Community. There simply is NO substitute. LANGUAGE RATING: PG-13
Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:19 pm
  • Fade wrote:
    BoltonWanderer wrote:I love Wilson, and I do rate him highly, but there's no question that he's an inconsistent quarterback. The people who love him, myself included, have reason to rate him highly and some of the throws and plays he can make are unbelievable, but then there's an aspect to his game which baffles everyone, Wilson included. Think about the missed pass to Baldwin. No high level QB should be missing that pass and in 99% of cases, it's a touchdown, yet Wilson has periods in games where he's so far beneath his own level. I think the difference between him at his best and worst is the biggest in the league and the strange thing about Wilson is that, unlike bad QBs, he doesn't have weeks where he's poor, he just has parts of a games where he misses very easy throws but, like the best QBs, he's capable of hitting some unbelievable throws too.

    I can't say enough about Wilson, I love him and would never want to lose him as a Seahawk, but he has issues to fix. These stats about him in the 4th are great but the other 3 quarters should be similar and in games like this, or the famous NFC Championship game against the Packers, they just aren't. Wilson needs to find more consistency; it's not a physical issue, it's mental and we need him on his best all the time because THAT Wilson is very much elite and near unstoppable.


    This post is so categorically wrong I cannot believe I am reading it.

    You can set your watch to Russell Wilson.

    +60%
    30+ TDs (Running & Throwing)
    10 INTS
    100 Passer Rating
    500 Yards Rushing

    He is the model of consistency. The 2nd Highest rated passer of All-Time.

    2012 - 100.0 Passer Rating
    2013 - 101.2 Passer Rating
    2014 - 95.0 Passer Rating
    2015 - 110.1 Passer Rating
    2016 - 92.6 Passer Rating (Injured Season w/ankle & MCL tear. 32nd Ranked O-Line via PFF, only 259 yds rushing.)
    2017 - 95.6 Passer Rating
    2018 - 110.2 Passer Rating (Already has 227 yards rushing in 10 games. Further context to how hurt he was in 2016.)

    Matt Ryan is inconsistent.

    2012 - 99.1 Passer Rating
    2013 - 89.6 Passer Rating
    2014 - 93.9 Passer Rating
    2015 - 89.7 Passer Rating
    2016 - 117.1 Passer Rating
    2017 - 91.4 Passer Rating
    2018 - 113.2 Passer Rating

    He has only posted a 100% passer rating 2 times in his much longer career. Most seasons he was in the low 90's.

    Or have a laugh and look at Cam Newton as a passer. That is inconsistent.


    I am going to create a new thread to bury this stupidity once and for all.

    You either didn't read or didn't understand my point.

    Firstly, it seems like you think I'm against Wilson when I'm not. I think he's elite, I love him and I want him to retire here. I wouldn't swap him for anyone else in the league and if you offered me a prime version of any active QB instead of him, the list may only be two long. I'm a huge fan of his, so what I say isn't criticism, it's an observation.

    Secondly, his record year in year out has got no bearing on what I said. As I said "he doesn't have weeks where he's poor, he just has parts of a games where he misses very easy throws", so that's my issue with his game. It's not that he has bad weeks, or even bad years which you seem to think is the only aspect of consistency, it's that when he's off form, he'll take time to settle in and then be brilliant in the fourth quarter. That's fine, we all love those comebacks, but the disparity between the fourth and the previous three is the definition of inconsistency.

    Year in year out, Wilson is consistent, there's no denying that. He's a very high level QB. Game in game out, he's consistent, but there are drives and quarters of games where he can be either unstoppable or very poor. I think that disparity in levels is more significant than any other top QB around now, including guys like Matt Ryan, even though Wilson is the far better player.

    Last year, Wilson's passer rating in the first quarter was 75.3 and in the fourth quarter, it was an astonishing 138.2. No matter which numbers you want to look at, that is inconsistency throughout a game. Consistency is averaging between 90-100 or whatever, inconsistency is going from 75.3 to 138.2.

    By the way, the fact he is capable of 138.2 is why all Seahawks fans should love him but it's utterly pointless to be biased and ignored the 75.3, we should want him to fix things that are holding him back.
    User avatar
    BoltonWanderer
    NET Bench Warmer
     
    Posts: 21
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:41 am


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:39 pm
  • BoltonWanderer wrote:
    Fade wrote:
    BoltonWanderer wrote:I love Wilson, and I do rate him highly, but there's no question that he's an inconsistent quarterback. The people who love him, myself included, have reason to rate him highly and some of the throws and plays he can make are unbelievable, but then there's an aspect to his game which baffles everyone, Wilson included. Think about the missed pass to Baldwin. No high level QB should be missing that pass and in 99% of cases, it's a touchdown, yet Wilson has periods in games where he's so far beneath his own level. I think the difference between him at his best and worst is the biggest in the league and the strange thing about Wilson is that, unlike bad QBs, he doesn't have weeks where he's poor, he just has parts of a games where he misses very easy throws but, like the best QBs, he's capable of hitting some unbelievable throws too.

    I can't say enough about Wilson, I love him and would never want to lose him as a Seahawk, but he has issues to fix. These stats about him in the 4th are great but the other 3 quarters should be similar and in games like this, or the famous NFC Championship game against the Packers, they just aren't. Wilson needs to find more consistency; it's not a physical issue, it's mental and we need him on his best all the time because THAT Wilson is very much elite and near unstoppable.


