MB on Pete Carroll

There's no way half the coaches in the league win the SB with that team, that's nonsense IMO and there's no way to go about supporting that claim. Carroll built the team and the culture, which was huge in getting us the win. Saying any one player had more impact on us getting that SB win is asinine.

Also, you aren't considering the other extremely talented teams that haven't won the SB - it happens every year. The Falcons massively underachieved this year, as have the Steelers the past several years. The Chargers low-key had one of the most talented rosters in the NFL and didn't even make the playoffs. The Cards were extremely talented in 2015 and got blasted way harder than we did by the Panthers. The #1 seed Cowboys couldn't win a single playoff game in 2016. There are so many examples. The point is, only one team wins the SB every season. I do agree this iteration of the seahawks underachieved, but it's not as heinous as you make it seem.

cymatica":2v4ye7xy said:

pittpnthrs":2v4ye7xy said:

jammerhawk":2v4ye7xy said:

Compared to what other team besides the Patriots?

Besides Bellichek compared to what other coach has Pete underachieved since 2010?

Who has done better than Pete over this period than BB?

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Mike McCarthy, Sean Payton, John Harbaugh, and Mike Tomlin are all coaches that have higher win percentages than Carroll that have been coaching the same team since 2010.

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How is it underachieving when Pete started from scratch, while the other coaches were already well established? Blind stats don't mean anything

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And none of those guys have more rings than Carroll either.

Fade":2mm6qh2m said:

If they still can't run the ball, and the offense is a mess, I think Pete is done here. I am honestly not concerned with W-L record in 2018. I just want to see significant progress running the football. He has had 3 yrs to build a running game, and it just keeps getting worse. They couldn't run the ball before Lynch showed up, and they can't run the ball after Lynch left.

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I'll take the wins over a good rushing game and a loss.... Some of the posts in this thread are ridiculous

Agree, Pete is far from done, and if players aren’t in with your program you move them out. Both Sherman and Bennett had reasons to support Pete but they were ‘special’ and above the team. Jeez, reading a book during a team meeting , what a direct challenge to the Coach. C’ya!

pittpnthrs":19hcjie3 said:

jammerhawk":19hcjie3 said:

Compared to what other team besides the Patriots?

Besides Bellichek compared to what other coach has Pete underachieved since 2010?

Who has done better than Pete over this period than BB?

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Mike McCarthy, Sean Payton, John Harbaugh, and Mike Tomlin are all coaches that have higher win percentages than Carroll that have been coaching the same team since 2010.

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Let's look at the performance of the teams of those coaches and Pete since 2010.

McCarthy - Green Bay
Regular Season: 83 W, 44 L, 1 T (65.2%)
Playoffs: 9 W, 6 L (60%)
- 1 Super Bowl win in 2010; no appearances since then
- Won 2 playoff games in 2016
- Inherited a team that went 4-12 the year before but had been in the playoffs each of the four years prior to that down year

Payton - New Orleans
Regular Season: 67 W, 45 L, 0 T (59.8%)
Playoffs: 3 W, 4 L (42.9%)
- Super Bowl winning team in 2009, one year before this period; no appearances since then
- Was out of the game in 2012 due to suspension

Harbaugh - Baltimore
Regular Season: 74 W, 54 L, 1 T (57.8%)
Playoffs: 7 W, 3 L (70%)
- 1 Super Bowl win in 2012; no appearances since
- Missed playoffs 4 out of the 8 years
- Inherited a team that was somewhat up and down during Billicks' tenure but had won a Super Bowl and made the playoffs in 3 other years

Tomlin - Pittsburgh
Regular Season: 85 W, 43 L, 0 T (66.41%)
Playoffs: 5 W, 6 L (45.5%)
- 1 Super Bowl win in 2008, prior to this period; no appearances since
- Missed playoffs in 2012 and 2013
- Inherited a team whose previous coach had a 62.3% winning percentage in Pittsburgh

Carroll - Seattle
Regular Season: 79 W, 48 L, 1 T (62.1%)
Playoffs: 9 W, 5 L (64.3%)
- 1 Super Bowl win in 2013; 1 near-miss in 2014
- Made the playoffs every year except 2011 and 2017
- Inherited a team that had only won 9 games over the two previous seasons and was in need of a complete rebuild
- If you remove the 2 rebuild years in 2010-2011, winning % is 68.4% in the regular season and 66.7% in the playoffs.