    This post is so categorically wrong I cannot believe I am reading it.

    You can set your watch to Russell Wilson.

    +60%
    30+ TDs (Running & Throwing)
    10 INTS
    100 Passer Rating
    500 Yards Rushing

    He is the model of consistency. The 2nd Highest rated passer of All-Time.

    2012 - 100.0 Passer Rating
    2013 - 101.2 Passer Rating
    2014 - 95.0 Passer Rating
    2015 - 110.1 Passer Rating
    2016 - 92.6 Passer Rating (Injured Season w/ankle & MCL tear. 32nd Ranked O-Line via PFF, only 259 yds rushing.)
    2017 - 95.6 Passer Rating
    2018 - 110.2 Passer Rating (Already has 227 yards rushing in 10 games. Further context to how hurt he was in 2016.)

    Matt Ryan is inconsistent.

    2012 - 99.1 Passer Rating
    2013 - 89.6 Passer Rating
    2014 - 93.9 Passer Rating
    2015 - 89.7 Passer Rating
    2016 - 117.1 Passer Rating
    2017 - 91.4 Passer Rating
    2018 - 113.2 Passer Rating

    He has only posted a 100% passer rating 2 times in his much longer career. Most seasons he was in the low 90's.

    Or have a laugh and look at Cam Newton as a passer. That is inconsistent.


    I am going to create a new thread to bury this stupidity once and for all.

    You either didn't read or didn't understand my point.

    Firstly, it seems like you think I'm against Wilson when I'm not. I think he's elite, I love him and I want him to retire here. I wouldn't swap him for anyone else in the league and if you offered me a prime version of any active QB instead of him, the list may only be two long. I'm a huge fan of his, so what I say isn't criticism, it's an observation.

    Secondly, his record year in year out has got no bearing on what I said. As I said "he doesn't have weeks where he's poor, he just has parts of a games where he misses very easy throws", so that's my issue with his game. It's not that he has bad weeks, or even bad years which you seem to think is the only aspect of consistency, it's that when he's off form, he'll take time to settle in and then be brilliant in the fourth quarter. That's fine, we all love those comebacks, but the disparity between the fourth and the previous three is the definition of inconsistency.

    Year in year out, Wilson is consistent, there's no denying that. He's a very high level QB. Game in game out, he's consistent, but there are drives and quarters of games where he can be either unstoppable or very poor. I think that disparity in levels is more significant than any other top QB around now, including guys like Matt Ryan, even though Wilson is the far better player.

    Last year, Wilson's passer rating in the first quarter was 75.3 and in the fourth quarter, it was an astonishing 138.2. No matter which numbers you want to look at, that is inconsistency throughout a game. Consistency is averaging between 90-100 or whatever, inconsistency is going from 75.3 to 138.2.

    By the way, the fact he is capable of 138.2 is why all Seahawks fans should love him but it's utterly pointless to be biased and ignored the 75.3, we should want him to fix things that are holding him back.


    I don't care what his stats are like.... the bottom line is he keeps putting the team in position to win games consistently...game after game.

    LTH
    LTH
    NET Starter
     
    Posts: 482
    Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:58 pm


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:56 pm
  • Last year was an anomaly for Wilson in the first half of games. That had a lot to do with bad play calling, a terrible offensive line, and zero running game.

    This year, he has been tremendous in the first half, like every other season in his career (except 2017).

    He’s completing over 70% of his passes in the first half with 12 TDs and 0 INTs.
    User avatar
    hawknation2018
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2852
    Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:04 pm


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:18 pm
  • BoltonWanderer wrote:You either didn't read or didn't understand my point.

    Firstly, it seems like you think I'm against Wilson when I'm not. I think he's elite, I love him and I want him to retire here. I wouldn't swap him for anyone else in the league and if you offered me a prime version of any active QB instead of him, the list may only be two long. I'm a huge fan of his, so what I say isn't criticism, it's an observation.

    Secondly, his record year in year out has got no bearing on what I said. As I said "he doesn't have weeks where he's poor, he just has parts of a games where he misses very easy throws", so that's my issue with his game. It's not that he has bad weeks, or even bad years which you seem to think is the only aspect of consistency, it's that when he's off form, he'll take time to settle in and then be brilliant in the fourth quarter. That's fine, we all love those comebacks, but the disparity between the fourth and the previous three is the definition of inconsistency.

    Year in year out, Wilson is consistent, there's no denying that. He's a very high level QB. Game in game out, he's consistent, but there are drives and quarters of games where he can be either unstoppable or very poor. I think that disparity in levels is more significant than any other top QB around now, including guys like Matt Ryan, even though Wilson is the far better player.

    Last year, Wilson's passer rating in the first quarter was 75.3 and in the fourth quarter, it was an astonishing 138.2. No matter which numbers you want to look at, that is inconsistency throughout a game. Consistency is averaging between 90-100 or whatever, inconsistency is going from 75.3 to 138.2.

    By the way, the fact he is capable of 138.2 is why all Seahawks fans should love him but it's utterly pointless to be biased and ignored the 75.3, we should want him to fix things that are holding him back.


    You have a distorted lens. Let me explain.

    You do not watch the other 31 teams play football consistently. You watch only the highlights of other teams, but watch Wilson's every throw.

    From that filter you rarely ever see the other QBs mistakes. Trust me they make just as many if not more. I will go into further detail in an upcoming new thread I am about to create.