If Michael Bennett and Richard Sherman were 25 years old and healthy, they would still be here.

I'm not so sure a 25 year old Sherm or MB would still be on the team.

PC has shown the willingness to keep injuries players-PRich and CJ Prosise for example.

But, if you are a super talent, injuried, carrying a big contract, and is considered a cancer to the team....which both are now showing....I'm not so sure they would still be on the team. Example? Percy Harvin.

truehawksfan":3kmvnnag said:

I'm not so sure a 25 year old Sherm or MB would still be on the team.

PC has shown the willingness to keep injuries players-PRich and CJ Prosise for example.

But, if you are a super talent, injuried, carrying a big contract, and is considered a cancer to the team....which both are now showing....I'm not so sure they would still be on the team. Example? Percy Harvin.

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Those players were on rookie contracts. They also weren't in their 30s. Huge difference.

Much ado about nothing. Seahawks had to move on from old and expensive players. Said players are upset. That about covers it.
As for not throwing Bennett out of meetings for reading a book. Doubt Pete noticed, lot of players in the room and Pete is focused on what he has to say.
Seahawks are onward to trying to collect the next core group of players.

TwistedHusky":2s55zlf2 said:

He built fantastically talented team that was tremendous for 2 years but then barely was able to get to the wildcard for 3.

Makes my point. He is great at finding greatness, developing it, honing it. Not that great at using it once he has it built.

Lots of promise, some amazing flashes of greatness on the teams - but no consistency.

What Carroll does well, is put great players in a position to make plays. And he absolutely makes some players great (Browner is a good example). But with that many great players, he underachieves.

I am not saying he needs SB wins to validate what he does. But for H sake, a team with that many great players should not get absolutely run out of the building in every game past the wildcard.

His great players are slowly vanishing off the roster and he is simply not a great gameday coach. He needs a stronger roster and he will not have one.

He does less with more. But he has had a lot more 'more' on his roster to compensate for it. Now he won't.

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its less and less interesting reading you move your argument around to fit a narrative, which, at this point still isnt clear.

PC might be the most consistent coach in the NFL the last 8 years outside of the BB. Pittpnthrs tried to demonstrate otherwise and was shown wrong, and how difficult it is.

the two of you suggest anyone would've done better with a "once in a lifetime roster" and yet no other coach, despite having ridiculous rosters at some point in the careers, have done anything you would deem consistently successful. except one coach.

you misrepresent PCs strengths, and ignore what they really are while sustaining a line of thinking that contradicts from one sentence to another.

"he does less with more"... yet... built the "more"

He wont have more.. yet he's the one that created that roster to begin with..

Its shocking how easily you contradict yourself from line to line, post to post, thread to thread.

pittpnthrs":1ueelvi0 said:

Uncle Si":1ueelvi0 said:

He underachieved?

in comparison to one other program...

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He achieved the ultimate goal in winning a championship, but on the whole, I believe he underachieved. With a once in a lifetime roster (yes he deserves credit for forming it), he only managed one title. Instead of reaching the heights that many foresaw and predicted, the Seahawks became a one and done team like so many others before and after us. Sure we made the playoffs after SB49, but anybody (well most people) could see that we didn't have a legitimate chance of moving forward. Once the top tier teams came along, they pummeled us. So yes, he most certainly underachieved.

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not a legitimate chance?

based on what? the same roster you whinging about being dismantled?

The line of thinking is absurdly contradictory...

the team was one of the best in the NFL for 4 years.. went to two super bowls... won once.

however, that line up had no legitimate chance of doing it again a year or two after? they just got pummeled. if the team was so bad... why did it underachieve?

Uncle Si":w91247uc said:

pittpnthrs":w91247uc said:

Uncle Si":w91247uc said:

He underachieved?

in comparison to one other program...

Click to expand...

He achieved the ultimate goal in winning a championship, but on the whole, I believe he underachieved. With a once in a lifetime roster (yes he deserves credit for forming it), he only managed one title. Instead of reaching the heights that many foresaw and predicted, the Seahawks became a one and done team like so many others before and after us. Sure we made the playoffs after SB49, but anybody (well most people) could see that we didn't have a legitimate chance of moving forward. Once the top tier teams came along, they pummeled us. So yes, he most certainly underachieved.

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not a legitimate chance?

based on what? the same roster you whinging about being dismantled?