    Also too Offensive Line play, and OC can raise the degree of difficulty, and can lead to inconsistencies. You are clearly not factoring that in. Russell Wilson has had the highest degree of difficulty of all of the elite QBs (which I will prove statistically) while still hanging with those guys numbers wise, it is ridiculously impressive.

    Great QBs have bad seasons, games, halves, quarters, series, plays, throws over the course of their careers. They all do actually. You're demanding the impossible. 138.2 is not a sustainable number (or thereabouts) as an expectation you should have for a QB. You can root for that outcome, trust me I do all the time, but you cannot have that as your expectation. Your'e suffering from the "Mythical Franchise QB Syndrome". He plays great all of the time, and drags scrub to avg teams kicking and screaming to Conference Championship Games. That guy doesn't exist.
    User avatar
    Fade
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1955
    Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:26 am
    Location: Truth Ray


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:51 pm
  • Fade wrote:
    BoltonWanderer wrote:You either didn't read or didn't understand my point.

    Firstly, it seems like you think I'm against Wilson when I'm not. I think he's elite, I love him and I want him to retire here. I wouldn't swap him for anyone else in the league and if you offered me a prime version of any active QB instead of him, the list may only be two long. I'm a huge fan of his, so what I say isn't criticism, it's an observation.

    Secondly, his record year in year out has got no bearing on what I said. As I said "he doesn't have weeks where he's poor, he just has parts of a games where he misses very easy throws", so that's my issue with his game. It's not that he has bad weeks, or even bad years which you seem to think is the only aspect of consistency, it's that when he's off form, he'll take time to settle in and then be brilliant in the fourth quarter. That's fine, we all love those comebacks, but the disparity between the fourth and the previous three is the definition of inconsistency.

    Year in year out, Wilson is consistent, there's no denying that. He's a very high level QB. Game in game out, he's consistent, but there are drives and quarters of games where he can be either unstoppable or very poor. I think that disparity in levels is more significant than any other top QB around now, including guys like Matt Ryan, even though Wilson is the far better player.

    Last year, Wilson's passer rating in the first quarter was 75.3 and in the fourth quarter, it was an astonishing 138.2. No matter which numbers you want to look at, that is inconsistency throughout a game. Consistency is averaging between 90-100 or whatever, inconsistency is going from 75.3 to 138.2.

    By the way, the fact he is capable of 138.2 is why all Seahawks fans should love him but it's utterly pointless to be biased and ignored the 75.3, we should want him to fix things that are holding him back.


    You have a distorted lens. Let me explain.

    You do not watch the other 31 teams play football consistently. You watch only the highlights of other teams, but watch Wilson's every throw.

    From that filter you rarely ever see the other QBs mistakes. Trust me they make just as many if not more. I will go into further detail in an upcoming new thread I am about to create.

    Also too Offensive Line play, and OC can raise the degree of difficulty, and can lead to inconsistencies. You are clearly not factoring that in. Russell Wilson has had the highest degree of difficulty of all of the elite QBs (which I will prove statistically) while still hanging with those guys numbers wise, it is ridiculously impressive.

    Great QBs have bad seasons, games, halves, quarters, series, plays, throws over the course of their careers. They all do actually. You're demanding the impossible. 138.2 is not a sustainable number (or thereabouts) as an expectation you should have for a QB. You can root for that outcome, trust me I do all the time, but you cannot have that as your expectation. Your'e suffering from the "Mythical Franchise QB Syndrome". He plays great all of the time, and drags scrub to avg teams kicking and screaming to Conference Championship Games. That guy doesn't exist.


    "Mythical Franchise QB Syndrome?" LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!
    LTH
    NET Starter
     
    Posts: 482
    Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:58 pm


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:08 pm
  • Scorpion05 wrote:
    Hawkpower wrote:
    FlyHawksFly wrote:
    BoltonWanderer wrote:Because he can be a brilliant QB, and as I said several times in that post, he can play at a level which is unstoppable.

    The problem is, Wilson is capable of a perfect passing rating (as he's done this season) and capable of perfect quarters (as he's also done this season) but then he's also capable of having quarters where he misses very simple throws, holds onto the ball for too long and makes poor decisions. That's why I called him inconsistent because he is, factually, inconsistent. You can be inconsistent and overall very good, it's just that if Wilson was more consistent, he'd be evem better.

    That's not to deny his potential and ability because nobody can deny it, he can be arguably the most unstoppable QB in the league when he's on form, but he can be awful too.


    Name a QB who doesn't do those things?



    True every QB has bad moments.

    But he has a point. Russ has really, REALLY bad stretches. And really REALLY great stretches.

    I think most elite QB's are more steady, with an occasional bad throw or mistake mixed in, whereas Russ can be inexplicably horrible for long stretches of a game and then suddenly seems to turn it on and is an absolute stud on the field.

    As fans, its ok to admit this. This tendency to say WELL WE COULD HAVE DAN MCGWIRE!!!! every time somebody dares to point out a frustrating part of his game is ridiculous. Most of us appreciate Russ, but he can be frustrating to watch when he is in a bad stretch and our offense sputters for quarters and halves at a time as a result.