The line of thinking is absurdly contradictory...

the team was one of the best in the NFL for 4 years.. went to two super bowls... won once.

however, that line up had no legitimate chance of doing it again a year or two after? they just got pummeled. if the team was so bad... why did it underachieve?

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Where was I whining about the roster being dismantled? I think letting Sherman go was a mistake, but i'm not that invested in it that i'm losing sleep. Could care less about Bennett. Anyways I was basing my statement on when Carolina put the beating on us in the playoffs I knew it was officially over. Anybody thinking we were going to beat Atlanta in the playoffs the following year were fooling themselves and downright crazy. Of course we lost. The reason for it was more due to terrible coaching than anything to do with the roster. Everybody realizes how incompetent Bevell and Cable are/were and then you had Pete trying to pound round pegs into square holes with that offensive philosophy.

Look, I give Pete credit for putting together such a talented team. It was so talented that it masked poor coaching for years. A better coaching staff wins at least 3 titles with that roster. Pete and his staff underachieved. If you think he got the most out of his teams than so be it, but I dont see it that way.

MontanaHawk05":gcr52h05 said:

Cyrus12":gcr52h05 said:

All comes back to the play in sb49. It will haunt this team until there's no one left that was part of it.

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Seems to be haunting some fans, too.

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Every time the game is played one team wins and one team loses. Even the Pats lose. Get over it and get on with it.

pittpnthrs":13jmpuuh said:

Uncle Si":13jmpuuh said:

pittpnthrs":13jmpuuh said:

Uncle Si":13jmpuuh said:

He underachieved?

in comparison to one other program...

Click to expand...

He achieved the ultimate goal in winning a championship, but on the whole, I believe he underachieved. With a once in a lifetime roster (yes he deserves credit for forming it), he only managed one title. Instead of reaching the heights that many foresaw and predicted, the Seahawks became a one and done team like so many others before and after us. Sure we made the playoffs after SB49, but anybody (well most people) could see that we didn't have a legitimate chance of moving forward. Once the top tier teams came along, they pummeled us. So yes, he most certainly underachieved.

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not a legitimate chance?

based on what? the same roster you whinging about being dismantled?

The line of thinking is absurdly contradictory...

the team was one of the best in the NFL for 4 years.. went to two super bowls... won once.

however, that line up had no legitimate chance of doing it again a year or two after? they just got pummeled. if the team was so bad... why did it underachieve?

Click to expand...

Where was I whining about the roster being dismantled? I think letting Sherman go was a mistake, but i'm not that invested in it that i'm losing sleep. Could care less about Bennett. Anyways I was basing my statement on when Carolina put the beating on us in the playoffs I knew it was officially over. Anybody thinking we were going to beat Atlanta in the playoffs the following year were fooling themselves and downright crazy. Of course we lost. The reason for it was more due to terrible coaching than anything to do with the roster. Everybody realizes how incompetent Bevell and Cable are/were and then you had Pete trying to pound round pegs into square holes with that offensive philosophy.

Look, I give Pete credit for putting together such a talented team. It was so talented that it masked poor coaching for years. A better coaching staff wins at least 3 titles with that roster. Pete and his staff underachieved. If you think he got the most out of his teams than so be it, but I dont see it that way.

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The same staff with nearly the same roster that went to two consecutive Super Bowls under achieved because the same coaching staff suddenly sucked. To the degree, mind, that the same staff and roster never had a chance.

Perhaps the parity the rest of the league exists in for a reason.

You clearly have your idea of where the blame lies. Maybe the under achieving if you see it isn’t as simple as the coach. I still am shocked to hear players blame others in a game with so many moving parts. Seems fans have taken the same simplistic and narrow view.

XLIX was > than 3 years ago. The Seahawks lost when we had hope they would punch it in. In my fandom as Hawks fan I can’t ever remember being so bummed out. I still can’t watch the end of that game when our team wound up being the second best team in football. Some couldn’t let it go, I get that it it’s time to move on. The play was a mistake and all but Bevell owned up to their part in the mistake that ended a fine offensive comeback. Bevell should have been axed for throwing his players under the bus, and it may have helped heal the wound but for some it festered and now those who areN’t In are gone.

It’s going to be a different team this coming season, the division is going to be very competitive,but for those counting us out before they see the team play, they are making a mistake to underestimate The team here and the returning players from last year. Yep, there were lots of problems last year mbut two missed field goals could have had the team winning the west and finishing 11-5.