    Can I just say...and I’m not just trying to argue or refusing to admit it. But I really think this is HIGHLY inaccurate. It really goes to show that most people go based off perception or stereotypes, and not reality. The idea that Brady, Rodgers, or even Brees don’t make really bad throws, or miss WIDE OPEN guys is kind of an insult to football knowledge. Of course they do, unless they’re having an outlier year. Implying that they never do is just mythologizing these QBs. What is happening a lot here is confirmation bias. If you always had doubts about Russ as a QB, his mistakes will stick out to you. It will be retweeted, and discussed ad-nauseam. Confirmation bias will also allow us to flat out ignore when some of these QBs sulk, and behave like poor team mates (Brady, Rodgers). We can all leave with a different opinion here, but we’re never going to see eye to eye on here if we pretend these things are unique to Wilson and that other elite QBs don’t miss wide open guys. Try to let the stereotype go

    I do not think Russ is better than Brady or Rodgers yet..but I believe he’s at least number 3 or 4. That said, I think Russ is the only one that can carry a team to 9 or 10 wins when everything is falling apart around him. In a year when he’s not learning a new system. I don’t think any of the QBs supposedly above Wilson gets us to 9-7 last year, for example. Maybe Rodgers, but his record on the road is terrible




    I acknowledged that every QB makes bad throws and has bad stretches here and there.

    My point is that I believe Russ has a bigger deviation from the norm than say a Drew Brees or Tom Brady.

    While Brees and Brady miss throws and wide open receivers, I don't see them go full halves and long stretches during games where they are just flat out awful. Its more random hit and miss with those guys.

    Think back to the NFC championship game against the Packers. He was so so so bad that game. Until magically he wasn't. This pattern has many examples- and in my opinion more so than most elite QB's.

    I would still take him over many other QB's. When he is on, he is right up there with the best. And I see nothing wrong with stating that finding a way to minimize these "slumps" that he tends to have in many games would elevate him to an even higher level.
    Hawkpower
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2201
    Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:53 am
    Location: Phoenix az


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:36 am
  • As the OP I get all of the negative responses. My point was and is simple:

    Would you.rather have today's Russ or the one from 4-5 years ago?
    seabowl
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2493
    Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:20 am


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:50 am
  • seabowl wrote:As the OP I get all of the negative responses. My point was and is simple:

    Would you.rather have today's Russ or the one from 4-5 years ago?


    Today. Period. He has 23 TD passes already. Both of those seasons? He had 26 total.
    2018 Adopt a Rookie: Rashaad Penny

    Image
    User avatar
    Sox-n-Hawks
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2689
    Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:26 am


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:10 am
  • Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    seabowl wrote:As the OP I get all of the negative responses. My point was and is simple:

    Would you.rather have today's Russ or the one from 4-5 years ago?


    Today. Period. He has 23 TD passes already. Both of those seasons? He had 26 total.



    ^ This. 4-5 years ago, he wasn’t asked to carry the team. At the beginning of his career, teams didn’t know how to deal with him. Defenses have adjusted and are doing a better job of containing his scrambles. I believe he’s a better QB now. His stats bear that out. He is just now hitting his prime years. The way he takes care of his body, his physical decline is years away.
    Go Hawks!
    oldhawkfan
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1831
    Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:06 pm
    Location: Spokane


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:17 am
  • Hawkpower wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:
    Hawkpower wrote:
    FlyHawksFly wrote:
    Name a QB who doesn't do those things?



    True every QB has bad moments.

    But he has a point. Russ has really, REALLY bad stretches. And really REALLY great stretches.

    I think most elite QB's are more steady, with an occasional bad throw or mistake mixed in, whereas Russ can be inexplicably horrible for long stretches of a game and then suddenly seems to turn it on and is an absolute stud on the field.

    As fans, its ok to admit this. This tendency to say WELL WE COULD HAVE DAN MCGWIRE!!!! every time somebody dares to point out a frustrating part of his game is ridiculous. Most of us appreciate Russ, but he can be frustrating to watch when he is in a bad stretch and our offense sputters for quarters and halves at a time as a result.



    Can I just say...and I’m not just trying to argue or refusing to admit it. But I really think this is HIGHLY inaccurate. It really goes to show that most people go based off perception or stereotypes, and not reality. The idea that Brady, Rodgers, or even Brees don’t make really bad throws, or miss WIDE OPEN guys is kind of an insult to football knowledge. Of course they do, unless they’re having an outlier year. Implying that they never do is just mythologizing these QBs. What is happening a lot here is confirmation bias. If you always had doubts about Russ as a QB, his mistakes will stick out to you. It will be retweeted, and discussed ad-nauseam. Confirmation bias will also allow us to flat out ignore when some of these QBs sulk, and behave like poor team mates (Brady, Rodgers). We can all leave with a different opinion here, but we’re never going to see eye to eye on here if we pretend these things are unique to Wilson and that other elite QBs don’t miss wide open guys. Try to let the stereotype go

    I do not think Russ is better than Brady or Rodgers yet..but I believe he’s at least number 3 or 4. That said, I think Russ is the only one that can carry a team to 9 or 10 wins when everything is falling apart around him. In a year when he’s not learning a new system. I don’t think any of the QBs supposedly above Wilson gets us to 9-7 last year, for example. Maybe Rodgers, but his record on the road is terrible




    I acknowledged that every QB makes bad throws and has bad stretches here and there.

    My point is that I believe Russ has a bigger deviation from the norm than say a Drew Brees or Tom Brady.

    While Brees and Brady miss throws and wide open receivers, I don't see them go full halves and long stretches during games where they are just flat out awful. Its more random hit and miss with those guys.

    Think back to the NFC championship game against the Packers. He was so so so bad that game. Until magically he wasn't. This pattern has many examples- and in my opinion more so than most elite QB's.

    I would still take him over many other QB's. When he is on, he is right up there with the best. And I see nothing wrong with stating that finding a way to minimize these "slumps" that he tends to have in many games would elevate him to an even higher level.


    Oh my goodness. So first people argue that the Elite QBs don’t miss wide open throws, make dumb mistakes, etc.

    So in response to that, people here post examples proving that’s not true. In this thread and the new thread. Okay great

    So now, instead of acknowledging that, now the argument is Russ is the only QB who may have a bad half or quarters?? So now you need evidence that Brady, Brees, and Rodgers have entire halves or games when they’ve struggled throughout their career?? And then, you use one of Wilson’s COMPLETE outlier games, the Packers NFC Championship game to prove that? So now you need examples of elite QBs throwing multiple interceptions and losing the game?? Oh lord :roll: , this is impossible LOL.
    User avatar
    Scorpion05
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 897
    Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:05 am


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:21 am
  • Hawkpower wrote:
    I acknowledged that every QB makes bad throws and has bad stretches here and there.

    My point is that I believe Russ has a bigger deviation from the norm than say a Drew Brees or Tom Brady.

    While Brees and Brady miss throws and wide open receivers, I don't see them go full halves and long stretches during games where they are just flat out awful. Its more random hit and miss with those guys.

    Think back to the NFC championship game against the Packers. He was so so so bad that game. Until magically he wasn't. This pattern has many examples- and in my opinion more so than most elite QB's.

    I would still take him over many other QB's. When he is on, he is right up there with the best. And I see nothing wrong with stating that finding a way to minimize these "slumps" that he tends to have in many games would elevate him to an even higher level.


    You must not have watched Aaron Rodgers in the 2nd half against the Hawks on THUR Night. I advise you to watch again.

    Rodgers was bad, repeatedly going Three and out, in the 2nd half, taking unnecessary sacks, holding the ball too long, and left his defense gassed. He then threw the ball in the dirt on 3rd and 2 to a wide open receiver with the game on the line late in the 4th quarter.

    Yes you "believe", but you have no idea what reality actually is.

    Another case of Mythical Franchise Quarterback Syndrome.
    User avatar
    Fade
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1955
    Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:26 am
    Location: Truth Ray


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:24 pm
  • Fade wrote:
    Hawkpower wrote:
    I acknowledged that every QB makes bad throws and has bad stretches here and there.

    My point is that I believe Russ has a bigger deviation from the norm than say a Drew Brees or Tom Brady.

    While Brees and Brady miss throws and wide open receivers, I don't see them go full halves and long stretches during games where they are just flat out awful. Its more random hit and miss with those guys.

    Think back to the NFC championship game against the Packers. He was so so so bad that game. Until magically he wasn't. This pattern has many examples- and in my opinion more so than most elite QB's.

    I would still take him over many other QB's. When he is on, he is right up there with the best. And I see nothing wrong with stating that finding a way to minimize these "slumps" that he tends to have in many games would elevate him to an even higher level.


    You must not have watched Aaron Rodgers in the 2nd half against the Hawks on THUR Night. I advise you to watch again.

    Rodgers was bad, repeatedly going Three and out, in the 2nd half, taking unnecessary sacks, holding the ball too long, and left his defense gassed. He then threw the ball in the dirt on 3rd and 2 to a wide open receiver with the game on the line late in the 4th quarter.

    Yes you "believe", but you have no idea what reality actually is.

    Another case of Mythical Franchise Quarterback Syndrome.




    Your confusing me with fans who don't like Russ.

    Pointing out areas of his game that hold us back at times doesn't mean I don't think he is great QB for us.

    The guys who bash any opinion that is critical of any part of Russ' game are just as annoying as the guys who call him a game manager.

    He doesn't have to be either a top 3 QB in the league or complete trash. He is somewhere in between and thats just fine with me.
    Hawkpower
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2201
    Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:53 am
    Location: Phoenix az


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:32 pm
  • Scorpion05 wrote:
    Hawkpower wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:
    Hawkpower wrote:

    True every QB has bad moments.

    But he has a point. Russ has really, REALLY bad stretches. And really REALLY great stretches.

    I think most elite QB's are more steady, with an occasional bad throw or mistake mixed in, whereas Russ can be inexplicably horrible for long stretches of a game and then suddenly seems to turn it on and is an absolute stud on the field.

    As fans, its ok to admit this. This tendency to say WELL WE COULD HAVE DAN MCGWIRE!!!! every time somebody dares to point out a frustrating part of his game is ridiculous. Most of us appreciate Russ, but he can be frustrating to watch when he is in a bad stretch and our offense sputters for quarters and halves at a time as a result.



    Can I just say...and I’m not just trying to argue or refusing to admit it. But I really think this is HIGHLY inaccurate. It really goes to show that most people go based off perception or stereotypes, and not reality. The idea that Brady, Rodgers, or even Brees don’t make really bad throws, or miss WIDE OPEN guys is kind of an insult to football knowledge. Of course they do, unless they’re having an outlier year. Implying that they never do is just mythologizing these QBs. What is happening a lot here is confirmation bias. If you always had doubts about Russ as a QB, his mistakes will stick out to you. It will be retweeted, and discussed ad-nauseam. Confirmation bias will also allow us to flat out ignore when some of these QBs sulk, and behave like poor team mates (Brady, Rodgers). We can all leave with a different opinion here, but we’re never going to see eye to eye on here if we pretend these things are unique to Wilson and that other elite QBs don’t miss wide open guys. Try to let the stereotype go

    I do not think Russ is better than Brady or Rodgers yet..but I believe he’s at least number 3 or 4. That said, I think Russ is the only one that can carry a team to 9 or 10 wins when everything is falling apart around him. In a year when he’s not learning a new system. I don’t think any of the QBs supposedly above Wilson gets us to 9-7 last year, for example. Maybe Rodgers, but his record on the road is terrible[/quote



    I acknowledged that every QB makes bad throws and has bad stretches here and there.