The OLine will be under different management and i’d Be surprised if it isn’t significantly better. At present we all have questions after the loss of two major players from the core and what appears to be 2 more to career ending injuries. Replacing them all won’t be easy or certain. The doom and gloom crowd want to can Pete send Schneider back to Green Bay. Because Pete couldn’t control Bennett or Sherman and encouraged the players to be themselves he’s no good. Schneider apparently can’t draft worth a lick w/o Scott McCloughan. Heavens this is a negative viewpoint, but if you are into it enjoy your misery, You will find others to keep you company and you can write about how the FO has underachieved, etc., etc..

For me I will wait and watch the draft and see what type of team hits the field for the 2018 season. To me as well I remain a believer in this FO who has done things better than they have ever been done here before. We all need to be patient. I do understand though why Bennett was traded and why Sherman was released. I expect more players from the core to be gone eventually like Avril and eventually Chancellor these losses suck but changes happen with football and injuries are inevitable as is aging out.

I’m curious how Schneider will wiggle around to acquire more picks in the draft. One step at a time. I am keeping the faith.

Kam would have never been a Safety, Sherman would never have been drafted and given a chance ton play CB if even picked up as a WR. We would have seen no Clemens and Bryant as a Leo. The vison was great in the beginning, another coaching staff would have never used these guys the way they were used.

The problem was the patting themselves on the back and thinking they could work miracles with every player I think became a issue and we lost focus on what we were doing after the league began to copy cat us on size and speed and we never adjusted and were looking at bargains all the time.

hawknation2018":3jij1s2d said:

Popeyejones":3jij1s2d said:

IrishNW":3jij1s2d said:

Pete's loyalty is his biggest flaw as a coach

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He fired his coordinators and is shipping off his All Pros. I don't think loyalty is his issue.

I don't want to excuse Bennett for doing this or for talking about it publicly, but it is yet another indication of what PC's biggest flaw is as a HC IMO:

He just errs very far to the "let the players be themselves"/"anything goes" side of the leadership equation, and has never seemed to have any desire to balance that "loving mother" style out with "stern father" moments. That works perfectly fine when everything is working, but when things get more challenging everything implodes.

I mean yeah, that Bennett is reading a book while his coach is conducting a team meeting doesn't look good for Bennett, but it's insane that he didn't get kicked out of the meeting and chewed out the first time he tried to pull that stunt. Essentially, from P.C. Bennett learned that he could completely disregard his coach when he felt like it without any consequences.

And Seahawks players over the years have learned that lesson over and over again: If guys are getting in fist fights with each other on the sidelines without consequences, pushing their coaches without consequences, telling national reporters they're going to turn them into their prostitutes without consequences, sitting their reading a book while the coach is addressing the room without consequences, taking dumb penalties all the time without consequences, pretending to to take a sh!t in the endzone without consequences, criticizing each other in the media without consequences, and so on, and so on, and so on, you have made it clear to everyone that they can practically do whatever they want without any repercussions.

I sincerely don't know if PC knows this or not, but if he's jettisoning vet All Pros under the belief that they're just bad seeds and he needs to get them out of there to get the ship back in order, that's a huge mistake. His leadership style creates a lack of accountability, and if he doesn't change that or balance out more he's just going to be restarting with (what are very likely going to be less talented) younger players who will come in and learn all the same lessons and over time in the aggregate have all the same problems.

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This shows a real ignorance of Pete Carroll's coaching philosophy.

Also, Bennett & Sherman were let go because they are old . . . not because they are "bad seeds."

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Probably is far more accurate view of Carroll than you think.

You have two star players call out their former coach, so this isn't far fetched.

Let's just say this:

You'll never hear it from Wilson.

Two players who were let go because they are old and injured. No hard feelings.

Who cares what Michael Bennett thinks? He is a horrible person! He was even sued by a dog boarder for abandoning his puppy in Tampa when he was signed by the Seahawks. He never went back for it! This to go along with the rest of his off the field crap and it doesn't include his continual offside penalties. I've never been so happy to see any player off our roster!

chris98251":3my34lrz said:

Kam would have never been a Safety, Sherman would never have been drafted and given a chance ton play CB if even picked up as a WR. We would have seen no Clemens and Bryant as a Leo. The vison was great in the beginning, another coaching staff would have never used these guys the way they were used.

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You might be limiting your comments to the defense, but I doubt any other coach in the league starts Russell Wilson over Matt Flynn.