    My point is that I believe Russ has a bigger deviation from the norm than say a Drew Brees or Tom Brady.

    While Brees and Brady miss throws and wide open receivers, I don't see them go full halves and long stretches during games where they are just flat out awful. Its more random hit and miss with those guys.

    Think back to the NFC championship game against the Packers. He was so so so bad that game. Until magically he wasn't. This pattern has many examples- and in my opinion more so than most elite QB's.

    I would still take him over many other QB's. When he is on, he is right up there with the best. And I see nothing wrong with

    stating that finding a way to minimize these "slumps" that he tends to have in many games would elevate him to an even higher level.


    Oh my goodness. So first people argue that the Elite QBs don’t miss wide open throws, make dumb mistakes, etc.


    So in response to that, people here post examples proving that’s not true. In this thread and the new thread. Okay great

    So now, instead of acknowledging that, now the argument is Russ is the only QB who may have a bad half or quarters?? So now you need evidence that Brady, Brees, and Rodgers have entire halves or games when they’ve struggled throughout their career?? And then, you use one of Wilson’s COMPLETE outlier games, the Packers NFC Championship game to prove that? So now you need examples of elite QBs throwing multiple interceptions and losing the game?? Oh lord :roll: , this is impossible LOL.





    This issue of his has been discussed here on numerous occasions for years. Not a new or changing argument at all.

    As I said in my other response, I wish both "sides" to this argument would tone it down. We don't need to bash Russ at every turn, nor do we need to go red in the face defending his every breath.

    Just let him be what he is, a good....at times GREAT QB for us who we shouldn't take for granted.
    Last edited by Hawkpower on Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    Hawkpower
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2201
    Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:53 am
    Location: Phoenix az


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:33 pm
  • Hawkpower wrote:He doesn't have to be either a top 3 QB in the league or complete trash. He is somewhere in between and thats just fine with me.


    He can be top-3 in the league, which his stats and win % suggest he most certainly is, and still have things to improve on.

    This reality seems to be the basis of most of the disagreement around here.

    I agree, people who cannot accept some of Russ's weaknesses or frustrating tendencies are annoying to converse with. But he is in the conversation of the top several QBs in the league right now. Using hard facts, like Fade did in his post is a great place to start, and maybe end the conversation.
    ____________
    BLUE and GREEN...
    User avatar
    Ad Hawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1978
    Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:25 am


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:34 pm
  • Somewhere in between is what is at issue here.

    People are very very harsh on RW. Those supporting him are not arguing if he's top 3, just that he deserves far more credit than his detractors are willing to offer.

    You are right. Yes, he's somewhere in between top 2 and top 6, depending on the day. That's "elite" if you want to define it. There are facets of his game he can improve on. Those conversations are reasonable and engaging. Really doesn't matter... the people who have come on here to hammer Wilson at every turn have left themselves no room to recover (outside TH, whom I mentioned earlier). That's why these threads exist and why the discussion is black and white now.

    They will be back in full voice at the next loss
    User avatar
    Uncle Si
    * NET Hottie *
     
    Posts: 13918
    Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:34 am


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:37 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:Somewhere in between is what is at issue here.

    People are very very harsh on RW. Those supporting him are not arguing if he's top 3, just that he deserves far more credit than his detractors are willing to offer.

    You are right. Yes, he's somewhere in between top 2 and top 6, depending on the day. That's "elite" if you want to define it. There are facets of his game he can improve on. Those conversations are reasonable and engaging. Really doesn't matter... the people who have come on here to hammer Wilson at every turn have left themselves no room to recover (outside TH, whom I mentioned earlier). That's why these threads exist and why the discussion is black and white now.

    They will be back in full voice at the next loss


    Along with the obligatory "I've been saying this since 2015..."
    GO HAWKS!!!

    Visit my Seahawks blog at 17power.blogspot.com!
    User avatar
    MontanaHawk05
    * 17Power Blogger *
     
    Posts: 16151
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:46 am


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:43 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:Somewhere in between is what is at issue here.

    People are very very harsh on RW. Those supporting him are not arguing if he's top 3, just that he deserves far more credit than his detractors are willing to offer.

    You are right. Yes, he's somewhere in between top 2 and top 6, depending on the day. That's "elite" if you want to define it. There are facets of his game he can improve on. Those conversations are reasonable and engaging. Really doesn't matter... the people who have come on here to hammer Wilson at every turn have left themselves no room to recover (outside TH, whom I mentioned earlier). That's why these threads exist and why the discussion is black and white now.

    They will be back in full voice at the next loss




    Good post and I agree with this.

    For every "harsh" critic on this board, we also have an equal number of "cheerleading" types who blow deserved criticism way out of the water.

    I guarantee you Tom Brady gets heat on the New England boards when he struggles. We know the Packer faithful deservedly ripped on Erin after his abysmal Thursday night performance.

    Russ is far from perfect. There is nothing wrong with discussing our QB's weaknesses and struggles when he has them, just as we celebrate his heroics when he single handedly brings us to victory.
    Hawkpower
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2201
    Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:53 am
    Location: Phoenix az


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:01 pm
  • The discussion by his critics often lacks any reasoning, however. And, in my opinion, its why there are so many supporters vehemently defending him.

    I dont disagree with the wilson critics when logic is applied.
    User avatar
    Uncle Si
    * NET Hottie *
     
    Posts: 13918
    Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:34 am


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:50 pm
  • QB's have ebbs and flows, teams adjust to them, then they adjust to the adjustments, then they adjust again and back and forth it goes, throw in changing out players, injuries on both sides as well as weather and you have a moving puzzle, think of it as a Rubics Cube where someone keeps changing the color on one of the squares after every move. Hard puzzle to solve completely but you keep trying and can get close.

    Elite QB's get close a lot. Those not so Elite have issues with all the adjustments and tangibles.
    Image

    To Be P/C or Not P/C That is the Question..........Seahawks kick Ass !!!!
    Check your PM's, Thank you for everything Radish RIP My Friend. :les:
    Member of the 38 club.
    User avatar
    chris98251
    .NET Hijacker
     
    Posts: 25425
    Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:52 pm
    Location: Renton Wa.


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:09 am
  • Fade wrote:
    BoltonWanderer wrote:You either didn't read or didn't understand my point.

    Firstly, it seems like you think I'm against Wilson when I'm not. I think he's elite, I love him and I want him to retire here. I wouldn't swap him for anyone else in the league and if you offered me a prime version of any active QB instead of him, the list may only be two long. I'm a huge fan of his, so what I say isn't criticism, it's an observation.

    Secondly, his record year in year out has got no bearing on what I said. As I said "he doesn't have weeks where he's poor, he just has parts of a games where he misses very easy throws", so that's my issue with his game. It's not that he has bad weeks, or even bad years which you seem to think is the only aspect of consistency, it's that when he's off form, he'll take time to settle in and then be brilliant in the fourth quarter. That's fine, we all love those comebacks, but the disparity between the fourth and the previous three is the definition of inconsistency.

    Year in year out, Wilson is consistent, there's no denying that. He's a very high level QB. Game in game out, he's consistent, but there are drives and quarters of games where he can be either unstoppable or very poor. I think that disparity in levels is more significant than any other top QB around now, including guys like Matt Ryan, even though Wilson is the far better player.

    Last year, Wilson's passer rating in the first quarter was 75.3 and in the fourth quarter, it was an astonishing 138.2. No matter which numbers you want to look at, that is inconsistency throughout a game. Consistency is averaging between 90-100 or whatever, inconsistency is going from 75.3 to 138.2.

    By the way, the fact he is capable of 138.2 is why all Seahawks fans should love him but it's utterly pointless to be biased and ignored the 75.3, we should want him to fix things that are holding him back.


    You have a distorted lens. Let me explain.

    You do not watch the other 31 teams play football consistently. You watch only the highlights of other teams, but watch Wilson's every throw.

    From that filter you rarely ever see the other QBs mistakes. Trust me they make just as many if not more. I will go into further detail in an upcoming new thread I am about to create.

    Also too Offensive Line play, and OC can raise the degree of difficulty, and can lead to inconsistencies. You are clearly not factoring that in. Russell Wilson has had the highest degree of difficulty of all of the elite QBs (which I will prove statistically) while still hanging with those guys numbers wise, it is ridiculously impressive.

    Great QBs have bad seasons, games, halves, quarters, series, plays, throws over the course of their careers. They all do actually. You're demanding the impossible. 138.2 is not a sustainable number (or thereabouts) as an expectation you should have for a QB. You can root for that outcome, trust me I do all the time, but you cannot have that as your expectation. Your'e suffering from the "Mythical Franchise QB Syndrome". He plays great all of the time, and drags scrub to avg teams kicking and screaming to Conference Championship Games. That guy doesn't exist.

    Not at all, I just want to see an end to the bad games that can cost us at vital points in the season. Wilson was atrocious in the first half against the Panthers in 2016 and whilst that deficity was clawed back in the 3rd and 4th quarter, it's very difficult to come back under those circumstances. Wilson was patchy against the Falcons in 2017 too, throwing 2 TDs and 2 INTs with a 17/30 completion ratio, and even going back to a game like the epic against Green Bay (which the Seahawks won) it's so difficult to come back from that sort of predicament.

    I suppose that's where my concern comes from, it's not that I don't rate Wilson because I think he's a brilliant QB but I do worry that these bad games are going to pop up at the wrong time. I love the team we have now and I definitely think we'll make the playoffs next year, and hopefully this one too, but when we get there, we can't have another first three quarters from Wilson that we saw on Thursday. I know that Ryan, Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Rivers, Roethlisberger etc. will be solid when they get to the playoffs but I fear that Wilson could have another game which starts off like Peterman and finishes off like prime Montana.

    For me, it's most likely a mental issue. People can mention Bevel, the previous O line, Cable etc., but he had to put up with those things in the fourth quarters too so it's not like it explains the differing levels. I think the issues are mental and when the pressure is really on, WIlson has proven to be outstanding, but we need him to be focused throughout games and perform consistently because when he is consistent, there are very, very few QBs better than him. There may not be any who are harder to stop.
    User avatar
    BoltonWanderer
    NET Bench Warmer
     
    Posts: 21
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:41 am


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:54 am
  • BoltonWanderer wrote:
    Fade wrote:
    BoltonWanderer wrote:You either didn't read or didn't understand my point.

    Firstly, it seems like you think I'm against Wilson when I'm not. I think he's elite, I love him and I want him to retire here. I wouldn't swap him for anyone else in the league and if you offered me a prime version of any active QB instead of him, the list may only be two long. I'm a huge fan of his, so what I say isn't criticism, it's an observation.

    Secondly, his record year in year out has got no bearing on what I said. As I said "he doesn't have weeks where he's poor, he just has parts of a games where he misses very easy throws", so that's my issue with his game. It's not that he has bad weeks, or even bad years which you seem to think is the only aspect of consistency, it's that when he's off form, he'll take time to settle in and then be brilliant in the fourth quarter. That's fine, we all love those comebacks, but the disparity between the fourth and the previous three is the definition of inconsistency.

    Year in year out, Wilson is consistent, there's no denying that. He's a very high level QB. Game in game out, he's consistent, but there are drives and quarters of games where he can be either unstoppable or very poor. I think that disparity in levels is more significant than any other top QB around now, including guys like Matt Ryan, even though Wilson is the far better player.

    Last year, Wilson's passer rating in the first quarter was 75.3 and in the fourth quarter, it was an astonishing 138.2. No matter which numbers you want to look at, that is inconsistency throughout a game. Consistency is averaging between 90-100 or whatever, inconsistency is going from 75.3 to 138.2.

    By the way, the fact he is capable of 138.2 is why all Seahawks fans should love him but it's utterly pointless to be biased and ignored the 75.3, we should want him to fix things that are holding him back.


    You have a distorted lens. Let me explain.

    You do not watch the other 31 teams play football consistently. You watch only the highlights of other teams, but watch Wilson's every throw.

    From that filter you rarely ever see the other QBs mistakes. Trust me they make just as many if not more. I will go into further detail in an upcoming new thread I am about to create.

    Also too Offensive Line play, and OC can raise the degree of difficulty, and can lead to inconsistencies. You are clearly not factoring that in. Russell Wilson has had the highest degree of difficulty of all of the elite QBs (which I will prove statistically) while still hanging with those guys numbers wise, it is ridiculously impressive.

    Great QBs have bad seasons, games, halves, quarters, series, plays, throws over the course of their careers. They all do actually. You're demanding the impossible. 138.2 is not a sustainable number (or thereabouts) as an expectation you should have for a QB. You can root for that outcome, trust me I do all the time, but you cannot have that as your expectation. Your'e suffering from the "Mythical Franchise QB Syndrome". He plays great all of the time, and drags scrub to avg teams kicking and screaming to Conference Championship Games. That guy doesn't exist.

    Not at all, I just want to see an end to the bad games that can cost us at vital points in the season. Wilson was atrocious in the first half against the Panthers in 2016 and whilst that deficity was clawed back in the 3rd and 4th quarter, it's very difficult to come back under those circumstances. Wilson was patchy against the Falcons in 2017 too, throwing 2 TDs and 2 INTs with a 17/30 completion ratio, and even going back to a game like the epic against Green Bay (which the Seahawks won) it's so difficult to come back from that sort of predicament.

    I suppose that's where my concern comes from, it's not that I don't rate Wilson because I think he's a brilliant QB but I do worry that these bad games are going to pop up at the wrong time. I love the team we have now and I definitely think we'll make the playoffs next year, and hopefully this one too, but when we get there, we can't have another first three quarters from Wilson that we saw on Thursday. I know that Ryan, Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Rivers, Roethlisberger etc. will be solid when they get to the playoffs but I fear that Wilson could have another game which starts off like Peterman and finishes off like prime Montana.

    For me, it's most likely a mental issue. People can mention Bevel, the previous O line, Cable etc., but he had to put up with those things in the fourth quarters too so it's not like it explains the differing levels. I think the issues are mental and when the pressure is really on, WIlson has proven to be outstanding, but we need him to be focused throughout games and perform consistently because when he is consistent, there are very, very few QBs better than him. There may not be any who are harder to stop.


    I'm not AT ALL concerned about Russ's mental state or preparation. There's a reason this offense can rise to the occasion and make it a close game (even in the worst of the CABEVELL years.) Russ has the best mental game on the field Period.

    :sarcasm_on: Well, now that you mention it. Maybe we should just look at one or two games. Based on his SB XLVIII performance, Peyton Manning is terrible and should never be considered for the hall of fame. :sarcasm_on:

    And clearly.... these 7 games are enough to prove Tom Brady should never be in the HoF right?

    https://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/nfl-worst-performances-tom-bradys-career.html/

    Image
    2018 Adopt a Rookie: Rashaad Penny

    Image
    User avatar
    Sox-n-Hawks
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2689
    Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:26 am


Re: Russ has regressed as a QB
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:56 am
  • I think some of the "fans" have regressed.
    R.I.P. THE EDGAR, YOU WILL BE MISSED......
    User avatar
    SoulfishHawk
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 10806
    Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:59 am
    Location: Sammamish, WA


Previous


It is currently Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:12 pm

Please REGISTER to become a member

Return to [ THE OFFICIAL NET NATION FAN FORUM ]




Information